Kos link removed from Kerry blogroll

Last week Kos made some intemperate comments about the four mercenaries last week, he has since removed the post and made a full apology.

Now, the Republicans pounced on this. They had already made allegations about Stephanie Herseth havin a secret site for blogger contributions and, in full sanctimony mode, have made hay with Kos's intemperate comments. Most of his congressional and senate advertisers have pulled their adds.

This is what the Kerry Campaign http://blog.johnkerry.com/blog/archives/001494.html#001494">has said...

In light of the unacceptable statement about the death of Americans made by Daily Kos, we have removed the link to this blog from our website. As John Kerry said in a statement earlier this week, "My deepest sympathies are with the families of those lost today. Americans know that all who serve in Iraq - soldier and civilian alike - do so in an effort to build a better future for Iraqis. These horrific attacks remind us of the viciousness of the enemies of Iraq's future. United in sadness, we are also united in our resolve that these enemies will not prevail."

What do people think?

in short.. And unfortunately, that's the best that can be expected.

Congress vote for PATRIOT Act? IWR? Syria Accountability Act?

Hmmmm... :eyes:

March 20 / 21, 2004

The Plot Against Syria
An Irresponsible Accountability Act
By SAUL LANDAU and FARRAH HASSEN

The United States has made a terrible error in its Middle East policy. On December 12, 2003, with little fanfare, George W. Bush signed the Syria Accountability (and Lebanese Sovereignty Restoration) Act SAA -- which empowers the president to place economic and diplomatic sanctions on Syria as punishment for its policies of "harboring terrorists," "developing weapons of mass destruction" and "occupying Lebanon." Administration officials on March 5, 2004 confirmed of an "imminent" announcement regarding what type of sanctions Bush would impose and when.

Reminiscent of the Administration's earlier campaign to invade Iraq, the charges have no factual basis. Indeed, the Bush Administration did not even present evidence to Congress about Syria's supposed accumulation of WMDs; nor did it support the allegation accusing Damascus of occupying Lebanon. The Administration did, however, commit a sin of omission by not presenting documentation about Syria's delivery to US authorities of valuable intelligence on anti-American terrorists in the post 9/11 period.

http://www.counterpunch.org/landau03202004.html

But if I call them mercenaries, my feelings change.

. . .its about Kerry. Kos can say whatever the hell he wants to but if it creates a negative situation for Kerry then the campaign has to do what it feels is necessary. Don't criticize the campaign for this. . .they are trying to win the White House.

You are right it is not about Kos it is about having a spine. Kos is a veteran and was commenting on the deaths in Falluja as a veteran.

How much money does the internet raise for Democrats? The Republicans got their wedge play and the Kerry campaign fell for it.

. . .the controversy or should they be focused on winning. All candidates have a responsibility to their supporters but their supporters have an obligation as well. Its a two way street, if an association with Kos is going to be a potential liability then Kerry and others are right to cut their ties.

that is the point. He could have said, and done, nothing, instead somebody on his team wet their pants over a Republican attack and now we have a gangf**k on our hands.

Atrios has pulled his funding links to the Kerry website ( and that link did Bush bundler levels of business ).

It's about standing up for people when they are attacked by Republican not kowtowing to Republican rage. How on earth do we exepect people to support our candidate when our candidate show himself to be incapable of standing up for the people he is wants to lead>

Sorry, but it's true. The stakes are too high. They can't hand the wingers an issue to use against them. Kos's remarks were unacceptable (he says so himself), and many of us, who feel we know a little about him as a person through his blog, can forgive the mistake, no question about that. But don't expect Kerry or any other candidate to take the risk of defending him.

When the stakes become too high for freedom of speech, then we really are in big trouble.

Kerry did NOT have to unlink Kos. He did not have to defend him. He could have just not buckled under to pressure from the right wingers.

http://michael-friedman.com/archives/000311.html

I am sorry, but there comes a time when you just have to stop buckling under.

. . .choosing to unlink from a popular blog is not a big deal.

Kos has done a lot in fundraising for the Democrats. I don't always like what he posts, and I don't always like what bloggers post there. But then I can stay away if I don't like it.

