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The fact that Hillary got 17% more votes than Obama in FL is only due to name recognition

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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:20 PM
Original message
The fact that Hillary got 17% more votes than Obama in FL is only due to name recognition
since none of the candidates were allowed to campaign down there, it's mostly just residue name recognition.

The fact Obama got 1/3 of the vote without even campaigning there speaks volumes. I'm sure if FL were on Super Tuesday and actually counted, Obama would have won the state easily.

As it is, Clinton has won nothing. She merely proved what a vulnerable candidate she is going into the real contests next Tuesday.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yep, nobody in Florida knows who Obama is.
Because they don't have cable or TV or radio.

And they weren't watching daytime tv when the networks pre-empted their shows for the Kennedy endorsement.

Seriously, you're so cute!
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. A lot people voted absentee.
That's all name recognition.
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Hoof Hearted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. You guys just can't stop yourselves from INSULTING Florida voters, can you?
Obama ran TV ads seen in FL, against the agreement made by all but honored by Edwards and Clinton.

But he still got his ASS handed to him.

All of them had fund raisers in FL, Obama had one (admittedly minor) press meet in FL after the agreement. Edwards and Clinton, none.

But he still got his ASS handed to him.


Why, oh why, would you insult the electorate of Florida by saying that they were just too uninformed and dumb to know who Obama is?
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. nation-wide ad.....
he is the first candidate to run a nation-wide ad...not that it matters...
http://adage.com/campaigntrail/
Clinton Camp Cries Foul Over Cable Buy
Posted by Ira Teinowitz on 01.21.08 @ 05:51 PM

WASHINGTON (AdAge.com) -- Illinois Sen. Barack Obama is launching the first national advertising of the Democratic presidential campaign -- a cable buy on CNN and MSNBC of a biographical spot -- and he's immediately getting ripped by rival Sen. Hillary Clinton for the purchase. (Post continues after the spot)

The Clinton campaign is complaining that by allowing viewers in all states to see the spots, the national buy violates a pledge made by each Democratic candidate not to compete in Florida. That state ignored a Democratic Party task force request and moved its primary before Feb. 1, prompting the Democratic National Committee to say the Florida primary wouldn't count toward delegates. Each of the major candidates subsequently pledged not to compete for votes in the state's primary.

In a statement today, the Clinton campaign called the Obama spot a "flagrant disregard" of that pledge.

"There is no question that these ads are a clear and blatant violation of the early-state pledge that Sen. Obama and the other leading Democratic candidates signed last year," said the Clinton campaign statement. "The early-state pledge was crystal clear in its prohibition against any kind of campaign activity (outside of fundraising) in states that do not adhere to the DNC calendar. There is no ambiguity. Among the list of prohibited activities are 'electronic advertising that reaches a significant percentage of the voters in the aforementioned state.'"


"Both national cable networks told us it would be impossible for us to run advertising nationally that excluded only Florida. For that reason we consulted with the South Carolina Democratic Party Chair, Carol Fowler, who told us unequivocally she did not consider this to be in violation of pledge made to the early states," said Obama campaign spokesman Bill Burton.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #23
37. you KNOW Obama shrinks the Clintons' lead when he campaigns in person. He's done it every
Edited on Wed Jan-30-08 12:02 AM by cryingshame
other place.

I don't think too many O. supporters would claim he'd have won FL.

But don't pretend Hillary didn't have a huge lead up until a little while ago EVERYWHERE based soley on name recognition.

And don't be dishonest and compare reading about Obama or seeing him covered on Fox News and hearing him speak or getting a chance to ask him questions.

The Clintons inhabited the WH for 8 years and gave Janet Reno a fairly important job, remember?
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Hoof Hearted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #37
44. So they only get Fox news in Florida now? Who knew?
:rofl:

I LOVE this thread!
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thoughtcrime1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #23
68. See you on Tuesday tough guy
We'll see whose ASS is getting handed to whom.
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GalleryGod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #23
69. Nebraska defends Florida...how cute. I'LL GLADLY INSULT ANY
Floridian who in fact, (and some 400,000 Fla. Dems, DID) voted 4 or MORE weks ago.

Nice Robo-Voting Folks! Have another Yellow Bird.
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Hoof Hearted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #69
72. Kick for daylight on those insulting 1,000,000 + voters.
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
28. Really....
stop now before you look even sillier.
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ZinZen Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #5
49. and they voted absentee around Dec and early Jan
before Iowa. I think the number was around 49%. Obama did not begin to really take until his Iowa win.
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. 97% do
Edited on Tue Jan-29-08 10:24 PM by jackson_dem
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NoBorders Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. Name rec isn't that simple
in elections and voting. You don't vote for someone just b/c you heard the name. It's more like 'brand', and the Clinton brand is more well known in FL. Obama has had to work harder to build up his 'brand' in the primary states. He didn't have that opportunity in FL. This will definitely be a challenge for him super tuesday.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
30. Yes, I had never heard of him until today
when someone managed to send us a coded message via carrier pigeon.
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Hoof Hearted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Yes, but when did you learn how to read? They have schools in FL now?
:rofl:
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Well, we had to get a visiting yankee to read it to us...
since none of us ain't had no book lernin.

