Is Hillary's sudden dependence on Michigan and Florida a Sign of things to come?

I've noticed that the latest Hillarite Talking Points now seem to focus on how these two states are somehow going to be given delegates in the end.

No matter that they have officially been stripped of delegates by the DNC.
No matter that this in itself has and will drastically affect the turnout and thus the outcome of these Primaries, hopelessly distorting them.

Hillary trumpeted her 'victory' in Michigan even though she was only able to capture 55% of the vote while running virtually unopposed.
She will try to do the same in Florida. Though pledging not to campaign there, she is still planning events in the state.

Her forces have determined they will likely face 2 defeats in a row shortly,
so they are starting to whip up support for overturning the DNC decision on these states.

They are already trying to spread unrest amongst the citizenry by telling them that they are being disenfranchised. They say that Obama supports this, and that only Hillary wants their votes to count. That's why she stayed on the ballot in MI.

They will try to put a Full-Court Press on Howard Dean.
I think they are in for a rude awakening.

Just so we're clear.

Just so we're clear.

she had, in essence, "anyone but hillary" which did significantly worse than her opponents did in Iowa or New Hampshire.

I don't think I'd be bragging about that.

is that her opponent isn't actually 'nobody' Michigan does, you understand, have media like radios, and newpapers? (I heard a rumor there are even a couple of those newfangled 'television sets' in the state) so people know exactly who is running, and who her opponents are. if you support Obama, or Edwards, or Kucinich, you voted 'uncommitted' I think people in Michigan, as a general rule (especially primary voters) are smart enough to figure this out.

you can interpret it as you wish.

is that 55% of Democratic voters in Michigan yesterday said they want Hillary Clinton to be the next President of the US.

She got more votes, in toto, yesterday, than Obama, Edwards and Kucinich have recieved combined in the two previous primaries. That's what I read.

i also read that Obama and Edwards had better start making nice with Michigan and Florida, because there is a base there waiting for them to campaign, and if it comes down to November, they don't want to lose those two states.

and Obama and Edwards were playing by the rules but that's par for the course of Losers like dlc'shillary.

is such an awful thing, isn't it?

but don't let the dinos underhanded manueverings make you investigate why they moved Michigan's primary up before super Tuesday.

just because the Party wants Iowa and New Hampshire given preeminence, the people of Michigan don't get to vote? think about that for just a second. Hillary has run no ads in Michigan, no campaign stops (save fundraisers in both Michigan and Florida, and frankly, there is too much money at stake not to fundraise) she had no ground operation. she just didn't remove herself from the ballot because Howard Dean wanted her to. trust me, that went over very well in Michigan.

Tuesday like the rest of us..and we have reports that hillary sent robo-messages on Michigan phones..like I said don't worry about the underhandedness of the dlc..just be happy with hillary.

so thanks.

in November.

and she is wrong there. We should, as a party and as a people, be working diligently to expand opportunities to vote, we should be making it easier, not harder.

showed up in droves to vote freaking uncommitted?? If Obama wasn't on the ballot, I would've stayed home too, as did many Michiganders, and you KNOW this. If these delegates are somehow seated when two of the major candidates weren't even on the ballot- well, that'd be par for the f'ing course, now wouldn't it?

to keep senators Edwards and Obama off the ballot, I would be right there with you. But they were on the ballot, and withdrew by choice. And then you complain they didn't get any delegates? Michigan didn't tell them not to run, they told Michigan not to vote for them. Sorry, not a lot of sympathy.

Granted, a bunch of people did come out to stick it to her.

But the numbers would have been much larger in a valid Primary.

they were told, by people like Conyers, that if they wanted to vote for someone else, they should vote 'uncommitted' it also works as a protest vote against being disenfranchised.

Most Dems don't pay attention to the DLC and DNC and don't even know the difference. They may not have a computer or subscribe to a daily paper. They may watch only the evening news, not having cable news channels. Maybe they don't understand that their primary is illegal.

All many of them know is that they are democrats and it's their duty to vote. When they get to the ballot box, the name they know best is Clinton. So they vote.

I bet only 20% of the 55% knew what was going on. My husband sure didn't. Today he asked me why Obama's name wasn't on the ballot. I don't know whether he would have voted for him or not, just making the point that most folks don't pay attention. Most don't care about or even want to know about politics.

