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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:33 AM
Original message
"Look, I've lived overseas," said Obama.
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 10:46 AM by bigtree



In response to the question of Barack Obama's experience in foreign and military affairs, we now have five points which HE has offered in rebuttal to Hillary Clinton . . .

1) He's lived overseas.

2) He has family overseas.

3) He has served on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee

4) He made a speech in 2002 opposing the Iraq resolution and Bush's plan to invade.

5) He doesn't get rattled.


article: http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Vote2008/Story?id=4374621&page=3

Obama: 'How Do You Know Any President Is Ready?'

"Look, I've lived overseas," said Obama. "I have family overseas. I have served on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee."

As for Clinton's experience in the White House, Obama is dubious. "It is true that I've not lived in the White House," he said. "Although, one of the tough things about Sen. Clinton's campaign has been the degree to which she takes credit for good things that happened and doesn't take credit for bad things that happened."

I Don't Get Rattled'

Obama believes that his "matter of temperament" best prepares him for the White House.

"One of the things that I've known about myself for a long time," he said, "is that, in difficult or stressful moments, I don't get rattled And I don't get rattled during campaigns. I don't get rattled when things are up ... and I don't get too low when things are down."

____________________________


I'll just give my overview of the points Hillary Clinton has stressed as she presents her own record of experience in military and foreign affairs (since I know it will be challenged . . .


Hillary Clinton is the first New York senator to sit on the Armed Services Committee, where she has focused on improving pay and benefits for troops, both active and reserve. New York has the fourth-largest number of servicemen and women deployed in Iraq. Clinton visited Iraq in February in a much-publicized trip with Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz.

• She introduced legislation last month to boost the Army by 80,000 soldiers over the next four years.

• She has co-sponsored bills to improve military health benefits with GOP Sens. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina and Jim Talent of Missouri. "I think that generally her work on the (Armed Services) committee has been very strong," Talent says.

• She was nominated by the Pentagon — with which her husband often had contentious relations, particularly on gays in the military — to serve on a blue-ribbon panel studying how to foster better cooperation among the military services.

Adm. Edmund Giambastiani, commander of U.S. Joint Forces Command, named Clinton to the "Transformation Advisory Group." Clinton returned the favor last month by introducing him at the Armed Services hearing on his nomination to be vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Clinton says a combination of factors prompted her to make national security a key focus in the Senate: a long-standing interest in military and foreign policy issues, the fact that New York City was attacked on Sept. 11.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-07-18-hillary-cover_x.htm


As first lady, Hillary Rodham Clinton . . .

. . . jaw-boned the authoritarian president of Uzbekistan to leave his car and shake hands with people. She argued with the Czech prime minister about democracy. She cajoled Roman Catholic and Protestant women to talk to one another in Northern Ireland. She traveled to 79 countries in total, little of it leisure; one meeting with mutilated Rwandan refugees so unsettled her that she threw up afterward . . .


Her role mostly involved what diplomats call “soft power” — converting cold war foes into friends, supporting nonprofit work and good-will endeavors, and pressing her agenda on women’s rights, human trafficking and the expanded use of microcredits, tiny loans to help individuals in poor countries start small businesses.

Asked to name three major foreign policy decisions where she played a decisive role as first lady, Mrs. Clinton responded in generalities more than specifics, describing her strategic roles on trips to Bosnia, Kosovo, Northern Ireland, India, Africa and Latin America.

Asked to cite a significant foreign policy object lesson from the 1990s, Mrs. Clinton also replied with broad observations. “There are a lot of them,” she said. “The whole unfortunate experience we’ve had with the Bush administration, where they haven’t done what we’ve needed to do to reach out to the rest of the world, reinforces my experience in the 1990s that public diplomacy, showing respect and understanding of people’s different perspectives — it’s more likely to at least create the conditions where we can exercise our values and pursue our interests.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/26/us/politics/26clinton.html?_r=1&adxnnlx=1203090233-ocLkicuTLhKkTB7gZB%20R/g&pagewanted=all


These two media accounts reflect what's been described by Sen. Clinton and her supporters. Not a major role in foreign policy as First Lady, but not the lack of significant experience her critics claim either. Certainly more foreign policy experience than Obama can credibly claim.

Couple that behind-the-scenes-of-the-Clinton-presidency experience with her present seat on the Senate Armed Services Committee, and her term as Senator and you have a pretty healthy resume. (Not to mention those contacts she made overseas during that period and beyond)


Oh, and this . . . a telephone call:

Listen to it. It is a series of powerful testimonials from eighteen former admirals, generals, and senior defense officials who support Hillary. They are among nearly 30 general and flag officers who have endorsed Hillary. (link: http://static.hillaryclinton.com/files/audio/20080302_call.mp3


selected excerpts: (http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=6298)

3/2/2008
TESTIMONIALS: Former Admirals, Generals and Senior Defense Officials on Why They Support Hillary Clinton to be the Next Commander-in-Chief

General Wesley Clark
Click here for audio
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/files/audio/press/200803025016.mp3

Brigadier General John Watkins, Jr.
Click here for audio
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/files/audio/press/200803025604.mp3

Major General Paul Eaton
Click here for audio
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/files/audio/press/200803020410.mp3

Lieutenant General Claudia Kennedy
Click here for audio
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/files/audio/press/200803025454.mp3

Lieutenant General Frederick Vollrath
Click here for audio
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/files/audio/press/200803025544.mp3

Admiral William Owens
Click here for audio
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/files/audio/press/200803025514.mp3


General Wesley Clark

“She has done her homework on national security and I know from my personal discussions with her and with many other friends that go in and brief her in her role in the Senate Armed Services Committee. She knows the facts, she knows the details, plus she has the big picture. She is a strategic thinker but she has the building blocks of the strategy in her personal knowledge. This is someone that when she is president our military is going to respect very highly, and when our Senior Officers brief her and meet with her they are going be very, very impressed by what she knows and the intelligence that she brings to these problems.”


