Why'd Hillary, Biden and Dodd vote against Democratic efforts to prohibit cluster bombing civilians?

Source: http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00232

I've almost come to expect such votes from Hillary and Biden, but why Dodd?

Probably because they saw a bad amendment, but passed THIS bill;



H.R.5631
Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 2007 (Enrolled as Agreed to or Passed by Both House and Senate)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Beginning
DIVISION A--DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE APPROPRIATIONS ACT, 2007
TITLE I
Reserve Personnel, Navy
Reserve Personnel, Air Force
National Guard Personnel, Air Force
TITLE II
United States Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces
Overseas Humanitarian, Disaster, and Civic Aid
Former Soviet Union Threat Reduction Account
TITLE III
Missile Procurement, Army
Shipbuilding and Conversion, Navy
Procurement of Ammunition, Air Force
National Guard and Reserve Equipment
Defense Production Act Purchases
TITLE IV
Research, Development, Test and Evaluation, Army
Operational Test and Evaluation, Defense
TITLE V
REVOLVING AND MANAGEMENT FUNDS
Defense Working Capital Funds
National Defense Sealift Fund
Pentagon Reservation Maintenance Revolving Fund
TITLE VI
Chemical Agents and Munitions Destruction, Army
Office of the Inspector General
TITLE VII
Central Intelligence Agency Retirement and Disability System Fund
TITLE VIII
(RESCISSIONS)
TITLE IX
ADDITIONAL APPROPRIATIONS
MILITARY PERSONNEL
Military Personnel, Army
Military Personnel, Navy
Military Personnel, Marine Corps
Military Personnel, Air Force
Reserve Personnel, Army
Reserve Personnel, Marine Corps
National Guard Personnel, Army
OPERATION AND MAINTENANCE
Operation and Maintenance, Army
Operation and Maintenance, Navy
Operation and Maintenance, Marine Corps
Operation and Maintenance, Air Force
Operation and Maintenance, Defense-Wide
Operation and Maintenance, Army Reserve
Operation and Maintenance, Navy Reserve
Operation and Maintenance, Marine Corps Reserve
Operation and Maintenance, Air Force Reserve
Operation and Maintenance, Army National Guard
Operation and Maintenance, Air National Guard
Iraq Freedom Fund
Afghanistan Security Forces Fund
Iraq Security Forces Fund
Joint Improvised Explosive Device Defeat Fund
PROCUREMENT
Aircraft Procurement, Army
Procurement of Weapons and Tracked Combat Vehicles, Army
Procurement of Ammunition, Army
Other Procurement, Army
Aircraft Procurement, Navy
Weapons Procurement, Navy
Procurement of Ammunition, Navy and Marine Corps
Other Procurement, Navy
Procurement, Marine Corps
Aircraft Procurement, Air Force
Missile Procurement, Air Force
Other Procurement, Air Force
Procurement, Defense-Wide
RESEARCH, DEVELOPMENT, TEST AND EVALUATION
Research, Development, Test and Evaluation, Navy
Research, Development, Test and Evaluation, Air Force
Research, Development, Test and Evaluation, Defense-Wide
OTHER DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE PROGRAMS
Drug Interdiction and Counter-Drug Activities, Defense
RELATED AGENCIES
Intelligence Community Management Account
GENERAL PROVISIONS
(TRANSFER OF FUNDS)
(INCLUDING TRANSFER OF FUNDS)
TITLE X
FISCAL YEAR 2006 WILDLAND FIRE EMERGENCY APPROPRIATIONS
DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
Bureau of Land Management
DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Forest Service
WILDLAND FIRE MANAGEMENT
DIVISION B--CONTINUING APPROPRIATIONS RESOLUTION, 2007


http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c109:7:./temp/~c109zo92zl::



OBVIOUSLY, they didn't agree on the first amendment!!!! Which the vote was 70/30.
You can read the text of it here;





Get a fucking life, will ya.

If you read the amendment, it would have been VERY cost prohibitive, and her amendment, made NO provision for it;



"The Pentagon has argued that adding this device is cost prohibitive. And it may well be.

The amendment of Senator Leahy and myself does not address this issue."


So, maybe Feinstein needs to get her shit together before she submits a BAD, half-assed amendment.

Oh, and another thing, this had nothing to do with US "bombing" anyone. It specifically was to address all of the unspent ammunitions in particular parts of the world.