Honestly, is this not the single dumbest talking point to come out of the Obama politburo?
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
33. You really think seeing and speaking to a candidate compares to reading a newspaper?
You're so cute!
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #33
55. How many people in a large state
actually see and speak to a candidate?

1%? 2%?

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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. Poor Florida, behind the Iron Curtain, without internet or tv or news...
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #2
38. that's the same as seeing a candidate in person? Asking them questions? Really?
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #38
50. If the only way Obama can influence anyone is to do it in person he'll be a hilarious
president.
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Hoof Hearted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #50
73. Yep. That's going to have to be one hell of a campaign tour. He'll need animatrons
and doubles to take up the slack. Obanimatrons, lol.
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Not Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. I live in Orlando, we've been seeing Obama ads for a week now.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
39. WOW a whole week! Compared to 8 years of Clintons inhabiting the White House.
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:23 PM
Original message
The Obama campaign's released talking point is a joke. Obama has 97% name recognition
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:24 PM
Original message
People don't KNOW Obama like they know Hillary.
Edited on Tue Jan-29-08 10:25 PM by calteacherguy
There was no campaign there, and no chance to get to know their choices.

Still, Obama got 33% of the vote, and the majority of votes post-SC. Amazing!
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
15. Obama ran ads there but still will lose by 350,000 votes with 97% name rec. Ouch!
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
17. How can losing by 17% be counted as the "majority of votes post-SC"?
Edited on Tue Jan-29-08 11:11 PM by DinoBoy
Or by "post-SC" do you mean to include SC?

ON EDIT: I just did the math, and even adding South Carolina to Florida, Clinton wins more votes than Obama, Obama has 847.000 and Clinton has 973.000 votes, which means she got 53% of the two person total in those two states.
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Hoof Hearted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
24. Florida UGH. Florida not know how to watch TV. UGH. Florida not have internet. UGH.


Obama campaign talking point depiction of Florida voters.


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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Good one
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 02:39 AM
Response to Original message
56. A bunch of states will never get a visit from a candidate
how many will campaign in Alaska? Wyoming? Maine? North Dakota?

You're grasping at straws.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 03:36 AM
Response to Original message
62. But I thought people KNEW that they disliked Hillary?
I thought she was so unlikable and all. By the logic of Hillary's detractors, shouldn't that cost her votes, being known like that?
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Maven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. Nonsense.
Voters have television sets. And newspapers. And computers. They've watched the developments, read the articles, seen the endorsements etc. ALL the candidates were at a disadvantage because they couldn't run a ground operation. Obama was at no greater disadvantage than anyone else, and in fact he had TV ads that appeared there when no one else's did.

Your candidate lost tonight, but he won in SC. The race is still open, but stop this sore loser routine.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
6. The new DU meme tonight, I've noticed
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Maven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. It's almost as though they're coordinating at some central location
:think: :tinfoilhat:
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Yup
I've long believed Obama has operatives in the blogosphere. Tonight almost confirms this.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. Hmmmmm....
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #8
40. Funny, last night a Hillary supporter POSTED he was sending out PM's. Projection much?
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. How do the Obamatons get "on message" so quickly?
It raises some questions...
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #9
43. You mean like that stupid crap about snubbing?
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #43
59. No need for a covert organizing effort -
it was all over the news. Every hour or so. Pictures, discussions, speculation.

Had he just stood there and shook her hand, it all could've been avoided.
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
10. Ya, Obama's not been getting 24/7 news coverage
Florida totally has a different set of cable networks and stuff....
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Cass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
11. You guys crack me up.
:rofl:

You do realize that if Obama doesn't have "name recognition" by now, he's screwed six ways from Sunday?
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Hoof Hearted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #11
29. They didn't think this TP through very well did they? It's pretty hilarious thou
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ncabot22 Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
12. MSNBC said
Most people who voted for Hillary did so last month; most who voted for Obama did this month. He received over 500,000 votes. I think that is great. There were several Hillary supporters who posted polls showing Obama losing FL by 25-30 points. I'm thrilled he did so well.
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MagsDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
14. lol lol lol lol lol
You keep telling yourself that. Man, Obama supporters REALLY need a ride on the reality train. You'd have to be deaf, dumb, and blind not to know who Obama is by now.
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bluedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
16. hello people...we have cable
we read newspapers.....by golly.we have the internet .........we do know who Obama is......and we ain't buying it
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. And, Florida isn't a bunch of old people
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massromantic Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
20. No...
Hillary got more votes in Florida because of that all important Janet Reno endorsement. Obvs.
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never_get_over_it Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
22. And her HUGE name recognition
will help her next week too....and the states with larger populations who have larger primary turn outs that name recognition will help even more. IA was a small caucus very tuned in interested voters - NH voters are VERY into their primary - MI Hillary only one on ballot - SC lets face it a lot of black folks DID get out to vote for Barack because he is black - and FL - LARGE turnout and the name recognition did it for Hillary..

Name recognition is priceless in elections and SHE HAS IT.....