He voted "uncommitted" not because of Conyers, whom he knows nothing about, he just doesn't care for Clinton (while I voted Kucinich).

on the issues of our time..they want to make sure the news about brittany is out there for consumption and they get their tax cuts and monopoly. Whomever they think will insure that for is okay with them. And, it's not going to be Dean or John Edwards..that's for sure. We already know their feelings about Dennis, too.

They want a race between Obama and hillary and I'm guessing hillary is more their style.

These are the folks who run the country now.

http://www.ndol.org/

http://www.nndb.com/group/269/000093987/

The people of MI knew that this contest wasn't worth anything.
That caused a decrease in overall turnout.

Hillary supporters knew she was on the ballot, and showed up to vote for her.

The supporters of Obama and Edwards knew their candidates weren't on the ballot.
That caused a decrease in their turnout.
Only the diehards came out to vote against Hillary, and they still made an impressive showing.

If this contest had been worth something,
the People would have turned out and the result would have been much different.

But if this is the only hope of Hillarism, keep trumpeting this triumph in MI.
All Hail the beauty Pageant Queen!

think she we will able to walk away with Michigan without a lot of people being very upset you've got another thing coming.

are you upset?

She thinks people are dumb enough to think that MI actually counted.

Then, when the convention comes and no delegates are seated,
Hillary will cry foul and try to whip people into a frenzy saying their votes are being ignored.

She is so predictable. You just have to get into that "InItToWinIt" mentality.

we aren't. all I know is that given the latest polls, there is a very real possibility that Hillary Clinton will go into South Carolina having won consecutive victories in New Hampshire, Michigan and Nevada. if she wins Nevada saturday, watch the polls in South Carolina begin to swing back her way, that will be two full weeks of media about how she is winning. Obama then has one shot at stopping her in South Carolina or she will ride the wave into Florida (another easy win) and into Super Tuesday, which will suit her very well. you never thought Nevada would matter this much, did you?

it's not about what's fair inside the party. people don't CARE about that. they care about winning, and if Hillary pulls out Nevada, she's going to start looking an awful lot like a winner to an awful lot of people.

and when your Voter Suppression attempt is rejected by the Courts tomorrow,
Hillary's chances in NV go up in smoke.

the one thing I am consistent on is wanting more people to have the chance to have their voices heard, the 45,000 in vegas and the 3 million democrats in Michigan. I hope that tournout in Nevada sets records, the way iowa and new Hampshire did.

She lost 40% of the vote to it statewide. This non-campeigning non-entite actually rivaled Hillary. If you are actually proud of that keep bragging.

Nobody really wants to just disenfranchise huge states, no matter how the state parties conducted their affairs, or how the national party failed to compromise.

no one is going to, in the end, disenfranchise two states that could be in play in November. if this was Nebraska and South Carolina, it would be a different story.

If Hillary goes into Convention with the nomination locked up, she will ask for her supporting delegates to be seated, and will get that request.

if Obama/Edwards has the nomination locked up, he will ask for the delegations to be seated as a peace offering to the Hillary wing. And he will get it.

if Kucinich has the nomination locked up, well it won't really matter since the effects of the freezing of Hell will have destroyed the planet anyway and we'll all be Zombies.

This is the last hope of Hillarism.

These Primaries have been distorted beyond any value.
Because they have no delegates, the results are hopelessly skewed.

Hillary will not get delegates based on these results.

The only way they would be re-awarded is if another Primary was held after February 5 in these states.

welcome to the wonderful world of hardball. The delelgates will be seated, unless we don't have a nominee locked up by August (which is highly unlikely) it's an inner-party squabble, and not one that anyone will care about in two weeks.

just because Edwards, Obama and Kucinich told Florida and Michigan voters to fuck off doesn't mean we don't need them in November. Michigan and Florida will be in Denver, or Mittens Rommney is our next president. don't be naive. Edwards and Obama didn't think, when they dropped off the Michigan and Florida ballots, that those states would matter. hope that doesn't come back and bite them in the ass, huh?

