As a Clinton supporter, I like the overconfidence of the Obama camp

I like to see them letting down their guard and gloating. If nothing else, that behavior gives me hope that some of his supporters are so convinced of victory that they've taken to aggravating Hillary Clinton's followers, taunting and ridiculing, to the point where their behavior threatens to snap back in their faces from the would-be supporters offended by the assumption put out there that Obama already has this sewn up.

This is way too early to be declaring Clinton out, despite the despicable, speculative articles and posts which are attempting to discourage Clinton supporters. I think the gloating by some is a reflection of an inexperience in these types of elections by some of the newer folks to the process who have been energized to support our Democrats because of Bush's unpopularity. A lot of conventional wisdom has already fallen by the wayside in this campaign, but I don't believe that the old adage,'pride goes before a fall' is out of fashion or out of relevance in this contest.

Personally, I'm not at all disturbed by whatever internal mess the Clinton campaign is dealing with. I'm pretty satisfied with the contests she's won so far, and I haven't seen anything, yet, which would indicate that the upcoming contests in some of the larger states where Clinton is favored have shifted in any significant way to Obama.

There are still large hurdles for the Obama camp to overcome, before they can claim some inevitability or Clinton's demise. One of those is the status of a presumed frontrunner. There's more scrutiny, and more expectations of success which are ripe for disappointment among Obama folks if Clinton's supporters stay steadfast and in support of their candidate in the upcoming contests in Texas, Ohio, and Pennsylvania.

So, besides the obvious aversion to the baiting posts which are trying to declare the Clinton campaign dead, I'm kind of encouraged by the apparent overconfidence in the Obama camp. I don't think the boasting and derision of Clinton does their campaign any good at all. I can't imagine that the Obama camp doesn't need some of these Clinton supporters to regard their candidate with some favor, at some point.

I wish the Obama campaign well. They have shown great energy, and generated great enthusiasm around the nation for our party. But, for folks like me, who are supporting Hillary Clinton as a second or third choice, there should be some consideration from her opposition of how these folks will ultimately regard the Obama campaign if he manages to dominate the rest of the primary to his nomination. Nothing worth a damn is going to come from a divided party, in the end.

Lets hope we have nothing like Fa. in my life time, to drag the day after on and on

She's tough and smart and some of the Obama supporters talking smack about how she should drop out, don't seem to have a grasp on the political realities of the race. Hillary's run a competitive race and she's won in states that ARE more important and more reflective of the dem party as a whole. I expect her to win in TX, OH and PA and I wouldn't be surprised if she did much better in VA than polls seem to indicate. The race is a draw and even if Obama wins big today, it'll still be more or less a draw. However, Obama has shown the ability to close on Clinton virtually everywhere. I don't think she can beat him by more than a few points in TX. Her best hope is for blowouts in OH and PA and I'm not sure that's realistic.

It should be exciting.

and it's attracting some very enthusiastic, new voters. I'm glad they're on the Democratic side.

labile |ˈlāˌbīl; -bəl| -- liable to change; easily altered.
• of or characterized by emotions that are easily aroused or freely expressed, and that tend to alter quickly and spontaneously; emotionally unstable.



I think a part of that is the voters (regardless of age) who are new to the process. And that process, as we know is a long and extended thing, far more measured than the rush of a single campaign. This is not about choosing a team and then razzing the opposition, but about making real change happen over time. Clinton assumes we know this, and Obama has stated this also - so there should be no disagreement on that.

Rather than yelling at each other, if the more experienced teach these newer activists to listen rather than lecture, to persuade rather than argue, we will be a much stronger party. This would then make us stronger as we support the new president and more democratic congress (those should go together if current trends hold) to pass all of these bills we are proposing.

Experienced citizens like you and others here.
Now, THAT is what passing the torch is about. :hi:

I don't think we've let down our guard but if that's what you want to think, so be it.

