Hillary Clinton is America's best hope.....

...for winning against the GOP......and you can rant and rave at me all you want about how wonderful Obama is and how he's going to change things.

But the facts are he is unproven, he's all talk and very little action. He's been handled with kid gloves for almost the entire primary season. If he's criticized on any level then the naysayer, whoever it may be is charged with alienating the youth vote, race baiting, not being for hope and change, etc.

America loves a hero......and after 8 years of Bush people are desperate to put their faith in someone who promises them hope and change.......regardless of the fact that someone has no plans of substance on how he will accomplish much less what he will accomplish. I honestly think Americans can't see past the glow of their tv screens and the Oprah glitz that has surrounded Obama this campaign season. I hear mothers gush that their 12 year old daughter is fired up over Obama........what the hell? Since when do adults take advice from 12 year old children on who to vote for? I doubt seriously any 12 year old understands Economic Policy, Foreign Policy or the debate on National Health Care for everyone......I suppose a 12 year olds' advice is ok though when even the candidate's most ardent fans can't hold a discussion on exactly what their candidate's policy and position is on much of any issue.

This campaign season I have witnessed supposed Democrats lambaste how horrible it all was under Bill Clinton's presidency in their attempts at re-writing history....... Well ya know what? They are wrong.......damned wrong and they should be ashamed at their pathetic attempts to smear a fellow Democrat with the lies and bullshit they spout. Over and over again, a rational person will talk and post of all Bill Clinton's accomplishments whilst President and it has all fallen on deaf ears, because to believe Clinton was a good President for America might put a niggling doubt in the back of an Obamamaniac's mind concerning their own candidate.

This campaign season I have seen the race card played left and right......but it was played and used by Obama, not the Clintons.......and if Obama was accused of playing the race card, he and his supporters then became the victims of 'those horrible racists'. Just total bullshit people. Bill and Hillary Clinton are not now and never have been racist and in fact have been highly supported by the African American community all across America until this campaign season.

Race has been tiptoed around and around this entire campaign season. When a candidate is getting 80 to 90 percent of the black vote then that fact means people are voting due to race. Yes I said it. Flame me, but it's an ugly secret that we all know is happening but we can't mention it because it wouldn't be politically correct.......we can however, bring up the fact over and over again that some women support Hillary in part because she is a woman........and it's perfectly acceptable to attack them for such thinking.

All campaign season I have seen an extraordinary woman slandered, slammed, mauled and verbally spit on by 'fellow' Democrats, the press, political hacks, etc....and through it all she has kept her head high, spoken on her knowledge of the issues that face us and this country and done it all while under fire from people so afraid she will do a damn good job that for whatever reason it enrages them beyond rational thought.

Let me just close with a some advice.......if you thought the campaign season up until now has been ugly then you had better fasten your seat belts, because the GOP Supreme Ugly Machine is starting to set it's sights on Obama and they will not handle him with the kid gloves we Democrats have. They are damned good at what they do best and what they do best is to cut Democrats off at the knees and throw salt on their wounds while they bleed to death. We know this because we have been seeing it happen for 8 long years.

There's only one Democrat I know who is brave enough, savvy enough and has the chutzpah to take on the GOP and win and that Democrat is Hillary. Your choice......and if you chose wrong.......then I freely expect to tell you "I told you so and you wouldn't listen".

so they'll go for Hillary?

What do you know about America, anyway?

and change," per the OP.

This is Hillary? What planet is this person from?

"This campaign season I have seen the race card played left and right......but it was played and used by Obama, not the Clintons."

See, I can play dumb, too. Or is the OP really serious about that?

that Hillary had played the race card (LOL - excellent Rove technique if you admire that sort of thinking) - and then 30 days later Obama agreeing that she hadn't played the race card - but she then saying that she should control her supporters (over language that had to be stretched beyond reasonableness to get a non-innocent interpretation) - all the while keeping "race card" the only discussion point and preventing discussion of his thin resume during that 30 days.

I am sure the OP is serious about his comment - and he should be serious because he is correct.

The way Obama has "won" is via college educated white males afraid of women, college educated white women who don't give a damn about other women, the Starbucks crowd, and the college towns that vote for the youngest every time - all of which if added to a 70/30 split of the AA vote would mean Obama would lose.

But with a 90/10 AA vote Obama wins. Now the unions are joining the gang and it is hard to see how Hillary does a comeback when the media has been 24/7 - and can be expected to be 24/7 in the future -twisting story selection and story lines to favor Obama.

So it is obvious why Obama played the race card.

What is not obvious is the reason that the normally smart folks on DU did not call him on it - perhaps it was the win at any cost/dump on Hillary with any comment whether true or false mood of DU.

and i agree. Although Obama won't be much in the way of progressive politics, Clinton will be even less. i don't want to vote for either of them, but between them it's a pretty clear choice who's going to be more status quo than the other. This is neither dense nor ignorant.

Go Hillary! Go Hillary! Go! :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :boun:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :boun:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :boun:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :boun:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

hehe a very good statement coming from a supporter of a man that will try to reclaim our status in the world. Yes you can.

The number of democrat voters will outnumber republican voters, no matter who is the candidate.

I doubt Hillary will be able to take on the republicans, when her camp is split on how to deal with Obama.

This campaign season I have witnessed supposed Democrats lambaste how horrible it all was under Bill Clinton's presidency in their attempts at re-writing history....... Well ya know what? They are wrong.......damned wrong and they should be ashamed at their pathetic attempts to smear a fellow Democrat with the lies and bullshit they spout.

We've experienced the horror of these past eight years, and I suspect many on this board have personally suffered under the watch of Bushco. I think it's an insult to these folks to try to convince them that the Clinton's are responsible for Bushco-era policies. I wonder if that's why Michelle is not 'really proud' right about now.

They are part of mob madness, non-political, cheerleaders rooting for the home team without even knowing the score. Not all, but most are swooning over him because of his race, age, or rhetoric. He has great potential but I fear this primary season will snuff the potential out because he has been given a free ride. And if that ride takes him to the WH we will end up like the Republicans after a GW Bush administration: Buyers' remorse.

:eyes:

he's Valerie Plame's husband
he's my postman

The arrogance of Team Hillary, so much smarter... NOT

the Hillaryis44.com bullshit generator has gone into overdrive... :eyes:

Look at the top of the Greatest Page, with over 100 recs, and you'll see the http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3192181">story about the Secret Service ordering security to stop screening Obama's attendees. Isn't this just a little dangerous? Don't you think Obama KNOWS that he is risking his life to do this?

