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"Some people may think words are change. But you and I know better. Words are cheap."

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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:11 PM
Original message
"Some people may think words are change. But you and I know better. Words are cheap."
So says Hillary. How low can she go?
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. She must know that's ironic, being dependent upon words as she is.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Exactly. She is really grasping for straws with this. Words are NOT cheap if they send a message
of hope and change with specific policies which he HAS given in his wonderful speeches. Just because he is able to give inspiring speeches doesn't mean he's an empty suit. He's not.
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
71. Tweety said
he can't think of any great leader who was NOT also a good speaker. She is grasping for straws.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. Good for him! That WAS a good point!
And nice pic! :hi:
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Seriously.
She was, herself, at the moment she said that, giving a campaign stump speech.

Note to audience members: everything I am about to say is a MOUNTAIN of shit. :P
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Abacus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. My immediate thought, also. /nt
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. Apparently a lot cheaper than valet parking, which cost $500,000.
Talk Is cheap, and that's all she is.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. So true!
And the fact she is attacking his ability to inspire people won't go over very well, I bet.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Hillar is the epitome of All Hat and No Cattle. She's All Talk and it's All Prattle.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. I agree, as do many people according to the polls. n/t
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
35. The polls are missing all the new Democratic voters who didn't vote in 2004.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. True. And even the polls that have her leading by about 20%, if true, wouldn't be enough to put her
ahead of Obama!
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #37
68. The last Texas poll I've seen was done late January, and she was only 10 points up.
I believe that ten point lead is gone now.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #68
75. Oh! Then I'm SURE you're right that that lead is gone now! And that will spell the end of her
campaign. :D
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #75
79. I was visiting with a black community leader today, and he said they'll vote in records numbers.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Good! Thanks for that info!
:hi:
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. What a bottom-feeder Hillary has become.
She has nothing positive to offer so she tears down hope and inspiration.

Sad, really.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. I wonder who put those words in her mouth. Bill Clinton? Mark Penn? Karl Rove?
It IS sad.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
83. Probably Bill.
With Maggie Williams nodding her head.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #83
86. That's very plausible.
:hi:
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HeraldSquare212 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
5. She said.
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NoBorders Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
6. C'mon, after last Tuesday we all knew she would go negative
It is sad to see though, I agree. It's a final desperate tactic to stay in the race.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. She's going negative on her own self though...
I don't get it...

:shrug:
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NoBorders Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #17
59. Neither does she.
:-)
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The Ghost Donating Member (557 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
8. Is there a link for this?
This woman has no shame
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. No. There was video of her saying it. I saw it on MSNBC.
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The Ghost Donating Member (557 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
30. Fair enought, thanks!
n/t
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Raffi Ella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
9. got to you didn't it?
:)



Change is a comin' yes it is.
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jlake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
11. Do you dispute her claim? Or just lashing out because you know she's right?
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. Yes, I dispute her claim. His words are not only inspiring, but are specific re: positions
on the issues. Just because the way he says things is so much better than the way SHE says things doesn't mean his words should be held against him. But apparently, that's all she has left.
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jlake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. You are not disputing her claim. All he has are words.... by your own admission.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
38. Um, what was Hillary using to say words are cheap? WORDS!
:eyes:
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jlake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #38
49. Wow, you just like - blew my mind.
:eyes:
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #49
61. That was easy.
:hi:
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. And do you actually believe that Obama has no plans? Come on.
Aren't you just a little impressed by the tight and effective campaign he's run thus far?

Search yourself, you know it to be true.
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jlake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. And are you even responding to the QUOTE from Hillary or something else.
She does not claim that he has no plans - but that he has no RECORD OF GETTING ANYTHING DONE - and that EXPERIENCE and COMPETENCE Matters. You cannot dispute that Hillary is a policy wonk - and Obama is not.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Both.
In my post I pointed out that:

1. Obama's talk is not cheap. He has detailed plans to back that up.
2. The way Obama has run his campaign shows a hell of a lot of competence.
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
14. In her defense..
It must really suck to continually lose to a man who, in her words, lacks substance. Though I hesitate to see how insulting the majority that have already voted for him helps her.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
18. Oooh playing hardball!! SCARY!!!
Problem here for Obamas, is she's absolutely correct.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #18
40. She is NOT correct. She's wrong. "Playing hardball"? Nah-showing desperation is more like it.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #40
65. It's really hard to believe
Edited on Thu Feb-14-08 04:58 PM by DemGa
It's really hard to believe Obamas are getting bent out of shape about something so tame. You guys will probably run for the hills when something REAL happens.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #65
76. For the record, I am not an Obama.
The Obamas have BEEN responding to her lame claim that ALL he does is give a good speech. I'm just pointing out how pathetic she sounds.
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
19. When in the Course of human events,
it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
Preamble