Kerry and the Democrats who were posting ads on Kos were targeted, and the Democrats gave in. They could have made an important stand on the basis of not having to like everything on a site.....but they did not.

Look at the big picture.

and really really sad. i'm even more sad to read this thread and realize how many people here don't hear the sound of the door slamming shut...

look folks, this is what is at stake. and yes, i know that Kos and the blogosphere is only "1%" of america:

-censorship. plain and simple, Kos no longer is a voice in the political world. he was for about five minutes, when he raised 0000s for kerry and got a seat the unity dinner. but now he's out, and anyone who may have been able to speak through him.
since when do we dems 'get over' censorship? even of one voice?

-access. kos just showed us, along with atrios and other big bloggers, that we can unite for the only form of capital that matters in this ugly political reality of ours. too many corporate and insider types dominate our political realm, and when we get a few of our own in the mix, it's a good thing. but now the whole of the left internet community is blackened in the eyes of the likely candidate and possible president. just when are we going to be this close again?

-money. kerry just put a pin in his own nuts, and he doesn't even know it. we're all told that we have to give, give, give! to this billionaire so he can fix our country. fine. but the one and only way people like me are going to do it is thru the internet...sorry, that's just my life. more importantly, dean and kerry have been breaking records in part because of the awareness and money raised in small donations by internet driven efforts. just when it's getting going, kerry decides to give us all the finger? don't tell me that won't cost him.

-respect. very simply: the right just got some and we just lost a lot. the right bloggers can now claim to have had an impact on the kerry campaign, and at the same time our impact has been negated. great. someone tell me how this is good in any way?

this weekend there seems to have been a concerted attack on the left internet. little things, not so little things. i'm sure i'm paranoid, and overestimating all of this. but i'm telling you, these people are not going out gracefully. and they're not stupid. the internet is changing things, things that have been in place for decades, and the power structure resists change. take these events seriously, as if you're not already a player in the party then this medium is your ONLY place to have a voice in the current discourse.

don't think this game of politics is played by everyone. only a few really impact policy, and they do it with knowledge. this is why the internet is so dangerous, and why these events should make you take notice.

Freedom of Speech is not threatened by unlinking.

but bending under the pressure of mendacious Republicans is a threat. Frequently, when the Republicans go after Democrats ( Grey Davis, Cynthia Mckinney ) or Democratic supporters ( Kos ) they go after our weekest links. They go after the causes, and the people, we are too afraid to defend. They are corrupt, not stupid.

it would have blown over.

I bet most people in America, if they knew the details of the story, would support Kos' position. I'm not a fan of his by any means, but I think his statement on this is spot on.

By caving to the static coming from the right, it makes Kerry look like someone who's more than willing to accomodate a shrill, baseless attack if it looks like he might "offend" someone.

That may be fine if you want to get more Republican votes, but it will certainly not motivate disaffected Democrats who have been against the war to vote for him.

always given to people up on the left. It's an attempt at division that works too well. For instance, during the fight for citizenship for blacks, women were told that smart politics meant picking battles wisely, and that now was not their time. The result was that black men were left without their most dedicated white backers--women--who had to concentrate on getting their own voices heard instead of being able to fight in solidarity. Both black men and women of all races were hurt by the decision to do the "politically wise" thing of the day.

Some might say this is only one blog, one incident, not a significant historical event. But it points to a major failing of the Democratic leadership. It shows why the Party loses supporters. Kerry should have said, as Clarke had about Moore, that we have freedom of speech in this country and that he was't about to tell anyone what they could and could not say, and he wasn't about to distance himself from someone just because they aren't carbon copies of him. He should have stood for freedom of speech for all. Instead, he caved into the conservative pressure to divide. Now they can pick off the other left bloggers, one by one. Everyone will eventually say something in a less than considered way. And Kerry will distance himself from all supporters, be left hanging by a thread, and who will be there for him when he was not there for anyone else?

A house divided against itself can not stand--Conservatives understand this very well, which is why they again and again manipulate moderates and liberals into division. The same point was made after World War II by Rev. Martin Niemoller in 1945:

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.