And Wilson calls him a coward, publicly, in an editorial piece. Wilson deserves to be hurled under the bus. The bus needs to stop and back up over him a few time. It's almost unforgivable. And he only diminishes himself.

Wilson needs to show some character, we all know he used to have some, and apologize for being an ignorant hack.

indication of how well Obama has made this a nomination about race - sensitive black police - made extra sensitive by Obama - appear to have been worried about no metal detectors - forgetting that most rallies do not have metal detectors.

http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Sports/2008/02/22/secret_service_says_obama_rally_was_secure/8554/

Is Joe Wilson somehow linked to the SS order to stop screening?

Please link to Wilson's comment about about Obama, because the one I read had nothing in it that required an apology.

"She does not have a cowardly record of voting "present" when confronted with difficult issues. She does not claim "intuition" as the basis of the most dangerous and serious decision-making."

The Real Hillary I Know -- and the Unreal Obama : Joseph C. Wilson

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-wilson/the-real-hillary-i-know-_b_77878.html


Wilson is a pretty smart guy. Why does he go out of his way to call Obama a coward, especially over something that has nothing at all to do with courage? As far as political courage goes, Obama has stood up to the public law enforcement community in Ohio, and eventually won them over to his side. I don't recall Hillary ever showing this kind of political courage or acumen, she's just adept at participating in food fights, and yet Wilson finds it appropriate to challenge Obama's guts over something so trivial?


Wilson stood up to Saddam, under pain of death. He knows something about courage.

not to be a strong person.

Wilson has shown much character unlike yourself and Mr. Obama.

I keep hearing how the youth of
the nation support Obama. It is
great that they are getting involved
in the political process but, it
worries me that the majority of them
are still living on their parents'
dime and have no real clue of life
in a working middle class world.
I am not so sure I want unexperienced
people deciding how this country should be run.
Yeah, I am a crotchety baby boomer.

Both those guys were the "smart choice", and both absolutely got their asses kicked in the GE. HRC is a horrible, horrible candidate by any measure.

The only way that Hillary is a horrible
candidate is according to a Republican
mindset. The only one I say is a horrible,
horrible candidate in the election now is
McCain.
The GOP thanks you for your support.

From InTrade.com

HRC's buy prices for her being elected president have tanked in the last month. People that don't bullshit around with their money are saying she's toxic.

1/22 - $47
2/22 - $11

are buying new dentures.

:rofl:

:toast:

I have to try to remember that one.

He was the smart choice. His run was not anywhere near the Dukakis one. Obama is lucky to have Kerry as an ally.

The Hillary Bashing shows that you really don't understand what happening in our country right now...too bad we might have to suffer because the "majority" has been brainwashed and now are braindead!

I doubt you know that many young people if you think they don't know what working is like.

We, you see, actually have to face this economy without having years of equity built up in our houses.

You know, that equity that you boomers have triple-mortgaged against to finance your lifestyle, driving rent prices up so much that we have to work three jobs.

If we're really going to make this a generational thing, I'd say a boomer is someone who has to have three mortgages, and an Xer is someone who has to work three jobs.

Most boomers I know worked 2 or 3 jobs to buy their houses. I know I did and I was 36 yearls old when I bought my first house........WHEN Bill Clinton and the economy under him finally allowed me to be financially able to buy one. And I never had 3 mortgages..........not even 2.......and never a sub-prime.

When I entered the job market, graduates were waiting a year or two to land that entry level job. Reagan was President then.

Every single generation has hardships........don't expect life to be handed to you on a silver platter.

Ours have been dropping.

I was damned lucky; I'm good with computers. Most people my age are barely scraping by; certainly they're nowhere near as well off as our parents were when they were approaching 30.

I want that crystal ball that allows
you to see into my life and cast judgements
like that. I have a 26 year old and a 21
year old, I have a multitude of youth in
and out of my house and in and out of our
beach house. The majority of the kids still
rely on their parents, even mine to a certain
extent.
As far as generational, I am only 45..the tail
end of the boomer era. I have worked extremely
hard and have invested wisely and not purchased
above my means. I have NO mortgages but, I do
OWN 3 homes and a farm. I have NO debt.
I sit at home and make more than most do
working. I came from living in my car to this
point. So I guess I am stupid, a bullshitter,
whatever. You have not got a clue..I used to
think older people did not know what they were
talking about, I wised up and benefited from
someone else's experience.

I want that crystal ball that allows
you to see into my life and cast judgements
like that.

You mean like the one that helped you say people under 30 are mostly "living on their parents dime"?

The majority of the kids still
rely on their parents, even mine to a certain
extent.

Well, I had to pay for college myself, along with most of the people I went to school with, because my parents' net worth was at that point 0 (it's now negative).

I have worked extremely
hard and have invested wisely and not purchased
above my means. I have NO mortgages but, I do
OWN 3 homes and a farm.

In all seriousness, I salute your foresight and hard work. I don't see many people your age and older who have their shit together that much; I mostly see a bunch of still-juvenile prodigals who are making an economic mess that I'm going to have to clean up after.

I did not get to go to college.
I left home at 17. Ain't got
nuttin' but a danged ol' GED.

I could not tell you my parents'
net worth because I have not asked
them for a thing since I left.

Thanks for the compliment. :hi:

as a hard-working youngin getting paid little and working 80+ hours for myself, i object

Many boomers are still working 3 jobs, taking care of aging parents and grown children.

Crotchety grandma.

:pals:

Our parents - and I exclude mine here, they are exceptional - have turned running up debt into an art form. You Baby Boomers are going to leave our generation with a national debt so humongous it'll take years of hard work just to get to the point where we can start paying it off. And that's just the national debt. Forget the fact that individual household debt in this country averages in 5 figures. Where does that debt go when you finally kick it? Straight to us, that's where.

Living on our parents dime? That's some nerve.

YOU are living off OUR dime.

Hmmmmmmmm, Maybe we should rescind their right as free thinking American citizens untill they realize that they should be voting for Hillary. Or perhaps send them to a Hillary ReEducation camp so they fall in line for the inevitable candidate. Personally I am one of the older delusional Obama supporters.

Your "hope" that things will change by November is weak.

NOT:eyes: ......and they change on a day to day basis. America is fickle. Opinion blows whichever direction the hot air is the strongest in.

