Bill Nelson threatens Dean that Floridians may not support the nominee.

Dirty pool, Bill. Not very nice, and certainly not showing party loyalty. You are up against someone who is a stickler for rules, because that is how a party survives.

When Howie Dean leaves soon, maybe you can get someone more to your liking. Especially if you get that VP slot you want so badly and have been talking about.

Nelson uses "train wreck" scenario on Dean



Nelson continued setting the terms he expected Dean to follow.



Trouble with that is that TPM points out that Dean sent a clear message to Nelson.

Dean to Nelson: Pay for it yourself





More from TPM:



Bet it was really a slap in the face to Bill Nelson after all his efforts to find out that Hillary said this:

No Florida Do-over



What tangled webs....and it just keeps getting more tangled because no one will be truthful with the Florida voters.

Looks like that's what this bunch of idiots wanted a train wreck all along, and now they have Hillary as their ally.

Hillary is a leader within the DLC and Bill Nelson is a big DLCer. They have had this alliance for quite some time.

This whole thing was staged to try to oust Dean as the head of the DNC.

But Floridians think the problem is just Howard Dean, completely skipping over the fact that their own state leaders did this....and I might even say they did this as a "controversy firewall" for Hillary to ensure the DLC keeps power within the party and to discredit and demoralize the Democratic wing of the Democratic party.

Scuttling Democratic efforts is what the DLC does...their entire history is rife with it.

well. If you ask me, she is a walking train wreck.

and spearhead the fundraising?

We werent counting on Florida anyway after the mess your state made of the last two Presidential elections, but thanks anyways.

but what's gotten us to that point is the FDP's ignoring local precincts and supporting the status quo at the feeding trough, much as the DNC did nationwide when the DLC was running things. Florida needs its own Dean, who can energize the local bases in a "100 County Strategy". Do that, and Florida probably could quickly contribute to a D win column in elections.
I was talking to a couple of nice guys at Gubernatorial Candidate Bill McBride's election night party several years ago. They were both Sheriff's deputies from Charlotte County, and headed up the Dem Party there. Knowing that county (I grew up next door), I chuckled and asked them how many dems they had working with them (predicting there wasn't many). They were the only ones! They got no help from the FDP and were getting pretty frustrated and disgusted with the lack of support they were getting. Maybe things have changed since then, but I doubt it...

That might help. And maybe he will in the general. Otherwise, forget about it.

Are these the *skills* Hillary plans to use at a negotiating table with Iran? For example.
I am almost embarrassed for her.

That is a call to service!

gives them the bad prognosis and then a strong dose of anti-psychotics.

These sick fuckers broke the rules and now want to break the party. Screw 'em

http://dnc.org/a/2008/03/dean_on_morning.php#more

I think they got the message, but they will keep on anyway.

so simple.

Bill Nelsen sucks!! :thumbsdown:

:hi:

I feel for Howard Dean. I'm glad to see he is sticking to the rules and not allowing them to bully him. Go Howard Dean!

Florida will be close and if we nominate Obama we start Florida trailing. If our nominee disenfranchises the state at the convention that will likely make all the difference in November. How many Dems will stay home or not vote on the presidential line for a man who disenfranchised them earlier in the year?

That's a shame, isn't it

Whether at the convention if he has the nomination wrapped up or by fighting for a re-vote.

what will the other 48 states--that played by the rules--do? Florida's right to be heard was side-tracked by a republican governor. What makes Florida and Michigan above the rules? WE are the United States and WE all have to play by the same rules.

It was a Dem who introduced the bill moving the election up, and all but one Dem went along with the Reps, vote was 115-1. Dems would have had a case, either to a court or the DNC, if they hadn't so eagerly conspired with the reps to be big shots and jump to the front of the line.

but by signing it, he sealed it. Oh, there's lots of blame to go around that's for sure. The whole thing stinks

Florida and Michigan just wanted a say as well and it should be noted both came after Iowa and New Hampshire. How long will we keep kowtowing to two tiny states that vote for losing Democratic candidates every four years (Bill lost both in 92')?

that's something to address at another time, I'm sure. But for now, TODAY, THIS ELECTION, the rules have been decided.