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government


I would like to see a link and quote from the OP....
because it pissed me off if it is true.
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gmudem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
32. Great post
I would recommend that post if I could. And just to add:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Just silly, stupid words. Are Hillary and her supporters really this desperate?
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
42. I don't HAVE a link. But it's on VIDEO that I saw on MSNBC. n/t
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #42
51. OK, it will probably come up later on the web
I think she opened herself up for a rebuttal with my simple example of
what words mean.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #51
84. I can second that she said that in Ohio today.
The clip was on Hardball.
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smalll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
21. Good for her. A great line: it simply and succinctly raises issues with Obama the Orator
Edited on Thu Feb-14-08 03:58 PM by smalll
(who would rather speechify than debate,) with his nebulous, sloganeering rhetoric, and with Obama's low-information, dreamy and emotional fans. And it helps to tie Hillary even closer to people who "need a President" - a little older, a little less prosperous -- the average American who knows life isn't all goosebumps and ponies.

And, it reminds people of her reputation for hard work, (as oppsed to Obama's reputation for laziness.)

All in one plain English sentence, full of common sense.

You go girl!
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. A good line, but unfortunately she's only following McCain's lead...
In his speech after the Potomac primaries, he blasted Obama for speaking in "platitudes".

I'd be more impressed it it were original. Just sayin'.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
25. The thing about this that makes my brain liquefy and shoot out through my ears
is that Obama '08 is Bill '92.

"I come from a place called Hope."

It was a great tag line, it worked very effectively.

His freakin' campaign song was "Don't stop thinking about tomorrow."

Like, he WAS running on a message of hope and change.

But now he's the f***ing Grinch. :shrug:
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
27. That sounded bitter, didn't it? I wish she'd just play to her strengths
There is no need to try to compete with Obama's oratory- just be who you've always been! We liked you for it! Be that strong, outspoken, positive woman. You don't have to yell or do the pep rally thing. Just be yourself! I hope somebody tells her this.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
29. There is no depth to which she cannot sink.. case in point...
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
31. as low as they can go...
I wonder how she feels about the words: "I'm sorry"

Clinton Surrogate Compares Obama Ad to Nazi March
http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20080201/cm_thenation/45278988_1
Fri Feb 1, 2:23 PM ET

The Nation -- On a media conference call organized by the Hillary Clinton campaign today, Clinton surrogate Len Nichols compared an Obama health care ad to Nazis. The ad features a couple at a kitchen table, which some Clinton supporters said was reminiscent of "the famous insurance-industry-financed 'Harry and Louise' ads against the original Clinton plan," as The Politico reports, and Mr. Nichols said it "personally outraged" him.


Accusing political opponents of Nazism is an outrageous smear. Raising the specter of a Nazi march in response to a health care mailer that evokes the insurance industry is so absurd, it would be hard to take the attack seriously, were it not launched from a high profile national campaign conference call in this crucial stretch of the presidential race. And political observers know, of course, that the Clinton Campaign regularly arranges opportunities for surrogates to launch these kind of smears, which are later followed up with apologies. (See: Bob Johnson, Bill Shaheen, Bob Kerrey, and Francine Torge, to name the most recent offenders.) For his part, Nichols did not immediately return a call requesting further comment.
-------------------------
Len Nichols, Director of New America's Health Policy Program, stated, "For nearly 17 years I have worked tirelessly to reform our nation's struggling health system. Today my passion overwhelmed me. I chose an analogy that was wholly inappropriate. I am deeply sorry for any offense that my unfortunate comments may have caused. I made unfortunate comments that do not accurately reflect my bipartisan conviction, political philosophy, or most importantly, my opinions about Senator Obama and his historic campaign for the United States presidency."



Clinton adviser steps down after drug use comments
Earlier Thursday, Clinton personally apologized to rival Obama for Shaheen's remarks.

Obama accepted her apology, according to David Axelrod, the top political strategist for the Obama campaign.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/13/clinton.obama/index.html


January 6, 2008, 5:18 pm
Edwards: No Conscience in Clinton Campaign
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/06/edwards-no-conscience-in-clinton-campaign/
By Julie Bosman
KEENE, N.H. – John Edwards angrily took on Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton at two news conferences in a row on Sunday, saying that her campaign “doesn’t seem to have a conscience.”



COMPTON, Calif. (AP) — Hillary Rodham Clinton and her campaign tried to mend ties to black voters Thursday when a key supporter apologized to her chief rival, Barack Obama, for comments that hinted at Obama's drug use as a teenager. The candidate herself, meanwhile, praised the Rev. Martin Luther King and promised to assist with the rebirth of this troubled, largely black city.