Kerry needs to be fearless rather than seek to be innocuous. Democrats as a whole do. As long as we react in fear, we will continue to lose ground.

This is just sad. KOS is a great site and has alot of Dean supporters. Supporters that Kerry needs. This knee jerk reaction is something that should not have been done.

It would have blown over in a day or two. KOS is a great site. What is the same thing happened here because of one thread? Where does it stop?

I might also add that KOS does massive support for getting Democrats into the Congress with his efforts.

I find this all sad. And I hope it isn't a reflection of what is to come.

. . .but does Kos need to be link to the Kerry blog to support Kerry. As a matter of fact as long as Kos links to Kerry (which I assume he can do) everything will be all good. No one should hold it against Kerry or any other candidate who will choose not to link to Kos.

Kerry must show people that he supports the troops and Bush 100% in the effort to bring democracy to Iraq and that he will do virtually anything to protect this country. Bush made a big mistake by going to war, but now that we are there, Kerry must support U.S. efforts, especially the troops. We hope that Kerry will have a better plan for this Iraqi dilemma brought on by a stupid war and its aftermath.

I have three questions for you:

1) What are you doing with the 48,500 raised through Kos' site.

2) Have you read Democratic Underground lately?

3) Who thought it was a good idea to continue the life of this story by having a presidential campaign weigh in on it?

Posted by: kmthurman on April 3, 2004 10:18 PM

What if JK decided to de-link DU?

After reading that friedman site, I can ascertain that if Tom DeLay has his way and steals Martin Frost's seat, Texas Democrats won't be losing much. Frost had a better chance leaving the ad. Sad.

edit to add link >>
http://blog.johnkerry.com/blog/archives/001494.html

Would you drop your support? Hell I think that we should lobby JK to de-link us, it will give us the freedom to continue to speak out without being concerned with how it will impact him. Does * link to Free Republic? ( I don't know). This is all much ado about nothing.

Hell I think that we should lobby JK to de-link us, it will give us the freedom to continue to speak out without being concerned with how it will impact him.

How many of us are censoring our speech here out of concern for how it impacts Kerry? How much good do you think that does in a world half full of freepers bent on destroying Democrats? How far are you willing to back down to satisfy freepers? Was that why Kos was de-linked? Because his blog entry had a negative impact on Kerry?

It should have been much ado about nothing. But when freepers get the results they want, it is something.

. . .its only a matter of time before the same powers that forced Kerry's hand on the Kos thing will turn their sights on the DU. Lets be proactive. Lets ask to be removed, send a message to Kerry that we will stand behind him, but we don't need to be recognized with a link. Do we want his association with us to be a distraction. We should support him because he reflects our values, is the head of our party etc. Lets put the objective of beating Bush in front of our egos.

where do you draw the line? Why don't we have Kerry remove the links to all Democratic Blog sites. Then if any one memember of any of these sites say anything that might be used by the Republicans and then associated back to Kerry, he can disassociate himself.

He can then disassociate himself with the Democratic party as well. Look, I'll vote for Kerry and I've supported him against some people.

And I can understand the reason for removing the link. But I wish he was more pro-active. He seems to react after the fact and what if something like this happens again. Does he just remove all Blog links on his site to protect himself?

What happened to "Bring it On?"

Personally, my ego has nothing to do with this. I didn't realize a link represented recognition. I thought it was a tool to help Democrats (liberals, etc.) to find each other and organize to overcome the plague destroying our nation. How silly of me. Turns out we just want to hide.

If 'my' association with Kerry is such a detriment to him, tell me again why I'm voting Democrat?

. . .outrageous comments made on the DU then yes we become a distraction, I do not know what that is so hard to comprehend, more importantly I do not know why its so hard for people to understand that John Kerry and other candidates should not be expected to embrace some of the more extreme views (some of which I embrace)that many of us on the DU or Daily Kos hold.

He is asking Kerry to delink him as well for all the things he might have said in the past or may say in the future.

Kerry has to deal with this, because it is here and now. He can not disconnect from the bloggers.