B/C agreed upon rules had them going first. Thats why primary season started so early - everybody trying to be first. A better system should be applied, but not after the rules have been agreed on. Wait until the rules are revised again.

the defender of democracy and the Bush's Policies.

bloviating this rapid fire crap out with nary a thought to reality. It's old, really old.

Did I miss something because it would not be Obama's decision to make.

Msybe I am confused because Billary said that she would only accept it her way or the highway.

Please provide a link to Obama telling anybody what they better do.

It will rightfully be blamed on him because if he fought to seat them they would have been given a voice.

but that explanation is the biggest bunch of bullshit I've heard in the past, oh say, two minutes...:eyes:

Obama, Obama, Obama...Jan Brady, is that you?

Obama and his delegates are the only obstacle that stands in the way of enfranchising Florida at this point.

Is that the next ad? It certainly is Billary's public stance.
I haven't sunk to renaming her before now.

Really.Ugly. How many Democrats are going to be P-O'd max-ville if Billary gets HER way?
No one's gonna mind that? But, if I said, sure, go ahead and seat them, then it's all alright? What a lot of power!

What makes her think SHE MAKES UP THE RULES?
She can't even keep her own family jewels at home. She has no business reigning as Queen Scream over others.

Poster is just a Hill Shill repeating talking points. Doesn't have a clue as to what really happened.

Let's "hope" they are right if Obama is our nominee.

"Obama and his delegates are the only obstacle that stands in the way of enfranchising Florida at this point."

Is that right now? Because to me that just sounds like another round of bullshit.

The only scenario whereby that may happen is if it is close and Obama's delegates vote to disenfranchise in the credentials committee. If it is over before then Obama's cronies will count Florida and Michigan.

your "scenario" doesn't bode well for winning the "sharpest pencil in the box" award.

Back it up... :rofl:

Obama CANNOT WIN THE NOMINATION WITHOUT SUPERDELEGATES.

Obama thus CANNOT ALLOW FL AND MI DELEGATES TO BE SEATED.

is the one prescribed by the rules going in. It's called "consequences". Admittedly a short suit for many politicians.

I thought it was hubris of her to fly over to Florida to *accept* the *win* when it happened.
More proof of the la la land known as Hillary World.

Simple. He has to win with FL and MI being represented if he wants those states.

How hard is this to comprehend?

Look at where that got them. I hope to dog they are smarter than you assume.

This is the point of what's going on with the McCain smack around too. Hillary's point, taken, is that she would rather have a Republican elected than a Democrat other than herself. It's all Hillary or else she will go to lengths to make our nightmares come true.

...if they went to the convention. That's a fucking fact. Obama's delegates would, if FL and MI sent their delegates to the DNC (and Dean would have to allow them in), tell the delegates to GTFO.

It's epic.

I said from DAY ONE that FL and MI WILL be heard, ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

People like the OP don't want to hear it, but it's a FACT.

That is the truth. Whoever wins will leave the loser in the dust.

Something that Dean wants to avoid, which is why he suggested a revote, and why he's discussed seating the delegates. It's a nightmare scenario. You don't want the media there at the DNC watching FL and MI delegates trying to get into the convention while the party rejects them and throws them out.

The party would split in a heartbeat.

Blaming him won't fix it.

Nelson and other FL Dems did that

They fucking broke the rules and now want to act like spoiled children.

FL voters should aim their ire at their own state officials and state party. PERIOD.

No offense to my fellow DUers in FL but I am sick of FL fucking things up!

unless they count for hillary. We're just pawns in the DNC/DLC feud. Elect Obama and we can effectively neuter the DLC for the next 8 years. Elect Hill or McCain and the DLC will be back in control, and we'll be back to the '92-'04 days when Reps controlled both houses.

That's not a very good award to get.

That's not a very good award to get.

People aren't going to behave like scorned party apparatchiks in November over this. Those who care first and foremost about electing a Democrat will vote for the Democrat, and those who can't get past their first choice losing will either stay home or vote for McCain.

It is entirely possible that Nelson is the worst Democrat<sic> in Congress.

Fuck him!

Of course they'll be pissed off if they're disenfranchised.

