Message to Nader:

You, Ralph Nader, are complicit in the deaths of 3000+ Americans
on 9/11; 600+ American soldiers (to date) in Iraq; tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis (aka collateral damage) since *'s war crime involving the invasion of a sovereign nation on the basis of outright LIES began.

And exactly WHY are you complicit with all this? Let me count the ways. You undermined our 2000 Democratic presidential candidate with venomous spins stating that there was NO difference between Bush* and Gore (YEAH, RIGHT! JUST LOOK AT THE LAST 3 YEARS OF HORROR UNDER * TO REFUTE). You took enough votes away from the actual winner of the 2000 election (in case you've forgotten that would be AL GORE) to enable a corrupt SCOTUS to award little emperorwannabe his pResidency. Thus began the death toll of all who have fallen under this fascist regime. Happy?

Now, my message to you is: GO TO HELL. Go straight to HELL. Do NOT pass GO. Do not collect $100. Just get thee to HELL, where you have earned a special place within its deepest bowels. Enjoy.

and all the people who vote for nader as well

Knaves and fools alike.

I voted for Nader in 2000. I live in CA. I knew Gore would win our state. I voted for Nader to send a message. I still agree with almost everything Nader has to say, though I won't be voting for him this time around.

Don't blame me for the deaths in Iraq. Thats bullshit!

and those who did the vote trade,....its more about people who knew bush would win their state and the country but went ahead and voted for nader

But was not allowed to serve as president. That is the real problem, not Nader.

Nader took enough votes away from Gore, that the * pondscum could go to their corrupt judges for a final fix.

Why don't you go after them for "deserting" the party, instead of the 3,000 votes Nader got in FL?

Or why not file suit against Katherine Harris and Jeb Bush, who knowingly and wrongfully purged 70,000 non-whites from the voter registration roles, most of whom would have voted for Gore?

And would you please stop fighting battles that Gore could have won, had he not thrown in the towel in 2001. Your remarks will not get ex-Nader voters any closer to supporting Kerry.

or Carter. There are also a lot of Yankee Repubs who vote Democratic in every POTUS elections (ie. many NH voters)

"won" the NH primary.

That how elections work. Would you stop Nader from running if you had the power to stop him?

Nader promised not to campaign much in the swing states, and yet he betrayed that promise.

I can sorta understand the 2000 thing, especially in states that were going for either * or Gore, no surprises.

I don't give a rats ass where you live. Anybody voting for Nader is sending the wrong message. The right message is that we can't take any chances. We need every vote. We have lost a lot of the state-houses. Redistricting isn't going our way. We have a generation of judges on the federal courts who could overturn Roe and do other mischief as we saw when scumbag Scalia and his henchmen decided that Florida shouldn't have a chance to correct the so-called equal protection problems.

Do you live in cotton batting?

Nader's message is right on the money.

I said I voted for Nader, not that I am going to vote for him this time. Huge difference.

The system IS fucked.

Nader offers good insight into how fucked the system is.

Badmouthing Nader is an attempt to "kill the messenger". Have you ever listened to him define the issues. He is brilliant in debate.

I haven't heard a lot of what Nader says. Obviously, there were a lot of things wrong with Gore's campaign. But it is intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer that if Nader had dropped out, Gore would have won. He won't admit this. He changes the subject.

That my friend is one of the top ten understatements of the year.

Let us start off with the fact that he didn't uphold his sworn oath to protect and defend the Constitution(so help him God). This came about because Greg Palast, shortly after the recount process began, handed Gore and his campaign the entire votescrubbing scandal. Names, dates places, with the number(at the time)of voters disenfranchised at 50,000 and climbing. What an opportunity! Win the election, banish the Bushies to the political wilderness forever, and uphold his sworn oath to boot! And yet what did Gore(on the advice of his handlers) do? He sat on the whole damn story! So much for Gore's oath.

Then there is how Gore went about the recount process. First off, instead of acting like a pit bull, he acted like a puppy, not wanting to offend anybody. Then, instead of doing the logical thing and recounting ALL of the Florida votes, Gore decided to absolute worse recount procedure and cherry pick which counties and precints he wanted recounted. Absolutely appalling mistake, and it cost him.

Also there is the matter of all of those voters that Gore pissed off with his enviromental policy in the Gulf. Early on, at the behest of his corporate masters at BP-Amaco, Gore took the pro-oil position of being in favor of offshore drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, close by the Florida coastline. This single manuever cost him the votes of 398,000 self described liberals, along with the votes of 197,000 registered Democrats. Not Dixiecrats, nor Reagan Dems, the overwhelming majority of these voters switched their party affiliation a long time ago. No, these were real live, voting Dems and liberals, who were so pissed at Gore's irreversible stance on this matter that they decided to double screw him and voted for Bush.
Kinda makes the Nader vote look puny by comparison, eh?

