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Hillary, YOU Don뭪 Get to Decide to Seat Our Delegates

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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009)

ProSense

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:06 PM
Original message

Hillary, YOU Don뭪 Get to Decide to Seat Our Delegates

Hillary, YOU Don뭪 Get to Decide to Seat Our Delegates

By: emptywheel Friday January 25, 2008 4:50 pm

This is probably going to get me kicked out of the MDP, but this is bullshit.

Statement by Senator Hillary Clinton on the Seating of Delegates at the Democratic National Convention

I hear all the time from people in Florida and Michigan that they want their voices heard in selecting the Democratic nominee.

I believe our nominee will need the enthusiastic support of Democrats in these states to win the general election, and so I will ask my Democratic convention delegates to support seating the delegations from Florida and Michigan. I know not all of my delegates will do so and I fully respect that decision. But I hope to be President of all 50 states and U.S. territories, and that we have all 50 states represented and counted at the Democratic convention.

I hope my fellow potential nominees will join me in this.

I will of course be following the no-campaigning pledge that I signed, and expect others will as well.

Its bullshit for a number of reasons. Hillary is pretending that this matter won't be decided, by the party, well before her delegates get to Denver. She's pretending the decision hasn't already been made that, once it becomes clear a candidate has the nomination, the DNC will announce that MI's and FL's delegates will be seated in Denver. And she's pretending that she can somehow give us voice in the nomination process, when MI's Clusterfuck has already guaranteed we will have no voice.

It's a shameless pander to Florida's voters, an incredibly dangerous move suggesting that Hillary might someday try to claim MI's and FL's delegates to contribute to her total, and it's a nasty cynical tactic that cheapens my vote.

OUR state gambled with the Clusterfuck and lost. That's an issue between us, our party leaders, and the DNC. But it is not your place, Hillary, to swoop in and make it better. And to suggest it is your place really, really, risks damaging the party.

Back during the Clusterfuck, I scoffed when people said Hillary would try to seat MI's delegates. Such a tactic would only be tried, I thought, by a reckless person who put herself above the larger good.

Apparently I was wrong. About Hillary, that is. Not about the recklessness of this.

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Name removed

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:07 PM
Response to Original message

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

mondo joe

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:09 PM
Original message

Too much.

Way too fucking much.

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ProSense

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #1

6. Nothing. You? n/t

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papau

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #6

14. It is too easy - and mean - to comment on that statement - but biting my tongue hurts - in any case

the convention can seat whomever it wants - so those delegates are not banned forever unless the convention says so.

Hillary is asking the others to ask the convention to join her in requesting the convention to seat those delegates.

She will be rebuffed by the other two - those delegates will not get the vote - but it is not an evil idea

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krkaufman

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Sun Jan-27-08 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #14

71. Well, "evil" is determined by motivations and intent...

... and we have no way of being certain of her campaign's intent on the issue.

For example, the timing -- making the request a few days before the FL primary -- that her campaign is hoping to reap a political benefit in the voting. And that's putting aside the fact that Florida voting will lean, as in Michigan where advertising and campaigning were also banned, towards the candidate with the best name recognition.

(I think "evil" is a bit too cartoonish, regardless; but "altruistic" and "democratic" certainly don't apply any better.)

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babylonsister

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #1

8. One of ProSense's posts is worth about 30 of yours. Just sayin'. nt

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LittleClarkie

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #8

35. Considering how much info is packed into them, I'd agree

She does a good job of backing things up with links, for sure.

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Joe the Revelator

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #1

9. You of ALL people should not be asking this question.

nt

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durrrty libby

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:09 PM
Response to Original message

2. Nice to see you support disenfranchising hundreds of thousands

of voters.:thumbsup:

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mckeown1128

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #2

10. What choice did the voters in MI have?

It was Hillary, Dennis, and uncommited.

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truedelphi

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #10

33. Very good point. Hillary got a lot of votes

Edited on Fri Jan-25-08 09:46 PM by truedelphi

that is, delegates, because she was on the ballot.

