So what change are we talking about? What goals? What vision?

I'm talking about Obama. I've listened and I've watched. I like his bravado, his confidence, and charisma. I even like his message of hope and dreams, though some would consider it to be fluff.

I'm a dreamer myself. I'm a Utopian. I'm even foolish enough to support Dennis Kucinich in the face of all odds. I want change. I want to believe. Right now, I want what John Edwards is offering.

But back to Obama. So tell me, please, what exactly is Obama's big dream? What is his vision? What is his goal? Is it just to be President, or does he want to do something once he gets there? Is the election of a minority enough of a statement, or do we have bigger goals?

I listened to last night's speech with a very open mind. I was willing to embrace him, but wanted just a little piece of something I could stand on, cling to, hold, and feel. What I found out is that his only tangible goal, promise, or vision is to make health care a little less expensive for some families.

Are you fucking kidding me? Health care is a human right in any prosperous country. What about helping families with day care? What about lowering the cost of college education? What about ending the war immediately? What about going after the war criminals who have taken over this country?

Please tell me why I'm wrong about this conclusion. Give me something tangible! Anybody!

(on edit: all he seems to offer are cliches...it is driving me crazy)

Apparently he wants to move us away from division and toward addition.

Look at who the big campaign contributors are. They are going to want favors for their cash. That puts Barack in a compromising position to make any meaningful change. These big corporations with all the cash have been making a fortune with current policies. They are not going to want changes.

Follow the money trail...it always exposes the truth.

-- I would even say the recent success of his political career is based on his incredibly inspiring 2004 Democratic Convention speech -- but when you look for the "there" there, there is no "there" there! A well-delivered speech and a dream where we all work together are NOT going to be the things that solve the immense problems ** is leaving us with. I hope I'm wrong, but his low-rent MLK impersonation may not fool all of the people all of the time.

what Obama's position is on NAFTA. I know very well what Edwards' position is, and it is the same as mine.

It was a moment to inspire, not to be a policy wonk.

If he HAS any plans other than vague feel-good slogans like "change".

Edwards has plenty of position papers and specific items on his website. So does Kucinich.

health care plan. He has sponsored legislation concerning transparency against pork, and ethics reform. He has presented an energy plan. He has presented his foreign policy. If you don't bother to listen when he presents this information ALL CAMPAIGN LONG, I can't help you. I WILL tell you that Dems, Repubs, Indies, and the whole WORLD were watching him last night, and he wasn't about to discuss how many brigades he would withdraw from Iraq each month, or his specific energy proposals, or numbers-crunching. His speech was no different than Hillary's or Edwards', in that they didn't go into policy specifics either--but he gave us his vision, and it wasn't limited to the Dem platform laundry list, like theirs. There is a time and a place for policy--a victory speech is a time to inspire on a grand scale.

i don't want to hear anymore "abstract" or grandiose ideas. i want facts. i want information. and face it, he isn't giving any. he doesn't inspire me with his vagueness. i want to get involved in a candidate with concrete ideas ... one i can get behind. one i can fight for. obama is not it.

But I'm not even hearing that. :-/

Then you can do the same with Edwards speech from that eve. Show me what his goals and visions are. And how he plans to achieve them.
Thanks! :hi:
------------------------
Thank you, Iowa.

You know, they said this day would never come. They said our sights were set too high. They said this country was too divided, too disillusioned to ever come together around a common purpose.

But on this January night, at this defining moment in history, you have done what the cynics said we couldn't do.

You have done what the state of New Hampshire can do in five days. You have done what America can do in this new year, 2008.

In lines that stretched around schools and churches, in small towns and in big cities, you came together as Democrats, Republicans and independents, to stand up and say that we are one nation. We are one people. And our time for change has come.

You said the time has come to move beyond the bitterness and pettiness and anger that's consumed Washington.

To end the political strategy that's been all about division, and instead make it about addition. To build a coalition for change that stretches through red states and blue states.

Because that's how we'll win in November, and that's how we'll finally meet the challenges that we face as a nation.

We are choosing hope over fear.

We're choosing unity over division, and sending a powerful message that change is coming to America.