I have my absentee ballot in my hand

Biden

Clinton

Dodd

Edwards

Gravel

Kucinich

Obama

Richardson


wealsohave Property Tax Exemptions onProperty Taxes.....a big issue

soyes the voters will be out in force.........

I didn't know that. I think it was a mistake to drop anyone off the ballot in Michigan, I am glad they are all on in Florida.

but it seems that to remove their name from the ballot in Florida they have to drop out of the race(not a very likely occurence)

to allow people to vote? no one has answered me on this yet. fine, the state parties annoyed the national party. but come on, who the hell cares, once it's time to actually VOTE?

I wish everyone on this thread could name their state party chair. sheesh.

A pleasure to see you about the place, my friend!

Michigan "votes" meaningless but the media can not let it go...it`s a manufactured story. we are being played

The two states, Hillary would win walking way, were effectively neutered...

That's why these states were moved up in the first place.

That's why she is having such trouble letting them go. They were integral pieces of the plan.

Ah, but the best laid plans of weasels and men...

IA and NH are so much more important to Democratic prospects in the Fall than Florida and Michigan....

Real genius...

"Excuse me, Senator, but why did you put Party over people? why did you allow a petty party squabble to interfere with you talking to people in two states that you will need in November? Why was the Democratic Party more important to you than the people of Michigan and Florida? why was pleasing Howard Dean more important than talking to the 26 million Americans in Michigan and Florida who had nothing to do with this petty squabble? and now that it's over, do you support the right to have those votes mean something, or should the actions of a few high level muckety-mucks disenfranchise these two states completely?"

and senator, my 92 year old Grandmother lives in Florida, and she wants to know why she can't cast her first primary vote for a black man. can you explain to her why you aren't on the ballot? please?

I'd say to hell with the DNC, I'd call a press conference now and live on air ask Obama and Edwards to support her in calling for the DNC to lift the delegate ban on Michigan and Florida, and if so ask for a revote in Michigan later in the season. How could they refuse, it would be damaging on their part to do so.

It would be a great piece of statesmanship and would take these two states back into the fold.

But Michigan and Florida refuse to (re)vote later in the season.

So if that goes through favorably before August it will be like finding money for anyone who is on the ballot and wins delegates.

Hopefully the Courts will settle it this month. The only commercials I see since Romney pulled his money out is the NYThug telling us how he is going to reduce our taxes with AG McCullom running around with him holding the microphone and grinning like a possum eating sh*t. 'Impeachem Bill has such a fantastic record as a Florida public servant. Used to say he was from the Orlando Area in order not to admit he was from Brooksville (Wingnut Country) when he was running for Senator... The humor of that campaign when Jebbie and Georgie's man ran the last minute phone campaign in the RedNeck Riveria saying he was gay.... Then he really did move to Longwood before he ran for AG. He is a real treat.

coming down to the dlc dinos versus the DNC Democrats and we're gonna see.

hillary's thinking..everybody loves a winner..I'll just "trumpet" these wins in Michigan and Florida even though I'm the only one on the ballot and act all winner like..see how many suckers I can on my wagon.

It'll cost him his job at the DNC, but he seems to be a guy who is highly principled.

good negotiator. If bill nelson has a law suit then the DNC is involved in that, too..as well as the lawsuit in Nevada where the teacher's union that is backing hillary is trying to stifle the Culinary Union's opportunity to caucus.

And we'll see about Dean's job and what he does next after 2008~

you're wrong. They will not want to throw away huge states in the general. The candidates are walking a very fine line here. All of them.

Part of the reason for the push to get people to vote uncommited (By John Conyers) was so that there would be free delegates to support Obama or Edwards at the convention. It wasn't about making Hillary lose votes to "uncommitted" - it was about trying to do the right thing by Michigan.

These early Primaries are damaged beyond repair.

No Delegates = Low Turnout

Incomplete Ballot = Distorted Result

Low turnout + Distorted Result = Invalid Primary

how much you wanna bet that Michigan's delegates are seated in Denver? name your price.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3801849 :rofl:

Anything to add regarding your candidates vain attempt to run in MI and FL?

:rofl:

Hillary may run the DLC,
but the DNC is a different story.

They know exactly what she is doing.
She will not be able to claim delegates from flawed Primaries.

The only way any delegates will be awarded is if another Primary is held in these states after Feb 5.