We should just go with our gut in the primaries as to who would be the best president. America will decide in November who it wants, based upon America's fickle opinions at that time.

And they're not going to vote for a Bush enabler.

Madame Enabler who believed in her own entitlement is being shown the door by the voters. The sHillbots can malign those who don't support Bill's wife all they want but their spin doesn't cover HRC's inept campaign, questionable 35 years (20 as First Lady) of experience and the past 7 years of going along with Bush to get ahead politically!

All that text to come to a Clintonesque conclusion, that's pathetic.

Winning against the GOP is not the most important thing, in my mind. But reversing Bushco's misdeeds is. If we just want to win, we should elect someone who will abstractly promise all things to all people, and therefore make us feel good. I think it's more important to get UNIVERSAL healthcare, an end to the war, and start spending some of of considerable national wealth on things like raising children, education. Our leader should be unflinching on these things, even if she's perceived to be polarizing or partisan.

rethugs, imagine that....sure, why not, so nothing can get done.

We will stay stagnated, no vision, no perspective, nothing to show.

What a lame thought.

Good Luck chutzpah.......:rofl:

Has there been a single poll showing Hillary getting better results against McCain in the General Election than Obama?

...that a candidate polling behind McCain nationally will somehow reverse that trend.

Furthermore, we're being asked to hope that the candidate who has managed to run a shoo-in campaign into the ground and blow $140 million with very little in the way of results is somehow going to change everything and run the kind of campaign that will beat McCain (and they call Obama a hopemonger...)

Meanwhile, we're being sternly warned by the very campaign that has lost 12 jurisdictions by double digits and has had most of its thunder stolen by a very impressively-run campaign, that the campaign that's beating them is going to implode (you know, essentially like her campaign already did once) but that she'll do great.

has one. out of a much larger number than one.

And if Hillary is so savvy, why is she losing?

...For more of the same 'politics as usual' and divisiveness and getting nothing substantial done in Washington that I have had to endure for my entire adult life.

I honestly think that McCain would probably bring more 'change' (to use an overused word) to Washington than HRC would. Might not be change that I would approve of, but at least it would be something different. Obama will shake things up.

No thanks on Hillary in '08.

being in the WH 16 years (or more) with a Clinton Win & the right (incumbent) VP to run in 2016.

This is the first time in many years we have been in a position to make this happen with the Republican Party completely unorganized and no favorite son.......

I have to say, I don't see this happening with anyone else. I hope I'm wrong, but I've participated in politics and watched the Republican Party or Machine for too many years to think otherwise.


It's been said and posted here that Hillary has split the party when in fact, her competitor is the division. I would hazard a guess that he knew he would be.

So be it. We can't let a woman be one up on a man, regardless of the game or in this case, the future of America. :sarcasm:

negatives are far too high and she is too despised by many indies and republicans.

While they would be willing to vote for an Obama, many would NOT be willing to vote for a Hillary.


GOBAMA! Bringing Texas home to Obama.

I think that when america gets to know hillary, the tide will turn.
she actually came within 17 points of a clear win in Wisconsin, so clearly has MOmentum.

and right, who was brave enough to oppose bush when it mattered? who opposed the IWR? Obama said nothing in the US Senate. and hillary opposed it with all her strength. (didn't she?)

:applause:

All I can say to that is AMEN!Nothing more to add 'cept thank you! and K&R!!!!!!!

and just damn.

Welcome to D.U.! B-)

Back in the dark days when Dubya stole the first election in 2000 I comforted myself with Hillary's Senate win. I told myself and those around me..."Don't worry, Hillary's in the Senate. She'll keep an eye on this bozo and reign him in."

And then I waited..and waited...and waited. Guess what? It NEVER HAPPENED! She voted for the war with Iraq--when TONS of people KNEW (not suspected--KNEW) it was wrong. She voted for the Patriot Act.....Need I go on?

What can I say, she's been a dismal disappointment for me--she has NEVER stood up to Bush. So, truthfully, how is she going to "clean up" after him? She's going to let him get away scott free!

I agree, Barack is mostly a blank page--but I'm more than willing to give him a chance. I want our country back and I know the Clinton's aren't going to accomplish this. Maybe, just maybe Barack will!

was cutting Dems off at the knee, as you say? Seems to me both Clintons were PUBLICLY supporting Bush on his major decisions and urged Dems to not oppose Bush.

You think Bill defended Bush for 3 solid weeks in 2004 because he was naive about how media would spin it?
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/19/clinton.iraq/

You think Carville didn't KNOW Bush would call Blackwell?
http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did_carville_tip_bush_off_to_kerry_strategy_woodward


You think Hillary really believed Bush's lie that Kerry insulted the troops?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk1k0nUWEQg


Don't even DARE try to attempt to snow us that Clintons opposed Bush - if they HAD stood and led ANY Dem opposition to Bush the last 7 years, Hillary would have won this primary by now.

That was so completely disingenuous.

She came across just a little like a Republican with her phony condemnation of Kerry.

I’m new to this board, and I’m sure my thoughts will be suspect and perceived as naive, but in reading through all the threads and comments, I’m reminded of where I was politically eight years ago. I was pretty oblivious and uninformed (with no excuse). Then 911 happened. Bingo! Suddenly I am horrified, extremely patriotic and feeling scared. So, I was swept up into the Bush movement…..war!! Pretty scarey, huh?

Looking back, I can’t believe I was ever that gullible, but I was. This Obama-mania seems very similar. I would be willing to bet that most of the masses of people swept up are uninformed (excluding all of you on this board, of course). They just know something is terribly wrong with our country, something needs to “Change”, and Obama seems to have the simple answer….”Yes We Can”. He says we don’t need experience in Washington – that would be politics as usual, and the audience screams with agreement. It’s amazing!!

If ever in our history we need smart experience – it’s now. I support Hillary and appreciate her life, her experience, her passion, her guts, her strength, and her ability to be Commander in Chief. Is this really a time in our history that electing a President should be a “Movement”?

Looking forward to seeing Hillary tonight! Go Hillary!!

:)

Welcome to DU. :hi:

I respectfully disagree with your last three paragraphs, and warm welcome to a new DUer nonetheless.

Northernsoul for the welcome...disagreeing with me is perfectly acceptable...:)

Just kidding, you'll do fine here. Jump right on in.

Anyone who thinks that she can , hasn't been paying attention.