Bob Johnson, the founder of Black Entertainment Television, apologized
for comments he made at a Clinton campaign rally in South Carolina on Sunday that hinted at Obama's use of drugs as a teenager.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-01-17-johnson-apology_N.htm?csp=34


December 10, 2007
Third Clinton Volunteer Knew Of Smear E-Mail

A third volunteer for Hillary Clinton's campaign was aware of a propaganda e-mail alleging that Barack Obama is a Muslim who plans on "destroying the U.S. from the inside out."

"Let us all remain alert concerning Obama's expected presidential Candidacy," the email reads. "Please forward to everyone you know. The Muslims have said they Plan on destroying the U.S. from the inside out, what better way to start than at The highest level."

Two Clinton volunteers, Linda Olson and Judy Rose, have already been asked to resign from the campaign for their roles in forwarding the e-mail. The AP reported yesterday that Olson, a volunteer coordinator in Iowa County, sent a version of the e-mail to 11 people, including Ben Young, a regional field director for Chris Dodd's campaign. Young passed it on to the AP.

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/hillary_adviser_harold_ickes_t.php



Hillary: Sorry for Any Offense Campaign (Bill) Has Caused

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB65wJ6Rcfs



Bill Clinton Asks for a Second Chance

By Liz Halloran
Posted February 11, 2008

The morning after his wife, Hillary, was routed in three state contests by Sen. Barack Obama in their dead-heat battle for the Democratic nomination, former President Bill Clinton made his case for her before a packed Sunday service at one of the largest black churches in Washington, D.C.
But first he offered an apology of sorts for racially tinged comments he made about Obama and his candidacy that have triggered a backlash in the black community and among many other Democrats.

Clinton invoked his "worship of a God of second chances" in pronouncing himself glad to be at the Temple of Praise, which claims nearly 15,000 members. His invocation of second chances echoed comments he made early last week at black churches in California, where he campaigned for his wife before that state's Super Tuesday primary, which she won.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/campaign-2008/2008/02/11/bill-clinton-asks-for-a-second-chance.html


Bill Clinton To Apologize At LA Black Churches
Once again, Bill Clinton is ready to repent.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/02/bill-clinton-to-apologize_n_84573.html
On Sunday the former president is scheduled to visit black churches in South Central Los Angeles, where he's expected to offer a mea culpa to those who "dearly loved him" when he was their president, Rep. Diane Watson (D-Calif.) says.

Watson, a member of the Congressional Black Caucus who has endorsed Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), tells us she'll usher the former president to more than half a dozen churches in her district where she says he needs to "renew his relationship" with congregants who were turned off by his racially tinged comments in the days leading up to and following the South Carolina primary. (Such as when Clinton compared Sen. Barack Obama's landslide victory to Jesse Jackson's wins in 1984 and 1988.)


Source: Hillary Adviser Harold Ickes Tells Surrogates To Refer To Super-Delegates As "Automatic Delegates"
By Greg Sargent - February 12, 2008, 11:43AM

In a sign that the spin war over the significance of super-delegates is underway in earnest, Harold Ickes told assorted Hillary supporters on a private conference call yesterday that the campaign wants them to start referring to super-delegates as "automatic delegates," according to someone on the call.

The person I spoke to paraphrases Ickes, who is spearheading Hillary's super-delegate hunt, this way: "We're no longer using the phrase super delegates. It creates a wrong impression. They're called automatic delegates. Because that's what they are."

The worry appears to be that the phrase "super-delegates" implies that "they have super-powers or super influence when they don't," the source says, describing Ickes' thinking. In other words, the phrase suggests that they have greater than average clout and that they have the power to overrule the democratic process, giving it the taint of back-room power politics
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/hillary_adviser_harold_ickes_t.php

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Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
33. Yes Hillary, when you talk about the poor soldiers words are cheap.
Your action, voting for the Iraq War, spoke volumes.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #33
45. Exactly.
:hi:
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SpooningNinja Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
36. She doesn't get it
She's attacking what everyone loves about Obama. When does that EVER work?

If you think your friend is beautiful, and your other friend starts always calling her ugly, you're going to get a little pissed off.
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #36
72. on tv last night someone said that you never win if you attack "hope"
The American people are optimists and love to look to the future with hope. Especially now, after these last seven horrible years. A chance for a new beginning, to try to recapture our pride as Americans again. Hillary attacking this is not going to do any good.

