Do You Like Me?

Yes
No
Maybe

Check box.

If yes, let's sit together at recess.

******************************************************

Ah, grade school. The grown-ups who teach the wee ones are perpetually amused that the more things change, the more they stay the same. It is now emerging that there may have been mixed signals in the passed note about whether or not little Barack and little Hillary would sit together.

Now, the bickering between the little boys and the little girls moves into whether or not a note actually existed in the first place, and if so, where the chain of custody broke down that short-circuited the obligatory X by correct answer.

We grown-up Edwards supporters are stifling laughs at the mock seriousness of it all. These problems matter.

Granted, the lighting issues of such a joint appearance would have been tricky for all but the most skilled of Industrial Light & Magic's crew (the ones who always get their Oscars at the "separate ceremony," held previously with some B lister emceeing).

After all, one candidate sucks so hard she bends light. Yes, the grown-ups realize that the little boys do sometimes get the short end of the stick in these bizarre little made-up encounters that the little girls manufacture. Officially, we have to remain above the fray. But we know, little Barack. We know.





- Dave

Edwards will be the last one standing. The grown-ups always get to stay late at the party.


KEEP THE MOMENTUM GOING!

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(Please give the above link a kick for John!)

"Oh my God! I've become the world's oldest baby. Men don't get their moo-moo from a baa-baa. They get their moo-moo from a big-boy cup."

Time to put the little http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=7406808&mesg_id=7406808">Milhousey supporters to bed, and have grown-up beverages from the chilled mugs.

:toast:

- Dave

give me some gristle on which I can gnaw....

Tom

... over whether or not there was an overture for Clinton to sit beside Obama at the SOTU.

- Dave

Obama wasn't having any of Clinton's stuff with Kennedy.

I have been away for a while and I am not quite up to speed on this business.

For I was off in New York City, falling in love.

Things just happen, irregardless.

Tom

... sitting in a tree!

: )

:toast:

- Dave

get all caught up in things deemed damned essential, and Life takes a few steps back and drop-kicks you right in the crotch.

By the time you catch your breath, you have a whole new perspective.

Tom

... if not, here's some ice in a baggie.

Not sure if you're over the moon or doubled over in pain.

- Dave

get all caught up in things deemed damned essential, and Life takes a few steps back and drop-kicks you right in the crotch.

By the time you catch your breath, you have a whole new perspective.

Tom

There are quite a few of us that do not join that fight. It is a sad thing to watch and I strongly suspect that there are some of these people who are disruptors, paid and otherwise. It is sad because this should have been a year for Democrats to think in terms of a strong team to put forward, and I still have hopes it can happen. I still would like an Obama and Edwards team. I like both of these men and think that together they would make a strong working team. Call me a dreamer, but I'm proud to be one.

Take care.

... many Edwards supporters are quietly stifling giggles at the absurdity, but we really do see through the little reindeer games the Clinton Campaign is playing.

I guess that makes Obama the teacher's pet.

:rofl:

- Dave

"...the little boys do sometimes get the short end of the stick in these bizarre little made-up encounters that the little girls manufacture"

Gender bias, much?

... most certainly laugh about this stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boys_are_stupid,_throw_rocks_at_them!">Misandry. Look into it. It's the opposite of misogyny, and it's about damn time that the word got some play around here.

My partner and I saw an exhibit of the artist's stuff, and it's brilliant.

- Dave

Are you kidding me?

Yes, men are so persecuted in this country, especially in politics. Do you even fucking hear yourself, or does the Hillary (and woman) hate in your head drown everything else out?

... one you don't think is worthy of civil, academic discussion?

- Dave

... engage? Sure.

Wipe a courtroom floor? Probably.

- Dave

I tried to have a civil discussion with him here earlier. You cannot speak rationally to him. He will twist whatever you say and deflect whatever point you try to make. if you say anything that could be construed as negative he will attack. I eventually ignored him which is what I suggest you do.

... there is a claim to be a lawyer. Rule 11 applies to lawyers who don't sign their homework, or who turn in work not worth signing.

Citing Rule 11 to a lawyer is like whipping out a Super Soaker filled with garlicky holy water on a vampire.

It's especially funny to watch a layperson do it when they catch them totally by surprise.

- Dave

You got called on your little deception, and you don't like it.

And now I see you've found a kindred spirit.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4283899

:eyes:

... clearly state that you should show respect for unrepresented parties, do they not?

- Dave

You may not approach an unrepresented party in an ongoing matter without informing them of your role therein.

You may not act in a fashion that disparages the integrity of the profession.