Many votes that are going to Obama are from republican men that hate Hillary. They will flip to McCain.

maybe those who weren't affected directly by Bill Clintons administration cant see what it did and still does to many, many families across this country. I know that in America nowadays, if it doesn't affect you personally that it doesn't matter but I was raised to care about my fellow neighbor even if their situation wasn't hurting mine. Its a shame at how the system has allot of Americans just not giving a shit about others because they didn't go through the same situation. I almost wish for those that are like that to have the same negative situations to destroy their lives so they could wake up and care about other people too, then maybe America could get back to the way it was.

Hopefully Clinton wins the presidency and can change something that will destroy some of the folks lives that haven't been affected yet and then they can see that one persons view of life is not the ultimate truth and that others don't live the same lives as they do. The ignorance of some is amazing to me.

Thank you Bill Clinton for NAFTA and what it did to my father and our family. I will never forget how my fathers pride changed when he found himself unable to provide for us as he worked a minimum wage bullshit job just trying to give us something. His later years before he passed just weren't the same no matter how much we told him it was ok.

So you can go ahead and talk about how great he was but I am not ashamed about the way I feel about him and his republican friends that teamed up to pass that nonsense!

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/71

there's a lot to not like about both of those banner carriers of the DLC

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/74

This metaphor is from BartCop.

It's not anything like that. The fact is that Hillary is detested by large numbers of Americans. It's an insurmountable obstacle in my opinion.

she has not stood up to Bush during her Senate career and
she cannot even compete with a formidable primary campaign opponent

Since this isn't happening, the "all-star" status might be unwarranted, or that first-round draftee is an all-star as well.

The standard line from the more abrasive factions of the Hillary camp is that Obama is an all-style no-substance freshman Senator. If this is so, the fact that she's not destroying him in the primaries speaks very poorly of Clinton's supposed "experience". If she can't easily win over somebody as weak as Obama is supposed to be, then how's she going to deal with the much more experienced McCain?

garbage. First of all, you parrot hilly talking points like you've been trained- or hitting Hillaryis44. And you smear Obama and his supporters. That's not gonna work. At all.

Face it, Americans are rejecting Hilly and hubby. And it's not just repukes or independents. I hope like hell she continues running her inept campaign into the ground, because I believe that this country does NOT need the Clintons back in the White House.

My thoughts are my own...........and mostly I am disgusted at watching people like you try to tear her down, whatever the cost.

people like YOU trying to tear Obama AND his supporters down. And I've defended Hill more times than I can count. Your OP was nasty and you're gonna get hostile responses when you deliberately offend people. If you don't like it, don't do it. Oh, and she's plunged her own campaign into disarray.

....Especially after you just have gotten off suspension for your own nasty posts.

You have never defended Hillary. And if you want to talk how I have offended people then we'll take a poll on how many people's ignore list I am on vs you. :eyes:

in OPs as well as in indiividual posts. In fact, before I decided for Obama, I was frequently called a Hillbot. Oh and alerted. You just broke the rules yourself.

:eyes:

Because all I ever saw him post were defenses of Hillary. But that was before the primaries finally started.

Prior to Hillary's 3rd place finish in Iowa, the snarkiness from the Hillary supporters on this board was horrendous. Not that they are being very gracious in defeat. But it was a heck of a lot worse in November/December.

Eventually even someone like cali who spent so much time defending Hillary had to get fed up.

She has defended Hillary many times, and has called bullshit on us Obama supporters when we posted ridiculous posts. I once thought she was a Hillary supporter, too. Then I realized she was just trying to be fair, and she is, almost all of the time. The OP is off base here.

A few facts for you. First, if Hillary gets the nomination, she's just guaranteed herself that every single 'Pug, conservative and RW fundy will turn out on election day to vote against her. Her very name is a magnet, and people will turn out in droves to vote against her. It won't matter who's running against her, it could be a dead dog, and these people will vote for it over Hillary. Obama doesn't carry that sort of baggage, and with him as the nominee many of the conservative, RW fundies will stay at home out of disgust over McCain.

Second, the anti-war left will either stay home or go Green in droves if Hillary gets the nomination. These people are dead serious about holding Hillary accountable, and simply won't vote for her come November. You think that Nader played a role in '00? Put Hillary into the slot this year and you'll truly see what throwing the election is all about. Again, Obama doesn't have that war baggage, and the anti-war left won't balk about voting for him.

Third, conservative Democrats and Independents will break for McCain in large numbers. This is why the rabid right hates McCain, they think that since he is "liberal" enough to pull in conservative Dems, he's too left to be a good conservative. McCain will take a very large slice out of the middle, leaving very little for Hillary.

Furthermore, if Clinton can't win against Obama, what makes you think that she can win against McCain? She's running a horrible campaign, having a tough time raising money, and her campaign is deep in debt. These are not the signs of a winning campaign.

Look, I understand partisanship and all that, but sooner or later you really need to wake up and smell the coffee. Hillary would be the worst candidate we could pick at this point, and if she somehow manages to get the nomination, you can say hello to president McCain.

They are your opinions.......and if Obama gets the nomination and loses the GE (which he will-that's my opinion) .....then you and I can get together and have a cup of that coffee and I'll explain to you where you went wrong. :donut:

Do you deny that a Hillary nomination will energize the right? Hell, all you have to do is troll the RW sites, Faux news and the like to see that. Or better yet, talk to some of your conservative friends, family or co-workers.

You don't think the anti-war left will stay home if Hillary gets the nod? Then you haven't been paying attention around here, and in the real world. Molly Ivins, Michael Moore, MoveOn and so many others have already come out against Hillary. Wake up!

And as far as conservative Dems and Independents go:
"Obama captured 48% of the vote in the theoretical match-up against McCain's 41%, the TIME poll reported, while Clinton and McCain would deadlock at 46% of the vote each. Put another way, McCain looks at the moment to have a narrowly better chance of beating the New York Senator than he does the relative newcomer from Illinois.

The difference, says Mark Schulman, CEO of Abt SRBI, which conducted the poll for TIME, is that "independents tilt toward McCain when he is matched up against Clinton But they tilt toward Obama when he is matched up against the Illinois Senator." Independents, added Schulman, "are a key battleground."
<http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1711123,00.html?xid=rss-nation>

And as far as her campaigning skills go, well the quality of those is self evident. Her frontal assault strategy didn't work, she didn't have a Plan B in case it didn't work, she's running low on cash, her campaign is in debt, yet somehow you think this is indicative of a campaign that can be McCain. Yeah, and then you woke up.