Imagine someone hearing her and saying, "ok then, I don't want the guy who is positive. I want to stick with the divisive, negative candidate because then I won't be disappointed."
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
39. if Obama can't take a mild quote like that
he's going to crumple up against McCain. But he can take it, of course.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. Of course he can take it. And turn it around on her. She's said this before but not so directly.
She's showing desperation.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. that's how it works
he has a message, she challenges it, he answers her challenge. Nothing to get all worked up over.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #48
62. It's about her character.
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
41. As are her shoes



:D
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. That's a Meow comment like MoDo makes.

That Obooma kool-aid must be really strong shit.
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. It wasn't serious
settle down with your kool-aid bullshit.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
43. desperation
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
46. Hope for Change you can Believe in. It is like a seductive drug co. commercial.
Edited on Thu Feb-14-08 04:23 PM by Skip Intro

has been from the start.

Vague words that can mean anything to anyone, happy images, sunrise logo.

What they do not want to tell you, tho, are the side effects, the risks, the details, the specifics. Just follow the bouncing O.

Hillary is absolutely right.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #46
55. It's Morning In America!
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
52. The UBER-PISSER here
is that shows she doesn't know shit about framing.

Framing will win us this thing. :(
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
53. Some words are less than a dime a dozen, may depend on whether they're in season...
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
54. Well since Hillary says words are cheap I am waiting for her next policy presentation in
pantomime
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Thrill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
56. Hillary should change her name to Debbie Downer
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
57. She's gone NEGATIVE folks!!! Incoming.
Edited on Thu Feb-14-08 04:32 PM by 48percenter
This sentence is her death knell, watch. Say goodbye to OH and TX Hillary. Nice work.
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
58. Probably not as low as you 've go ne on some of your posts
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. I'm not a candidate for the Dem. party.
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
63. She's right.
Words are cheap. I wonder how all the Obama followers will feel when the first campaign promise is broken, as is inevitable. he is not the second coming, folks. Word are very cheap.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #63
77. If she's right and words are cheap, why should we believe HER words?
And who said he's the second coming???
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Reterr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #63
82. Exactly.eom
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
64. Oh, my gosh......
whiny baby. wahhhhhhhhh You think that's bad? LOL
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #64
80. I agree. Hillary IS a whiny baby!
:hi:
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Hill_YesWeWill Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
66. wow, I wonder what she's paying her speech writers then
maybe they should go on strike!
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Beausoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
67. Wow! She really hit below the belt on that one! LOL.
Good god..Obama needs to toughen up.
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Madam Mossfern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. I don't see it as a hit below the belt
I see it as a desperate mean spirited sound byte that will end up causing more people to question her. I'm sure that the Obama camp will see this as an opportunity to turn it around on her.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #67
73. Obama needs to toughen up??? He hasn't whined about her ignorant statement...
I've simply pointed out her desperate comment.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
69. She sounded . . . I'll say it . . . bitchy. nt
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
78. She is right. Latest example: Obama's new words on trade don't match his record
Barack Obama’s current rhetoric does not match his record on trade. With major primaries coming up in states with a large working class populations Barack Obama is suddenly tacking to the left on trade. His rhetoric his changed, but not his policies but few voters will ever look at what a candidate’s policies are and Obama knows this.

Here is what he is saying now:

-snip-

"It's a Washington where decades of trade deals like NAFTA and China have been signed with plenty of protections for corporations and their profits, but none for our environment or our workers who've seen factories shut their doors and millions of jobs disappear; workers whose right to organize and unionize has been under assault for the last eight years," continued the senator, who is suddenly very conscious of the need to appeal to working-class voters in Wisconsin and Ohio who have been battered by trade deals such as the North American Free Trade Agreement and the decision the Clinton administration to extend permanent most-favored-nation training status to China.

-snip-

But I also won't stand here and accept an America where we do nothing to help American workers who have lost jobs and opportunities because of these trade agreements. And that's a position of mine that doesn't change based on who I'm talking to or the election I'm running in," Obama said

-snip-

Then Obama declared, "(When) I am president, I will not sign another trade agreement unless it has protections for our environment and protections for American workers. And I'll pass the Patriot Employer Act that I've been fighting for ever since I ran for the Senate--we will end the tax breaks for companies who ship our jobs overseas, and we will give those breaks to companies who create good jobs with decent wages right here in America."

This speech represents progress for Obama, who has not up to now been a particularly strong advocate for the fair-trade policies favored by labor and environmental groups and senators such as Wisconsin's Feingold and Ohio's Sherrod Brown. The cautious contender is still a long way from embracing the full agenda of the steel and auto workers union leaders and industrial-state senators and congressmen he has been talking with at some length in recent days. And there will be appropriate skepticism about whether Obama will continue to err on the populist side after Wisconsin and Ohio have finished voting – and after key players such as Feingold, Brown and former candidate John Edwards have endorsed.