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Hoof Hearted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
25. I love this thread.
:-)
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
26. Yeah, Obama never makes the news so way down there
in Florida nobody has ever heard of him.

:eyes:
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AGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. The light went out in Florida about a year go and it never came back :(
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. I thought it was Georgia
the light went out in. ;-)
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #36
41. It was the night they hanged an innocent man. n/t
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Hoof Hearted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #41
48. So don't trust your soul to no backwoods Florida voters. . .
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
42. So.
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LiberalHeart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
45. Hillary who?
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jlake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
46. Why don't you give it a rest. Since the results of Florida do not matter to you, don't
talk about them.
And it is a moot point. 1 week and we will know how people feel, if not the nominee.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
47. Actually this makes me wish a Clinton (any Clinton) was down there campaigning in 2000. n/t
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
51. Her 850,000 votes is more than Obama got in Iowa, Nevada, NH & SC combined
Edited on Wed Jan-30-08 01:02 AM by HughMoran
It's not nice to discount so many people out of hand like this.
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VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
52. like floridians can't read and don't watch the news. neither have campaigned here in SD, but i know
all i need to know by this point about which one of those two i support. and it's not obama.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 02:35 AM
Response to Original message
53. LOL
What is John Edwards' name recognition after two runs and being the VP candidate?

Do you think Obama is struggling to get his name out there?

Pure silliness.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 02:38 AM
Response to Original message
54. Because Florida exists in a magical plane of existance, sealed off completely from
the outside world. Nobody can enter, nobody can leave. All Floridians care about is their magical parties where they sing and dance in the swamps and beaches.
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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 02:40 AM
Response to Original message
57. How ridiculous! As if Obama hasn't been all over MSM for weeks.
You can't get away with that now. He's absolutely as well known as Hillary; perhaps, not as well loved, but certainly has as much name recognition. You're right about the vulnerability. I suspect both Hillary and Obama will be very vulnerable going into all of the primaries. Cheers!
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Beausoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 02:41 AM
Response to Original message
58. LOL! Thanks for the good belly laugh.
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 03:06 AM
Response to Original message
60. Please, stop insulting the people of Florida!!!
Everybody knew who he was and some newspapers even endorsed him (such as The Palm Beach Post). Florida was an even playing field since no one campaigned there and it's a state that it's pretty representative of the other major states in the country in its demographic. Obama had an equal chance to do well there the same as Hillary. No excuses!!!
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 03:11 AM
Response to Original message
61. Tuesday will take care of itself; doesn't need a Nostradamus.
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Lucinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 04:50 AM
Response to Original message
63. Interesting thread.
:D
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TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 04:53 AM
Response to Original message
64. I do not know if Obama would have won easily but I do know Hill won nothing
and her grandstanding hurts the party and fairness in general. FL democratic leadership KNEW very well what would happen if they tried to cut in line and they did it anyway. Other states could not do it, Michigan was penalized so should FL.
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Yossariant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 04:54 AM
Response to Original message
65. Hilarious, desperate spin.
Yeah, those Florida voters must be a real bunch of dummies.

:crazy:
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 06:50 AM
Response to Original message
66. A simple congratulation would be classier. But what am I saying?
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 06:53 AM
Response to Original message
67. No TV, no print media in Fla? No internet? No MSNBC? No Oprah? Really?
Poor backward state! :eyes:
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GalleryGod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
70. 400,000 Fla. Dems voted more than 4 weeks AGO.
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DesEtoiles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
71. k
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Politicub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
74. Yeah, Obama hasn't been on TV at all in the past few months
Why, when I turn on CNN or MSNBC, I barely hear his name. Who is this Obama you speak of? It is true that national media doesn't broadcast in Florida. Something about the Gulf of Mexico and the Atlantic ocean being on either side of the state. :sarcasm:
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
75. BULLSHIT..IT WAS PLANNED LONG AGO..WHAT PART OF THIS HAVE YOU PEOPLE STILL NOT GRASPED?
Edited on Wed Jan-30-08 12:22 PM by flyarm
the fix was in in fla long ago and many of us in fla have written about it to exhaustion!

spend a little time now after Edwards was fucked here yesterday with a fix..and damn well educate yourself ....will you ...now... damn it!!

read Madfloridian's journals..will you or stfu about what you know nothing about!

fly..a 2004 FLA dem delegate
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here_is_to_hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
76. Your math sucks. eom
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agdlp Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
77. I pity the Obama supporters..Where is your sense of humility? (70 % of base under 29, thats why)
Immature, childish, envy, evil and so low on humility..

get a life !
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
78. True. They don.t have TV, print or internet in Fla never been subjected to this:
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
79. florida voters dont have TV's? news papers?
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
80. *sigh* Okay, I know we have some problems in Florida. But for Pete's Sake!
We are neither illiterate nor living in the Stone Age. We do get cable television. Yep, even in the Everglades. This whole line of argument is beyond pathetic. And no, this is not coming from a preferential position. I can't stand either Clinton OR Obama.

Anyone swallowing this line of bull deserves to buy some oceanfront property in Kansas.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
81. this also shows such disdain for dem voters.
its very icky
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