And please, don't be patronizing to me. I've been playing the political game for over thirty five plus years now, from the local to the national level. I've correctly called every election since '72 and have more experience and political savvy in my little finger than you have in your whole body. I tell you what, when the nomination is decided, perhaps you would care to put your money where your mouth is, you know, put up or shut up. I'm always looking for new donors

that shows her beating McBush by much of a margin, if at all. Obama's numbers have been considerably better against him.

I too will not have a problem with saying "I told you so" if Obama gets the nomination and then loses in November.

:kick: and rec

I fail to see how anyone with as low a ceiling as she has is the best hope for anything.

She certainly can win. But it will have to be one of those 49.6 to 48.9 victories where she gets every single vote that she is capable of getting.

Wonder if that has anything to do with sexism - you think??

If it is related to sexism, are you trying to prove a point or win an election?

Though I don't think it does. I just don't think people like her very much. Not that this story means anything, but my mother has voted a straight Democratic line her entire life...and just rolls her eyes when Hillary's name is mentioned.

baggage, votes, triangulating!

:rofl:

Why "Hillary Clinton is America's best hope"

Your thread title has nothing to do with what you typed.


HTH

Its clear when most of them went straight to Obama after Edwards dropped out. And her numbers in the area continue to go down. She would be a disaster as a nominee.

I was starting to think there was a virus going around that infected all the brains of democrats... sometimes my brain hurts, trying to figure out why so many other-wise intelligent people can be so blind!

I agree 100% with everything you have said.

I am 48 years old, and the first presidential election I voted in was Carter/Reagan. As an adult, I have only had two democrat presidents. It wasn't until Bill Clinton ran that I ever voted for the person that won, and he was the first and only person I voted for who won.

Some would look at that and say, hmmm time for change. We should nominate Obama. I say, I am tired of losing, and I want Hillary Clinton. I have sat up too many nights or been at hotels with the party DT waiting for the numbers to come in and only to go home and to bed ready to cry.

While a few people might find the fresh person to be inspiring, we are not electing someone to make us feel good. We are electing someone to run our country! We need to appeal to the people in the middle not the left. People in the middle will go for McCain. I have been out there talked to people and I know. The people in the middle decide elections, and Obama is not going to get people who are looking for a fiscal moderate. He is too liberal.

I am not 12 years old!

Obama is not so good a catch, but then again neither is Clinton. Both of them are media personalites. Infinitely better than Huckabee and McCain, but still not really good for the American people in the long term. I fear I will be doing 4 year Democrat Calesthenics again-holding my nose and pulling the lever.

Hillary couldn't win the general election to save her ass. Even if she did(wouldn't happen), the admin. under Hillary would be years more of the same crap. Lies, scandel, partisan hatred. We need to move on.

Any point scored against the candidate gets the "race-baiting" charge. This is an insidious foe indeed.

WAKE UP Obamas, you are being fooled by a running format:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/politics/candidates/articles/2006/09/22/race_remark_draws_campaign_barbs/?page=1

In my estimation Obama might win, Clinton can never win.

And the polls seem to agree with me. I won't say "I told you so" when Obama wins, because I'm an adult, but Hillary's negatives are WAY too high, and the GOP has been saving up for 10 years to go after her with even more. She's THEIR dream candidate, not mine.

I'm choosing "wrong" in your opinion, and I'm quite comfortable with it. I want a candidate who can WIN.

Who do you think you are to essentially be telling people who they should vote for, anyway? It's your opinion, nothing more, and your opinion, to be quite honest, doesn't seem to mesh with the facts.

They are afraid of Hillary and they have given obama a free ride and "rallied" the masses...meaning you into believing bullshit...

Wait till they take their gloves off against Obama...then we are truly getting the worst...it would be president McCain!

Except of course what I read on here. And, "I've been programmed"? Wrong on that one, too.

I chose Obama about a year ago, after reading both of his books, and learning a lot about him. I also researched Hillary. I used to think she was ok, until she started with all the Rovian tactics, and no, I wasn't programmed to say that, either, I figured it out with my own, teeny, tiny peanut brain, that all of us Obama supporters are supposed to have. I will not vote for someone who plays as dirty against their own party as they would against the repukes, and wants to try and cheat themselves into the nomination if they can't win it fair and square.

When the media "take their gloves off against Obama", I expect he will respond just as well as he has to Hillary's ridiculous attacks. I also think they'll have much less to work with. In fact, I'd bet money on it. The republicans would LOVE a Hillary win in the primary - luckily it looks more and more like they won't be getting one, and we'll be able to win the GE easily.

Who ever said that politics had to be nice or fair...

As for your term "Rovian tactics"...comes from what or where?

You "researched" HRC? What did you find? How's about I tell you what I know of her firsthand...

As my Senator, she or her staff helped me personally with problems I was having...and I live in Buffalo New York...the response I got was within 1 week and might I say...I was shocked ang grateful.

Unbeknownst to me... my brother-in-law contacted her offices in Binghamton New York, my sister (who is dying of a very rare disease) couldn't get any doctors to even see her...well Hillary's offices got her an appointment with a team of doctors at Syracuse University...unfortunately they confirm my sister's "death sentence"...

Hillary and her offices gave our family hope, despite the fact that no other elected official here in NY would give us the time of day...she does care about us! Despite the ultimate outcome, our family had hope...even for a short time that "things" could change...

Hillary Rodham Clinton is my elected official and when she becomes my president, I do not believe for one moment that she will not act as she has proven to me...as my president...answerable to me...

I believe she really does understand this...if she didn't her Senate Staff wouldn't have done anything..just like the rest of the current politicians.

Obama has won anything fair and square yet! He's gotten a free pass by the media...

The Republicans know that Hillary will win against any candidate the put up against her, so the Puppet master (MSM) had to destroy her...when Chris Matthews said "it's a movement" not even 3 weeks ago, I realized they were painting a picture that no one I know even sees here in Buffalo New York...but the MSM wants every American to think it...

Hillary will win...and I sorry if you were offended...

You and I are neighbors - probably very close neighbors. She's my senator as well, and I have seen nothing from her that impressed me, unfortunately, and a lot that didn't. My daughter lives in NYC, and her entire neighborhood (Brooklyn area), was filled with Obama signs. I would say you are the exception, and I'm very glad you were. I now understand why you, personally, are supporting her.

I've read several books about Karl Rove so I'm quite familiar with his tactics. I read a LOT.

