MI and FL delegates will be seated. If Obama fights it, he will lose.

And he will lose big time. The seating of these delegates will probably come at some cost, 1/3rd of all delegates become "undecided" or something like that (brokered). But to think that the DNC will not allow voters in a state to be represented because the state party (not the voters, the party in that state) decided to go against the DNC is completely assinine.

Since that means he gets delegates in FL, even if a few of them, he needs them.

nomination. You have to get 50% of the delegates, and their totals were supposedly removed from the calculation for the number of delegates needed to win. They will be added back.

Bookmark this post. I guarantee you that in some form or another these delegates will be seated.

and to get involved in the DNC. The primary is a PARTY process/event. You want to have a say in how that event occurs get involved or shut up.

It's representational, thus you do what the people above you say.

go back in time and put their names on the Michigan ballot.

If she wanted the rules changed why didn't she speak up before the voting started?

They frickin' ran away with nary a word for any of the citizens or their supporters in this state. THEY made that choice, not Clinton or the party. That was their call.

And they left a lot of people unhappy, disappointed and discouraged.

has initiated the process.

this party.

who had no control on the decision making anyway.

Karen Thurman and Bill Nelson are poison to the party. They abused there position and screwed the Democratic Party of Florida. The real story is the ongoing theft of the National Party, like by this poster. Howard Dean built this party, the rules were negotiated, FL broke the rules after being warned repeatedly ... NOW IT'S OVER

I stand with Howard Dean.

Hillary will fire Howard Dean and Break this party.

and will have to make an exception for EVERYONE.

You cannot run a large organization like that.

Seating Michigan delegates wouldn't be 'franchinsing' the voters cause they never had a chance to vote for the other Democrats.

Clintons and their morally bankrupt supporters are going to destroy the DNC and Democratic Party.

They'll be seated.

during the debates too but don't ask me how. His horse isn't big enough or fast enough for this race regardless of the "truth" of his message.

I have no idea if JE could make of use of them or not...The whole situation stinks.

had a chance of my vote. I do not contribute to the price of a state primary just to offer a wimpy uncommitted.

I have family in Lansing. We were all mad about it. And it was totally unnecessary.
I do think that Conyers push to try and rectify the situation with the vote for uncommitted was a way to at least do something to represent Michigan voters, and possibly make it easier to get the delegates seated.

I still dont know why they made the choice they did. I understand it was to placate Iowa and NH voters, but it appears that those voters didn't care about it at all.

And there may have been a time crunch in Florida

for the sake of voters in two other states. Who SAYS that the people in Iowa or NH give a damn? The media that's who and we all know how much critical thinking that entity does.

its not always easy to get around in, the politics are complicated and the economy sucks. Its expensive to campaign in Michigan. But you can be sure the republican message received plenty of play.

is to drop out of the race fully i believe.

and have turned it into a war. Oh they want to minimize it, chase around a few rules and so on....it doesn't matter, the Michigan voters will clear it up for them. They'll say, Screw You All.

If the delegates, some or all are not counted, the Dem. voters will just stay home and we'll be red overnight. Blah...just what Michigan does not need.

FL is a bit more crucial state as far as the GE is concerned.

It would be beyond stupid not to do so.

I found your comments interesting about the Reps being responsible for it in Michigan. Someone posted something similar about why it happened the way it did in Florida. I was so annoyed with the stupidity of the whole thing that I never researched the details of HOW it all came down.

No free delegates for Bush-Clinton. :grr:

fuck-it i`m writing in dennis on the 5th

a fair and balancec primary, the party spanks their patties, they vote for the one viable Dem candidate on the ballot because the others took their names off and then they get no stinkin' delegates??

Not going to be any happy campers for that.

how the dnc asked all the candidates to not be the ballots in those states. But hillary stayed on. Now after their primary after all the voters did not think their votes would count. After this fact and after hillary stayed on the ballots are they actually talking about giving those states back their delegates. This is just wrong. Give back the delegates for two states who only had the choice of voting for one of the top 3 tier candidates. How can anyone think this is fair? if you want fair let them vote on super tuesday again with all 3 candidates on the ballot. Well see what hillary thinks of that idea.

seeing whether or not they support her doing this or not. The ones that do are the hacks that would be on my ignore list if I actually used that feature.