They think Obama is so perfect that he can actually push his delegates to disenfranchise Florida and then not piss off some Democrats in Florida by doing so.

while pointing an accusing finger at possible votes to disqualify her delegates. I don't think we should let the meanest, cheating-est, rule breaker lead our country. That aside, pushing people around is a lousy way to get them to vote in your favor. Isn't it? Does Hillary have another way? Or is she into the arm breaking tactics like the Bush gang is?

But you can delude yourself that this is what it is. All it is, in fact, is counting their election, their record breaking primary election.

Or giving them another one.

They in essence elected not to elect.
I have no tolerance for adults who shirk responsibility for their own choices.

It's perfectly within the rules.

then I have no argument. I don't happen to know the convention rules. We're learning more and more about the primaries as we go.

The Democratic parties in those states need to be involved. Follow the rules and include everyone's focus.

If there is a way for Obama delegates to peacefully and with no threats, allow seating then go with that plan. Chances ARE however, that if McChillary dreams to go ramping up for a contested convention and bearing down with unseated delegates, that ploy might just backfire big time. It won't work in anyone's favor.

Just follow the rules, which were in agreement. Be dedicated to that and people cannot judge.

As part of party solidarty.

*However*, now that it's down to the wire like it is, Obama does not want to seat them! This is something that Obama supporters have been parroting for months now, especially the OP, who doesn't even want MI or FL to even have any say whatsoever in this democratic process.

It's disgusting!

I assure you that if those delegates show up at the convention (and we don't have a revote), and Dean kicks them out or Obama refuses to seat them, he will *not* have a mandate going into the nomination, and he would lose the election hands down.

Obama does not have a dog in this race. He has abided by the rules. A candidate has no choice in deciding which state's delegates are seated. The only ones playing fast and loose are the Clinton Campaign. Everyone knew at the time of that vote, that Florida and Michigan had forfeited their place in the Primary because they broke the rules. What a bunch of hooey.

what about the people who stayed home or left their answers blank or just filled in a random choice...do to being told that their votes weren't going to go to delegates. The results aren't accurate because people were not told that the vote was for delegates. You can't just assume the results are accurate because you want Hillary to win.

should have thought about that earlier, no?

We have many wonderful DU'ers from Florida, and no doubt millions of other good Democrats in the state. That said, I don't want Florida to fuck up 3 national elections in a row, and that's exactly what's on track to happen.

Tell me, MF, which of these scenarios would be acceptable to you:

-A state caucus (you'll hate this one)
-A complete do-over/revote of the primary (you won't like this either, since Obama would improve his position greatly)
-Splitting the delegates 50/50 (nope, you wouldn't be down with this either)
-Giving Hillary all of the delegates right now, no further questions asked, despite the DNC telling Florida that if they went ahead with the accelerated primary, they wouldn't be seated (do I have a winner here? is this what you want?)

I'll check back in a few after I've waded through some more whining, caterwauling, and general bellyaching from Senator Mathematically Impossible's supporters.

opposed by Iowa and New Hampshire among other states. You guys will probably be just as successful this time!

Opinion of an Elder Iowan

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Disagreeing with the primary calendar (the calendar that all of the states agreed to, btw) doesn't give you the right to shit on other people and other states.

YOUR state party screwed you over, and they're trying to blackmail the rest of the country to get their way.

Are you gonna hire people to show up at the polls to NOT allow the Democratic voters to cast a ballot?.?.?

Are you gonna make sure there won't be enough machines in Democratic precincts, same as it ever was?.?.?


Now a question for you, madfloridian.

How can I view the stats from your primary?.?.?

I went to the SOS site, but I can't find the stats.

I've heard a whole lot of people didn't even show up to vote because of this mess.

I would love to see the stats from each county, just to see how many people didn't show up to vote.

Thx:pals: And I'm truly sorry your state once again is facing such a crisis. Believe me I know how it feels, since I live in Texas.

http://doe.dos.state.fl.us/elections/resultsarchive/Index.asp?ElectionDate=1/29/2008&DATAMODE=

It doesn't appear a whole lot of people got the chance to vote, only 41.8% of voters voted in the primary.

You can view the stats by using the pulldown menu in the left column, statewide/district.

Just so you know. :hi:

All these old guards do, is continue to hide the secret of Florida's networks, protect the old money, and pass on their mistakes to the public to pay for them.