The Code has nothing to do with "respecting" others, generally.

And in fact, they contain a large section on a lawyer's duty to prevent the unauthorized practice of law.

... and which state are we talking about?

- Dave

New York, New Jersey and California.

... would have lines of cases of disciplinary cases for an idle associate to pull up for your perusal, I would imagine.

- Dave

That's only in Massachusetts.

New York has a Committee on Professional Ethics.

And I assure you that disagreeing with someone over sexual politics, even in harsh terms, does not rise to the level of professional misconduct. The aim of the Code isn't censorship, it's ethical propriety.

... that you'd find the disciplinary precedents on the bounds of conduct on message boards to be illuminating.

- Dave

has to do with providing legal advice--the creation of an attorney-client relationship thereby, and in addition the unauthorized practice of law.

... where I was clearly drawing the analogy *to* the legal setting, in which the burden of proof would be much higher than what was in evidence to that point in the thread, where your outrageous accusations were concerned.

Pleadings require name and license number, right?

That bar certificate number does NOT give you entree into an exclusive club allowed to discuss the law and legal issues. And if you want to make THAT representation, I can point you to a remedial First Amendment course, and tell you exactly the route to take to get there.

- Dave

However, as I said before I'd be careful about misrepresenting yourself--even on a message board.

And I'm not giving you my license numbers. They can be used to find addresses and telephone numbers.

... FYI.

- Dave

What are you referring to?

... rules aren't just for those with a law degree and a pretty piece of paper with a number on it.

- Dave

I have years of experience under my belt that cost a lot of hard work.

You are not an authority on everything because you read a few books on the subject, freelance. The fact is, you pretended to have a level of expertise which you don't have, and unfortunately you tangled with someone who does.

... being done by your associates?

- Dave

... "I'm sorry."

- Dave

You've acted condescending and arrogant.

And I do think your posts show a disdain for powerful women that merits examination.

... permit you to try for the examination, if you'd care to sign your name and license number to a pleading.

Otherwise, you might do well to take a short recess and have an associate do some work for you on those disciplinary case lines, with regard to conduct in the public arena of a message board.

If you'd care to do a sidebar, that might be advisable, too, because I've about had it with your unfounded and intentionally hurled accusations of misogyny against anyone who dares to criticize the corporatist client, er, candidate.

- Dave

and have never used the "S" word. But you make such a concerted effort day-by-day that it's hard not to notice.

And I need not take advisement from you, thanks. We've already established you're a bit of a poseur in the legal arena.

... is that you couldn't hang with the OP's point, without resorting to unfounded accusations of misogyny in a public arena, as an officer of the court and a member of the bar.

Really, quit digging.

- Dave

wrapped around some ludicrous claim of misandry in politics, obviously the latest in argumentative gadgetry for the fear-of-castration crowd.

I started out working for the USA's office.

Feel free to answer as a reply to the OP, so that we can more easily track each other's responses.

- Dave

... first, how I studiously avoided using the term "Ladies and Gentlemen" to address you. By using "class," I encompass you all, without making gender distinctions. I include you all. I invite you all to participate.

Notice, secondly, class, how we first have the accusation of "gender bias, much?", followed by a rant about how gender bias is only one-sided.

"Are you kidding me?" The reponder immediately scoffs at the word, "misandry," as if someone just handed over a frozen ferret head.

"Yes, men are so persecuted in this country, especially in politics. Do you even fucking hear yourself, or does the Hillary (and woman) hate in your head drown everything else out?"

Here, the responder projects a sort of blind outrage, and lashes out at any criticism leveled at Senator Clinton as woman-hating misogyny (a concept tacitly embraced, in the same post in which its opposite is rejected and scorned).

But I think that we can all think of examples in everyday life of both misogyny and misandry.

Misandry. You may not have ever heard the word before, but as you learn more about the concept, think about how it might be playing a role in the primary process, and how it might come into play in the General Election.

- Dave

You think people can't see through your sophistry.

Your pattern of behavior on this board evinces an unhealthy fixation and might be a lesson to cognitive psychologists, but no one else.

Class dismissed.

... rather than engaging with someone who has done some coursework and some lifework on gender issues.

Some Native American tribes have a concept called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berdache">berdache by anthropologists, of a "two spirit," or "twin spirit," to describe gay men, who were believed to be able to see both the male and female points of view.

- Dave

And everything in between, including "two-spirit" people.

Your take on the topic is totally upside-down.

... by the quality of their stances. Having come to the conclusion that the only woman still running is not the best choice does not make me a misogynist.