Hillary is not finished by any means. The Clintons are like pit bulls on crack - they won't let go until every last bit of opportunity is taken.

coming off a poor performance in the upcoming states she expects to dominate. There's no way of knowing. I think though, she's going to have the insiders (already behind her candidacy) right there beside her, telling her when enough is enough, if it comes to that.

playing possum with us.

have a perfectly legitimate cause for optimism when looking at the surge of overconfidence which is welling up on the Obama side. I imagine those experienced hands on the Obama side are already looking for a way to tamp some of that gloating down.

because they have a Universal Health Care Plan...Obama does not.. All Obama has to offer, as apposed to McCain, is he wasn't in the Senate when the War Vote was taken. Do you think, as Republicans, that will matter a hill of beans to them? (who, by the way, thought it UNpatriotic IF Americans didn't support the war!!.) Obama is dead meat in red states and Hillary is stronger than he is in Blue States. It doesn't make sense to support a candidate that has nothing to offer the Red states and will loose handily to McCain.

which is completely different from health care.

I can have health insurance and still not get health care. My sister had a $2000 bill because her primary doctor sent her to a plastic surgeon that wasn't in her plan when she was under aged and in need of emergency stitches. Our medical insurance refused to pay a dime.

This is so bogus.

AMERICAN HEALTH CHOICES PLAN

Hillary's American Health Choices Plan covers all Americans and improves health care by lowering costs and improving quality. It speaks to American values, American families, and American jobs.

It puts the consumer in the driver's seat by offering more choices and lowering costs. If you're one of the tens of million Americans without coverage or if you don't like the coverage you have, you will have a choice of plans to pick from and that coverage will be affordable. Of course, if you like the plan you have, you can keep it.


* Affordable: Unlike the current health system where insurance premiums send people into bankruptcy, the plan provides tax credits for working families to help them cover their costs. The tax credits will ensure that working families never have to pay more than a limited percentage of their income for health care.

* Available: No discrimination. The insurance companies can't deny you coverage if you have a pre-existing condition.

* Reliable: It's portable. If you change or lose your job, you keep your health care.


IT'S YOUR CHOICE:
If you have a plan you like, you keep it. If you want to change plans or aren't currently covered, you can choose from dozens of the same plans available to members of Congress, or you can opt into a public plan option like Medicare. And working families will get tax credits to help pay their premiums.

IT'S GOOD FOR SMALL BUSINESSES:
Small businesses are the engine of new job growth in the U.S. economy but face bigger challenges when it comes to providing health care for their employees. Hillary would give tax credits to small businesses that provide health care to their workers to help defray their coverage costs. This will make small businesses more competitive and help create good jobs with health benefits that will stay here in the US.

REINS IN INSURANCE COMPANIES
Insurance companies won't be able to deny you coverage or drop you because their computer model says you're not worth it. They will have to offer and renew coverage to anyone who applies and pays their premium. And like other things that you buy, they will have to compete for your business based on quality and price. Families will have the security of knowing that if they become ill or lose their jobs, they won't lose their coverage.

HILLARY CAN GET IT DONE
Nobody has worked harder or longer to improve health care than Hillary Clinton. From her time in Arkansas when she improved rural health care to her successful effort to create the SCHIP Children's Health Insurance program which now covers six million children, Hillary has the strength and experience to ensure that every man, woman and child in America has quality, affordable health care.

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/?sc=1353&utm_source=1353&utm_medium

... Obama's plan leaves millions uninsured and hasn't a clue how to fix it..

the pale.
tonight when they could be celebrating there were several treads about her speech-her yelling, her cackling her crying etc etc.

in their boasts of some inevitability or in their blanket dismissal of the strength of the Obama camp. I can only hope that in the upper ranks of these campaigns, cooler heads will prevail.

many of whom spent the past year here with their chests puffed out so far they couldn't see the tips of their toes without looking in a mirror.

But, I'll let Obama supporters speak to that.

And, look, we will all have a responsibility in pulling our party together after the convention (hopefully before). That's what I'd like to keep focused on.

primary fights always evaporate quicker than people think.

No question about it: things are still pretty close.

All of life, of course, imitates the sport of boxing. And one thing that is always interestimg to watch is how each corner works between rounds. You can tell a lot about how a fight is going that way.

all Democrats... This need to demonize our candidates just slays me.... Though I went for Obama on Super Tuesday in CO caucuses, I will support Hillary fully if she prevails.

