Florida, Michigan and the Jackasses That Overreached

Hat Tip to Ybor City Stogie for this find.

Yes, I know I have very intense about this issue. I guess it is because I am still amazed at the lies being told daily, and the lack of ability of any Florida Democrat to speak up and say what really happened. It has gotten to me way down deep in my soul.

It has convinced me that propaganda played over and over truly works. It does not have to be true. It only has to be said often enough and people believe it.

Real truth can not penetrate after such propaganda has taken hold.

Florida, Michigan and the Jackasses That Overreached



I am thankful for Governor Dean's leadership on this. If Terry McAuliffe were still chair he would be wanting to change the rules by now.

Florida has acted without concern for other states. They have acted only in their best interests. Any state in which the State Senate leader would wear a button to convention that says Size DOES Matter deserves some scorn.



And any state party which allows buttons at their convention which say Screw Dean...deserves scorn as well.



A bitterness will linger about this issue. It will not be easy to forget that no matter how many people we talked to in the media, no matter how often we called the state Democratic leaders...the truth was never told.

Continue to tell the truth.

like this one.

Tampa op ed: "Arrogance Cost Florida Chance To Influence Election"

But nothing.

You of all people should know that this was a real screwup involving real estate tax problems. I only live there part time and can't vote, however I have lived there since 1960 7 years in Miami and lately in St. Pete. It's a lot more complicated then most know. That said I agree the pols. there are as screwy as anywhere in the country.

While having helped the GOP push the bill along every step of the way.

but why should the people of FL and Michigan be disenfranchised because of some hissy fits between national and state dem parties? This is like the poll taxes, so what if the states passed the law and it was known to all, it's still disenfranchizing and is abhorrent to me. Not counting votes should never be a Dem policy or pratice - period the end.

Nobody was denied the right to vote in the Michigan primary, it's just that the election was not legitimate.

It's more that the voters were cunningly bamboozled rather than disenfranchised.

He was firm, positive, and made it clear there would be no changing of the rules.

http://dnc.org/a/2008/03/dean_on_morning.php#more

Once he offered the do-over but not to pay for it...states are now wavering. Hillary wants no do-overs at all.

You know what they say about holes?

in deeper? :) Unfreakin'real..thanks for keeping us so well apprised, mad.

Find out who has done it and work to get them out. Don't be mad at me I just read about it second hand. sometimes those votes are pro-forma

I understood him to say that some committee at the convention could seat them.

He said:

"We're glad to hear that the Governors of Michigan and Florida are willing to lend their weight to help resolve this issue. As we've said all along, we strongly encourage the Michigan and Florida state parties to follow the rules, so today's public overtures are good news. The rules, which were agreed to by the full DNC including representatives from Florida and Michigan over 18 months ago, allow for two options. First, either state can choose to resubmit a plan and run a party process to select delegates to the convention; second, they can wait until this summer and appeal to the Convention Credentials Committee, which determines and resolves any outstanding questions about the seating of delegates.We look forward to receiving their proposals should they decide to submit new delegate selection plans and will review those plans at that time. The Democratic Nominee will be determined in accordance with party rules, and out of respect for the presidential campaigns and the states that did not violate party rules, we are not going to change the rules in the middle of the game.

"Through all the speculation, we should also remember the overwhelming enthusiasm and turnout that we have already seen, and respect the voters of the ten states who have yet to have their say.

"As we head towards November, our nominee must have the united support of a strong Democratic Party that's ready to fight and ready to beat John McCain. After seven years of Republican rule, I am confident that we will elect a Democratic president who will fight for America's families in the White House. Now we must hear from the voters in twelve states and territories who have yet to make their voices heard."

The credentials committee is made up of the delegates. I can not imagine they would allow breaking the rules.

The whole thing is discussed in exhausting detail at this site. The info there shows that -- for the most part -- the decision to move the primary up (which violated DNC rules) was made by the Republicans who control Florida's legislature. When the Dems tried to change it back, the Pugs attached that request to a bill requiring paper ballots -- an issue Dems couldn't vote against.

Read for yourself before offering any opinion about whether Florida's primary votes ought to count.

http://www.makeitcountflorida.com/page/content/makeitcount-faqs/

Some excerpts from the above..