Matthew Stoller has a great comment as well, linked from Atrios. Very fair and clear statements, and Kerry would do well to read them.

http://atrios.blogspot.com/2004_04_04_atrios_archive.html#108110402749163310

But I can't--not even here....

Many of his commentors, along with many on RW blogs, think he should.

Is that a good thing? I don't think so.

As a Republican, I would like to say: Thank you for doing the right thing, John Kerry. As you obviously know, it is not "censorship" to disassociate yourself from the hateful remarks made by Daily Kos. You have my respect for what you've done.

God bless and protect our men and women in Iraq. God bless and protect a free and democratic Iraq.


The tent is getting awfully big!

The tent is getting awfully big!

How do we know that the reason the tent seems to be getting bigger is because it has a big rip right that runs all along its topside?

they forgot to pitch the damn thing at all.

There's no way there's a tent at all when you start hearing things like "McCain for VP". Sheesh, why stop there? Let's resurrect
"Colin Powell for President"! That was quite fashionable in certain Dem circles at one time- I'm sure you remember the endless threads about what a fine man he was & how he spoke so well and yada, yada, yada.

McCain who supports Bush and the criminal action in Iraq.

Are we not DEMOCRATS?

to speak about conditions in Iraq and our Armed Forces.

my neighbor, who spent 20 yrs in the military now retired, was offered a job by a private co. He almost did go, till i talked him out of it.

Someone who's working diligently to defeat Bush was telling me yesterday, that every time they try to get to like Kerry he does something stupid that pisses them off. Like rushing off after making a speech and not taking a little extra time to shake hands with those supporters that came to listen, it's not a big deal but one more little deal that adds to Kerry's unlikeability. Some might, but I'm not one that respects Kerry for pulling his advertisement.

One of the things that led to Kerry's primary wins was that he stuck around after his speeches and spoke to ANYBODY who wanted to speak to him and Kerry wouldn't leave until he had answered EVERY question that ANYONE had.

Yesterday's NY Times had an article about how great Kerry has been in talking to his supporters at campaign events

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/03/politics/campaign/03KERR.html
Kerry, on 'the Rope Line,' Seeks a Big Return on Small Talk

"The other night in San Francisco, Senator John Kerry spoke for 24 minutes to some 2,000 people who had paid $1,000 apiece to hear him. Then, as the crowd dispersed and the band packed up, he spoke for 28 minutes more with the few dozen who had made their way to the front rows.

He nodded at their whispered advice. He invited them to visit his Web site. He signed their programs and accepted their gifts, held their hands and squeezed their shoulders, stretched his ample wingspan three rows deep to touch outstretched fingers and bent his 6-foot-4 frame in half to put his face in front of a man in a wheelchair...

Mr. Kerry, the all-but-nominated Democratic presidential candidate, has been criticized throughout his career for an aloof, inaccessible style on the stump, and his stemwinders are a constant worry for supporters of his White House bid. Yet he is proving adept at the more intimate political ritual of the rope line: the inevitable postspeech meet-and-greet over a rope placed as a security measure to keep the crowd from the candidate. It is a daily dance that has become a central, even dominant element of his schedule. In fact, he sometimes spends more time in that kind of chitchat than in delivering substantive speeches..."

. . .<sarcasm>

Happened at the Harkin Steak Fry and a recent stop two weeks ago.
Perhaps this person should get his Kerry campaign interaction from the NY Times. :eyes:

and a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.

"...what really counts is not the immediate act of courage or of valor, but those who bear the struggle day in and day out--not the sunshine patriots but those who are willing to stand for a long period of time."

how?

Profiles in Courage
by John F. Kennedy

Chapter Excerpt

I

Courage and Politics

This is a book about the most admirable of human virtues--courage. "Grace under pressure," Ernest Hemingway defined it. And these are the stories of the pressures experienced by eight United States Senators and the grace with which they endured them--the risks to their careers, the unpopularity of their courses, the defamation of their characters, and sometimes, but sadly only sometimes, the vindication of their reputations and their principles.