You said the time has come to tell the lobbyists who think their money and their influence speak louder than our voices that they don't own this government -- we do. And we are here to take it back.

The time has come for a president who will be honest about the choices and the challenges we face, who will listen to you and learn from you, even when we disagree, who won't just tell you what you want to hear, but what you need to know.

And in New Hampshire, if you give me the same chance that Iowa did tonight, I will be that president for America.

I'll be a president who finally makes health care affordable and available to every single American, the same way I expanded health care in Illinois, by...

... by bringing Democrats and Republicans together to get the job done. I'll be a president who ends the tax breaks for companies that ship our jobs overseas and put a middle-class tax cut into the pockets of working Americans who deserve it.

I'll be a president who harnesses the ingenuity of farmers and scientists and entrepreneurs to free this nation from the tyranny of oil once and for all.

And I'll be a president who ends this war in Iraq and finally brings our troops home...

... who restores our moral standing, who understands that 9/11 is not a way to scare up votes but a challenge that should unite America and the world against the common threats of the 21st century.

Common threats of terrorism and nuclear weapons, climate change and poverty, genocide and disease.
Tonight, we are one step closer to that vision of America because of what you did here in Iowa.

And so I'd especially like to thank the organizers and the precinct captains, the volunteers and the staff who made this all possible.

And while I'm at it on thank yous, I think it makes sense for me to thank the love of my life, the rock of the Obama family, the closer on the campaign trail.

Give it up for Michelle Obama.

I know you didn't do this for me. You did this -- you did this because you believed so deeply in the most American of ideas -- that in the face of impossible odds, people who love this country can change it.

I know this. I know this because while I may be standing here tonight, I'll never forget that my journey began on the streets of Chicago doing what so many of you have done for this campaign and all the campaigns here in Iowa, organizing and working and fighting to make people's lives just a little bit better.

I know how hard it is. It comes with little sleep, little pay and a lot of sacrifice. There are days of disappointment. But sometimes, just sometimes, there are nights like this; a night that, years from now, when we've made the changes we believe in, when more families can afford to see a doctor, when our children -- when Malia and Sasha and your children inherit a planet that's a little cleaner and safer, when the world sees America differently, and America sees itself as a nation less divided and more united, you'll be able to look back with pride and say that this was the moment when it all began.

This was the moment when the improbable beat what Washington always said was inevitable.

This was the moment when we tore down barriers that have divided us for too long; when we rallied people of all parties and ages to a common cause; when we finally gave Americans who have never participated in politics a reason to stand up and to do so.

This was the moment when we finally beat back the policies of fear and doubts and cynicism, the politics where we tear each other down instead of lifting this country up. This was the moment.

Years from now, you'll look back and you'll say that this was the moment, this was the place where America remembered what it means to hope. For many months, we've been teased, even derided for talking about hope. But we always knew that hope is not blind optimism. It's not ignoring the enormity of the tasks ahead or the roadblocks that stand in our path.

It's not sitting on the sidelines or shirking from a fight. Hope is that thing inside us that insists, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that something better awaits us if we have the courage to reach for it and to work for it and to fight for it.

Hope is what I saw in the eyes of the young woman in Cedar Rapids who works the night shift after a full day of college and still can't afford health care for a sister who's ill. A young woman who still believes that this country will give her the chance to live out her dreams.

Hope is what I heard in the voice of the New Hampshire woman who told me that she hasn't been able to breathe since her nephew left for Iraq. Who still goes to bed each night praying for his safe return.

Hope is what led a band of colonists to rise up against an empire. What led the greatest of generations to free a continent and heal a nation. What led young women and young men to sit at lunch counters and brave fire hoses and march through Selma and Montgomery for freedom's cause.

Hope -- hope is what led me here today. With a father from Kenya, a mother from Kansas and a story that could only happen in the United States of America.

Hope is the bedrock of this nation. The belief that our destiny will not be written for us, but by us, by all those men and women who are not content to settle for the world as it is, who have the courage to remake the world as it should be.

That is what we started here in Iowa and that is the message we can now carry to New Hampshire and beyond.

The same message we had when we were up and when we were down; the one that can save this country, brick by brick, block by block, (inaudible) that together, ordinary people can do extraordinary things.