Baucus is the head of the Finance committee and is extremely well known as a Democratic fiscal conservative. Cluster bombs kill long after wars are over. They also look like toys, thus attracting children.

from the shit stirrer, that gets way more attention than it deserves.

Your post proves nothing about the amendment and your link doesn't work.

Part of the reason given by Clinton had to do with Israel using them in Lebanon. (Yeah, I know that's a bad reason) Dodd represents Connecticut - so his reason may have been the same. Here is the roll call - it was 70-30 as you said. Look at the yeas - they are basically the normal good guys. AIPAC may have been the reason behind Schumer, Clinton, Dodd and Lautenberg.

Grouped By Vote Position
YEAs ---30
Akaka (D-HI)
Baucus (D-MT)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Byrd (D-WV)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Carper (D-DE)
Conrad (D-ND)
Dayton (D-MN)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Harkin (D-IA)
Jeffords (I-VT)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Kohl (D-WI)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murray (D-WA)
Obama (D-IL)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Sarbanes (D-MD)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Wyden (D-OR)
NAYs ---70
Alexander (R-TN)
Allard (R-CO)
Allen (R-VA)
Bayh (D-IN)
Bennett (R-UT)
Biden (D-DE)
Bond (R-MO)
Brownback (R-KS)
Bunning (R-KY)
Burns (R-MT)
Burr (R-NC)
Chafee (R-RI)
Chambliss (R-GA)
Clinton (D-NY)
Coburn (R-OK)
Cochran (R-MS)
Coleman (R-MN)
Collins (R-ME)
Cornyn (R-TX)
Craig (R-ID)
Crapo (R-ID)
DeMint (R-SC)
DeWine (R-OH)
Dodd (D-CT)
Dole (R-NC)
Domenici (R-NM)
Ensign (R-NV)
Enzi (R-WY)
Frist (R-TN)
Graham (R-SC)
Grassley (R-IA)
Gregg (R-NH)
Hagel (R-NE)
Hatch (R-UT)
Hutchison (R-TX)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Inouye (D-HI)
Isakson (R-GA)
Kyl (R-AZ)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Lieberman (D-CT)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Lott (R-MS)
Lugar (R-IN)
Martinez (R-FL)
McCain (R-AZ)
McConnell (R-KY)
Murkowski (R-AK)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Pryor (D-AR)
Roberts (R-KS)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Salazar (D-CO)
Santorum (R-PA)
Schumer (D-NY)
Sessions (R-AL)
Shelby (R-AL)
Smith (R-OR)
Snowe (R-ME)
Specter (R-PA)
Stevens (R-AK)
Sununu (R-NH)
Talent (R-MO)
Thomas (R-WY)
Thune (R-SD)
Vitter (R-LA)
Voinovich (R-OH)
Warner (R-VA)

YEAs ---30 (All Dems)

Akaka (D-HI)
Baucus (D-MT)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Byrd (D-WV)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Carper (D-DE)
Conrad (D-ND)
Dayton (D-MN)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Harkin (D-IA)
Jeffords (I-VT)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Kohl (D-WI)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murray (D-WA)
Obama (D-IL)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Sarbanes (D-MD)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Wyden (D-OR)

NAYs ---70

Alexander (R-TN)
Allard (R-CO)
Allen (R-VA)
Bayh (D-IN)
Bennett (R-UT)
Biden (D-DE)
Bond (R-MO)
Brownback (R-KS)
Bunning (R-KY)
Burns (R-MT)
Burr (R-NC)
Chafee (R-RI)
Chambliss (R-GA)
Clinton (D-NY)
Coburn (R-OK)
Cochran (R-MS)
Coleman (R-MN)
Collins (R-ME)
Cornyn (R-TX)
Craig (R-ID)
Crapo (R-ID)
DeMint (R-SC)
DeWine (R-OH)
Dodd (D-CT)
Dole (R-NC)
Domenici (R-NM)
Ensign (R-NV)
Enzi (R-WY)
Frist (R-TN)
Graham (R-SC)
Grassley (R-IA)
Gregg (R-NH)
Hagel (R-NE)
Hatch (R-UT)
Hutchison (R-TX)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Inouye (D-HI)
Isakson (R-GA)
Kyl (R-AZ)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Lieberman (D-CT)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Lott (R-MS)
Lugar (R-IN)
Martinez (R-FL)
McCain (R-AZ)
McConnell (R-KY)
Murkowski (R-AK)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Pryor (D-AR)
Roberts (R-KS)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Salazar (D-CO)
Santorum (R-PA)
Schumer (D-NY)
Sessions (R-AL)
Shelby (R-AL)
Smith (R-OR)
Snowe (R-ME)
Specter (R-PA)
Stevens (R-AK)
Sununu (R-NH)
Talent (R-MO)
Thomas (R-WY)
Thune (R-SD)
Vitter (R-LA)
Voinovich (R-OH)
Warner (R-VA)


The original appropriations bill was passed without the cluster bombs amendment which read



I'm not sure how that could be read as a "bad amendment".

and Hillary needs the NY Jewish vote and possible VP candidates don't want to piss her off.

