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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:31 PM
Original message
deleted
Edited on Tue Feb-05-08 01:42 PM by redqueen
my question was based on misleading info...
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. In an interview with RS he said he was sorry he trusted Bush wouldn't be hasty
and would let weapon inspections make the determination.

He famously used the words "Didn't think Bush would FUCK it up so badly."
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. During his campaign?
So then Barak's explanation for saying he doesn't know how he'd have voted is... ?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
26. Yes. And Hillary HAD time to join Kerry OPPOSING Bush's DECISION to USE FORCE
while weapon inspections were working, but she CHOSE to support Bush's decision to go to war.


And she and Bill kept supporting Bush on his Iraq decisions with Hillary even joining Lieberman on speaking out against a timetable for withdrawal in June 2006 on the senate floor.

Then Lieberman lost his primary race to Lamont and Hillary started toning down her prowar rhetoric.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
2. No he hadn't
But he did oppose the invasion consistently beginning in Jan 2003, just like he said he would if Bush started pushing for war without diplomacy.

Regardless, even John Kerry is quick to point out Barack got it right and to acknowledge his wisdom and courage in that act. It matters.
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JackORoses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. He was labeled a Flip-flopper, the same would happen to Hillary
Edited on Tue Feb-05-08 01:35 PM by JackORoses
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
4. No, he did not.
That came in 2006 when he was hoping to run again.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. I didn't think so...
Edited on Tue Feb-05-08 01:36 PM by redqueen
but then, if that were the case... why weren't those who are supporting Obama now equally vitriolic against Kerry, for his vote?
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Um, they were
You were here in 2004, weren't you? :shrug:

Quite a few of them went bye bye because of it.

bearfartinthewoods ring a bell?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Nope.
The way I remember it, the most vicious attacks on Kerry back then amounted to punches, compared to this season's full-on body-slamming.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. Whatever
Adios
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Whatever?
Sure... adios.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. I was. It's the reason I didn't support him in the primary in 2004
how do you know that many Obama supporters weren't equally unhappy about JK's vote as they were and are about JE's and HRC's? (love your use of loaded language in calling it vitriolic). Oh, that's right, you can't possibly have a clue as to how most Obama supporters felt about JK's vote. I got into huge fights here about JK's vote 4 years ago. And I still abhor it and believe that he voted out of political expedience, despite my affection and respect for him.
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. If I remember correctly,
he tried to spin it by saying that he didn't vote for the war, he voted to give * the authority to go to war, which is an authority that he feels (felt?) that the POTUS should always have.

It was some bullshit response like that.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. That's far from an apology.
That's what Clinton says, actually.

So why all the seething hatred for Hillary this time around?

It's confusing...
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Kerry wasn't running against Obama.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. I do not think people think anymore-hate just seems to consume them!
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
7. NO he had NOT
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
10. Nope he hadnt
And its one of the main reasons he didnt win IMHO.
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Downtown Hound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
12. He has since come out and admitted it
He has called it the worst vote he ever made. But the scene in 2004 was different. Now with the war being an obvious failure, there's really no reason for HRC not to come out and admit it was a mistake. But Hillary is simply too stubborn to admit she was wrong. That is not okay with me, and it's why she will not get my vote in the primary. But I will for the Democratic nominee in November whoever it is.

There was plenty of criticism of Kerry's Iraq War vote in the 2004 primaries. But in the end, most people came out and supported him in the general election.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
13. Yours is merely repetition of misleading rhetoric.
Edited on Tue Feb-05-08 01:39 PM by AtomicKitten
Russert misleadingly cropped Obama comment to claim he wasn't "firmly wedded against the war"

Summary: Interviewing Barack Obama on Meet the Press, Tim Russert read a quote he attributed to Obama to suggest that he has "not been a leader against the war": "In July of 2004, Barack Obama: 'I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports. ... What would I have done? I don't know,' in terms of how you would have voted on the war." Russert did not quote the very next sentence of Obama's statement, which was, "What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made" for authorizing the war.

During his November 11 Meet the Press interview with Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama (IL) on NBC's Meet the Press, host Tim Russert asserted that "critics will say you've not been a leader against the war," and then read a quote he attributed to Obama: "In July of 2004, Barack Obama: 'I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports. ... What would I have done? I don't know,' in terms of how you would have voted on the war." After quoting two other Obama statements on the war, Russert concluded: "It doesn't seem that you were firmly wedded against the war and that you left some wiggle room that, if you were in the Senate, you may have voted for it." However, in citing Obama's comment "What would I have done? I don't know," Russert did not quote the very next sentence of Obama's statement, which was, "What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made."