But, yes, the back and forth is out of control... I have been attacked by other Obama supporters (who knew I likewise supported him) just because I cautioned against taking part in this level of vitriol. This level of blind, unfocused, anger-- masquerading as passion-- is harmful to both campaigns. And no, I don't miss nor fail to similarly decry these kind of activities by Hillary supporters... It needs to be tamped down on all sides or we will never come together in the Fall.

Please! Many of them are despicable! Of course you can't see that as a Hillary supporter!

this applies to both sides. And, the post is directed at the present lead by Obama, and the reactions to it. I did mention the blanket dismissals of the Obama victories by Clinton supporters.

I promise, if we manage to get back on top, I'll work to bring some comity between our camps by trying to tamp down the gloating and derision from our camp, as well.

It is hard sometimes because it gets so heated when discussing politics.

:)

at the other end, it's keeping many would-be supporters of Obama at a distance.

Obama MUST win the upcoming primaries and then do a good job opposing Hillary in TX and OH. The pressure is on both of them.

Well, I should say too many Obama supporters - they're not all narcs but I swear a darn lot of them are - too many of them. Sheesh. It does get nauseating.

:hi:

and a pause before posting

I am proud of this country for being a position where a black candidate can get to a point of gloating and over confidence.

And I think you're right at the end of the day -- Hillary should not be underestimated. And I also think overestimation is a problem for any candidate.

It's interesting ...
I have watched over the last year+ as the news media has done nothing but pour on the Hillary Clinton bashing. They have all but given Obama sainthood.

When in History has the "revolution/change" candidate been supported by the news media? Doesn't that go against our conspiracy theories about MSM? I'm not sure.

Perhaps Obama is the great hope for this country and perhaps he does transcend all politics. Maybe he walks on water?

All I can say -- from my personal experience -- is that I am inspired by Hillary and not Barack. I am inspired by what Hillary means to women and I have watched as women, my mother in particular, have broke down and cried as Hillary talked about how she will help the people in this country who have been invisible for too long.

drawing more and more voters to the side of our party

He had the same strategy...."I don't care about NH, I'll win in FL"... didn't work for him either.

Good luck in TX, OH, and PA...you'll need to win big to win at all.

Doug D.

over these losses, as Obama supporters seem to want to see. We're looking forward to contests where Clinton is favored. That's not a lack of care, it's an acknowledgment of strengths and weaknesses.

Isn't the Obama campaign also lobbying the super delegates?

And that talk about divisiveness cuts both ways. Mote, meet beam. (The vast majority of divisive and insulting posts I've seen here in the past week? From Hillary supporters.)

And when Clinton has a deficit in total pledged delegates that can't be overcome without commanding victories of 60% and more in the remaining large states...it's not too early to be counting her out. Unless you don't understand simple mathematics.

I expect that 60% crap Fineman is spreading around to be debunked by morning.

It is simple mathematics. Obama leads by OVER 100 in total COMMITTED (not super) delegates. Clinton will need large margins of victory to make up the deficits...much larger margins than she can expect to win. (Even the Clinton campaign, apparently, is now admitting that a lead in total committed delegates is not likely.)

At this point, there are 1051 delegates remaining. Obama has a total (per CNN; other sources give different totals) of 1059 COMMITTED delegates, versus 956 for Hillary. If Hillary takes 50% of the remaining delegates, she still LOSES in total COMMITTED delegate count. She needs 60% or better.


You can run the numbers yourself, if you want.

And superdelegates are not committed; they can switch their votes. (Not to mention that so far, there are 398 superdelegates who have yet to commit.)

I encourage people to vote their conscience; I also think that shying away from unpleasant facts in favour of self-delusion is not necessarily a good thing, though.

And...it's not a 'lame tactic'; it's mathematics. The numbers don't lie.

Clinton's favored to win there, but I guess they don't matter :sarcasm:

It's not 'winner-take-all'; those delegates are awarded proportionally.

but, I'll bet that figure's going to be shaved quite a bit in the upcoming contests.

in order to have a clear lead in committed delegate total going into the convention.