- Dave

have nothing to do with "stances."

... so plead your case. Broad, sweeping statements won't do. You have to plead with enough particularity to give the other party notice, to be able to reasonably defend.

You can't scream "racist," "bigot," "woman-hater," etc. in a crowded discussion board in a drive-by. Make your case.

I can give you policy after policy on which I came to find that the candidate I initially supported (which would have made me an enlightened kinda guy in your book, no doubt, had I kept my eyes wide shut to her stances) was way off base from my own views.

- Dave

As we might say in the profession, res ipsa loquitur.

Goodnight.

For lay folk, http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/Rule11.htm">Rule 11 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure is titled: Signing Pleadings, Motions, and Other Papers; Representations to the Court; Sanctions.

This is the Rule that gets lawyers sanctioned for shoddy complaints and motions. It often has a counterpart in state rules, too, not to mention the state's canon of ethics, which require a lawyer in his or her dealings with the public to bring credit to the profession.

- Dave

tried to warn ya, logical arguments wont work.

I just tried to engage him on the issues and didn't go after the foundation of his argument which was of course whatever we said was gender biased. It really pisses me off he has a kucinich avatar.

... having worked four years at the Harvard Law Library, and having handed a few "prestigious" law firms' their rear ends in court. Snotty law students don't suddenly change their stripes when they flip the tassle on their mortarboard.

- Dave

You're not even a lawyer are you?

No litigation experience whatsoever, which was obvious when you quoted FRCP 11 to me--probably one of the least-invoked rules, particularly in the corporate context.

In other words, talking out of your ass.

... as a pro se, I've left a few of the most "prestigious" lawyers red-faced with shame, when I caught them red-handed in open court with the precedents.

There's one Rule 12(f) motion ruling I'm particularly proud of, in which the judge pretty much told them to knock it off, that their argument had been run circles around with someone who'd never even been to law school.

Tell the truth. Did you slit pages out of library books to gain an unfair advantage over your students? Or did you see it happen?

- Dave

Although I see you're trying to dovetail with the topic of this one.

I did not lie. and you can try to scream foul as much as you want but you cannot change the fact. This thread shows that you are angry and combative, welcome to my ignore list.

as soon as we receive a retainer.

Meanwhile, I would be careful about misrepresenting yourself, or in any case I would be sure to make clear you're not offering legal advice.

... can take anonymous pot shots on message boards, but the last time I checked Rule 11, you have to sign your pleading.

- Dave

... shoot from the hip first, THEN put someone else on LEXIS to do the research for you when you're called up short. IF the client can pay the LEXIS bill.

Lawyers like that get their bells rung all the time. It's fun to watch, and it's even more fun to be the one doing the bell-ringing.

- Dave

This is an INTERNET MESSAGE BOARD.

What exactly are you expecting?

... to act with a modicum of respect for the canons of his or her profession.

- Dave

In fact I have the utmost respect of my peers. You know, actual attorneys?

... and you're required to show that respect to unrepresented parties, too.

- Dave

The type of impropriety which would constitute an infraction of the Code has nothing to do with minor day-to-day interaction. It isn't a Code of Manners.

... on the line of cases of disciplinary cases of overzealous lawyers on message boards.

It's a fascinating area of law right now.

Shoot from the hip, get the associate to look it up when you're caught, bill a client.

- Dave

You raised issues of law.

... when you called me a woman-hater, on a message board, as an attorney disregarding the canons of ethics.

Quit digging.

- Dave

... since you're not accustomed to doing your own research, and there probably aren't any associates for you to collar yet.

- Dave

I don't care, Dave, I love you anyway.

And I will take your insight to the bank.


OK, alcohol and this machine should probably best be left unconnected.

Tom

:toast:

I promise I won't remember to ask you who s/he is when you sober up.

I really do hope it is true love, or at least a memorable and enthralling fling.

- Dave

... my partner and I are coming up on 14 years together, and somehow we've managed to keep a pretty healthy circle of friends of about every conceivable letter combination of the LGBT community, without attracting Salem Witch Trial types, bearing pine pitch torches and screaming, "MISOGYNY!!!".

; )

So, yeah, I'm a f&%##^^&^$y type (and one of the uppity kind that doesn't see Second Class stamped anywhere on his birth certificate).

- Dave

Hasta'....

... softly tiptoeing out the door.

- Dave

... class, I would suggest a few activities:

1. Look at some of the courses being offered this spring in http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~wgs/courses/courses.htm">Women, Gender, and Sexuality Studies.