If you want to take my $50 bet then you're free to put your money where your mouth is.

your making an assumption that the 3 candidates or some other "council" is gonna divy up the delegates in some sort of fair way (no way is fair since the people couldn not vote for who they wanted) you are wishing. So keep wishing.

Should I even take seriously someone who doesn't know the difference between "your" and "you're"?

however like I said they are not going to give out delegates based upon arbitrary numbers. If they do then they further add to the voter disenfranchisement that has marred every election since and before 2000.

that people try to justify this behavior with obvious blindspots. The fact that they make up excuses for this type of behavior. Or worst of all when they defend this type of behavior.

It's insane!

these poor people, their vote should count. After she was the only one they could vote for, after she knows who the delegates will go for. This is a thinly veiled attempt to get more delegates. Just one more snafu in this down and dirty race for the Clinton's to get back in the wh no matter what.

that actually led to the DNC making their decision? I am sorry that there are members of the party in your state that made such a foolish mistake as to defy the DNC and move up the date, knowing full well what the repercussions would be. That is where the anger needs to be directed, not at Howard Dean, the DNC, or the candidates, for that matter.

and tens of millions aren't being ignored. tens of millions don't vote in the 2 primaries you're referring to. And of course you're a Clinton supporter. I've see enough of your posts to know that.

Also on your ignore list?

I am not an overt Clinton supporter. I *have* come out in stating that I think some Obama supporters here are overzealous and wrong on some ocassions, but in this instance I am completely neutral. I will not be participating in the primary process. I'm letting the country decide who will be the Democratic nominee.

Mika sez, "Josh! Quiet please, I can't hear...."

"my buddy, Chris..."

How could someone be in favor of voting rights and what Clinton is proposing since Obama and Edwards weren't even on the ballot? How does that work?

As someone else pointed out, exit polling could be used in the case of both members of the party.

They should've never removed their names from the ballot, because by doing so they essentially said that their votes don't matter.

Almost half the delegates are up for grabs. No doubt Obama or Edwards wouldn't mind having them.

(hint: the DNC did no such thing)

Does anybody get that distinction?

Then it's possible they could nt vote at all in the GE!

For Obama they will split between McCain and Romney. Clinton knows she needs this state. It ain't over.

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Put your money where mouth is mister 3 poster.

I mean, she was the only one to stay in MI... weird, but probably a co-inky-dince.

But they can still get those uncommitted delegates.

Perhaps the single biggest problem the Democrats have is an UTTER lack of discipline.

And that's what this is about. Michigan and Florida decided to be primadonna's -and so the forfeited their chance to be seated.

If the state's voters don't like that- they can deal with the party offcials who played this game- and lost.

The efforts by these states to move their primaries forward has never made sense. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the entire scenario was an ace up the sleeve for Hillary in the event she didn't sweep to victory as planned.

I'm coming to place her and Bill right up there with the chimp.

Unlike the message you've dedicated yourself to pushing, my speculation is reasonable. The Clintons certainly have the influence to accomplish such a deed and I don't think any rational informed person can truthfully deny that it is the type of strategy they craft.
If you want to shoot down the idea, have at it, but don't expect tagging it with a trashy comment that tries to link it to Faux News to be accepted as a rebuttal.

that gave rise to the change in the primary date and I have neither the time or the inclination to school you.

NT

when Edwards and Obama weren't even on the ballot?

I had to fucking vote "uncommitted".

The only one here who wants representation is Hillary for herself.

They would be represented if Edwards or Obama actually, uh, sent people up there to be represented rather than chosing not to be represented there (funny how they didn't mind being represented in FL).

Very close numbers when the delegates get assigned.

Hopefully this will be resolved as equitibly as possible, and I hope you're OK with whatever they do.