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?pid=284664

Really senator? You won’t change your position based on what election it is and who you are talking to? Then why did you suddenly discover trade as a big issue just in time for Wisconsin (where four years ago Edwards nearly upset Kerry by using trade) , Texas, Pennsylvania, and Ohio? Why did you change your rhetoric based on where the election is and who you are talking to? How did you manage to keep a straight face when you made that statement in Wisconsin knowing full well what game you are playing with voters there? You also say you will not sign an agreement that doesn't have what the agreement you supported just two month ago didn't have?

The writer puts too much hope in Obama. This is not encouraging. This isn’t a change in his beliefs or policies. He is simply pandering to working folks in a few important states by changing his rhetoric, not his policies. Once he no longer needs these votes he will return to his usual rhetoric.

Let’s compare his current rhetoric to his record. After that we will look at his policies.

We know Obama supporters like to talk about National Journal ratings. Here is what the Journal said about Obama on trade: “based on his positions in Illinois and the United States Senate, the National Journal concluded that Sen. Obama was "the most likely presidential candidate to support further trade liberalization."


Date Bill Title Vote

12/04/2007 United States-Peru Trade Agreement NV
09/19/2006 U.S.-Oman Free Trade Agreement Implementation Y
06/29/2006 U.S. -Oman Free Trade Agreement Y
07/28/2005 CAFTA Implementation Bill N
06/30/2005 CAFTA Implementation Bill N

He also voted for the Bahrain trade agreement, which passed by unanimous consent in 2005.

He is on record as saying he supports Peru trade (more on that later) and, after Edwards loudly denounced South Korea trade, his office stood tall by releasing a statement criticizing it. Still if we give him the benefit of doubt on South Korea his record is not that bad. CAFTA was considered the big one and he opposed it. However, let’s look at what he really believed about it. From his book:

“It opened up new markets for U.S. agricultural producers, and promised much-needed foreign investment in poor countries like Honduras and the Dominican Republic. There were some problems with the agreement, but overall, CAFTA was probably a net plus for the U.S. economy.” (pg. 172)

No true fair trader would feel that way. Clearly on the merits he supported the idea of CAFTA. So why did he vote against it?

“I ended up voting against CAFTA, which passed the Senate by a vote of 55 to 45. My vote gave me no satisfaction, but I felt it was the only way to register a protest against what I considered to be the White House’s inattention to the losers from free trade. Like Bob Rubin, I am optimistic about the long-term prospects for the U.S. economy and the ability of U.S. workers to compete in a free trade environment—but only if we distribute the costs and benefits of globalization more fairly across the population.” (pg. 176)

You don’t get a more clear statement from the deliberately vague Obama. He voted against it not because he opposed the bill on the merits but as a protest to the White House not giving enough attention to labor concerns (that is his explanation. The more likely reason is he did it to cover his behind from the wrath of labor). What does he mean by this? He, like most free traders, believes those jobs will be gone anyway and rightfully so and what we should do is retrain workers to get new jobs. That is great for someone who is a millionaire lawyer who is among the most powerful folks in the world but that doesn’t cut it for a middle-aged person with a high school education, a mortgage, worried about keeping his health care and paying for his three kids to go to college. The “costs and benefits” line is vintage Obama. Say something that means nothing but is vague enough to provide comfort to folks concerned about you. It is more sloganeering from Obama. To sum it up, he voted against CAFTA while he was for it.

Before getting to Peru here is an amendment you probably never heard about but it is a big deal and tells us a lot about Obama. “Sen. Obama opposed an amendment that would have prevented the weakening of laws that protect against unfair trade practices. (Hillary supported the amendment.) Sen. Obama also supports fast track authority.”
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=595...

Is this true? Yes. http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/r...

YEAs ---39
Akaka (D-HI)
Bayh (D-IN)
Biden (D-DE)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Byrd (D-WV)
Chambliss (R-GA)
Clinton (D-NY)
Coburn (R-OK)
Collins (R-ME)
Conrad (D-ND)
Craig (R-ID)
Dayton (D-MN) Dodd (D-CT)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Graham (R-SC)
Harkin (D-IA)
Inouye (D-HI)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Kohl (D-WI)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lautenberg (D-NJ) Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Nelson (D-FL)
Pryor (D-AR)
Reid (D-NV)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Salazar (D-CO)
Sarbanes (D-MD)
Shelby (R-AL)
Snowe (R-ME)
Specter (R-PA)
Stabenow (D-MI)