But have fun building the House of Hillary on the foundation of MI and FL,
I will enjoy watching it all come tumbling down.

the first Republican to win Michigan since Reagan. After all, Obama didn't want Michganders to vote for him now, why would they vote for him then?

The Repukes don't stand a chance.

The Hillarite built his house upon Michigan,
The Hillarite built his house upon Michigan,
The Hillarite built his house upon Michigan,
And the delegates came tumbling down!

The delegates came down and the Convention came up,
The delegates came down and the Convention came up,
The delegates came down and the Convention came up,
And the house on Michigan went SPLAT!

this nomination process will be over, for all practical purposes, on February 6. it's not going to August. it could be either Obama or Hillary, which is unclear, but we will know on February 6.

by the way, do you always use such nasty terms when referring to sitting US Senators, especially those within your party, or do you save them special for Senator Clinton?

I think Obama will be in the lead by then.

However, I do think that Hillary and crew will use all resources at their disposal to force the seating of these delegates in hopes that it results in a brokered convention.

Two of the largest electorates there is.

Do you think the DNC is blind to what Hillary is going to attempt here?

I will put a year's rent on my apartment up against your freshman year tuition (I'm just guessing there) that the delegates will be seated.

and when our candidate, Barack Obama seats them, I expect you to be leading the charge calling him a cheater, rule breaker and ethically challegned. everyone except you seems to konw what's going to happen, will you still support Senator Obama when he seats the Michigan Delegation in Denver? yes or no, please.

I bet you a $50 DU Donation that the delegates for MI and FL will not be seated based on the results of these early Primaries.

They may be seated based on a later Primary, but the flawed results will not be used to determine who receives them.

:rofl:

Didn't you say that these Primary results would stand and delegates would be seated based on this?

I don't agree with that at all.

The only way any delegates are getting seated is if people vote again.

we shall talk in august then.

:thumbsup:

seated eventually from MI and FL. The fact that HRC is so lacking in moral fortitude and character that she left her name on the ballot is one thing. To claim a "win" is despicable, but totally in line with tactics thus far. That her "supporters" here would be proud that their chosen one is stooping to such lows, is typical. All this after she successfully smeared Obama, no one called her on it, she never apologized, and Obama ended up apologizing for being smeared. Kind of reminds me of the character of a man who would take a seat as CiC of this Country without winning the votes for it. They are, indeed, much alike.

when Hillary bucks the party, she's 'unprincipled' when Kucinich sues the party, he's a man of principle. odd.

She is in it to win it, regardless of the wishes of the majority of Americans.

She will do whatever is necessary to achieve her goal.

Crying in NH, Voter suppression in NV, race-baiting in SC,
Participating in invalid Primaries... Whatever it takes.

Would she manipulate a vote count, I wonder?

Would the Hillarites even fault her for it?

She is in it to win it, regardless of the wishes of the majority of Americans.


well, there are 26 million people in Michigan and Florida who get to have their say.

meanwhile, Obama and Edwards are in it to win it, despite disengranchising twenty six million americans.

Obama to Michigan: you don't count. Obama to Florida: you don't get to have a say.

oh yeah, that's brilliantly ethical. good times.

whom, and why the candidates agreed not to campaign/run there. I don't agree with the decision.. at all, but aside from that, there is a character issue here. Obviously that's one issue that HRC cannot compete in.

I konw full well why they were stripped (I also know full well they will be seated anyway) why is it a lack of character to remain on the ballot in two states, comprising 8% of the US population?

I get it, the Party had a squabble. let me give you a little clue: no one gives a flying fuck about that outside the party insiders People in Michigan don't care, they only care that their options were not the best field the party has thrown up in decades, but Hillary or nothing. the Party told the people of Michigan that they don't get to choose, because of some arcane inner-party pissing match that no one cares about how is that a positive thing? how is it possibly a positive? Obama and Edwards announced, publically, that the inner-party squabbles were more important to them than voters in Michigan. brilliant.

Really? How is it that you are so privy to such sage information?

With all of the insight and knowledge you've been posting on this thread, my guess is that you must have weekly dinners with Dr. Dean. :shrug:

It is the DNC that made the decision to strip the delegates.