2. Identify 3 popular shows' recent treatments of misandry.

3. Identify 3 popular shows' recent treatments of misogyny.

- Dave

You hadn't done that in the last few hours, at least.

And amazing--your male gender somehow didn't keep you from passing muster with the admissions board! :rofl:

... an acceptable form of class discussion at yours?

I am disappointed to see that the course catalog doesn't seem to have anything about the role gender might play in American presidential politics. It's timely; I hope that there will be some seminars and serious in-depth discussions to look at how misandry, misogyny, and blowbacks against each could play out in the primaries and general.

It seems like a natural joint lecture to do with the Government Department.

- Dave

... let me give you some extra credit. Discuss this example of "http://www.davidandgoliathtees.com/index.php?mode=DETAIL&parent=SRCH&pid=3236&page=1&perpage=16
">Trendy Wendy" in the context of gender studies.
- Dave

cooties

Where IS my spray...I think DU needs hosed down

:rofl:

I wonder if they make that as silly string? Kids would eat that up!

- Dave

is so much fun too (even as an adult)

... some silly string, right about now.

:cry:

- Dave

my hubby and myself are a bit...shell shocked

I will wait to find out why, no way did he give that kind of speech last night then this?

Something is up.

But, for the moment, we have no idea what we will do now. We are slightly pissed too, but not at JE...I think you probably understand

... is the artist. My partner and I recently saw an exhibit of his stuff with a group of friends, and his is a side-splittingly funny, zany, and charming look at how we all develop those "boy/girl, boy/boy, girl/girl" lines of code in our programming.

Some of the http://www.davidandgoliathtees.com/index.php?mode=HC">draft artwork of what become wall-sized paintings end up on his t-shirts.

He says that many of his most "edgy" Trendy Wendy paintings go to divorced wealthy women in Manhattan. Go figure.

- Dave

:rofl:

I like you a lot so I'll check the yes box.

:rofl:

NICE!

High five!

(I love volleyball, even when I get a "close-up" view of it.)

- Dave

... imagine that HRC is the Democratic Nominee.

Do you think that the concept of misandry (and its lesser, more socially acceptable forms) might cause blowback in some key swing states?

Sometimes a very serious point can be gotten at through a little bit of humor.

- Dave

The Edwards/grown up myth is exactly that.

and so is the claim that his supporters are wiser and more grown up. I see quite a bit of evidence to contradict that.

This sparkling brand new meme, is as meaningless as most other campaign season memes.

Let's look at this shiny object that Edwards supporters have been quick to seize on:

John Edwards in the NH debate, and others preceding it, did not take on that "grown-up" role. He was every bit as petty and opportunistic as the others in the sniping.

John Edwards assumed the mantle of "grown up" at the SC debate. Were he in the position Obama is, the sniping would have been between JE and Hillary. She would have brought up hedge funds and his prior voting record, and he would have responded with something like Hsu.

The only reason he can claim this, is because he's not a top contender.

... as the Clinton campaign is suggesting?

Yes, no, or maybe?

- Dave

:rofl:

Put them back on! For the love of marmalade, put them back on!

:rofl:

- Dave

... are you sure you're a Democrat?

:rofl:

- Dave

(Right about now, I'm having second thoughts. Maybe I should've asked you if you have a webcam first.)

:rofl:

- Dave

... er, so to speak. Well, the same bait and tackle, since I carry it with me, but just leading with a different... oh, nevermind.

:toast:

- Dave

Yes, I do. Why do you ask?

... some of the more complex multi-jurisdictional ERISA and Exchange Act cases pending in the SDNY right now are there with a lot of my spadework.

Mind if I ask which sector(s) you represent?

- Dave

I don't represent any particular sector of industry--the scope of my work is defined more by its international character.

But I've done some ERISA work, pro bono. Did you work for a firm?

Companies like http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=federal+arbitration+act+halliburton+kbr">Halliburton and KBR use the Federal Arbitration Act to great effect, to keep certain matters on the QT.

Like many legal devices, it has its good uses and bad, its good practitioners and bad.

ERISA and Exchange Act stuff - and the intersection of the two (e.g., Enron employees, Polaroid employees, GM/Delphi employees, etc.) - is pretty arcane stuff, especially when you throw in the PSLRA.

ADA, EEO, and related employment law can also be quite complex, and often involve pre-emption.

In my years of hard work, I've done down in the trenches spadework in all of them, AND helped the clients (plaintiffs, not corporate coffered hourly billing attorneys) get their stories out into the media.