I still disagree with you, though. The MSM didn't really destroy her - they annointed her early on, much of her destruction has been self-inflicted. Going negative really worked against her. I still believe she would do anything to win, and no matter that she did her job where your family was concerned, she has been, IMO, an average senator, who has done nothing extraordinary in her career.

The republicans would LOVE for Hillary to be the candidate - she would get-out-the-vote for them like none of their own candidates would. And, she would lose, or possibly squeak by him, where Obama would win handily.

We'll have to agree to disagree - Hillary is most likely not going to win, as hard as it is to accept for you, but the good news is - she'll still be your senator.

Obama didn't campaign in NY - it's Hillary's state - that's why we haven't seen any of what you're quoting Tweety as saying. He did do pretty well, and possibly even better than originally thought here, though.

:applause:
Brilliant opening post.

:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :lov:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: eya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :lov:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: eya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :lov:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: eya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :lov:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: eya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :lov:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: eya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :lov:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: eya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :lov:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: eya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

I appreciate your passionate support of your candidate, but the bottom line here is that she is losing, and badly. I'm not going to rant and rave at you, or even bother to refute your version of the "facts." That's how you see it. I don't, so don't rant and rave at me, either.

Bottom line is, she's losing this thing big time. It's likely to be over March 5 if she loses Texas or Ohio, and certainly if she loses both. There's a fact you may not like, but you've got to win some elections, not just curse the darkness you see enveloping your candidate now.

She can't even control Bills penis ...putting the country in her hands...No thanks.

America had its chance...a chance to have experience and true leadership in the Oval Office...But I guess that it was asking for too much.

You know...so many of us were warning others on this board that what you see happening was going to happen. We are left with the only two candidates that could have made this a horse race. One of them has such high negative numbers and would solidify the Republican base, that she is no shoe-in (by a long-shot). The other one...Geeze, what can I say? He has become a phenomenon...a phenomenon that has taken on "a life of its own." That's not necessarily good. When something like this takes on a life of its own, it is hard to know what is real and what is not. The Right is already attacking him. Let's "hope" racism doesn't rear its ugly head in the General. Let's "hope" he has the experience for the highest office in the land. Let's "hope" he is not writing checks with his mouth that his abilities can't cover.

They aren't bad people. They just simply (for their own individual reasons), are the wrong choice for the time we find ourselves in history.

This was NOT the time to make Presidential history. This was our time to get our bearings. This was the time for experience, dynamic leadership and the kind of grit that seems to be lacking in or remaining candidates. When I ask myself, who would be the first person to shit their pants or feel like a deer caught in the headlights of a train once assuming office, I think of the two who remain.

I refuse to let go of the fact that America made a BIG fucking mistake. I will never back down from the belief that we missed an opportunity to turn this ship of state around. Now, we will be spending our time fighting battles that we did not have to fight.

And here's some news for you...It matters NOT who wins the Oval Office, "change" will happen.

Finally...I remind you that the pendulum does not automatically disappear from one side and magically appear on the other. It must be turned around with practical and reality based thinking.

-P

:shrug:

Trying to get Hillary to run against isn't going to work though. Nice try...

:boring:

If she cannot beat a Democratic candidate, how can she gain enough support to beat a Republican?

How do you think this could be a real possibility, that she could possibly win against McCain but not Obama?

It's over

Great post, BooScout. I feel just like you. And you are so right about 'the right.' BO will look like Bambi caught in headlights. And do any of his fans look at who is advising him? There are some very scarey people.

Americans are stupid. "YES YOU ARE." That's my slogan for this primary....maybe naive is a better word. Stupid may be is too harsh.

What I'm scared of is that McCain is going to falter and Huckabee gains momentum. And the repugnants frame it: Muslim vs. Christian.

Don't Dems wonder WHY the MSM is pushing BO? WHY? Don't they know that 5 ugly, rich, white guys who are republicans own 80% of the Media in the US? I believe they want to run against BO because they feel they can beat him. And don't they know that Women are the only reason Dems win elections...and women now feel betrayed, shunned, and pissed at the Dems by the treatment of HRC.

I swear if Huckabee becomes prez, I will have to get out of this country....or maybe VT will secede and I can move there.

How did you get to Wales? (I know, by plane...lol).

I will always remember what Shirley Chisholm said: "Men are men."

Again, great post. Oh...and I'm always saying, "Do you think I enjoy saying, 'I told you so.'"

The only way he could win the GOP nomination now is if he wins every single primary from now on AND Mittens gives him all his delegates (maybe not even then, I haven't really done the math). I've got more chance of winning the lottery.

Thx for the numbers...

By marrying a Welshman. We lived in the States until a couple of years ago.......then moved to Wales and I love it here.

Europe many years ago...spent about 5 months there. The lifestyle has quality....Sometimes I feel I don't belong here.

Enjoy yourself!!!

I hold nothing against people who continue to support Hillary, fighting til the end. However in this post you bemoan all of the things you've "seen" during this campaign, and yes I'm sure in some discussion thread every possible attack has been made - but your post both lacks facts and continues the antagonism right off the bat. If it were left with nothing but the delusions of Hillary bringing any real change, I probably wouldn't even have to comment. Even if this long post about how Hillary will fare better in November were to somehow ignore every single head to head scenario poll showing McCain losing to Obama but beating Hillary, it could still be just delusional. But to outright lie about Obama playing the "race card", when he has made every effort to keep both race, gender, and negativity out of the race, makes your post reek of the desperation that so surely created it. You end by saying "There's only one Democrat I know who is brave enough, savvy enough and has the chutzpah to take on the GOP", yet she's had seven years as senator to prove that, and she didn't do it, specifically by both authorizing war with Iraq and even up to going along with Bush's phony labeling of the Iranian military as a "terrorist organization". You're asking "Where's the beef?" while flogging goat meat, really. Just stop and let Hillary go out on a high note.

Thank you so much, BooScout! (I loved your character in the novel, too.)

:hi: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

I only wish I saw this sooner, so that I could have given it a rec.

:applause:

my hat's off to you!
you put everything i wanted to say in writing..thank you!

http://blog.hillaryclinton.com/blog/main/2008/02/22/033102#view_comments

Hillary's Reviews Are In: 'Standing Ovation,' 'Really Scored,' 'A Stronger Performance'
by Lindsay Levin
2/21/2008 10:31:02 PM

CNN's Campbell Brown notes a 'standing ovation' in response to Hillary's closing remarks.