Sorry, while the conventional wisdom is that Nader cost Gore the election in Florida, like a lot of conventional wisdom, once you look closely at it, it falls apart, vanishing into thin air. The only single person to blame for Gore's defeat in Florida is Gore himself. If he had acted in the logical correct manner in any one of these three areas, he would be sitting in the Oval Office today. Instead, he fucked it all up, and we wind up paying. Thanks for nothing Al!

Chimp would be responsible for 600 U.S. deaths and 50,000 Iraqi deaths. Listen, Nader can eat shit, but your argument is wrong. It should be; now that Nader knows what chimpCo is capable of, he should go to hell.

My feeling is that he could CARE less, and probably didn't care in 2000. His ego is all. He'll run and f&%$ the consequences. That is one definition for pure evil.

we all knew that bush belonged to a jingoist party and family and that he would go into war...to know know that even before 9/11 is naive and stupid

I warned everyone that I could that two oilmen would spell disaster for this country. I'm no Kahuna-come-lately. I knew they would deliver us oil wars.

...that very oil war?

kinda like it's all Clintons penis Fault for the repukes to use. Everyone needs a ficticious scapegoat.

but he should have weighed the consequences of bush jr. winning.

So what do we need with a crystal ball? Democratic bigwigs begged him to drop out in certain close races. They were PREDICTING based on the best evidence that Nader could make the difference in some close races. They were correct.

but with the Bush family history.

I knew Bush would be a disaster and I don't have all the resources at hand that Nader had.

no brain or no heart or no crystal ball?

:eyes:

Either that or his reasons are far more nefarious. Maybe he's got a huge stake in Halliburton.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

It's only a UFO if its unidentified.

He failed to energize voters and show them the difference between Republicans and Democrats. Even though he should have known what Bush could do, he did not run a great campaign.

The neo-cons and their little chimp-puppet are responsible.

Regardless of the quality of his campaign, Gore won!

Blaming Gore for the deaths in Iraq is absurd.

Shame on you!

I was merely arguing while using the same logic as the original poster :P

If we can blame one candidate because he partially caused Bush to come to power, then we should also blame the other one who also failed to stop Bush too, no?

difference between * and Gore! Remember "tweedle dee and tweedle dum"? That was an obvious fabrication, designed to lure the gullible to vote Nader. Now, I can forgive his naivete or outright manipulation one time, but not twice. He's still saying the same fucking crap! :puke:

You get $200 when you pass "Go" in Monopoly, not $100.

"get thee to HELL"? :eyes:

Inflation? :D

He will not listen to no one.

you collect $200 when you pass GO.

Kerry voted FOR the damned war thus he is far more responsible for the deaths than is Nader.

Not a single shred of proof exists that Nader cost Gore anything. Did Nader cost Gore Tennessee? Did you hear or read the Nader remarks you quote out of context, Id bet the farm you did not.

My vote, your vote, everyones vote is not owned or due to anyone. It is to be earned by the candidate. Gore ran an abysmal and cowardly campaign, blame him, or blame Donna Brazile (she does indeed blame herself)for Gore' loss. But no, you seek to blame anyone or anything outside of your own party, setting yourself up for yet another disasterous election. Here's what Ralph says about lost votes:

"In 1992—I went up to New Hampshire before the primary date and spent about 10 days of intensive campaigning for a none-of-the-above option on each ballot line. I met with thousands of New Hampshirites in civic and school auditoriums in town after town saying that if they did not like any of the candidates on the ballot, they could write in my name as None Of The Above. Write-ins are made difficult by the authorities in that state. Nonetheless, of the thousands of votes I received, were Republicans and 49% were Democrats the year 2000, exit polls reported that 25% of my voters would have voted for Bush, 38% would have voted for Gore the rest would not have voted at allpoll this March in New Hampshire showed I had the support of 8% of all voters -- 10% of Independents, 9% of Republicans and 4% of Democrats.

You are being led by the nose by the right wing usurpers of a once proud party, one that I was a member of for over forty years...I intend to vote for the person who makes th emost sense, not for some ridiculous theory that electing one centrist over another will matter, that electing one wedded to a corrupt system is different from another so wedded.

an intense inner drive to not see my country go the way of Nazi Germany, or a similar facsimile. I wrote in Ralph Nader's name in 1996, and have always been an independent voter, until Selection 2000. Since that point I have begun to recognize Nader as someone with serious mental problems. He may have a narcissistic personality disorder, demanding all the attention all the time from everybody. Maybe he's also experiencing some early Alzheimer's. All I know is that he's a THREAT. If you don't see that, fine. But I expect you Nader lovers to take on the BFEE BY YOURSELVES if that bastard gets another 4 because of the Nader vote. You can COUNT ME OUT.

edited for a typo

by telling everyone else that they're a bunch of followers.