I really don't know how it is, that it's possible, that they can bump into the victims of their own ineptitude in high school, churches or even the grocery store, and keep a straight face. I just don't get it.

He's just another DLCer fighting for a spot at the feed trough of corporate $.

All you do is spin and all of it is fiction. Just once I wish you would publish facts instead of letting your imagination ramble on like you do. You cherry-pick which parts you like and dismiss the parts you don't like.

Bill make perfect sense because now there is no solution to this problem and millions of voters are going to be disenfranchised. Dean won't compromise and he won't split the cost of a re-do so where does that leave the voters?

Maybe you care more about "rules" than you do people but I happen to believe in the Constitution.

This wasn't the fault of the Florida voters, mf, and it wasn't even the Fla state Dems fault that the REPUBLICAN LEGISLATURE and the REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR moved up the primary. The Democrats had nothing to say about it.

I don't know why I'm wasting my breath responding to your nonsense. You have this ridiculous theory that Hillary is somehow behind this, and she ISN'T.

What's wrong with a re-vote? It would be fair and whatever happens, happens. Hillary couldn't be accused of stealing the election and the winner would be considered legitimate.

It would be the fair thing to do.

Better check with your candidate about that.

Hillary is already on record as VETOing a do over caucus (as if she had that power).

There isn't enough money in the DNC to pay for do over of the primary... the DNC is nearly broke ($3M in the bank).

Crist has not said that Florida will pay for a do over primary, even if it could be legal. The cost is something like $25M.

A "firehouse caucus" is possible and the cost can be paid by anyone, likely to be under $4M.

But Hillary vetoed that idea, which means that Bill Nelson and Crist will be against it as well.

FL had a legitimate primary. If the DNC doesn't want to see it as legitimate (putting campaigning over people going to polls and voting), then the DNC will have to find a primary based solution.

Otherwise MI and FL will be at the convention, and the democratic party is going to be fucked.

You can blame Hillary all you want, you can say she's a shrill evil bitch, but the fact remains that more than a million people voted in those states and they will have their will heard.

Florida and Michigan forfeited their role in the Primary when they broke the rules. That is a fact. Everything else is nonsense. Hillary is not the one to decide which state's delegates are seated. If Michigan can find a way to compromise, their delegates will be seated. What is it about Florida that is different from Michigan? Why aren't you pissing and moaning about Michigan? Why aren't you talking about their votes?

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/campaign-2008/2008/03/06/exclusive-interview-clinton-looks-ahead-to-mississippi.html

'On a "do-over" in Florida and Michigan, which held nominating contests that
broke Democratic Party rules

I would not accept a caucus. I think that would be a great disservice to the
2 million people who turned out and voted. I think that they want their
votes counted. And you know a lot of people would be disenfranchised because
of the timing and whatever the particular rules were. This is really going
to be a serious challenge for the Democratic Party because the voters in
Michigan and Florida are the ones being hurt, and certainly with respect to
Florida the Democrats were dragged into doing what they did by a Republican
governor and a Republican Legislature. They didn't have any choice
whatsoever. And I don't think that there should be any do-over or any kind
of a second run in Florida. I think Florida should be seated.'

Bill Nelson was on Anderson Cooper tonight saying it was all the rethugs fault. He said he tried last summer to move the primary back to Feb 5th, but the rethugs that control the FLA legislator would not let him. Now he says the rethugs are laughing at the mess they made because it is only affecting Dems - not pukes.

So Mad, were there also complicit Dems in the FLA decision (at the state level) or were they victimized by the rethugs? Bill was playing up quite the victim role tonight.

and it passed 115-1 - one sole Dem voting against. Fl dems maybe couldn't have blocked passage, but had they voted against the DNC said they would have taken that into account. FL Dems were completely complicent, they were not victums. Biggest cheerleader of all was Bill Nelson, liar and fraud.

From instigator to victim. It was a Dem who introduced the early primary bill in Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1829

How it began last August....how Florida Democrats began their propaganda war
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1819

Those are only two of my posts about it. It is useless though because the media is a huge propaganda machine.

:hi:

Unfortunately.

chance that Dems will carry Florida. He was a major player in helping * steal it in 2000. He even said that he didn't care what the recounts showed. It was going for bush regardless. So everybody should stop worrying about hurting Florida's feelings.