NAYs ---60
Alexander (R-TN)
Allard (R-CO)
Allen (R-VA)
Baucus (D-MT)
Bennett (R-UT)
Bond (R-MO)
Brownback (R-KS)
Bunning (R-KY)
Burns (R-MT)
Burr (R-NC)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Carper (D-DE)
Chafee (R-RI)
Cochran (R-MS)
Coleman (R-MN)
Cornyn (R-TX)
Crapo (R-ID)
DeMint (R-SC)
DeWine (R-OH)
Dole (R-NC) Domenici (R-NM)
Ensign (R-NV)
Enzi (R-WY)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Frist (R-TN)
Grassley (R-IA)
Gregg (R-NH)
Hagel (R-NE)
Hatch (R-UT)
Hutchison (R-TX)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Isakson (R-GA)
Jeffords (I-VT)
Kyl (R-AZ)
Lieberman (D-CT)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Lott (R-MS)
Lugar (R-IN)
Martinez (R-FL)
McCain (R-AZ) McConnell (R-KY)
Murkowski (R-AK)
Murray (D-WA)
Nelson (D-NE)
Obama (D-IL)
Reed (D-RI)
Roberts (R-KS)
Santorum (R-PA)
Schumer (D-NY)
Sessions (R-AL)
Smith (R-OR)
Stevens (R-AK)
Sununu (R-NH)
Talent (R-MO)
Thomas (R-WY)
Thune (R-SD)
Vitter (R-LA)
Voinovich (R-OH)
Warner (R-VA)
Wyden (D-OR)

Vote Summary
Question: On the Amendment (Dorgan Amdt. No. 1665 )
Vote Number: 232 Vote Date: September 15, 2005, 12:17 PM
Required For Majority: 1/2 Vote Result: Amendment Rejected
Amendment Number: S.Amdt. 1665 to H.R. 2862

Statement of Purpose: To prohibit weakening any law that provides safeguards from unfair foreign trade practices.
Vote Counts: YEAs 39
NAYs 60

Obama was one of only 11 Democrats (including then Democratic Joe Lieberman) to vote against this pro-worker, pro-fair trade amendment. Look at the other 11. DLC, DLC, DLC!

Here is an article comparing the economic outlooks of Edwards, Hillary, and Obama. Here is what the Economist had to say about Obama:

-snip-

ACCORDING to conventional wisdom John Edwards is the protectionist among the Democrats' three leading presidential candidates, Hillary Clinton is the intellectual heir to (Bill's) Clintonomics, and Barack Obama will position himself somewhere between the two. Judging by their advisers and actions so far, the truth may be more complicated. Mr Edwards is running on the left flank, but less rabidly than many expected. And in some areas, notably trade policy, Mr Obama may be to the right of Mrs Clinton.

-snip-

Mr Obama has carefully avoided any such rhetoric. His trade strategy, like much else, is still short on details. Like Mrs Clinton, he voted against the free-trade agreement with Central America. But judging by his latest book, Mr Obama is more concerned with helping people deal with globalisation than trying to slow it down. One trade wonk who knows both candidates says that Mr Obama is more of an instinctive free-trader than Mrs Clinton.

Judging by the advisers surrounding him, Mr Obama may end up with more market-oriented ideas elsewhere too. While the Clinton economic team is run by experienced practitioners, Mr Obama relies on his Senate staff and a growing group of young academics, all of whom have impeccable neoclassical credentials. At the centre is Mr Goolsbee, a 37-year-old public-finance whizz. Then there is David Cutler, a top health economist from Harvard, who focuses on changing incentives to improve the quality of health care. David and Christina Romer, a husband and wife team from Berkeley, advise on macroeconomic matters. Jeff Liebman, a labour and pensions expert at Harvard, also plays an important role. He is the co-author of a bipartisan Social Security reform plan that includes individual retirement accounts.
http://www.economist.com/world/na/displaystory.cfm?stor...

Peru is a small country but the Peru free trade agreement is important because it is the recent trade deal and it raises troubling questions about whether Obama can be trusted on trade. Everyone can agree that no entity in the Democratic Party is more associated with and a bigger proponent of free trade than the DLC. Let’s compare the DLC’s position on Peru to Obama’s and contrast that with fair traders like Sherrod Brown, John Edwards, and the AFL-CIO.

Here's just one DLC article on trade to give a flavor of what the DLC stands for. Compare that to Obama and Hillary. The basic tenets of the Obama and Hillary views on trade are embodied in this and this is reflected by both Obama and Hillary supporting the Peru trade agreement that this DLC endorsed deal paved the way for (Edwards opposed the Peru deal).