Because we are not a collection of red states and blue states. We are the United States of America. And in this moment, in this election, we are ready to believe again.

Thank you, Iowa.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/politics/ny-usobam0105-transcript,0,7073760.story?page=2

I won't make you wade through all the fluff.

The reason we don't have health care for all is because of big insurance companies. The reason we don't have alternative energy is big oil companies, etc., etc.

The primary problem in this country is a corporate-controlled government. Corporate greed is the problem.

You can dance around all that other nonsense...but if you aren't willing to address the core problem, fundamental change cannot happen.

The other candidates are just wrong about the problems and wrong about the solutions. Edwards is right.

all of that.

Just do it. It's only fair.

I'll be waiting.

Also, while you are it, please underline the part where he thanks his supporters, and his staff and things.

Thanks. :hi:

But I don't think it was as effective as if you had just said something tangible about him. Because it isn't so effective, I decided not to do it.

But trust me, I do feel a little guilty that you went to all that work. :-)

And let you know that there isn't anymore substance there as you feel was missing in Obama's.
Edwards doesn't in any say how goals will be achieved other than people standing up and being willing. Doh.

He enumerates a list of what is wrong with the country (which is not a goal nor a solution....it's what we all already know - and at least Obama mentions Iraq, for goodness sakes!). I see much time spent on stories aimed at tugging on the heart strings trial attorney style, but I don't see where we are told how his goals will be accomplished opther than folks standing, speaking, being willing, and having hope and change.

So please enlighten me. I'm curious based on my reading both speeches why you find Edwards so superior. Even Edwards delivery as he toyed with the twin microphone was substandard compared to Obama's oratory delivery.
--------------------------

Thank you. Thank you.
The one thing that’s clear from the results in Iowa tonight is the status quo lost and change won.

And now we move on. We move on from Iowa to New Hampshire and to the other states to determine who’s best suited to bring about the change that this country so desperately needed. Because what we’ve seen here in Iowa is we’ve seen two candidates who thought their money would make them inevitable. But what the Iowa caucus-goers have shown, is if you’re willing to have a little backbone, to have a little courage, to speak for the middle class, to speak for those who have no voice.

If you’re willing -- if you’re willing to stand up to corporate greed, that message and the American people are unstoppable. No matter how much money is spent, no matter how much. And we are so proud of this cause.

But I want all of us to remember tonight while we’re having all these political celebrations, that just a few weeks ago in America, Nataline Sarkisian (ph), a 17- year-old girl who had a -- needed a liver transplant, and whose insurance company decided they wouldn’t pay for her liver transplant operation.

Finally, her nurses spoke up on her behalf. Her doctors spoke up on her behalf. Ultimately, the American people spoke up on her behalf by marching and picketing in front of her health insurance carrier. And, finally, the insurance carrier caved in and agreed to pay for her operation. And when they notified the family just a few hours later, she died. She lost her life. Why? Why?

James Lowe was born 51 years ago in the United States of America with a severe cleft palate, which kept him from being able to speak. And he lived for 50 years in the greatest, most prosperous nation on the planet, not able to speak because he didn’t have health-care coverage and couldn’t pay for a simple operation. Why?

Doug Bishop, who’s actually behind me tonight, Doug and his family worked at the Maytag plant in Newton -- Newton, Iowa. For generations, for generations, they worked. They sacrificed. They did everything you’re supposed to do in America. And then recently, this plant closed. And the jobs went overseas. Why? The reason is because corporate greed has got a stranglehold on America. And unless and until we have a president in the proud tradition of Teddy Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman, who has a little backbone, who has some strength, who has some fight, who’s willing to stand up to these people, nothing will change.

We will never have the America that all of us dream of. The promise of America, which has been available to so many of us, will not be available to our children and our grandchildren. And I take this very personally.

I watched my grandmother, who I loved dearly, work year after year after year in the mills. And we lived in the same neighborhood. She would cook for us, leave the house, walk her way to the mill, work her shift, and come back home and take care of us again.

My grandfather, who was partially paralyzed, would go to work the graveyard shift in that mill and come back in the morning, when we’d have breakfast together.