Like right out of the Karl Rove propaganda 101 textbook.

while staring into that mirror telling yourself how erudite you are?

Neither of you DLC neoconservative democrats responded at all to the Nader quote, merely snidely and sophomorically repeating the same tired mantras and untruths that cost the democrats the presidency in '00, the mid terms in '02 and , quite possibly the '04 election as well.

Even if your boy wins in '04 nothing much will change, but then, thats what you want, the same crap in a democratic wrapper.

tells me all I need to know about where you're coming from, or rather NOT coming from, politically speaking. This is the "Democratic" underground. You must have take a wrong turn.

From http://www.damnedbigdifference.org/quotes

Regarding Senators Russ Feingold (D-WI) and Paul Wellstone (D-MN), Nader said that he is willing to sacrifice them because "that's the price they're going to have to bear for letting their party go astray."
In an interview with In the Times, 10-30-2000

Nader was quoted in Mother Jones magazine as saying that "(Rush) Holt deserves to lose." July 2001, Mother Jones magazine.
Holt, however, has a 100% voting record rating from Americans for Democratic Action, and many other liberal organizations

In a recent Time magazine interview, when asked if he felt any regret about the 2000 election, Nader responded, "No, because it could have been worse. You could have had a Republican Congress with Gore and Lieberman."
-- Time Magazine, 8-05-02

Nader contended that Bush would not damage the Earth and generally remain popular, but he has pushed arctic drilling and other anti-environment policies. "If they continue to pursue a scorched-earth policy, they’ll be defeated in the next election, and the environmental rules will come out stronger as a result. There’s no way they’re going to drill in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR)."

Nader said that a Gore presidency "wouldn't have been any different in terms of military and foreign policy, soft on corporate crime. It wouldn't have been any different in ignoring the need to transfer our country to renewable energy and organic agriculture and protecting the small farmer. And it wouldn't have been any different on GATT and NAFTA and the increasing trade deficits and exporting American jobs." -- Green Party USA 1-14/02

"Let's see what really happens. Ashcroft is going to be a prisoner of bureaucracy." -- Common Dreams 4-03-2001

"Rome wasn't built in a day. It will be a process of building and in the first stage we'll effect the margins of victory between the two parties and that's a lot of leverage."
quotespage

Kerry
voted for IWR
gave bush permission to use the troops
and its not like the iraqis will all of a sudden welcome forgien occupiers and stop their resitance just because the leader is a dem
Clinton/gore
bombed iraq
killed 1.5 mill as a result of sanctions
But Kerry Clinton and Gore are saints because they are dem

That's really sad to hear. This is still America and anyone born here can run for president. I don't think I could support your idea of freedom if it dictates this kind of nonsense.

People have been blaming their shortfalls on others forever and a day.

and allow * to steal another 4, then drive our country into total living hell.

I also have a right to express my opinions about his "running for office".

responsibility. As soon as dems figure out that nobody owes them a vote, their chances of winning will improve a lot more than if nader drops out.

That's really sad to hear. This is still DU and any liberal here can post. I don't think I could support your idea of freedom if it dictates this kind of nonsense.

People have been blaming their shortfalls on others forever and a day.

I will call him a shameless hypocrite and a political vulture for investing in the companies that are bombing Iraq while fleecing antiwar idealists, but I will not say a third party challenger is wholly responsible for another administration's actions. Gore was broadsided from both the left and right, and unfairly in both instances, in my opinion. I violently dislike the distortions Nader put out about Gore, but he has a perfect right to do so, and he can't be blamed for the actions of Bush.

that evenhanded, thoughtful posts like yours are not allowed on Nader threads, right? ;-)

:)

One could argue that Nader was a factor in Gore's loss. It would be difficult if not impossible to argue that he caused Gore's loss exclusively. It WOULD be impossible to argue that his candidacy caused the Iraq War.

I have a personal problem with Nader, but that doesn't carry over to third party candidacies--while they may damage the Democratic nominee, they're part of the process, and therefore something that must be dealt with, not yelled at.

unlike Mr Botox, so there!

Kerry didn't

i tend to believe he voted for nader-just a hunch

again everything about Iraq that you blame ralph for indirectly, kerry VOTED FOR DIRECTLY

A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush*

i'm confused. who was i supposed to vote for if i wanted to cast a vote for nader?

You are confused. That must be why you wanted to vote for Nader

Nah - what use has the court jester for proof? :silly:

the over-the-top name-calling, demonization,asinine conclusions, etc

why don't you blame clinton's penis on ralph, too?

at which point, the universe will collapse on itself in a black hole of stupidity as all convoluted logic becomes one

which is what Nader and bush supporters share.

I'd say the St. Ralph is somewhat responsible for Bush getting into power.

But even St. Ralph isn't evil enough to be responsible for Mess-O-potamia.