Kennedy, Kerry, Feingold, Wyden, Harkin, Obama, Mikulski... many senators support the cluster bomb legislation. Money is not a reason to oppose cleaning up weapons around the world.

israel's military did a complete and fair investigation of the Israeli military and found that their use of 4 million cluster bombs on civilian, heavily populated, and innocent lebanese towns and cities was not just justified, but a great defensive move.

so that answers that question.

I cannot believe how craven and ball-less the US has been on the cluster bomb issue. gawd, have we lost all sense of civility, morals, ethics and honor? Apparently, when Israel is involved.

that was easy.

Senator Biden:

"Mr. President, I share the concerns that prompted the introduction of this amendment, but I am not prepared to approve a far reaching measure without a clear legislative record regarding the need for it and its likely impact on U.S. and allied forces.

Clusterbombs have always posed problems for responsible military forces like those of the United States.
The weapons are very useful militarily, but they also carry a real risk of causing civilian casualties if they are used where civilians are present or if too many submunitions fail to explode when they hit the ground. This is a legitimate issue to consider and, perhaps legislate.
But it should be done in a careful manner, after holding hearings and with proper preparation.

I urge the Senate Armed Services Committee to hold hearings on the issue of cluster munitions so that we can all gain a better understanding of how to maintain their usefullness while maintaining their risks.

The committe should also make sure the Defense Department lives up to its claim that it "is working towards minimizing "dud" cluster munitions by phasing cluster munitions systems with more reliable or self-destructing fuzes" Success in that effort would go far to reduce the risks of postwar casulties.

I yield back the balance of my time"

Joe Biden September 06, 2006

That's WHY! And your FALSE assertion that Biden or Clinton and Dodd voted against the prohibiting of civilians getting clusterbombed is garbage! Next question!

I have been unable to get to Joe's Senate site to see his floor statement on this. As always, he had a rational reason for not agreeing to the terms of the amendment!!!!!!!



!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is utterly meaningless politico-speak.

And the purpose is clearly stated: "To protect civilian lives from unexploded cluster munitions."

Look at the company Biden and the others are in - all those Rs, and the likes of Lieberman. Look at the "yeas" - Kerry, Boxer, Kennedy, etc.

But this vote is to be excused because...because....because....?

transfers of weapons without a guarantee from the DoD that the weapons will not be used in or near any civilian concentration. AND THEY SHOULDN'T BE!
It's bad enough that they gotta be used at all, and I'm sick to death and fxxxxx repulsed by the term "Collateral Damage" even if Pat Leahy says it.

But, any amendment, from either minority or majority member, concerning a complex military restriction getting passed before being fully scrutinized in the very least by the Senate Armed Services Committee, besides other committees as well, and without full debate on the floor,is inept and damn well foolish.

And also, regarding some of Biden's other "drivel" which included making sure that the DoD kept their word concerning the utilization of self-destructing fuzzes. Oddly enough, in light of the this amendments stated PURPOSE: "To Protect Civilian Lives From Unexploded Clustermunitions" Senator Feinstein admitted that even though there are steps to take to ensure a failure rate of less than 1%, her amendment did not address the issue.

Joe Biden needs no excuse for thought out reasoning.

Cluster bombs have been used by the US since Vietnam.

They are not specifically against international law, but there are many who feel that they fail this test:

"The Geneva Conventions hold that when choosing which targets to hit and which weapons to use, armies must make sure they do not "cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering" and ensure that the harm to civilians does not outweigh the military advantages."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-12-10-cluster-bomb-cover_x.htm

Note that Kerry and Harkin who actually served voted for it.

too much time in the Senate.

that's why he's gotten so much done in his carrer.....just a wild guess.

It seems "let's hold hearings" is the currently popular means of dodging an issue.

of Senators Kerry and Harkin's service, and that they voted for it.
Just as I did Senators Lautenberg's service and Senator Inouye, a Medal of Honor winner, who did not......go fiqure!