But others weren't.

SO it is hardly democratic anyway.

My head spins every time I think about Florida, Michigan and the disenfrachised voters in those states.

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davidinalameda

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #2

12. the Michigan and Florida state leadership made their decisions

and they have to live with it

they're the ones who disenfranchised the voters

the national leadership set rules and the leadership in these two states didn't follow them

I'd say it's a bit late in the game to go back and change the rules

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joshcryer

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #12

13. Their delegates will get seated, however.

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Nedsdag

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #2

15. Why do you care about disenfranchised voters?

You certainly didn't care when there were problems in New Hampshire?

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mondo joe

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #15

24. Who was disenfranchised in NH?????

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CubsWaitNoYankees

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Fri Jan-25-08 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #2

45. Nice to see you support person over party

Edited on Fri Jan-25-08 10:27 PM by CubsWaitNoYankees

You'd be happy in Weimar Germany.

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EFerrari

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Sat Jan-26-08 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #2

56. Don't cry for me, Myrtle Beach!

NOW Hillary is concerned for hundreds of thousands of voters?

She's late!

lol

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jasmine621

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:10 PM
Response to Original message

3. Hillary said she is "asking" not "deciding."

Please stop the sniping.

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jackson_dem

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:10 PM
Response to Original message

4. She doesn't but she has a right to stand up for the enfranchisement of all Democrats

We should have done what the rethugs did: penalize Florida and Michigan but not strip them of their voice.

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dionysus

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #4

19. how the hell would you penalize them? ground them?

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jackson_dem

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Sat Jan-26-08 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #19

64. The rethugs took away half their delegates

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krkaufman

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Sun Jan-27-08 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #19

72. Great question. What other remedy would there be?

I wouldn't have a problem w/ allowing their delegates back in, if it weren't for the fact that no campaigning or advertising was allowed, and the other remaining candidates weren't even on the ballot in Michigan. The MI & FL delegates are now tainted by a lack of campaigning, and so should not be the deciding factor in determining the nominee.

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demo dutch

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Fri Jan-25-08 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #4

50. Thank you, I agree. I'm sick and tired of being disenfranchised.

The Dem leadership in FL sucks, and I can't wait to get the hell out of FL.

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JAbuchan08

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Sat Jan-26-08 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #4

66. Of course she waits until she's secured virtually all their delegates

She didn't make this move before they voted, so that all the Dems would have representation.
She clearly preferred to get Michigan in her pocket before she challenged the DNC. That alone demonstrates that it's not about giving a voice to voters its about getting votes for herself.

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krkaufman

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Sun Jan-27-08 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #66

73. Two other interesting notes to consider...

(1) the request has come just days before the voting in Florida, where no advertising or campaigning is allowed. Thus, the request will get play in the Florida news media, framing Hillary as the friend of the Florida voter;

(2) is Hillary is so concerned about voter disenfranchisement, where has she been on the issue since she was elected in 2000, the same cycle as the Bush v Gore travesty? I'm not well-versed on her record, but her name is not exactly springing to mind like "Rush Holt."

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fenriswolf

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:10 PM
Response to Original message

5. the poster has a very good point

Edited on Fri Jan-25-08 09:12 PM by fenriswolf

and the fact that hillary is making a play for MI and FL delegates. After it was already agreed by the candidates.

That and Hillary was the only one on the ticket

She is the only person who could gain from this move. If they had campaigned or were all on the ballot then it would have been a fair shot. But with edward and obama exluding themselves as per the dnc orders this move is Very cheap IMHO.

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UALRBSofL

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Fri Jan-25-08 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #5

48. I'd like to set the record straight

On the florida ballot Hillary, John, and Barack are on it and anyone can vote for them.

Hillary did make a statement she would like to see the people of florida and michigan represented.

Obama has been running campaign ads in florida the past 2 weeks on CNN every 3 or 4 hours. The DNC along with the candidates signed a contract not to campaign or run ads in these states. Obama circumvented the DNC, running ads on CNN but didn't block michigan or florida.