A nation which has forgotten the quality of courage which in the past has been brought to public life is not as likely to insist upon or reward that quality in its chosen leaders today-- and in fact we have forgotten. We may remember how John Quincy Adams became President through the political schemes of Henry Clay, but we have forgotten how, as a young man, he gave up a promising Senatorial career to stand by the nation. We may remember Daniel Webster for his subservience to the National Bank throughout much of his career, but we have forgotten his sacrifice for the national good at the close of that career. We do not remember--and possibly we do not care.

"People don't give a damn," a syndicated columnist told millions of readers not so many years ago, "what the average Senator or Congressman says. The reason they don't care is that they know what you hear in Congress is 99% tripe, ignorance and demagoguery and not to be relied upon ......

http://www.harpercollins.com/catalog/excerpt_xml.asp?isbn=0060955449

how?

It was required reading in my HS English class.

how?

You don't expect that *I'm* going to make your argument for you, do you?

:+

I wish he wouldn't have pulled it. He could have distanced himself from it, but stood up for Kos' right to freedom of speech.

The same way Wes Clark did with Michael Moore's AWOL comment. (although much different context)

I think the RW is pretty smart, here. These lefty blogs are pouring alot of money into Dem. campaign coffers, especially for congressional candidates. what a better way to shut that spigot off...

Im tired of Democrats caring what Republicans think or percieve about us. All an intelligent repub has to do, is pretend to be a Dem and say outrageous things on purpose.
I also don't want a President to be the leader of morality or political correct speech. He should be above it.

"Im tired of Democrats caring what Republicans think or percieve about us."

Damn it! Coulter makes some crack about killing Liberals in front of Bush Administration members...

WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE FROM DEMOCRATS ON THE HILL?

Why don't their aids get a hold of some of the more obscene anti-social crap that Rush or O'Reilly spew and bring that up?

Kos' comments were outrageous and despicable; it would be foolish -- maybe even political suicide -- for the Kerry campaign to support him after that. Anyone here who thinks otherwise is absolutely clueless about American politics. We need more than fringe lefties to win this thing.

For Kerry in any way to associate himself with those comments could be political suicide. People who visit places like DU and blogs need to realize we are in the minority and not all Democrats including me are as extreme as some.

:kick:

No, this goes way beyond being just a Kerry thing. This is an issue of the place of bloggers in elections and politics.

He did the right thing and said that he was wrong and apologized. It's not like Kos was making a controversial point and the Kerry campaign didn't back him up. Kos screwed up and said as much.

We're not dealing with academic la-la land here. This is a national campaign, and a candidacy can get sunk on the stupidest of crap. Just ask Howard "The Scream" Dean. The Kerry people made this a non-story before the media even really picked up on it.

If anything, it should teach political bloggers that despite the informal format, they are absolutely responsible for what they say.

The Kerry campaign is now operating on the standard that they are responsible for the comments made by any blogger they link to, and in fact will allow themselves to be forced into commenting on any transgressions. They're trying to get their guy elected, and they're going to do what they think is necessary (I'll let others judge the wisdom), but it shows they're not ready to really have a blog and interact with the rest of the blog world. They should just pull down all their links.

-snip-

Third, I'm going to request the Kerry campaign take down my link. I don't want to be a part of the next "Kerry controversy of the week."

Full statement here:
http://atrios.blogspot.com/2004_04_04_atrios_archive.html#108110402749163310

Atrios totally nails the issue, IMO.

The Bushielovers are watching Kerry's every move. There cannot be any mistakes in this election! It is just too important for the good of the country!

Those people remind me of a huge lynching mob.

freaky.

I've seen several comments on Kerry's site from "democrats" who are urging Kerry to de-link from us.

http://blog.johnkerry.com/blog/archives/001494.html#001494


from someone named "kerryisgreat"
"Second: Guys like me will make sure that Kerry doesn't reconsider any association with little Moonbats like Zuringa in Berkeley. He should disassociate himself with the Democratic Underground as well. I wrote 100 emails to the media and I am ready to write another 1000 if Kerry warms up to Zuringa after 2 weeks or pays him for "consulting" services."


I've seen calls for this on other blogs as well. I'll post the links when I get back to them.
(sorry, I posted this in the discussion in the GD as well.)

"I may not agree but I respect his first amendment right to say it."

:hi: