Regarding Florida And Michigan: The GrantCart (DUer) Solution...What Say You ???

Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4616752

This works for me.

Seating the delegates with the way things stand now would be unfair. And I don't want some do-over scheme putting the two states that violated the rules into the position of deciding the whole goddamned thing.

I say Yes!

What say you?

:shrug:

"WE WANNA HOLD OUR PRIMARY NOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!! AND YOU'RE GONNA SEAT OUR DELEGATES OR WE'RE GONNA KICK AND SCREAM AND HOLD OUR BREATH TIL WE TURN BLUE!"

Combine the idea in the OP with stripping the FL and MI superdelegates of their votes and you've got a plan.

What is the use with the super delegates making the decision. This "illegal" primary may well be the last presidential election I vote in.

I can't speak about FL, but Michigan's primary was a joke. No campaigning, Edward and Obama weren't on the ballot, and we were told that our primary wouldn't count.

I'm sure the turnout would have been much bigger if we had thought it was worth something. Maybe Hillary still would have won it, but at least we could have voted for *people* instead of *uncommitted*.

I don't like the idea of a do-over, either. Primaries are a snapshot of a moment in time. That time has past. The results of do-overs wouldn't be anything like the results would have been originally.

I'm thoroughly pissed of with my state party leaders. They're the ones who screwed us out of our votes. It's not the people of these states that are whining... the whining is being done by the state party leaders who screwed up in the first place.

The ones that made this stupid decision are to blame. I knew that my vote would be wasted and it was. This will be my last primary. The politicians in this state have really made a mess and I'm afraid they aren't done yet.

or be redone. I'll be a crybaby if they seat them based on the bogus results.

The ONLY fair and just solution is to have a primary revote with all names on the ballet. Since that will not happen, this is the best solution, and effectively just :web:

is that they do not count. Just like all the candidates and the party agreed back when both states stupidly decided to move their primaries forward. They just shouldn't count.

Cancel the Texas primary and refuse their delegates while your at it. Who cares if we disenfranchise millions of democratic voters, its about winning for your candidate right? Might as well start prank calling get out the vote offices to interfere with elections. Who cares about democracy or ethics, its all about me me me... :sarcasm:

they waited their turn like the rest of us.

:shrug:

So Florida voters are in the wrong is what you are saying? Or are you suggesting that the DNC should preform collective punishment on the Florida democratic electorate due to association with a few democratic state representatives? All of my state representation is Republican and I fight every election to change that, but why bother when the DNC doesn't want my vote anyway right?

After all, we're fighting against the Republicans, right???

:shrug:

How is 50/50 representative of the states vote? We voted, mainly due to the constitutional amendment. We had all of the names on our ballot. Count the vote as it is, divide the delegates as they break down based on our vote. If the primary can't be taken as valid due to the date, then make a paper absentee ballot with all names that were in our primary on it, mail it to every registered democrat in Florida with a prepaid postage envelope and let the voters vote again. If there is a paper record then no one will be able to question if the voting machines were rigged the second time around. Represent us based on our vote our suffer the consequences, its as simple as that.

take it up with your party hacks in Florida.

The rest of us live in states where they went by the agreed upon rules.

Sorry 'bout your luck.

:shrug:

Ah so disenfranchised voters and collective punishment of people in the millions has no effect on you. Well, it was nice meeting. Have a nice night...

that is more dems than most of the caucus's completed - combined.



and in Fla Edwards has delegates.

Edwards was viable on our ballots ..and he won 11 counties..obama won 8

so this plan is bullshit.

fly

That's called CHEATING.

right here where i live.. he said and did break the rules...

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/sep/30/obama-vows-do-whats-right/?news-breaking
Barack Obama held an impromptu news conference after a Tampa fundraiser Sunday.


By WILLIAM MARCH and ELAINE SILVESTRINI The Tampa Tribune

Published: September 30, 2007

TAMPA - Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national party sanctions prohibiting i

Obama also appeared to violate a pledge he and the other leading candidates took by holding a brief news conference outside the fundraiser. That was less than a day after the pledge took effect Saturday,and Obama is the first Democratic presidential candidate to visit Florida since then.Obama and others have pledged not to campaign in Florida until the Jan. 29 primary except for fundraising, which is what he was doing in Tampa.




obama broke his pledge also by having commericals come into florida with his nationl buy..yes he got permission ..but he broke his pledge.

the other candidates did not.


fly

y'all know the Clinton Campaign said the "fly over" states don't matter.

Its not like Dems want to have a majority congress.

We gots to get Clintons' back on their rightful place, the throne at the White House.

We OWE them, they know what is best for us.

Don't trust your feelings!!!!!!

:sarcasm:

Just that they have a seat?

That's all I can see. I don't think it's a good solution.

Why not just subtract half the number of total delegates of FL/MI from the total number of required delegates needed to win the nomination?

Almost the same thing as what you are proposing except that the FL/MI delegates would still not be seated per DNC rules.

The people of FL/MI changed their primary date knowing that they would not count. If they count now that would go against the wishes of the FL/MI people who wanted the 1/29/08 primary.

I say recognize the Florida primary vote as is, reward all delegates as would be distributed to all candidates. If the DNC can't live with that then they should send out absentee ballots including all names that were on the original electronic ballot to all Florida Democrats with a prepaid postage envelope included. The votes should be counted and all delegates should be rewarded. The voters are not at fault and we should not be penalized for others actions. If you want to penalize someone then do so to the Florida democrats in the state legislature that voted to pass the bill.

That would probably still be costly, but perhaps less costly than another standard election (?)

I agree with your sentiment completely.

Its definitely the way to go. This entire thing is due to the primary move being attached to an electronic voting machine ban and a mandatory paper trail. We want democracy! We want accountability! If an unjust DNC rule is upheld over the voice of the people, you might as well change the party name to something more authoritarian.

Easier to rig then manipulating a few computers that tally the vote of electronic voting machines. My guess would be that you're not very knowledgeable on computer programing or network security.

:kick:

Why should someone get half the delegates when that someone did not get half the votes?

And I think those folks really would like to go to Denver.

:shrug:

Hope ya don't mind...

I thought it was a great solution, and didn't want it to look like I was taking credit for it.

:shrug:

:hi:

to shut up many in here will be grateful.

We're the proud, the few...

:evilgrin:

it caught on and actually did something. lol.

Maybe he hasn't thought about this possibility.

:bounce:

But I want the DNC to deny credentials to any Democratic official or super delegate in Florida or Michigan who foisted this fiasco on us. They should be individually punished by the party by being denied any role in the Denver convention. They should not even be allowed on the floor.

:hi:

Don't reward the Florida and Michigan Democrats who made this mess happen.

Do punish the Florida and Michigan Democrats who made this mess happen.

Don't deny the Democrats of the state some representation in the process.

The simple fact is that in a straight up race between Obama and Hillary in both states, with proportional allocations, there wouldn't be 15 delegates difference in their respective numbers. Let's cut to the chase. Give both sides some delegates, and not allow either state to have any impact on the nomination.

I was for some sort of do-over at first, but the more I thought about it... Hell No!

It would probably come way late in the game, and I DO NOT WANT FL & MI deciding the contest. Even if it's a remote possibility, it still stinks to high heaven.

:shrug:

than not sending them?

I understand that the people in FL and MI may not understand that, but not sending anyone has the same effect as dividing the delegates up 50/50 when there are 2 delegates doesn't it?

Dividing them 50/50 seems to be based on the theory that the people of FL and MI will somehow believe they are having an effect on the primary when in reality they are not.

I believe FL and MI need to stand in the corner and think about what they did. We need to do nothing to make them feel better about the stupid thing they did.

in the nominating process but not effect it. They also will be able to participate without restriction on platform issues that they may feel are important to their state.

If you've never been a delegate or alternate to the national convention, you can't imagine how exciting it is for those who have labored to help the party. We need to reward those good Democrats who played no role in this sordid mess.

Splitting the delegations down the middle isn't a perfect solution, but it avoids a circumstance which encourages states' party officials to go renegade.

since Edwards won more counties than Obama did in the Jan29th election..Edwards won 11 counties to Obama's 8 counties..and Edwards was a viable candidate when 1.7 million democrats voted in a legal election

on the state records right now..Edwards qualified for 13 delegates from Florida!

fly

before anyone else did ..right here where i live..thats why i know he cheated snd i kept this article just in case it was needed for Edwards..although at the time i sent it to Edwards camp..they were well aware of it..but it seems many obamaites are not aware that their boy cheated before the ink was really dry on the pledge he signed..

and oh yes..i know he got permission to run his ads in florida from a non floridian democrat..but he ran ads in florida ..unlike any other dem candidate ..and against the pledge he signed..along with all the other candidates who lived up to their pledges..

and he still lost Florida over whelmingly..with 1.7 million dem voters..a record number of primary dem voters..and more than almost all the caucus state voters combined!

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/sep/30/obama-vows-do-whats-right/?news-breaking
Barack Obama held an impromptu news conference after a Tampa fundraiser Sunday.


By WILLIAM MARCH and ELAINE SILVESTRINI The Tampa Tribune

Published: September 30, 2007



TAMPA - Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national party sanctions prohibiting it.

Obama also appeared to violate a pledge he and the other leading candidates took by holding a brief news conference outside the fundraiser. That was less than a day after the pledge took effect Saturday, and Obama is the first Democratic presidential candidate to visit Florida since then.Obama and others have pledged not to campaign in Florida until the Jan. 29 primary except for fundraising, which is what he was doing in Tampa.

But after the fundraiser at the Hyde Park home of Tom and Linda Scarritt, Obama crossed the street to take half a dozen questions from reporters waiting there.

The pledge covers anything referred to in Democratic National Committee rules as "campaigning," and those include "holding news conferences.

Obama seemed unaware the pledge he signed prohibits news conferences. Asked whether he was violating it, he said, "I was just doing you guys a favor. … If that's the case, then we won't do it again."




fly a 2004 Florida dem delegate

We have to put this behind us, we have to let some good Democrats in Florida represent, and we have to avoid rewarding willful flaunting of the rules.

I would not mind a caucus being mandated, but that takes a lot of time and planning, and we don't really have the time for that.

The message will be clear for all states in the future: If you do this, the Democrats who created the mess will be excluded from the convention.

HE chose to do that. I say NO.

Hillary certainly didn't.

not honorable.

he probably thought that the party rules and candidate agreements really meant something.

I guess he is naive.

But he's got my support for the naivete of honor.

:shrug:

Stupidity does not = Honor. sorry.

Win at all costs. Ends justify the means. Rules are for losers.

Am I missing your point here?

:shrug:

You must want this Hillary nomination... REALLY, REALLY, Badly...

Is standing up for voters now taboo in the Obama wing of the Democratic Party?

How about the LONG STANDING RULE that the Super Delegates vote for the candidate they CHOOSE TO VOTE FOR? Do you stand by THAT rule too?

that good old cynical Clinton style Big States Only USA

Stupidity does not = honor.

get stuck and can't figure out why he did it ask me later and I'll tell you.

didn't have to do.

If that's acceptable to you and your candidate, so be it. It's unacceptable to me and it's unacceptable to Hillary. Shame on her for standing up for the voters in Michigan and Florida. She should be stoned.:eyes:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23209237/page/2/

"As leader of the Democratic Party, I strongly urge you to adhere to the 2008 delegate selection rules. The 2008 Delegate Selection Rules. ... The 2008 Delegate Selection Rules adopted by the full DNC at its August 2006 meeting clearly provide that only four states - Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire," "South Carolina - may hold their respective contests prior to February 5, '08. The finding of noncompliance included a 100 percent loss of pledged and unpledged delegates."

If you tried to move your primary up, you've lost all your delegates. Florida and Michigan did it, they lost all their delegates.

The Clinton campaign put out this statement: "We believe Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina play a unique and special role in the" nomination "process." "We believe the DNC's rules and its calendar provide the necessary structure to respect and honor that role. Thus, we will be signing the pledge to adhere to the DNC approved nominating calendar."

:shrug:

He could have done what all the other candidates did and not run ANY National ads, but he chose to cheat instead.


No one made Obama take his name off the ballots. He chose to do that himself. The voters of Michigan and Florida want to be heard and Hillary is defending them. Stone her!

you start by saying that Obama's move to take his name off the ballot in MI (you are mistaken about Florida a candidate has no say whether or not his name is on the ballot) when in fact it completely neutralizes the validity of the poll. Then you make the sarcastic comment that all Hillary is doing is standing up for the voters even though you are presented press releases from her own campaign that said earlier she agrees that MI and FL should not be seated. You do not respond to the point being discussed and your points are completely berift of logic and you can never site any source that reinforces your postion. You are waisting my time and will become my 2nd ignore. good luck.

If Hillary gets delegates from Florida or Michigan, and if this results in her getting the nomination, she will have cheated in order to become president. We saw that at the beginning of this decade, and we don't need it again, especially from a Democrat. Woebedite the thug motherfuckers who try to steal another election. And their simpering-fuck followers too.

Is because she gets more delegates. Certainly not fair based on the rules, especially not fair in the case of Michigan.

Dont confuse her drive, ambition, and selfishness with standing up for the voters.

stone her!

Obama made the CHOICE to remove his name from the MI and FL ballots. No one made him do that.

instead of focusing 100% on what-to-do-with-the-delegates-in-2008, address the underlying reasons that some states felt they had to stage a small revolution.

I'm in Michigan. Seat the delegates, don't seat the delegates, favor Clinton, favor Obama, whatever. Do something.

But address the problem in the SYSTEM. The reason people rebelled against it is that we were already feeling disenfranchised, and I have not seen anyone higher up willing to even acknowledge that a problem exists - other than the problem that were weren't quietly accepting our status as disenfranchised.

Democrat FIRST.

Lets Unite to beat the republican candidate in November. No more betrayal and siding up with McCain or trying to break the Democratic Party by changing the rules when you are not satisfied with the result of them!!!

MI (I'm in Fla), but we knew it wouldn't count when we voted. I went because of the property tax amendment.

What we REALLY need to do is vote out any incumbent who is running for reelection in Nov - they got us into this mess. Select a whole new crop of weasels. If they're not weasels now, it appears that it doesn't take all that long for them transmogrify into weasels.

I sure as shit wouldn't feel "represented" by having the DNC say that regardless of how my state voted one person gets half as does the other one.

Might work in kindergarten.

As for punishment, I don't see it as being required. "Breaking" the DNC's bullshit rules so that we can have yet ANOTHER rigged fucking election shouldn't fly for anyone.

Now it's a solution? Worthy of the Supreme Court, I suppose.

:shrug:

The first I heard of it was from GrantCart, but it seems you had it goin on too.

Great minds on this board, I tell ya.

:hi:

... I hadn't seen it anywhere, but it seems like such a sensible solution I am sure it was discussed even before.

More discussion is always good.

:toast:

send all the 'fuck yous' to me

Allow all the delegates to vote on everything except the presidential nominee.

A lot of DUers have come up with creative ideas. The Shillbots won't accept anything less than seating everyone, because no other solution would favor Hillary Clinton as much.

This contempt for the rules and the voters is disgusting. I never thought I'd see DUers defending cheating.

winning at all costs. Nice.

:shrug:

That is it. Let them moan and groan and pitch a fit. In the end, Obama's cushion will be enough to protect from this crap.

constituents voted.

or out of the nominating process all together.

:shrug:

would that be more just than not voting at all?

"I'm a disenfranchised Dem in MI who says 'fuck you' to grantcart"

That's the one I'd check.

Julie

I don't see how it's gonna happen any other way.

:shrug:

Everyone gets representation but the two states that tried to hijack the system get no voice in determining the outcome, a fitting and just punishment.

It seems to me this is calling for MI & FLA to get no voice, it's even considered a "fitting and just punishment".

Way to throw the Dem base under the bus.

Julie

Taking the votes as they stand is the epitome of unfairness.

So the question is, how do we make it right?

:shrug:

Take MI & FLA out of the Dem column this November and what do you have?

President McCain, that's what.

Don't take my word for it, keep promoting the disregard of these two states and see for yourself.

Julie

Clinton should not be benefitted by leaving her name on the ballot.

I've thought this is the way it is going to shake out for a while now.

Maybe if you were informed your vote would not be counted, you would have a different perspective. Learn more about the subject, Hillary was not the only one not removing her name from the ballot.

per the DNC request.

The DNC is fucked, This at last shows what Dean's abilities are.

That would be fair, the only other thing that is fair is not seating the delegates as the DNC mandated initially.

besides it also would not be fair

possible because of the time involved.

In Washington State for example the parties decided to have caucuses instead but since the election was required they went ahead with a primary even though it had no effect for the democrats (the republicans split half caucus half primary)

Parties could go ahead with caucuses on their own but primaries require using state lists, ballots, counting by county election officials, preparation of legal ballots, all of it has to be certified by the Secretary of State.

What about the folks in both states that didnt go to the polls because they were told their votes wouldnt count?

The delegates should not be seated as is.

many of our citizens go north in the summer..and are not in Florida to vote in a re vote


and who would notify many to ...get an absentee ballot.. because the first election..the real election ..was thrown out?

most Floridians are here in Fla in the winter..we have many snow birds that are Floridian residents..that have other homes as well up north..in the summer or after Easter..

and I am one..

fly a 2004 dem delegate for the state of Fla.

as much as not seating them at all.

it would be just or fair....or acceptable.

But in MI, the "will of the voters" has been ignored, due to the "will of the party hacks".

The current standing is a joke - many for HRC, less for "uncommitted".

50-50 sounds good. So does just not seating them. Current proportion was due to a flawed process, and another vote seems like a waste of money/time.

What about those who didnt vote after being told their delegates would not be seated?

The ballot was incomplete, delegates were not going to "count". Some voted the way they wanted, some voted in the repub contest because half their delegates would be seated, some stayed home.

A new vote, by primary or caucus, would entail new rules be established for it. Such as, who gets to participate? Everyone? Everyone but people who voted in the repub primary? Everyone who voted in the dem primary? When would it happen? 7-9am on a Saturday?

The new vote seems like a big expense, hassle, and ultimately perhaps still unfair. So a 50-50 split gets delegates in the door in a sort-of-fair way.

I just hope that SOMEONE gets so many delegates before the primary that Super-d's, MI, and FL could not sway the result. Fat chance of that, eh?

And nobody suggests evenly splitting the votes.

There's no perfect election anywhere. But we accept the results of them all the time.

is to not seat the delegates. That's the solution that's quick, easy, cheap, and meets the expectations at the time of the MI primary.

I think the OP is just trying to get our opinion of one flavor of "waffle".

except it ignores over 2 million votes cast, and pisses off two large, important states we'll need in November.

But... it helps your guy get the nomination, so I guess it's got that going for it, huh?

And don't have any Republicans claim to be Democrats (which is what's happening in Florida now) until a group organizes that is willing to operate as an alternative to the Republicans.

FL and MI will not determine the winner, unless, of course they do what Delaware and Washington State did in years past and redo an election. I'm assuming they won't.

So what will happen is that after all states cast their votes the super delegates will be pressed to publically state their preference. Unless it is a delegate tie, the winner of the delegate margin will get more than half of the super delegates. The loser will be unable to convince a majority. Of course they will be allowed to vote their conscience, but the winner of the most votes will have the more convincing argument, obviously. Then we will have a defacto nominee, and the loser will concede and release their delegates. If they don't concede, they would be marginalized politically by incurring the wrath of their own party. At that point the FL and MI delegates will be awarded, however, the majority like in every other state will coalesce around the winner.

And yes Chelsea Clinton, I am clairvoyant.

Either seat the delegates as they were voted, or hold another primary at the Party's expense (since they were the ones who fucked the voters.

The delegates get seated but have no say in the outcome.

But still get to go.

:hi:

Rots of ruck trying to win the WH without MI or FLA. :hi:

Julie

and assign votes to the body parts.

:sarcasm:

It gets FL an MI delegates to the convention. Some things to consider. Obama, might have done better in FL if he could have campaigned. Hillary was already well known. Candidates could not remove their names from the FL ballot because it would have disqualified them from the general election ballot.

In MI, Obama (and Edwards) removed their names based on party rules. Hillary benefited from ignoring those rules. Re-running these elections is not perfect either. I think it would be a disadvantage for Hillary.

--IMM