I am 99% certain your delegates will be seated.

state party was the genesis of this BS. It was the republicans who promoted the legislation to change the primary date in the first place. It was going to happen regardless of what Granholm or any others did or did not do. (The Michigan legislation calls the shots for now.) But its much more fun to have a pity party for grown men running for the presidential office with millions and millions of dollars at their disposal than to apply some common sense.

I am 99% certain that the delegates will be seated when or if a vote is close and that there will be a high old time on CNN and MSNBC talking about the Dem's who flip-flopped or some such nonsense.

Amazing. I didn't know the primary dates were fixed by the GOP, I thought the state party made that decision. Wow. This needs to be shouted far and wide for peple who don't understand what's going on in MI.

This makes me even more certain that those delegates will be seated.

Others got on it as a way to focus the state and its problems, including some Dem's. But what the hey...afterall now that the rest of the country is feeling the pinch, the economy is the election rage.

How about that. When it was Michigan's problem alone, no big deal. Now that a recession is here, it matters.

So I'm glad that they will be seating delegates. I've been wondering how we as a party would get past this during the general election, and this is the way.

I can hear the whiny Obama supporters now, sounding like a pack of mewling cats. But remember Obama supporters, your candidate was the one who originally broke the agreement to not run an ad targeting Florida. Think about the bigger picture of the general election.

Ironically a lot of those voters might even be Obama supporters.

It benefits all dems - no matter if Obama, John or Hillary wins the nomination.

So why bother voting in the Democratic primary?

Florida is still a big, big state. More than 4-million Democrats are registered to vote in the primary so even a low turnout, say 25 percent, would be 1-million voters. The results will be hard to ignore, which is why most observers expect Florida's primary results to affect candidate momentum going into Super Tuesday, the next week. On that day, Feb. 5, voters in 22 states go to the polls.

http://www.sptimes.com/2008/01/19/State/QA__Parties__penaltie.shtml



*********over 4 million pissed off voters here.........and we are suppose to vote in the GE?

If you think disenfranchising one block of voters isn't "bullshit" then I don't know what is.

Pathetic.

to see if MI and FL make a difference before we complain about this? There's like 10 threads on this topic and it's starting to get annoying.

when it won't matter much anymore. The winner will be decided by then.

Not even rules they agreed upon and voted for. They are big, and they can do anything they want.

They can butt in line with impunity, and they can thumb their noses because Florida is so very big.

Enough of this. Florida Democrats now threaten Dean and the DNC with a "voting rights probe".
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1453

The "appropriate legal official" to "investigate" Dean and the DNC...is...Gonzales.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1452

Nelson: "I will lead the delegates to Denver whether or not the DNC plans to let them in."
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1455

Two summaries of the DNC committee ruling about Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1456

Florida sowed the seeds of a propaganda war against the DNC.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1458

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

The latest Florida propaganda tactic here about attacking the DNC...local email.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1460

Florida's Geller joked about his amendment: "sarcasm and audible laughter in chamber"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1461

One Florida county is saying there will be further bloodshed. Much argument here today.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1462

Florida Democratic Party website building anger toward the DNC
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1465

Democratic activist sues over loss of Florida delegates
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1466

"Dean was conciliatory and offered DNC help for the state"..hour long phone call
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1467

Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1468

"Primary bully Florida ought to be ashamed"...four articles catch on to Florida's primary ploy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1469

Bill Nelson today will file a bill for regional primaries...but first he had to get your attention
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1478

Bill Nelson today: "DNC penalties unacceptable, unacceptable, unacceptable"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1479

Carl Levin and Terry McAuliffe made a deal about primaries in 2004.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1483

Email from Florida DEC chairs saying not to give to the DNC or candidates.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1481

Pelosi says it is not Florida's fault at all. So if the speaker says it I must be wrong.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1567

"Florida Democrats are all for it"...March 2006. All for the early primary that far ahead.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1564

Details on how Florida worked with the GOP to set the early primary date.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1617

Nobody sued Terry McAuliffe when he said Michigan's delegates would not get near Boston.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1638

Nelson and Levin of Michigan file the bill today. It's getting deeper
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1741

My postings about the heartbreak of the Florida primary fiasco.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1607

Florida Dems at convention have button that says "Screw Dean"...very classy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1608

Senate leader ponders suing 'rogue states' over primary
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1527

If you don't register to vote, should your vote count? I mean besides the rules.