One very strong women with whom I worked cleaned the clock of a certain BushCo. Bank in a maternity leave discrimination case. The stories on that broke because: (1) I understood how to use FOIA to force access to a sealed case file; and (2) I had the bona fides with the Boston media to get the previously-sealed case file docs into the hands of the right, progressive press members.

If you're asking if I'm available for 1099 work on the side, sure.

- Dave

to keep costs down and ensure more predictable outcomes, not conceal information. Many arbitral decisions are published, as you probably know.

Good practitioners and bad, as you say.

And good on you for the hard work done on behalf of your plaintiffs. It sounds like you've gotten a lot done by using the media as well as the legal system to your advantage. Meanwhile, don't be so quick to caricature "corporate coffered hourly billing attorneys." Yeah, a lot of them are in it for the bucks and have no personality, let alone scruples. But a lot of them are working stiffs who might have started out in less glamorous jobs, and who still devote their time to more worthy causes.

As for the 1099 work, the endless supply of graduating law students keeps us staffed to the gills. But I hope you keep doing what you're doing, work-wise.

David

As a freshman in college, I cross-registered at the Law School, to take a course in the origins of Medieval English law. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=charles+donahue+professor+harvard">Charles Donahue is a hoot.

All that Anglophile genealogy stuff going back to Henry II and beyond from the age of 8, you know, had me itching for a challenge.

; )

Interned with the WVAG (a Dem for whom I'd volunteered as a kid), turning down an offer from the WV Chief Justice, Margaret Workman (a strong woman who served nearly-as-strong tea in her chambers) to start up an advocacy program for battered women statewide (I'd already accepted the AG's offer, and couldn't - in good conscience - renege, though I was tempted).

During that internship, I found billings made by IBM that were fraudulent, to the tune of millions of dollars. Working in the Contracts & Bonds Division was not the glamorous job others clamored for, but the time spent poring over the contracts (and my understanding of what constituted an upgrade that did or didn't trigger an escalation clause) allowed the AG to go on the PR offensive on the computers-in-schools program.

Worked all four years of College Work Study at the Law School, and saw the full gamut of law school student behavior: the good, the bad, the ugly, and the downright dirty. Grew very practiced at putting legal hotshots in their place.

Took that into the pro se arena, and have handed more than one white shoe lawyer (and I use that term strictly) his or her posterior in open court. It's fun to watch them berate the associates on the way out, especially when it's a precedent their firm pushed in the first place that you use against them, precisely on point.

I imagine you saw a lot in the USAO.

:toast:

- Dave

I appreciate your domestic violence work--I've been involved for the past five years with a group called Safe Horizon in New York, which helps battered women navigate the court system and provides other services to help them escape abuse. We started an advocacy project that engages law students from schools around the city to advocate on victims' behalves. It's good experience for them (gets them into court), they like schmoozing with private-sector attorneys (like me) and it's much better for the abuse victims than appearing on their own before the judge. Obviously, we don't let them do everything--we take over when a case gets more complicated--but it seems to be working overall.

As for the USAO, most of my work there was devoted to going after white-collar criminals. I'll tell you more about it at some later time. For now, I've gotta run.

:toast: to you as well.

... you're doing there, all the way around. Helps the victims feel like they have a support network on THEIR side, gives practical experience to the students, and gives the firms involved an early lead and bead on top talent.

My mom helps with the local battered women's shelter, and my sister is a social worker who deals with "distressed" families (e.g., supervised visits, etc.).

You may have an idea of why I bristled now (and I shudder to think what either of the strong women in my immediate family might've done to you if you'd uttered that in their presence).

:rofl:

I'd be mighty interested in hearing more about the white collar stuff. I have stories galore on that, and more treatises than anyone ought on the subject.

:toast:

- Dave

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=mary+jo+white+rich+pardon">She's a strong woman I admire, too.

- Dave

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debevoise_%26_Plimpton">Interestingly enough, given your field of practice, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Jo_White">Mary Jo White is sort of in your field now at one of firms that almost qualifies for the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Circle_%28law%29">Magic Circle.

I imagine you *must* know her.

- Dave

I know of her, of course. We've never worked together, though.

Lawyer jokes!

:toast:

- Dave

... the first time I appeared in the Special Business Litigation Section of the Suffolk Superior Court in Boston (do you genuflect or not as you say that? I never did figure out), I knew the judge was likely to give me that old chestnut.

Sure enough, I got the stern, bushy-browed warning.

"Your Honor, may it please the court, my client and I are reconciled with our decision."

He lost it and laughed. The ice was broken.

- Dave

... I'm on Cootie-trex, and keep a sharp eye on outbreaks.

:rofl:

- Dave