CNN political analyst David Gergen - Hillary's last statement 'was the most effective moment she's had on television, I believe, since the New Hampshire primary… really scored on that.'

Politico's Ben Smith - 'Clinton's answer was a stronger performance.' "Clinton's answer was a stronger performance; Obama seems like he's about ready to get out of here."

CNN's Bill Schneider - Hillary 'just made an effective argument against John McCain.' "Clinton just made an effective argument against John McCain: Though the Arizona senator is a champion against wasteful spending, Clinton pointed to his support for the Bush tax cuts and the war in Iraq - both colossal expenditures unpopular with most Democrats."

NBC News' Chuck Todd - Hillary 'had a couple of very good moments on health care and the economy.' "Did she potentially win this debate on points; I think so; it was close but she had a couple of VERY good moments on health care and the economy that probably scored well in the various focus groups of undecided voters watching this debate."

New Republic's Michael Crowley - 'The subject of health care always brings out a formidable passion and policy fluency in Hillary.' "So much of the time politicians just seem to be going through the motions when debating the issues. But the subject of health care always brings out a formidable passion and policy fluency in Hillary. People can call her a phony for all kinds of reasons but it's clear she really gets and cares about this stuff."

ABC News' Rick Klein - Hillary 'sounds calm, in charge, deliberate.'

MyDD's Todd Beeton - 'Hillary Clinton just hit that closing response out of the park.' "Hillary Clinton just hit that closing response out of the park."

Most "reviews" say they were more or less even. Which in Hillary's case is not good enough. She is a good debater, no doubt about that. She had a few excellent moments, a horrible one, and a few not too good ones. But IMHO her whole approach to the debate was inconsistent, without a clear goal and the path to achieve it. Which is a reflection of the confusion her campaign is in.

Savvy enough?! That's why she's lost the last 10 contests and Democrats Abroad!

Dems are rejecting her now, and repukes and indies will NEVER go for her. If anything, she is the GOP's GE dream because she will unite repukes in a way that McCain can only dream of!

The real question is what will he or she do afterwards. The more I hear Obama talking about "reaching out" to Republicans the more I worry. Sure, there are times to do that, but you don't base your entire political strategy on it. Has he learned nothing in the Senate? He doesn't know that Republicans in Congress will take that outstretched hand, chew it up and spit it in his face?

Hillary has faced them time and time again, in and out of office. That's what scares them about her, and why they've tried to prevent her nomination. She's their worst nightmare and they know it.

I keep seeing that and have never had any response when questioning it.

OK, one more time

A) Her primary campaign was badly managed, seriously badly managed

1) There was NO plan in place if her campaign did not have the nomination sewn up by Feb 6
2) There was serious mismanagement of her funds which has resulted in net debt despite any surge in fund raising
3) Campaign staff has been shuffled whith little discernacle impact upon the campaign
4) Campaign staff, notably Mark Penn, have been castigated even by the least critical of supporters on this board
5) Egregious insults have been made, not toward other candidates, but to voters and states (small states don't matter, latte liberals etc)

B) Despite the complete lack of evidence there remains a perception that Hillary and Bill were somehow corrupt

C) Despite the protestations of her supporters Hillary remains an unpopular figure. Huge numbers outside the Democratic Party saying they will never vote for her.

Me thinks you should probably try taking a look at his record before making those kinds of assertions. He has an extensive record, and a long history of working tirelessly in support of the values he campaigns on.

Then why is Barack Obama kicking her ass up and down the map?

Because she is running a horrid campaign for one, one which shows no sign of being capable of beating ANYONE in November.

For two, she is a naysayer, and voters don't respond to that.

Three, she voted for the Iraq War. Why? BECAUSE SHE IS A POLITICAL COWARD, that's why.

Four, Republicans and Independents don't like her, which is why she is far from the best choice to beat McCain.

Five - your candidate is losing, ours is winning. Ha ha ha.

If you really believe that HRC has the best chance against the Repubs then you're delusional. Just the fact alone that no other Dem candidate will rally the Repub base against the Dems if it were HRC is enough to shoot down any fantasy you have about HRC being the best chance.

For anyone who doesn't understand the level of disdain the Repubs have against Clinton just put it this way. If another Bush was going to be on the ballot in the GE how much more intense would your determination be to put a Dem in the White House? They (the Repubs) feel about the Clintons the same as we do about the Bushes. Get it?


I am sorry you feel that way. I am sorry because you apparently can't see beyond gender. So much so that you can't discern the difference between being critical of a person and their record from gender motivated slander.

During this campaign season I have seen no one slandering a woman based on her gender, not even from the Repub side.

And are good for the country? Answer me this and I have asked many Hillary supporters these questions in the last few months. Why have Bill and Poppy Bush been paling around these past few years? Who gave us NAFTA? (no you can't use Bill, cause I remember we got a two for one deal) Jr. spoke up for them recently if I'm not mistaken, about something or other, that the MSM put out. Why?
Because. They. are. the. same. Simple has that. Look at the last election. Our choices were two mega rich white men, who graduated from the same elite college, members of the same secret organization and wore red ties and blue suits during all the debates I watched. They ALL are the same. Obama IS different and wither he was supposed to get this far or not...Well here we are. He scares both parties. Look at who attacks him. This election will shake this two party system to its foundation. Does anybody smarter than me on here not see that? We have a chance to break the cycle of the last 25 years. Obama may end up being the worst president of all time. Then again, maybe not. If Hillary wins the nomanation, doubtful, or is given the nomination by the super delegates, good chance of that. Crazy ass Gramps is gonna be the next President. Well, except now it looks like the MSM is pushing hard on McCain. The Repubs are scared of him, too ya know. The sheep have looked up and the "good Shepards" don't know what to do. This good ol Southern boy will be proud to vote for Obama for President of the United States of America. Its time for a Real change. Not what they feed the party faithful from either "side". Obama is that change. Simple as that. Since you brought race up, roll this around in your head, think outside the box so to speak. One reason I'm voting for Obama, and maybe, just maybe, the reason for a whole lot of other white people going to Obama is to finally realize Martin Luther King's dream, That which he was really about. To judge a man by the content of his character and not the color of his skin. I like Obama, just for doing what he is doing. I've drank from others koolaid for to long. No longer. Obama can't beat the two elitist parties who keep us divided without our help. There are many of us out here, check the election results. GO BO!