Obama made his comment in an interview reported by The New York Times in a July 27, 2004, article: "I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports. ... 'What would I have done? I don't know. What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made.'' The Times also reported that Obama "declined to criticize Senators Kerry and Edwards for voting to authorize the war, although he said he would not have done the same based on the information he had at the time":

In a recent interview, he declined to criticize Senators Kerry and Edwards for voting to authorize the war, although he said he would not have done the same based on the information he had at the time.

''But, I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports,'' Mr. Obama said. ''What would I have done? I don't know. What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made.''

But Mr. Obama said he did fault Democratic leaders for failing to ask enough tough questions of the Bush administration to force it to prove its case for war. ''What I don't think was appropriate was the degree to which Congress gave the president a pass on this,'' he said.

Further, in a July 24, 2004, interview on CNN's Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer, Obama said that while he "didn't have the information that was available to senators," he would have voted against the Iraq war authorization:

BLITZER: Had you been in the Senate when they had a vote on whether to give the president the authority to go to war, how would you have voted?

OBAMA: You know, I didn't have the information that was available to senators. I know that, as somebody who was thinking about a U.S. Senate race, I think it was a mistake, and I think I would have voted no.

BLITZER: You would have voted no at the time?

OBAMA: That's correct.

BLITZER: Kerry, of course, and Edwards both voted yes.

OBAMA: But keep in mind, I think this is a tough question and a tough call. What I do think is that if you're going to make these tough calls, you have to do so in a transparent way, in an honest way, talk to the American people, trust their judgment.

From the November 11 edition of NBC's Meet the Press:

RUSSERT: You were not in the Senate in October of 2002. You did give a speech opposing the war. But Senator Clinton's campaign will say since you've been a senator, there's been no difference in your records. And other critics will say you've not been a leader against the war, and they point to this. In July of 2004, Barack Obama: "I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports. ... What would I have done? I don't know," in terms of how you would have voted on the war. And then this. "There's not much of a difference between my position and George Bush's position at this stage." That was July of '04. And then this: "I think that there is room for disagreement in that initial decision" to vote for authorization of the war. It doesn't seem that you were firmly wedded against the war and that you left some wiggle room that, if you were in the Senate, you may have voted for it.

OBAMA: Now, Tim, that first quote was made with an interview with a guy named Tim Russert on Meet the Press during the convention when we had a nominee for the presidency and a vice president, both of whom had voted for the war, so it probably was the wrong time for me to be making a strong case against our party's nominees' decisions when it came to Iraq. Look, I was opposed to this war in 2002, 2003, '4, '5, '6, and '7. What I was very clear about, even in 2002 in my original opposition, was once we were in, we were going to have to make some decisions to see how we could stabilize the situation and act responsibly. And that's what I did through 2004, '5, and '6, try to see, can we create a workable government in Iraq? Can we make sure that we're minimizing the humanitarian costs in Iraq? Can we make sure that our troops are safe in Iraq? And that's what I have done. Finally, in 2006-2007, we started to see that even after an election, George Bush continued to want to pursue a course that didn't withdraw troops from Iraq but actually doubled down and initiated the surge. And at that stage, I said very clearly, not only have we not seen improvements, but we're actually worsening potentially a situation there. And since that time, I've been absolutely clear in terms of the approach I would take. I would end this war and I would have our troops out within 16 months.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200711110004


Obama's 2002 anti-dumb-war speech: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Obama's_Iraq_Speech
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Thanks.
:blush:
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. no worries
Edited on Tue Feb-05-08 01:47 PM by AtomicKitten
I admire your willingness to be open to information. Cheers.

edited for the "cheers" guys :toast:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Heh... well when I'm wrong I'm wrong!
No sense pretending otherwise. Thanks again. :)
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
17. No. Which was a blight against him and the mark of a poor presidential candidate.
So what's your point?
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IndianaJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
21. my answer would have been misleading, had I known the question. nt.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
25. and my response would have gone off on some philosophical
Edited on Tue Feb-05-08 01:58 PM by Bluerthanblue
tangent.

So, while I'm here- I know what de-lete is. What is a 'lete'?

peace~
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
27. No, much to my dismay
I think he may have made a mea culpa after the election, but not before. I still believe that if Kerry had come straight out and admitted that his vote was a mistake he'd be president today.
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