My father, who’s here with me tonight, worked 36 years in the mills -- hard, tedious work; hard, tedious work. Why did he do it? Why did he struggle and sacrifice? Why did your parents and grandparents struggle and sacrifice? They did it so that you could have a better life. My parents did it so that I could have a better life.

And we, all of us to whom the torch has been passed, we carry an enormous responsibility. And that responsibility transcends politics and transcends elections. It’s our responsibility to ensure that we leave America better than we found it; that we give our children a better life than we’ve had.

And this is what I see in America today. I see an America where last year, the CEO of one of the largest health insurance companies in America made hundreds of millions of dollars -- in one year.

I see an America where ExxonMobil’s (NYSE:XOM) profits were $40 billion just a couple of years ago. Record amounts -- record profits.

All of that happening at the same time that this picture of America emerges. Tonight, 47 million Americans will go to bed knowing that if their child gets sick, they’ll have to go to the emergency room and beg for health care. Tomorrow morning, women will go to their doctor and be diagnosed with breast cancer, just like Elizabeth was. But unlike Elizabeth, they’ll have no health care coverage. And as a result, they know that they can’t go to the emergency room and get chemotherapy. What are they supposed to do? What are they supposed to do? You can literally see the fear and terror in their eyes.

Tomorrow morning, 37 million of our own people will wake up literally worried about feeding and clothing their own children. I went to a shelter here in Des Moines just a few weeks ago, where they took single moms with their children who had no place to live. And I said: Do you ever have to turn people away? Yes, a few months ago, they had to turn 70 to 75 families away in one month. And I said: These are moms with kids -- yes -- some of them with three or four children. And I said: Well, where did they go when you sent them away? They went back to the street, back to their homes. Thirty-five million people in America went hungry last year in the richest nation on the planet.


And tonight, 200,000 men and women who wore our uniform proudly and served this country courageously as veterans will go to sleep under bridges and on grates. We’re better than this. The United States of America’s better than this. And what happened tonight is the Iowa caucus-goers said, we want something different. We are going to stand up, we are going to rise up, we’re going to create an America that all of us believe in.

Because the truth is, when we speak up, when we speak up for James Lowe and the millions like him who live in the darkness, when we speak up against corporate greed and for the 37 million Americans who live in poverty, when we speak up for single moms who have no place to live with their children, when we speak up for hundreds of thousands of veterans who served this country proudly and are homeless with no place to live at night, when we do that together, as a nation -- and Iowa caucus-goers did it tonight -- when we do it, America’s a better place.

It says something about who we are. It says something about our character. Because when we do, America rises up. America becomes what it’s capable of being. And what began -- and it is not over -- what began tonight in the heartland of America is the Iowa caucus- goers said: Enough is enough. We are better than this. We are going to bring the change that this country needs.


And you have created and started a wave of change, a tidal wave of change that will travel from here to New Hampshire to Nevada to South Carolina, all across this country.

Because we know the torch has been passed to us. We stand proudly on the shoulders of our parents and grandparents and all those generations who came before us. And we take our responsibility seriously.

And this tidal wave of change that began tonight in Iowa and that will sweep across America, when that wave is finished, when it is done, every one of us are going to be able to look our children in the eye and say, we did what our parents did for us and what our grandparents did for us. Which is: We left America better than we found it, and we gave our children a better life than we had.

That’s what this is about. That’s what this change is about.

Continue on. This march of change continues on. God bless you. Thank you for everything you’ve done. Stay with us in this fight. We are in this fight together. Thank you.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/03/us/politics/03edwards-transcript.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

that's a fucking laundry list of what's wrong. How is that substance? Because someone mentions the problems? I think it is the solutions that we want to hear about, isn't it? How will the politician talking make the solutions happen. What will be the tools used to affect these changes? That's what makes us vote on an individual...what they will do to SOLVE the problems. We know the problems exist. That's elementary. The substance is not so much in identifying the problems, cause that's the easy part.....it's coming up with how these problems will be made to go away.

I'm starting to believe that fewer people than I though actually read anything much on this forum....and as long as they hear a word here or there like "Corporate Greed" or "Poor people"....that buy into having heard leadership solutions on those topics.