Not Obama or Edwards. Out of loyalty to the Party they agreed not to campaign in these states and removed their names from the MI ballot.

Hillary in her unending desire for the Presidency is willing to disavow her own Party if it gets her elected. She has and will campaign in these states. She left her name on the MI ballot.
She is loyal to one person, herself.

She sees this as a chance to manipulate the delegate count in her favor.
She will attempt to force the seating of delegates based on flawed Primaries.
She doesn't care about the people of MI or FL, but she will utilize them in her charade.

Out of loyalty to the Party they agreed not to campaign in these states and removed their names from the MI ballot.


to Obama and Edwards, internal party politics is more important than people in Michigan getting to vote.

tell me, if, tomorrow, the DNC announced that people named Jack are no longer allowed to vote for Democrats, and Obama and Edwards said "hey, party before people, you're out Jack" how would you feel? would you continue to support them, even though they said they didn't want your support, because the 'party' told them not to? meanwhile, Hillary says "hey, just because Obama and Edwards do what the Party wants here, doesn't mean I do, I'll take your votes." lemme guess, you choose to still support Obama/Edwards, right? becuase the Party decided it wanted to punish people named jack, and you understand that party means more than you getting to choose.

who cares about the internal arcane practices of the party? this is about national image. Hillary won, Obama and Edwards lost in that fight. THey let her look like the outsider, while they look like good soldiers. bad, bad move.

Hillary will do whatever she can to muddy this fact.
She will blame it on her fellow candidates or the DNC.
Anything to try and make herself look like she is on the right side.

When actually, this makes Hillary look like someone who is so desperate to win that she will participate in faux contests and then use all her political pull to try and make them real.

Try winning it in the valid Primaries, Hillary.
You don't always have to cheat your way in.

thank you for letting us vote, massah Jack, thankee. we promise we'll be nice and do whatever people want us to do. can I get you a nice mint julep, massah?

and look, asshole. the GOP-controlled florida house and senate changed the Florida primary date. and like good litte house boys, Obama and Edwards lined up and said "hey, we do whatever our bosses tell us" how do you really think that looks?

oh, and Hillary is ahead on contested primaries as well, right?

So you admit that it was the Florida House and Senate who caused this problem.

Yet you continue to blame anyone else, besides Hillary of course. She is your Voting Rights Champion (at least for FL and MI, NV is another story)

seems to me that the Florida GOP set a trap and the DNC walked right into it.

Why should I be disenfranchised because someone else did something stupid?

That makes as much sense as giving me a lethal injection if my neighbor murders someone....

The Florida Primary should be postponed until February 5 so that your vote counts.

It is your Elected Representation which has done this. They can undo it.

Obama can't fix it. Edwards can't fix it.
And Hillary the "Voting Rights Champine" can't do it no matter how hard she tries.

Q:Why should I have to pay taxes just because some Congressmen did something stupid and made an Income Tax?

A: Because I am a citizen of this Nation and there are both rules and privileges involved in my participation.


Knowing full well of the rules involved in Presidential Primaries,
the Congress of Florida chose to willfully violate the "On or After Feb 5." limitation.
They knew that the punishment for this was the loss of Delegates.
They did it anyway.

Sure, I agree it sucks for you and other Floridians.
But you are bound by the actions of your Elected Representation.
Just as if they passed any other law.

They did so on the last day possible after fearing that the 2nd tier could use that as a weapon against him.

Basically gave the finger to MI in a short sighted bid for votes in Iowa & NH.

Then Obama violated his own pledge by having his surrogates actively campaign against Hillary Clinton.

She will do the same in FL.

It is now becoming clear that these two states are Hillary's Plan B.

She sees losses coming in NV and SC. She fears how this will affect Feb 5.

Her only hope seems to be claiming delegates from states that have none.

She will try to make herself out to be a voting rights champion,
when, in actuality, she is just desperate politician out to get elected.

And if you thinking of linking to the DUer's thread about his mom getting phone calls, don't bother.

but Dennis Kucinich did. I don't hear a lot of talk from his supporters about that.

Or decline to comment..? does anybody know?

They have been informed of just how important these delegates are to your Queen.
Maybe you missed the memo.

Hillary, we, no you have a problem and you created it yourself.