Kurt Browning is SoS, IIRC.

into their voting booth and forcing them to vote for McCain..

Billy's getting that hold-your-breath & turn-blue desperate look about him,..


Is HRC THAT desperate?? that's scary to the unhingedth degree.. Is that presidential?? Starting to look like the Iraqi congress to me :evilgrin:

BLUE, when? 2000 (they let it be stolen by Jeb Bush), 2004? Nope, went for George W. Bush.

So Florida's voters WILL NOT SUPPORT the Dem candidate in 2008 either? REALLY?

under the best of circumstances. Bill Nelson should be ashamed of himself having such a hissy fit. A redo is fine, but it might be nice to look at the voting machine situation so we might avoid another Christine Jennings. The way things are now, it doesn't matter if it's Obama or Clinton because McCain is going to win . . . guaranteed.

We were verifiying the caucus rolls last night & I found a bunch of people who, according to the official record that I received & was told I could not write on or change in any way, shape, or form, did not vote. One of these names surprised me. So, I brought it up to the other folks (all Clintonistas) & they all said, to a man, "Just go ahead & mark her as voted. We all know she did." :wow:

I said, uh-uh, no way. I started asking if we were going to get the final rolls from the elections office. "That's too expensive." Well, why should someone be taken off the caucus lists because someone else made a clerical error? That doesn't seem fair. "Oh, just mark her off, I know she voted."

I held my ground, & the person showed up & very snottily threw the voting card in front of me. "There, do you believe us now?"

Hey, asshole, I was just FOLLOWING THE DAMN RULES. You have to look at the voter registration card if there is a question. You don't call the voter & ask if they voted. YOU LOOK AT THE CARD.

They should be glad I caught this error NOW because if it had gone up to the state level, thie person would not have been seated.

BTW, these very same people were only "verifying" the names of those who listed "Obama" on the caucus lists.

dg

they can gain more momentum in the coming states this way by using it as an issue.

She will milk it.

OK. Now we know all we need to know about him.

If so, revoke his status.

.

Getty Images Sen. Bill Nelson, Florida's senior senator, told the national Democratic Party to think of the general-election fallout if his state's delegates are not seated.

DNC told to pay for 2nd Florida vote



Dean's response: No.

http://www.mlive.com/elections/index.ssf/2008/03/florida_senator_recommends_vot.html



Getty Images Sen. Bill Nelson, Florida's senior senator, told the national Democratic Party to think of the general-election fallout if his state's delegates are not seated.

"TALLAHASSEE, Fla. — Sen. Bill Nelson believes that the only practical way to settle the state's delegate mess is to hold a second Democratic presidential primary by mail, his chief of staff said Saturday.

..."On Thursday, Nelson, who supports New York Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, called for a new primary, though he didn't suggest how it should be held.

Nelson met with his staff Saturday to discuss logistics. The effort to try to seat the state's delegates at the August convention has become more critical as the race between Clinton and Illinois Sen. Barack Obama has hit a deadlock.

"Nothing is going to work unless the campaigns mutually agree," Mitchell said, adding Nelson has "tried everything -- a lawsuit, he's pleaded and cajoled and we're still stuck."

(Oh wait, they are surprised Obama is not jumping up and down eager? Then sue him, too, why don't you, Bill)

tens of thousands of absentee by mail ballots never made it to the Florida voters who requested them
in Nov 2004.

Florida will go to McCain. It's demographics favor him a lot. He would crush Clinton. Obama/Graham could possibly pull it off, but we shouldn't count on Florida in our electoral calculations, no matter who our candidate is.

Howard (the Screamer) Dean should have resolved this problem BEFORE the primaries began. As Dean likes to say "you can't change the rules in the middle of the game". If the delegates are not seated, there is a very real possibility that the voters of MI and FL will stay home in the GE. If FL and MI give the election to McCain, Howard Dean is the man to thank.

The MSM wins.

I'm shocked.

well before the primary season began. It was a mistake to have ignored the effect it would have at this time: Dean assumed the point would be moot by this stage in the game. Dean took the chance, at the expense of the voters of Michigan and Florida, and he lost. By punishing the Democratic parties of both states, Dean has summarily punished the voters of those states. Howard Dean needs to be removed from his job. He failed the party and the voters.