Disclamier:This is not and I repeat is not, a Rovian plot to pit a young Black man, against an old mean ass White man, so us ignit, gun luvin, flag wavin, pickup drivin, rednek, worrin bout ahw wimmins white males vote white. This is the new Revolution. Hop Aboard Its just starting and you don't want to be like some of the Black "Leaders" who are now trying to catch up to the parade. You'd look silly, just like them.

Other than another cheerleading post, what is your evidence, because there are a lot of facts out there that DON'T support your opinion. Hillary has consistantly polled behind McCain while Obama looks like he would beat McCain in the GE if it were held today. Hillary was, just a few months ago, the far and away front runner. She has huge name recognition, a vast amount of money to start with and has been putting together her campaign for years. Her campaign shows many signs of being poorly managed because she assumed that no one was really going to challenge her. She was badly mistaken and now I don't think she can pull out a primary win with margins in Texas closing to almost even and her lead in Ohio shrinking as well.

The number of people who view her unfavorably has been higher than Obama's since they started taking polls of this type. She doesn't appear to draw indepedant voters in any number.

So what's your evidence, other than opinion, that she's going to be more capable of beating McCain in the GE than Obama?

:applause:



We seemed to have learned nothing about the past two elections. There is a reason that the GOP loves Obama and desperately wants him as the nominee.

I agree also. You can flame me. Perhaps this site should be renamed Obama Underground where none others need visit?

Although I disagree with your assertion that Clinton is the stronger candidate, I think you've missed a far more fundamental question: Just how the hell did this come down to a choice between the two weakest, most vulnerable Democratic candidates? Dodd, Richardson, Biden, Edwards, Kucinich - Any one of them would have been a shoo-in. But thanks to the DLC, the corporate media, the Republican noise machine and a gullible electorate we're now facing the real possibility of defeat in November. Say hello to President McCain. God help us all.

Vote for who you want because that is what I am going to do and I am voting for Obama!

:sarcasm:

I will never understand how someone getting SOO COMPLETELY ass-whipped in the primaries will magically turn it around in the GE.

No matter how they try to spin her - her campaign is a LOSING one.

She is LOSING. She will lose. And she would LOSE in November too.

(but I admit we will never know for sure.)

if the opposition was Hillary compared to Obama and then McCan't will win if Hillary is the Dem's choice. Obama could get more indenpants and Republican voters than Hillary. And if this lobbist story gets legs McCan't just might drop out.

something mean to her?

When the repugs make it clear that her plan is Universal Mandatory Purchase of Healthcare Insurance, how will she handle it? Just like today, or do you think she'll scream even louder?

PROOF

MY reply to Kathleen Parker on Hillary and Religion--

Hillary was a Lay Minister in her Methodist Church.
Hillary has always been a regular attendee at church. Unlike you know who.
Hillary loves her Bible.
Hillary has always prayed to God for Guidance. With her family.
In private as directed by Jesus not on street corners as the hypocrites.
Hillary cares for the less fortunate as Jesus.
Hillary loves Peace On Earth not Wars
Hillary is against killing via executions.
I disagree with her on Gay marriage and permissive abortions..
Her husband had it correct and shut out opponents with his--
Safe-Legal-Rare--Rape-Incest-mom's life
Opponents are "mommies killers" let mom die to save itsy bitsy sperm and egg.
They will eventually want to outlaw Masturbation--Menstrual Period--Wet Dreams.
They destroy eggs and sperm which prevents life.
Hillary loves her family. She suffered to keep her marriage intact.
She stuck by Bill's adultery due to her strong love for him as a total person not just one bad virtue amongst many good ones.
She knew her husband was 99% pure .
Hillary earned $23,000 one year as First Lady of Arkansas when her fellow lawyers made hundreds of thousands.
She spent a year and visited every school district working to improve schools.
Hillary is no Smearer.
Hillary does not Lie(intent to deceive)
Hillary respects others even when they disagree.
Hillary invited to the White House one of most evil smearers. Richard Melon Scaife.
Hillary has a brilliant mind. Not alcohol scorched one.
Hillary will hire experts in each area to manage our government. Bill did same.
One of major reason for Clinton's success was the experts he hired in the government.


The Moogumboo and Frog Manure will be unreal for the next
31 months.

The American Conservative has an article with her pic on front as a witch.

Republicans are desperate to retain power. Many will go to jail with a Democratic Congress or Justice Department.
clarence swinney-political historian-lifeaholics of america-retired cwswinney@netzero.net

be working overtime to bring Obama down. It's their allies in the press, and they'll do it any way they can. And it's starting already. Friday night 20/20 ran a story that had nothing to do with politics or Obama, but it had everything to do with race and race baiting - making the assertion that white people equate black males with crime and illustrating the point by setting up an experiment showing that while white kids were publically trashing a car in a suburban park, people walking through that parking lot were calling the police - to report two black men sleeping in a car parked nearby. When the white kids were replaced by black kids trashing the same car, the lines at the police station lit up, one woman remarking that she didn't like to see this in her "backyard."

I don't think ABC ran this story for any other reason than to remind people of the racial divide in this country and to perpetuate the view that whites are suspicious of blacks. I expect a lot more of this in the months to come.

It is she who has been making the most out of "negative attacks" against her

It is she who cannot manage a campaign

It is she who cannot control her campaign finances

It is she who hired Mark Penn

It is she who has the higher negatives with voters

It is she who has a campaign that insults States and classes of voters

It is she who could not control Bill

It is she who lost the last Health initiative

It is she who has the poor record on the IWR

It is she who has lost a + 20% lead in the nomination contests

If Hillary is truly your "Best Hope" then the Democratic Party can never hope to regain the Presidency.

Luckily for the Democratic party you have someone who:-

Has largely deflected negative attacks

Who can manage a campaign

Who has managed campaign finance so well that he has a huge war chest and little debt

Who did not hire Mark Penn or other "prima donna" staffers (not sexist in intent please see below)

Who beats McCain in current presidential match-ups

Who is inclusive towards States and voter types

Who does not have a "Bill" in his campaign (though there was a good try at pushing Michelle into that slot)

Who has put much work into healthcare but has not yet had the opportunity to implement them

Who has a better record on the IWR and cannot be tripped about "not funding the troops"

Who is being seen by Hillary supporters as the defacto nominee http://politicalwire.com/archives/2008/02/23/dispatch_from_maryland.html


I know "prima donna" is a sexist term but I cannot think of another phrase that combines the same group of meanings - big player, arrogant and selfish. If someone can find such a term I will gladly edit