DLC | New Dem Dispatch | May 11, 2007
Idea of the Week: Reviving Trade Policy

Some real progress emerged yesterday on an unexpected front: an agreement between House Democratic leaders, led by Ways and Means Committee Chairman Charles Rangel (D-NY), and the Bush administration on a template for future trade agreements. For the first time, the administration has agreed to the inclusion of core labor and environmental standards in trade agreements, along with a comprehensive effort to update and expand domestic programs that help U.S. workers deal with dislocations caused by globalization and other factors. This accord paves the way for congressional approval of at least two pending Free Trade Agreements, with Peru and Panama, while establishing a framework for future deals. It is a triumph for Chairman Rangel, and a very good sign for Democratic leadership on policy in the years ahead.

The agreement establishes as U.S. policy that future bilateral Free Trade Agreements -- that is, agreements which create special relationships offering partners greater access to the U.S. market than WTO rules require -- include enforcement of the fundamental workers' rights provisions set out by the International Labor Organization's 1998 Declaration on Core Labor Standards (including the right to organize unions, and bans on child labor and discriminatory practices), and of seven specific international environmental pacts.

And it commits the administration and House leaders to a "Strategic Worker Assistance and Training Initiative " to "promote education, training and portable health and pension benefits, design and implement concrete and comprehensive programs, including public-private partnerships to educate youth, update and upgrade workers' skills on the job, stimulate science education and research, provide meaningful health and pension benefits and income support, go beyond the current TAA system to provide meaningful support, training and revitalization programs for entire communities hurt by the effects of trade and technology."

The latter provision has been a long-standing goal of all pro-trade progressives. And the labor and environmental standards usefully focus on widely acknowledged international norms that will be binding on the United States and its FTA partners equally, avoiding arbitrary and unilateral efforts to impose wage rates on poorer countries that would simply make trade agreements impossible.

http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=108&subid=900010&c ...

Here is Obama’s statement which could have being plagiarized straight from the DLC:

"Obama said he would vote for a Peruvian trade agreement next week, in response to a question from a man in Londonderry, NH who called NAFTA and CAFTA a disaster for American workers. He said he supported the trade agreement with Peru because it contained the labor and environmental standards sought by groups like the AFL-CIO, despite the voter's protests to the contrary. He also affirmed his support for free trade."

The voter's "protests to the contrary" are exactly right. The AFL-CIO does not support the bill expanding NAFTA into Peru, and the much-trumpeted labor/environmental standards leave enforcement up to the Bush administration, rather than empowering third parties to enforce them (like corporations have the power to enforce investor rights provisions in these same trade agreements). Leaving enforcement to the Bush administration -- or any administration -- is the biggest loophole possible. It is precisely why corporate lobbyists have bragged to reporters that the standards are not enforceable.

Obama is the first presidential candidate to officially declare his/her support for the NAFTA expansion moving through the Congress. His announcement is not necessarily surprising, considering he was the keynote speaker at the launch of the Hamilton Project -- a Wall Street front group working to drive a wedge between Democrats and organized labor on globalization issues. His announcement comes just days after a Wall Street Journal poll found strong bipartisan opposition to lobbyist-written NAFTA-style trade policies.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sirota/breaking-oba ...

Sherrod Brown:
"Congress (has) passed another job-killing trade agreement that will shut down our factories, hurt our communities, and send more unsafe food into our kitchens and consumer products into our children's bedrooms."

Brown, like the other freshmen Democrats elected to the Senate in 2006, understands something that Clinton and Obama are still missing. "Our current trade model chases short-term profits for the few, at the expense of long-term prosperity, health and safety for the many. It's a model that doesn't work. Look at our trade deficit, look at manufacturing job losses, look at wage stagnation, look at imported product recalls, look at forced labor, child labor, slave labor. Look what it does to communities," says the senator, who made changing trade policy a central issue in his successful challenge to Republican Senator Mike DeWine, as did other Democratic winners such as Bob Casey of Pennsylvania, Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota, Claire McMaskill of Missouri, Bernie Sanders of Vermont, John Tester of Montana and Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island – all of whom opposed the Peru deal.

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?pid=256831

John Edwards:

-snip-

“Today I am announcing my opposition to the Peru Trade Agreement negotiated by the Bush Administration and being considered for approval by Congress. Despite strong efforts by many Democrats in Congress, labor organizations and fair trade advocates to embed international labor standards into the Agreement, what resulted were references to general principles and not specific standards. And the Agreement still replicates and in fact expands all of the other most damaging aspects of past trade agreements. In short, this agreement does not meet my standard of putting American workers and communities first, ahead of the interests of the big multinational corporations, which for too long have rigged our trade policies for themselves and against American families.