Obama will probably win Wisconsin and Hawaii; that widens the gap that much further.

THe numbers are just not there. Probably not even with wins in Texas, Ohio, and Pennsylvania (which, after a string of defeats and the perception they create, are much less likely...ask Giuliani how holding out for Florida worked for him).

you base your projection on polls or the momentum you feel your campaign has. But, I have every right and am not incorrect in expecting my candidates' campaigning to succeed. So take your projection and enjoy it. I still believe in the Clinton campaign. The attempt to knock me off of that before all of the votes have been cast is despicable. I understand it from media hacks who make a living off of their exploitation of this stuff, but I can't understand the twisting of the knife from Obama supporters whose candidate will need all of the support he can get if he does prevail. I'm not buying the numbers. They aren't static. There's nothing standing in the way of voters from choosing Clinton in the end, especially when the stakes become sharper. I'm not buying this emasculating campaign to discourage folks from believing Clinton can win before the votes have even been cast.

that's really amusing.

And this isn't about feelings. A rational analysis of what it takes for Clinton to win the nomination, and why current trends and delegate totals make the probability of that happening rather small, is NOT a personal attack on you, so don't act like it is.

The truth is neith Hillary Or Barrack can win the General Election without the support of each others supporters

First-thanks big tree-I needed to hear that tonight-another long night of debate with my 19 yr old Obamanic son! My ?? to the thread-when will Senator Clinton take the gloves back off?

Great article on pg 2 of the Boston Globe today http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/02/12/bay_state_voters_know_their_limits/">BayState Voters Know Limits

but I assure you the Obama campaign is not.

ARTHUR and BLACK KNIGHT:
Aaah!, hiyaah!, etc.

ARTHUR:
Now stand aside, worthy adversary.
BLACK KNIGHT:
'Tis but a scratch.
ARTHUR:
A scratch? Your arm's off!
BLACK KNIGHT:
No, it isn't.
ARTHUR:
Well, what's that, then?
BLACK KNIGHT:
I've had worse.
ARTHUR:
You liar!
BLACK KNIGHT:
Come on, you pansy!

Huyah!

Hiyaah!

Aaaaaaaah!

ARTHUR:
Victory is mine!

We thank Thee Lord, that in Thy mer--
BLACK KNIGHT:
Hah!

Come on, then.
ARTHUR:
What?
BLACK KNIGHT:
Have at you!

ARTHUR:
Eh. You are indeed brave, Sir Knight, but the fight is mine.
BLACK KNIGHT:
Oh, had enough, eh?
ARTHUR:
Look, you stupid bastard. You've got no arms left.
BLACK KNIGHT:
Yes, I have.
ARTHUR:
Look!
BLACK KNIGHT:
Just a flesh wound.

ARTHUR:
Look, stop that.
BLACK KNIGHT:
Chicken!

Chickennn!
ARTHUR:
Look, I'll have your leg.

Right!


BLACK KNIGHT:
Right. I'll do you for that!
ARTHUR:
You'll what?
BLACK KNIGHT:
Come here!
ARTHUR:
What are you going to do, bleed on me?
BLACK KNIGHT:
I'm invincible!
ARTHUR:
You're a looney.
BLACK KNIGHT:
The Black Knight always triumphs! Have at you! Come on, then.


BLACK KNIGHT:
Oh? All right, we'll call it a draw.
ARTHUR:
Come, Patsy.
BLACK KNIGHT:
Oh. Oh, I see. Running away, eh? You yellow bastards! Come back here and take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off!

Don't get unhinged from reality.
:crazy:

what a stretch to ridicule.

If you know me, I try to be a mild poster, especially among the madness of GD: PRIME. But even if it was filled with crazed Obama supporters, it would have no effect on anything. You must see that.

There's more than enough calls for Clinton to step down made outside of this place for me to generalize on this. But, I'm really just speaking to DUers when I post here.

I have no doubt that she will get the latino vote.

As a New Englander tell me about it. :(