I can see where Barrack and Hillary would be pandering for votes. However, I believe if the DNC allowed the delegates to count in florida Obama would do very well because he's the only one running campaign ads in florida even though it is against DNC rules.

I'm not going to say either Hillary or Barrack are doing the right thing but they both are trying to win delegates.

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krkaufman

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Sun Jan-27-08 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #48

74. Per the DNC rules, if Obama is running ads in Florida ...

... then he should be stripped of any candidates that he "wins."

As for "do very well", I think we'll find that Clinton continues to have the advantage, due to overwhelming name recognition.

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MercutioATC

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:15 PM
Response to Original message

7. ...and I wonder what her tune would be if she didn't stand to gain ALL of MI's delegates...

I'm SURE she'd be just as interested in protecting voters' rights if one of her opponents stood to gain...

:eyes:

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thoughtcrime1984

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Sat Jan-26-08 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #7

57. You know that then it wouldn't mean a damn thing

It's all about the Hil, the voters are only important if they are for her.

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JAbuchan08

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Sat Jan-26-08 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #7

67. Yup.

n/t

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tandem5

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:17 PM
Response to Original message

11. "That's an issue between us, our party leaders, and the DNC."

I don't remember having a heart-to-heart with my DNC representatives on such issues lately. I have, however, exchanged choice words with their outsourced tele-fundraisers and we had consensus! - I wouldn't donate crap and they wouldn't send a message back to the DNC about my concerns. Oh the channels of communication between voter and party establishment is wide, open and free!!

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davidinalameda

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #11

17. so you yelled at some minimum wage telemarketer?

you could have written a letter or sent an email or made a phone call to your state party office

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tandem5

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #17

36. yes, that's right I taunted that snarky bastard...

Edited on Fri Jan-25-08 10:37 PM by tandem5

he was all like, "ah man I'm just doing my job - I gotz to feed the family ya know? I haves the two little ones at home and they're sick - really sick - I swear to you! So if you could just cut me a break!" And I was like, "A break!? A break!? You son of a bitch - don't you dare talk to me that way - We live in a well-defined striated class system and you sir, if I dear give you that much respect as to address you as sir, are in a class well BELOW mine!" And he said, "I don't even know what 'well definite strations' are, but you have no right to talk about my mother that way!" And I was like - "Whatevers!" - and I held both hands over my forehead in the shape of a W, but he couldn't see 'cause he was on the phone.

on edit: 'dare' not 'dear', a little warped phonetical malaprop on my part - my bad.

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durtee librul

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:20 PM
Response to Original message

16. I live in MI

and couldn't agree with you more. Hubby and I voted uncommitted for this very reason. I don't trust her. Period and this just proves it.

Who the hell does she think she is? Oh, I know, Queen Hillary...the perfect foil for King George. Sorry Hill supporters....this just plain sucks and if you'd get your thinking straight, you'd agree.

To me, this is vote stealing. Plain and simple. So she didn't rig the machines, she rigged who was on the ballot. Which is worse? (and yes, I DO believe she had her tiny little grubby fingers in the decision to not seat or count any write ins on our ballots...notice I said OUR ballots!) This is a blatant vote grab and I didn't even get a purple ink stained finger from it.

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creeksneakers2

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Sat Jan-26-08 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #16

70. I don't see how this can be rigging

She'll need a plurality of delegates to seat the Florida and Michigan delegates, so if she has the power to do that, she probably already has the nomination locked up. If Hillary loses the primaries and caucuses, she won't have the delegates needed to make the Michigan and Florida changes. So the outcome of the nominating process probably won't be affected.

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WillyT

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:22 PM
Response to Original message

18. Go Marci !!! - K & R !!!

:yourock:

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mtnsnake

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:23 PM
Response to Original message

20. Anyone can run around posting negative article after article. Do you ever have an original thought?

Or is the only thing you know how to do is run around googling the internet for thousands of juicy articles from any blog on the planet, as long as it's about Clintons?