-snip-

Right now, President Bush is pushing to expand this NAFTA approach to four more countries. He has signed agreements with Peru, Panama, Korea and even Colombia, where since 1991, in this tiny country, there have been over 2100 documented cases of trade unionists being assassinated, 72 in 2006 alone.

All of these agreements replicate these terrible features of NAFTA:

• All of these agreements provide the expansive investor rights that literally create incentives to relocate U.S. jobs overseas;
• All of these agreements limit our ability to inspect imported food - even as the International Trade Commission projects that these pacts will result in a new flood of imported food;
• All of these agreements allow foreign corporations operating here to attack our environmental, health and even local zoning laws in foreign tribunals to demand our tax dollars in compensation if following our laws undermines their expected profits.
• All of these agreements even limit how we can spend our own tax dollars. These deals ban many Buy America and other similar policies. Instead of your tax dollars going to support American workers, these agreements take away one the few opportunities the government has to directly create jobs here.

But these four proposed agreements actually go even further than NAFTA.
For instance, these deals give those foreign corporations who get contracts to rebuild our nation's bridges and highways or to operate mines or cut timber on U.S. federal land special privileges superior to the treatment of U.S. firms. U.S. firms have to meet our laws, but in contrast, these agreements let foreign corporations operating within the United States who have a gripe about their contract terms drag the U.S. government into foreign tribunals stacked with their own lawyers acting as ‘judges.'

The damage threatened by these NAFTA expansion agreements extends beyond the United States. Buried deep in the 800-page text of the Peru FTA are ambiguous provisions that could allow U.S. banks to demand compensation if Peru reverses its disastrous social security privatization. That's right, the Peru FTA could lock in the misery facing millions of the elderly and ill in that extremely poor country all to ensure U.S. firms can profit on what should be a government service available to all in the first place.
(jackson_dem’s 2 cents, this is not Edwards’ comment: I guess the people of Peru will just have to settle for “hope”)

-snip-

The Peru, Panama and Colombia agreements are also projected to displace millions of peasant farmers

-snip-

The presidents of Peru's labor unions oppose this NAFTA expansion. So does Peru's Archbishop Pedro Barreto, who calls the NAFTA expansion into Peru immoral - and a threat to the national security of his nation and ours.

http://www.art-us.org/node/282

Obama, the “candidate of change” did the bidding of the special interests once again on Peru with his support for it instead of using his celebrity status to fight it. This isn’t new for the “change” candidate who “opposes” corporate influence while raising $162 million. Here is Obama working for Exelon, a nuke firm which has given him more than $200,000 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/03/us/politics/03exelon.... and the drug industry (no candidate has raised more money from the drug industry than Obama) during in Illinois http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/08/09/p... /

When you think of free trade Democrats the two names that pop into most folk’s minds will probably be Clinton and Rubin. Surprisingly, Clinton is actually to the left of Obama on trade, seemingly confirming the National Journal’s assessment. A good analysis of Obama, Clinton, and McCain on trade is at http://benmuse.typepad.com/custom_house/2008/02/how-hav... Another good one is at http://blog.noslaves.com /

Basically Obama and Clinton are the same. Both share the free trade philosophy. However, Clinton wants to review all trade agreements and determine if they are working for Americans. Obama wants to only review NAFTA. Hillary wants a time-out for new trade agreements, something Obama snidely attacked her for in Wisconsin with his new temporary religion on trade. He basically called her a liar without mentioning that he has not come out for a time-out, something labor has long sought. She also opposed fast track trade authority. She has other planks on trade but Obama has those same ideas, which are basically Democratic boilerplate.

An important point needs to be made about CAFTA. Don’t be fooled into thinking voting against CAFTA was somehow an indication Obama is pro-fair trade deep down inside. Only 10 Democrats voted against it. That means even most of the DLC opposed it. http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/r...


What does all this mean? Barack Obama is a free trader in the Rubin/DLC tradition. He is not what he is masquerading now in Wisconsin and he is not what many folks voting for him because of the Clenis’ NAFTA are hoping he is. They are not looking at the records and actually would be worse off under Obama than Hillary. Hope is a great thing but blind hope can be hazardous to your health—and your job.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
85. Like when she took the WH at their word they wouldn't abuse their blank check for Iraq?
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #85
87. Yup. And her speech in support of it. I guess she WISHES those words were "cheap."
But they may cost her the nomination.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. About time...
*still bitter over 2004*
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #88
90. I agree.
It's past time!
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yeswecan08 Donating Member (134 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
89. She's all words as usual - she has nothing to offer America and the world
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-14-08 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. Yup-new slogans when her old ones fail. n/t
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