Your problem is that I'm not stupid.......

Don't be intellectually lazy....that Is the main reason we are still dealing with Hillary as a candidate.

Anyone who claims Obama is all style over substance has clearly not read his books.

What I learned from reading Obama's books is that he's a progressive, is extremely intelligent and politically skilled, and has the ability to lead. He's not someone who would be manipulated or obstructed by the media. (When a media person asks him a twisted question, he not only answers it clearly but also points out the problem with the question and criticizes the questioner for spinning the issue.)

next, maybe some prayer over wombs.

Doesn't Hillary believe in God? I mean, it is Bill Clinton who installed "Ask but don't tell", a policy that to this day is thought about while we scratch our ass and try to figure out what happened. Was it fear of the Repugs that made them do that? :shrug:

How much of a hypocrite does one have to be before being called out on it? I normally wouldn't bother with Hillary.....but today, the number of folks that think that they can say anything and get away with it is at its peak! Homie (that would be me) don't play that!

my disgust with DOMA, "don't ask, don't tell" (a mistaken compromise and attempt to find common ground with bigots), and any ex-gays doing her work. I don't think my candidate walks on water.

certainly no worse than your candidate on the issue that you are speaking about in a thread?

This thread ain't limited to criticizing Obama. Did you lose your marbles when Hillary came in third?

(Thinking to myself, and typing as I do....I can barely fucking believe the dumb shit I'm reading in this thread....it's like dealing with a bunch of kids who are jealous that they didn't get as many presents as their sibling. really sorry :eyes: )

I am not emotionally tied to my candidate to the point that I will excuse bigotry and tell members of another minority to shut up and sit down.

You excuse warmongering, but can't excuse bigotry by the association of one person. Guess that makes things really neat and clean for you mind, now doesn't it.

(unfuckingbelievable)

I don't like his pandering to bigots to garner votes. His fans have no problem with this "common ground" approach. I am sure it is not important to them....since they are grown ups.

Are silly are you?

Now you are back to "don't ask don't tell" stupidity.

This is crazy!

OMG!

I only hear platitudes from the man, lots of repetition of certain key words: "change", "vision", "audacity of hope", not going back to the 90s (yeah because the 90s were sooo bad for the nation), not fighting the same fights we've been fighting since the 60s (buddy, if it wasn't for the 60s and the civil rights movement you wouldn't be able to be running for president). But hey, let's all drink the Kool-Aid and vote for the kumbaya candidate.

Why should experience, gravitas and actual solutions to problems be taken into consideration when choosing the person who will lead us for the next 4 years??


:crazy:

But I don't think you're interested.

Let me get Hillary's fucking speech posted up here, and let's see how many times she talk about change, yadda, yadda.

Just pass by the potatoes and get to the meat of matters.

HOW and WHAT are you gonna change?
WHAT are the sources of problems for the middle class and HOW do you expect to intend them?

One speech does not a president make.

Just like Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi, only more submissively and with lots more butt-cream to make it easier to handle.

Oh goody!

Can't we all just get along with the nice, honest, hard-working Republicans? Can't we all just set aside the vitriol and partisanship and civil rights and just bend over like nice, HOPEFUL people to make it easier for the giant corporations like News Corp, Chevron, GE and Halliburton and Cigna to screw us into dirt? If you'll just sit down and shake hands and LISTEN to the corporations, you'll see that they can be very reasonable and HOPEFUL.

What is wrong with you? Why are you asking these questions? Why can't you just be happy with clichés and speeches about how we'll all pull together?

Can't you live on HOPE? Can't you dine on POSITIVE WORDS? Why can't you be more AUDACIOUS? The sweet, honest Republicans, the well-meaning Beltway insiders and misunderstood corporations and CEOs are going to be swayed MIGHTILY by our HOPE and GOOD FEELINGS!!! It'll be like Utopia. We're all going to be very happy together with all of our HOPE and CHANGE and COMITY and COMMUNITY, GOOD FEELINGS and POSITIVE WORDS!!

These good feelings cause instant CHANGE! I paid off all my bills and debt with all these positive words!

YAY!

/sarcasm