They are already suing Dean. Florida loves to sue Dean. Go for it.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Moron is a personal attack.

They are just for getting Hillary elected.

That is almost exactly what all her supporters are saying and what she said.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/campaign-2008/2008/03/06/exclusive-interview-clinton-looks-ahead-to-mississippi.html

'On a "do-over" in Florida and Michigan, which held nominating contests that
broke Democratic Party rules

I would not accept a caucus. I think that would be a great disservice to the
2 million people who turned out and voted. I think that they want their
votes counted. And you know a lot of people would be disenfranchised because
of the timing and whatever the particular rules were. This is really going
to be a serious challenge for the Democratic Party because the voters in
Michigan and Florida are the ones being hurt, and certainly with respect to
Florida the Democrats were dragged into doing what they did by a Republican
governor and a Republican Legislature. They didn't have any choice
whatsoever. And I don't think that there should be any do-over or any kind
of a second run in Florida. I think Florida should be seated.'

"we are not going to change the rules in the middle of the game". I hope someone files an injunction if any re~vote is attempted.

long before the voting took place in their states that they had forfeited their place in the Primary because they broke the rules. Fact.

Florida and Michigan broke the rules by moving their primary up. So punish the voters. But, don't expect those states to vote for a Democrat (Obama or Clinton) in the GE. Once you disenfranchise voters you can't just get them back that easily. Howard Dean should have resolved the issue BEFORE the primaries began. There should be NO re~vote. Both states already voted.

No one 'wants' to disenfranchise the voters, and it looks like Michigan will probably work something out with the DNC without all the hyperbole. Florida is bombastic, but the only representatives talking about all this is the Clinton Campaign, who have nothing to do with it. What's up with that?

and so good and so pious. I can not even look at your avatar with feeling sad over what she has become.

I can not watch her on TV either.

He has already been sued twice...both dismissed. But the same activist that says he will file an injunction to stop a new primary has a appellate court hearing on March 17.

He thinks it will decide who the president is.

Now, that we have gotten those insults out of the way...let's see how this situation develops. Hillary Clinton is not the one to blame in ANY of this, so attempting to lay blame at her doorstep only weakens your position. I thought we were having a discussion about disenfranchised voters?

I have never seen this side of her. She is not what I expected.

Obama is and has been leading. She is unable to accept it.

Must be nice to feel so confident that Obama will win the GE that the DNC is willing to concede FL and MI to the Republicans.

The great Dean deceit is that he knows Florida Democrats didn't break the rules.

Charlie Crist, the Republican Governor of Florida, and the Republican Legislature of Florida effectively told Dean that Republicans were not bound by the rules of the Democratic Party so the Republicans changed the primary date over the protest of Florida Democrats.

Dean then punished the Democrats for what Republicans did.

The Florida Democrats then rose up AGAINST DEAN by putting all the candidates names on the ballot and marched to the polls in record numbers.

Dean then disenfranchised voters in his own Party in order to -- what? Teach Republicans a lesson????

Florida Democrats did not break any rules.

"If FL and MI give the election to McCain, Howard Dean is the man to thank."

Project and blame!

SurveyUSA has Obama losing Florida... and still beating McCain with 4 more electoral votes than Clinton would get.

http://www.surveyusa.com/index.php/2008/03/06/electoral-math-as-of-030608-obama-280-mccain-258/

BTW, we can win without Florida so his threats are meaningless.

hoping for a Clinton drop out before the convention. Proactive he isn't.
The state Dem parties will be on their own. Michigan perhaps justifiably so, Florida through no fault of their own.

Seems DNC Is Pushing for Clinton to drop out. Reference Brazile's frequent media attacks on Hillary and her statement.

. . . "If these attacks are contrasts based on policy differences, there is no need to stop the race or halt the debate," Brazile said. "But, if this is more division, more diversion from the issues and more of the same politics of personal destruction, chairman Dean and other should be on standby."

Seems like she's threatening the party.

I think she suffers from overblown grandiosity.

Whether Hillary or Obama is the nominee.

I'm getting a little bit tired of these states who broke the rules bitching and screaming about being treated unfairly. And yes, I'm also talking about my home state of Michigan and Carl Levin, my favorite Senator.

.

What a jerk.