Why can't foriegn national's votes count? I mean besides the rules.

Why can't newly released felon's votes count? I mean besides the rules.

Why can't 12 year old's votes count? I mean besides the rules.

Why can't I vote twice? Once for me and once for my lazy ass brother in law? I mean besides the rules.

But thanks for bashing Democratic Floridians from the depths of stupidity. It really comes across as transparent.

Come on back and discuss this with me again, if you would like, after you've educated yourself, and after you've tried to dump some of your rant of errors.

That is a personal attack.

Tweety sez, "Take a seat, F-L-A !"

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madflordian is not one of them that is against seating the delegates.

That hasn't happened. Really, check out that journal. madfloridian has always insisted the DNC and Howard Dean were right, unlike the people disputing (including DEMS) what was going on. Learning is a good thing!

If we want honest then we want our party voters votes to count.

wah wah wah break the rules and you pay the price. Florida decided to move up its primary date, so what the rules don't apply to them now? If we allow FL and MI to break the rules, this will set a precedent that any state can break them in the future. Just b/c it benefits YOUR candidate doesn't make it right. If Obama won MI and FL bet you wouldn't be as upset over the issue huh?

The Democrats went along with it for whatever BS reason.

The voters had no control over what their party officials did.

If you think the voters should be punished for something their state party did, then OK, I'm glad you admit it.

But I expect the votes to matter, so maybe I think too much of the DNC if so many people here think I'm wrong.

And I guarantee you that Obama or Edwards would be calling for the delegates to count. Obama's supporters here on this forum want to disenfranchise voters.

First off, AP CNN and Obama proved they didn't understand this concept in Nevada, as all of Obama's supporters fell down in worship. If they continue to manifest these same stupidity symptoms regarding Florida and Michigan, perhaps the DNC needs to teach them the truth of reality.

In the mean time, all of the other candidates and their supporters really do need to propagate the nonbinding issue, flying right in the face of the Obama stupidity.

Where's the part of that document which refers to the right to vote to determine a candidate of a particular political party?

It would be wrong to count the Michigan or Florida votes.

How's your brother, Jon ??

Mika sez," Total bullshiite,Joshie!"

I can't see both states being completely locked out of the convention. My guess is that they'll reach a compromise, and 1/2 the delegates will be seated, or their votes will only count for a fraction of a full vote.

They may also put a twist on it, and seat both parties as uncommitted on the first ballot, just to keep things interesting...

Is the right right on the Clintons?
Hillary's campaign tactics are causing some liberals to turn against the couple.
January 26, 2008

Something strange happened the other day. All these different people -- friends, co-workers, relatives, people on a liberal e-mail list I read -- kept saying the same thing: They've suddenly developed a disdain for Bill and Hillary Clinton. Maybe this is just a coincidence, but I think we've reached an irrevocable turning point in liberal opinion of the Clintons.

The sentiment seems to be concentrated among Barack Obama supporters. Going into the campaign, most of us liked Hillary Clinton just fine, but the fact that tens of millions of Americans are seized with irrational loathing for her suggested that she might not be a good Democratic nominee. But now that loathing seems a lot less irrational. We're not frothing Clinton haters like ... well, name pretty much any conservative. We just really wish they'd go away.

The big turning point seems to be this week, when the Clintons slammed Obama for acknowledging that Ronald Reagan changed the country. Everyone knows Reagan changed the country. Bill and Hillary have said he changed the country. But they falsely claimed that Obama praised Reagan's ideas, saying he was a better president than Clinton -- something he didn't say...
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-chait26jan26,0,7890763.column

Trying to seat the delegates of the states taken off the grid by the DNC is undemocratic and unDemocratic, which is precisely what the Clintons are all about.

But why bother....ignorance is bliss.