Why didn’t the Florida Democratic Party follow the Rules?
Florida’s Primary date, as determined by state law, violates one part of the Rules because it comes before February 5, 2008. The DNC only allows Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina to go before February 5, but Florida law set ours for January 29. The DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee (RBC) is the only body that can grant final approval of the Delegate Selection Plan, but the Credentials Committee of the Democratic National Convention, which will be formed next year, decides who actually attends the Convention.

The DNC says that Florida could have applied to hold an early primary when it was developing the calendar, but didn’t. Why not?
In Florida, the Legislature is controlled by Republicans. Democrats must prioritize what they work on to achieve the best they can for Floridians. An early primary was never a priority for Democrats, who remain far more concerned with issues such as insurance reform, increased healthcare for children, and improving our schools.

The Rules say you had to try to stop the primary move, but Democrats voted for the law. What gives?
Initially, before a specific date had been decided upon by the Republicans, some Democrats did actively support the idea of moving earlier in the calendar year. That changed when Speaker Rubio announced he wanted to break the Rules of the Democratic and Republican National Committees. Following this announcement, DNC and Florida Democratic Party staff talked about the possibility that our primary date would move up in violation of Rule 11.A.

I do not accept it as accurate. I have talked with Thurman and others in the FDP, and they refuse to admit they failed to fight it.

What can you say to a 115 to 1 vote?

Here is the step by step of how they worked with the GOP.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1617

As opposed to the FRP side? I see Governor Crist all over the tube. Not getting a warm and fuzzy feeling here.

Thank you, I thought I remembered something like that, but wasn't sure. I am sure there is a terrible fight there about property taxes , which makes it worse, as everyone has a different opinion about it. I should pay more attention since I'll be voting there soon.

If they had fought back, they could have kept delegates.

The liars eventually give themselves away.

They have switched parties so often and so easily that there is very little differnce now.

Many of them even worked to get Jeb elected.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1475

They just don't think the national party or the people of Florida matter that much.

:sarcasm:

Democrats need to stop worshiping Iowa and New Hampshire. How many winners have they given us? :eyes:

All the candidates agreed to the terms. Tell the state parties you want a voice. If you don't like what has been done as any compromise, know where the blame lies. Or continue to say that Dean screwed the voters when they didn't have to break the rules and knew full well they were breaking the rules. Maybe you should ask them what their REAL motives were (although it could have been just their egos). Ask them what their real motives are NOW.

The time to change the system was when it was their turn to vote on these rules. They broke the rules, suffered the consequences, and had the gall to look surprised.

It would be like speeding because you think the limit is stupid, then looking surprised at the ticket.

The reason for the penalty no longer applies if they vote post Jan-29.

So...how do you solve that?

Hill must know the only real chance she has of getting FL's delegates to help her are by having a re-vote. If there is no re-vote the only way FL's 1/29 delegates will be seated is if Obama has it wrapped up before the convention. Hill won't be able to win the nomination in the credentials committee.

The DNC will not give her those delegates as is, and she knows a primary now will bring vastly different results. Obama did fairly well here before, he would do better now.

There have to be rules just for this very reason.

.

Got into a minor argument with my boss at work about this...

While I think that the primary system as is is broken, the bottom line is that both parties in the state decided to go break the rules and do what they wanted to do, damn the consequences.

Consequences have actions.

and Debbie Dingell. we are sick and tired of following New Hampshire and Iowa and having our choice of candidates eliminated by the pip sqeek states. Who are they to eliminate our choices for the later states. The end of the primary selection voters should have the same influence of the first states. Michigan has complained of the power of those puny states years ago, to no avail. So it was time to revolt. If there is a re-do , we won't bother to vote. We don't really care who wins of this plate of New Hampshire left overs. If Michigan does not go to Denver , that is ok with this set of Democrats. We did have have a full range of choice, so why bother now.

primary used to be in June. Only relatively recently (in Pres election history) has CA had an earlier primary in March until this year.

By your logic California, the most populous state, should hold the first primary. And the rest of the "small states" by population should just deal with it. Instead CA moved its primary to Feb 5 and didn't claim "exceptionalism" to jump ahead of DNC rules.

It's a bit ironic to see someone from a "small state" complain about "pip sqeek states" & assert that they had to jump out in front because their state should have a greater say than other states....including California.

and all the idiots blaming the voters of these two states can ride their Iowa and NH supremacy crap into the ocean.

That's incredibly wrong for any state or any voter, for that matter, to be disenfranchised like that. I'm kicking this and then I'm going to try to recommend if I'm not too late.

These guys need to give up on the notion that they have some special powers for determining who makes a good president. It's not like they take off their face and hands before they go to bed.

They were added to give diversity. Here is what Dean said in his interview on NPR

""Dean said frankly it would split the Democratic party if rules were broken

"He says they have tried to negotiate with the FL and MI parties for a long time and basically been told they are not interested.

He said no private overtures were made, they just started public overtures.

He says the DNC had a plan for how to run the campaigns, everyone including FL and MI voted for it.

Said the problem with FL moving forward was it was incredibly disrespectful to those who followed the rules and kept their word, it also stepped on SC which was the DNC's way of including large numbers of African Americans in the process to select the nominee"

Before the primaries I was talking with a guy from Iowa about other states going first and suggested Louisiana, to which he laughed and said "could you imagine the race fought out in the ghettos of New Orleans and Baton Rouge?"

I think that they SHOULD have gone first. That guy from Iowa is an asshole!!!

violate DNC rules. :crazy: That's exactly what happened.

:hi:

My own suggestion is that the Michigan moronic elected officials take the money out of their own pockets and pay for a redo. Our state can't afford the luxury of making bad decisions. Michigan is a poor state, but these officials aren't poor. And after they pay, let'em resign.

When the Florida Democrats got with the Florida bloggers to get them on board, when they sent out press releases, sent out emails....it was a planned blitz. Few Floridians knew what hit them.

There is a group here that just keeps saying they stole my vote, they stole my vote.

They do not have a clue what is going, nor do they care.

Trust me, there will be no winning if Hillary gets the votes this way.

Then he's no winner at all and my college children are correct when they say he's a phony and they would never vote for him - even though they'd rather die than vote for McCain.

I almost feel bad when I post anymore, but truth does not matter.

How long did it take you to make that up?

:crazy:

aren't seated in August we can pretty much bet that the next time the DNC speaks people will take them seriously. I hope.

:kick:

This is amazing to me. Howard Dean finally offers them the chance to pay for a do-over, and now they don't want it. Interesting that Hillary is dead set against any kind of do-over...even though the only way they might be seated "as is" is if her folks have control of the credentials committee in the fall.

Clinton rebuffs calls for re-running of Florida and Michigan primaries



And Debbie Wasserman Schultz takes the exact opposite view from Bill Nelson. She is another Clinton superdelegate.



It appears the only thing Hillary will accept is seating as is. That would be up to the credentials committee. Dean in an interview yesterday said that it would be breaking the rules, and he doubted the committee would do.

No revote



Her solution is to seat them as is. Ain't gonna happen.

...but that began to erode with her towing Pelosi's line about impeachment being off the table. Now this. :(



On the bright side (OT), my esteem for Rep. Wexler continues to grow. :loveya:

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/michael_tomasky/2008/03/cheaters_never_win.html

"Trying to figure out this Florida and Michigan mess? Here's a primer.

First of all, if you're looking to assign blame for this situation, it rests squarely, 110% with the political leaders of the two states. They cheated, and they thought they could get away with it.

Last summer, the Democratic party established a calendar by which the primaries and caucuses would be run. A committee on rules and bylaws, after lengthy deliberations, decided that Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina would be the four opening contests, and no one else could vote before February 5. Some people grumbled, but this is what the national party and all the state parties agreed to. These were the rules.

Then, shortly thereafter, the legislatures in Florida and Michigan decided they didn't like the rules and just weren't going to follow them. In Michigan they voted to hold their primary on January 15; in Florida, January 29. After that, the rules and bylaws committee, a 30-person assemblage, voted not to sanction the Florida and Michigan contests. The vote was not 16-14 or even 19-11. It was 29-1. Assenting was committee member Harold Ickes, now a Clinton campaign advisor. All the Democratic campaigns agreed that they would not electioneer in the two states.

Why did Florida and Michigan do this? They wanted to maximise their influence by having early contests. And - here's the real point - they were daring the DNC and chairman Howard Dean to come down on them. We're big, important dogs, the two states thought; let's just see Dean try to put a leash on us. But lo and behold, and to his eternal credit, Dean did. Some people are trying to blame Dean for all this, but one can blame him from a perspective that respects only political muscle, not principle. Dean's done the right thing.

Fade in, fade out. They held their votes. Since no one campaigned, Clinton won, partly because of name recognition and partly because of demographic advantages, especially in Florida (and because in Michigan, Barack Obama and John Edwards went so far as to remove their names from the ballot, which Clinton did not do). But she won nothing. Remember, by rule, and by the at least implicit and possibly explicit agreement of the campaigns, it was as if the elections had never taken place."

IT was being totally fed up with New Hampshire and Iowa getting first digs in perpeturity and limiting our choices for candidates we'd like to support ; instead of them telling usl: sorry , we did not like them so you don't get to vote for whom ever you choose.

toward IA NH NV and SC

its a matter of having said states taking away from us , our voting options. We are dam sick of that. too.

Why punish us because our party is stupid? Dean is acting just as stupid as the FL Dem party, getting into a "who's got the biggest ....." contest. Votes are sacred, they should not be discarded because it doesn't fit the rules of a "game". BTW, both FL and MI demographics fit Hillary much more than Obama, Hillary should be in favor of a revote. The Repugs could not have planned this better, and so many are just so happy to let them pull the strings. For shame!!

We voted for them, now it is our job to make them do what they should do.

Florida Dems have for too long let the centrist/far right Democratic leaders here lead them around by the nose.

NO more. Yes it is our fault.

It's always been that way. It will always be that way. Primaries are just the current way in which candidates are chosen to be placed on the party ballot and the entire process belongs to the parties. They get to choose their candidates and they get to set down the rules for doing so. The only say the national organization has over the consistency and appropriateness of today's delegate selection process is to establish rules that must be followed upon penalty of losing those delegates. This isn't "Pick on Florida and Michigan" time. The DNC has to approve the plan for every state to select delegates to the convention. Apparently, 48 other states managed to follow the rules without any trouble.

And, unfortunately for Florida and Michigan, the courts have always ruled that the parties have the right to determine those rules, to determine how THEIR candidates are chosen to be place on THEIR ballot. This is an internal party affair. That it happens to reflect a public election activity in some states is because that is the vehicle most people are comfortable with. It doesn't bequeath to the voter the same sacred rights as they have in a general election as this is a party function.

So, yes, you do get punished for the dicks who run your party. They are the ones who botched this. They knew from the moment they shifted the primary date what the consequences were. They picked that fight, thinking theirs was "the biggest"and they lost. Now it's no different as before; the DNC gets to decide how you choose your delegates, in this case by approving an alternate "do-over" plan, or your delegates don't get a vote at the national convention.

It's easy peasy. Simply do what the other 48 states managed to do and stop acting like spoiled toddlers.

There is nothing more shameful than that. She needs to leave the race.

that authorizes the DNC to dictate the conditions of government-funded elections, I'll no longer consider the DNC to be incompetent at getting competent Democrats elected to government offices.

Our justice system says, and has said repeatedly, that political parties have the right to choose their candidates by their own methods. In every case, in every state, whatever method you use simply provides the manner for apportioning delegates to attend the national convention where a candidate is chosen.

These aren't public elections in the same sense as the general election and do not fall under the same protections. The party has several vehicles available to choose candidates from closed caucuses to closed primary elections to open primary elections. Your ability to participate is dictated by the DNC as is your state's ability to send delegates. Every state must have their delegate selection plans approved by the DNC. In past years, all 50 states managed to get their plans approved. This year, only 48 states managed.

When Florida and Michigan submit plans and get them approved, they will be able to send delegates to the convention and have them seated as voting delegates. Until that happens, why should the other 48 states, who managed to get their shit together without any trouble, care?

I haven't seen any interviews on the Michigan primary with any of the major players: Gov. Granholm, Sen. Levin, Sen. Stabinow, Reps. Levin, Dingle, or any of the DLC players.

Why hasn't someone interviewed them and where are they hiding?

All I've seen are attempts to blame Howard Dean.

http://dnc.org/a/2008/03/dean_on_morning.php#more

Plus he will be on Sunday's ABC This Week to talk about it some more.

It is the job of the DNC to control the delegate selection and enforce the rules.

I am glad to see some major papers coming out in Dean's support now.

I swear the Clinton supporters just take turns throwing out bullshit hoping to catch one or two DUers unaware. Thank goodness we have you here! :hi:

So many people don't understand that the rules are about preventing a political machine from taking over the process - it's about keeping the selection of our candidate timely and in the hands of the people.

Thanks madfloridian for all you're doing. :hug:

Florida's political machine controls everything, who runs, who wins, who is not allowed in meetings.

And I worry that the Florida bloggers work too closely with the party until truth is blurred.

No one cares about the truth. They just all want to sound big and tough, and make even bigger jackasses out of themselves. Read this, and see why I weep for my state.

Time for Gov. Dean To Sh*t Or Get Off The Pot



This is just rambling idiocy, from someone who does not seem to know or care about the rules.

It is what goes on here in our papers and on our TV. It is why hubby and I might become independents.

Bill Nelson has taken over.

:wtf:

why not just find way to punish the state legislators that pushed for it, like pull party support, and let the voters have their friggin voice?

It is all about Nelson and Crist who want to be VPs

Over and over again.

The FDP made a conscious choice to do this, knowing full well that it would result in sanctions. They were betting that, because FL has a lot of delegates, the DNC wouldn't dare impose the automatic sanctions in place for moving primaries. It's working pretty well for the FDP...every other post from a FL voter here seems to threatening that if "we" don't seat their delegates, they'll skip voting altogether or vote for McCain. It's bullying at best, blackmail at worst.

As a nation, this election is a crucial point relative to the direction we're taking. Another republican administration will keep us deeply involved in an occupation overseas, continue the fiscal policies that are crippling our country, and further erode our civil liberties and Constitution. The FDP and MDP decided that this was a good time to throw a monkey wrench into the electoral process, because "we need them." Those sonsofbitches actually decided that this crucial election would be their perfect chance to pull a power play, and that their desire for more "play" outweighs what's best for the nation.

At the same time, it seems that there's not a lot of attention being paid to the rest of the state parties and Dems across the nation who did follow the DNC rules. Honestly, I'm not alone in feeling like FL and MI tried to shove me and my state aside and spit in my face. So, now we're faced with the problem of not wanting FL & MI voters to be left unrepresented versus allowing their state parties to get exactly what they want, whatever the cost.

THAT is why I'm pissed. I don't like being blackmailed. I agree that rank and file Dems shouldn't be punished, but I really don't know how to make that happen without allowing the state parties to win at their gambits for power.

So what do we do?

He was talking to an Obama supporter, David Wilhelm, and kept saying, "Let's put some skin in the game and get this thing going! Let's each of the campaigns pitch in $15,000!" And he kept pushing and pushing as did Wolf Blitzer to try to make a deal. Of course Wilhelm had no authority to say yes, but he DID say it sounded like it's something they might be able to do.

How is he able to guarantee having $15 million?

http://yborcitystogie.blogspot.com/2008/03/mccainclinton-2008.html

:rofl:

I would laugh, but it is too upsetting to be funny. They don't know what they want.

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2008/mar/07/30gtmahoney-joins-opponents-of-democratic-do-in/

"U.S. Rep. Tim Mahoney has joined a growing number of Florida's congressional delegation in saying there shouldn't be a revote of the state's Jan. 29 presidential preference party.

"I think the best thing is to just go forward," said Mahoney, D-Palm Beach Gardens, whose district includes the more populated regions of Martin and St. Lucie counties.

"We had a valid primary Jan. 29. The best thing for the people of Florida is to validate that election and seat those delegates and focus on what to do with Michigan."

Mahoney's comments came on the heels of U.S. Reps. Debbie Wasserman Schultz and Robert Wexler — on opposite sides of the presidential primary contest between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama — saying there's nothing to the media chatter raising the prospect of a new Democratic primary in Florida.

"Let me assure you, there might seemingly be increasing talk of a do-over. But there is not realistic talk about a do- over," said Wasserman Schultz, a Weston Democrat who is a national co-chairwoman of Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign. "A do-over is unworkable, too expensive, unfair and not logistically possible in a state our size this late in the game."

Read the rest.

:crazy:

DIRTY FLORIDA POLITICIANS

They knew they were breaking rules, they knew the people of Florida would be hurt, and they did not care.

Oh, and make the IA, NH, NV and SC

Granite State Democratic shill.

I hate it when people just say the same things over and over. No proof, just spin.

It is good to read someone who refers back to the evidence and writes kindly yet firmly.

Florida is a mess. It's leadership is nearly all DLC, and they are large and in charge...they despise Dean at the DNC. not a healthy situation.

Everything is double posting today.