Good gawd, anyone on this forum could search the thousands of bloggers for their opinions on any of the candidates and paste them here if they wanted to take all that time. What a waste of imagination and time, though.

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babylonsister

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #20

21. Must hurt to know all the articles are true though. Ouchie! See

Edited on Fri Jan-25-08 09:25 PM by babylonsister

post #16 for some real life experience at the hands of Hillary.

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ProSense

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #20

23. "Do you ever have an original thought?" Yes!

Do you have a point to make about the issue in the OP?

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madrchsod

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #20

28. go to the madfloridian`s journal

and you will read that the democratic leadership in flordia decided to go against dean and the party---with the help of the republicans.

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mtnsnake

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #28

29. That's the last place on earth I'd ever go to. Give me ProSense's threads over that...any day

of the week and twice on Sunday.

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madrchsod

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:25 PM
Response to Original message

22. i bet dean is fucking pissed off over this

is`t hillary supposed to follow the party rules and decisions.or has she decided to brush aside dean and the party and install herself as his replacement?

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Adelante

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #22

27. It's sabotage is what it is nt

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krkaufman

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Sun Jan-27-08 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #22

75. Yeah, that's another thing I'm wondering about.

What is the process for selecting DNC chair? How does the nominee affect the choice?

Personally, I think Dean's done a great job. Seems like we're hearing about a lot of benefits of the "50 state strategy" on a regular basis.

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Clintonite

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:26 PM
Response to Original message

25. Shouldn't everyone have a vote?

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madrchsod

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #25

30. that`s not the point-the leadership in both mi and florida

went against the party and decided to have their own dates for the primary. we either have rules in the party or there is no party.

yes everyone should vote but it was there own state party that denied them not dean

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Blarch

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:28 PM
Response to Original message

26. What a disgusting person she is.

Fuck her. How 'Karl Rove' of her.

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jenmito

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #26

32. It's just another sign that all she cares about is winning. By any means necessary.

Disgusting.

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mtnsnake

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #26

37. Are you by any chance Dick Cheney's wife?

You sound exactly like her when she said such a similar rotten thing about Kerry after that debate where Kerry made the Lesbian comment.

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NoFederales

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:32 PM
Response to Original message

31. A cold, and interesting tactic, but if the argument is about disenfranchisement,

then it is so bogus because VOTING BALLOT INTEGRITY is the bigger disenfranchisement issue and WHO is bringing this up among the candidates?

Shit, it's only the biggest right we claim in this Republic. And if it's not verifiable...................?

NoFederales

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Lerkfish

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Fri Jan-25-08 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #31

42. this is one of the more important points of the thread

well put.

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rodeodance

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:41 PM
Response to Original message

34. well gee --She is ASKING--NOT deciding--What IS your beef?

Hillary, YOU Don뭪 Get to Decide to Seat Our Delegates

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johnnydrama

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Fri Jan-25-08 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #34

38. why

Why is Hillary constantly challenging things with days left until the primary, when she could have challenged this weeks or months ago?

How many months ago was this decided? How many months ago were the caucuses in NV decdied?

Hillary's chosing heads when the coin has already landed.

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babylonsister

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Fri Jan-25-08 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #38

39. "Hillary's chosing heads when the coin has already landed." Perfect!

:thumbsup:

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johnnydrama

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Fri Jan-25-08 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #39

41. except

I spelled choosing wrong.

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babylonsister

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Fri Jan-25-08 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #41

43. ...

:rofl: I noticed that, but didn't want to steal your thunder. No one cares, or at least I don't. :toast:

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rodeodance

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Sat Jan-26-08 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #39

53. I love a lady with guts and one who stands up for the voters.

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EFerrari

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Sat Jan-26-08 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #53

58. But she's not doing either. She's trying to rack up delegates

AFTER these voters were cut out of the process.

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rodeodance

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Sat Jan-26-08 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #38

52. cause it is a woman's perogative to change her mind? te he.

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krkaufman

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Sun Jan-27-08 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #38

76. As I've said elsewhere in the thread ...

... the timing, just days before the FL primary, is likely timed to buy her some additional support and votes in Florida -- just in case the delegates *do* get seated.

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MBS

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Fri Jan-25-08 10:08 PM
Response to Original message

40. I'm with you, and empty wheel . n/t

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ursi

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Fri Jan-25-08 10:24 PM
Response to Original message

44. I apologize but this appears to be the behavior of a meglomaniac

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Bread and Circus

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Fri Jan-25-08 10:31 PM
Response to Original message

46. Notice how she pulls this shit out of her ass AFTER the

bulk of the elections or deciding to vote is DONE in Iowa, NH, Nevada, and soon to be SC?

That's the whole shooting match right there.

The whole pledge they took was to give them some levarage with the early states. Now that the early states are out of the way, Clinton want to break her promises.

Get used to broken promises.

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kelligesq

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Sat Jan-26-08 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #46

59. Since Obama broke the pledge not to campaign in Fl you have nothing to bellyache about

:puke:

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still_one

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Fri Jan-25-08 10:38 PM
Response to Original message

47. Point blank, if the DNC allows this, my registration will go from Democratic to decline to state/nt

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demo dutch

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Fri Jan-25-08 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #47

49. Sorry, but just because we have lousy Dem leadership in Fl, shouldn't mean that the voter should get

Edited on Fri Jan-25-08 11:12 PM by demo dutch

disenfranchised again! I can't wait to get the hell out of FL.
This election is just too important to forego FL, especially in light of W's recent concocted agreement with Iraq. They're practically giving away FL to the GOP who will have an advantage with the Indies, especially if they nominate McCain

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still_one

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Fri Jan-25-08 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #49

51. I am not blaming Democratic voters in those states, I am blaming BOTH

the Democratic leadership in Florida, AND the DNC to have even allowed this to happen, BOTH in Michigan and Florida

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rodeodance

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Sat Jan-26-08 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #51

55. glad to see you agree it is the VOTERS who get stepped on. She is trying

to fix that wrong.

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still_one

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Sat Jan-26-08 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #55

65. you misunderstand me, don't count on my vote if Clinton wins the nomination /nt

Edited on Sat Jan-26-08 07:07 AM by still_one

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kelligesq

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Sat Jan-26-08 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #47

60. bye bye. Our FL dem leadership asked last week to be seated for the two days in Colorado

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kelligesq

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Sat Jan-26-08 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #60

61. Nothing wrong with her lobbying not to disenfranchise Fl voters :)

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kelligesq

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Sat Jan-26-08 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #61

62. Dont see your candidate asking for FL & MI to be seated at the convention, but

if he had any caring for THE PEOPLE he would...

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PervezClinton

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Sat Jan-26-08 01:54 AM
Response to Original message

54. Thanks. Very informative.

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wisteria

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Sat Jan-26-08 02:20 AM
Response to Original message

63. I am sure she does hear it all the time. However, they are being

excluded because they have broken party rules and no candidate has a right to demand they be reinstated. That is for the DNC to decided.
Gee, makes me wonder if there might be ulterior motives at work here. LOL.

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MzShellG

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Sat Jan-26-08 01:07 PM
Response to Original message

68. It's only fair...

That if those two states decide to seat their delegates, that the citizens are allowed to vote again, with all the candidates on the ballot. Otherwise, the delegates should stay grounded.

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krkaufman

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Sun Jan-27-08 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #68

77. With *that* I would agree.

The existing delegates will be tainted due to a lack of campaigning, and the absence of candidates from the MI ballot.

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AtomicKitten

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Sat Jan-26-08 01:27 PM
Response to Original message

69. Not everyone was on the ballot in Michigan, but clearly the Clintons are fine with that.

They are as undemocratic as they are unDemocratic.

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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009)

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