Brigadier General John Watkins, Jr.

“As I think about the challenges facing the nation and having been in uniform for almost thirty years, worked with a number of presidents to include the last four, I can’t think of a single person – those generals included – who is better qualified to walk into the Oval Office than Hillary Clinton. I don’t make that statement very lightly. She is more qualified, in my view, than her husband Bill was when he entered the office. It is no surprise to me that you would have as many flag officers who serve this country and Secretaries of the Army and Navy who have served this country who would come out and support Hillary.”


Major General Paul Eaton

“On a personal note, I have a Special Forces Captain son and a Sergeant Paratrooper both in Afghanistan and I find Senator Clinton the perfect choice to be their Commander-in-Chief and to display the loyalty to command our armed forces and to rebuild them after the conflicts in which we are engaged right now.”


Lieutenant General Claudia Kennedy

“I support her because I trust her. I trust Hillary Clinton because of her judgment and her leadership. I have confidence that she is responsive to the needs of people. I believe that she understands leadership the way we do in the Army and that is that it’s about building connections and relationships and establishing guidance and leadership for others.

I think she’ll rebuild relationships with other countries that have been suffering for the last seven or eight years; those relationships have really been strained beyond anything I would have anticipated. Another part of Hillary Clinton that I think is just tremendous is that she knows our reality. She is in touch with people, she listens to people. She decides what she believes about policy based on what’s right, she has integrity, and on what works, so she’s practical.”


Lieutenant General Frederick Vollrath

“I support Senator Clinton because I believe it’s time for change in our country, a new direction. And I know change carries with it risks. Senator Clinton is the candidate, in my opinion, with the proven experience that truly understands the risks and how to possibly cope with those risks to get the job done. We shouldn’t shirk from change because of the risks, but we absolutely have to have a leader with the proven experience. America, in the area of national defense, must be successful and Senator Clinton has that experience to create change, to understand the risk, and to get the job done.”


Admiral William Owens

“In this world that we face today, very complex as all of us know, I think experience will be really at a premium, especially at the level of the Commander-in-Chief. There’s not time to learn. The phone rings and you have to be ready. You have to ready with intuition, with experience and with skills. And this world will have the complexities that perhaps we’ve never before seen. I’ve been impressed with and admire Hillary Clinton for her work in the Senate. And we need people with great judgment. I think she brings the best of talent, intuition and experience to handle these unknown threats in the future.”


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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
1. Look, I married Bill and stayed with him no matter what
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 10:35 AM by dmordue
I deserve to be president
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. you and Bill should be happy together
congrats
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
65. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
85. And I'm a fighter! I'm your gal!
Yes I can! I deserve the presidency!
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
30. She kept her family together during a time of stress. It is none of your business.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #30
41. "She kept her family together" for political gain.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #41
51. SHAME ON YOU-- questioning her motives for YOUR political slime points!
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #51
68. rodeodance: "I post for faux outrage"
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #68
72. another demeaning response form you. typical.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #72
82. Pot. Meet. Kettle.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. too late for you to edit your divisive posts. They will go down in Hx with your name to them. bye
She kept her family together during a time of stress. It is none of your business. rodeodance Mar-09-08 10:07 AM #30
"She kept her family together" for political gain. berni_mccoy Mar-09-08 10:11 AM #41
SHAME ON YOU-- questioning her motives for YOUR political slime points! rodeodance Mar-09-08 10:20 AM #51
rodeodance: "I post for faux outrage" berni_mccoy Mar-09-08 10:43 AM #68
another demeaning response form you. typical. rodeodance Mar-09-08 10:47 AM #72
Pot. Meet. Kettle.
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Raejeanowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #41
127. That Is Just Abysmal
You have no idea what the woman's motives were or were not, but you are totally determined to paint them in the ugliest light possible.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #41
132. Well I don't post "for political gain", because I support neither
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 05:04 PM by Dhalgren
Clinton nor Obama. And let me tell you, your statement was a low-blow. You do not have any way of knowing what nor why Clinton did anything in her personal life. You should apologize...
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TAWS Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
2. Hillary's only national security experience is getting endorsements from generals
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. don't like to read much, huh?
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TAWS Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. If I read it, it must make it true right?
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 10:48 AM by TAWS
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:53 AM
Original message
your summation is lacking
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
71. Reread the post. It is clear Obama is a political neophyte
with little substance. The 'summation' is lacking? What is it lacking? Obama needs to pump up his credentials somehow?
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movonne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
17. I have lost a lot of respect for many generals...so I basically don't
give a rats ass what they have to say...in todays world they are told what to say not what is right...
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
35. you forget--These generals trust her judgment.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #35
149. and they publicly opposed Bush's Iraq nonsense
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 06:12 PM by bigtree
:hi:
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Medusa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
157. Including One General (Clark) who thinks he's going to get
either a VP nod or Defense Secretary if Hillary is nominated. Oh yeah, personal motivation has nothing to do whatsoever in his support for the Hill. :eyes:
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
5. Let's get real here:
Neither of them has extensive foreign relations experience. All the phony-sounding resume-puffing in the world won't change that fact. Both have been on some committees during their short Senate careers and that's about it. If we were serious about wanting a nominee with solid experience in that area, Joe Biden would be the front-runner; but no, we got stuck with the media-chosen celebrity nominees.

So considering the reality that neither of those two has any serious credentials in foreign affairs, we can only hope the eventual winner chooses as a running mate somebody who does. And keep in mind, as well, that experience isn't everything. Dick Cheney has a spectacular resume. Abe Lincoln was a one-term Congressman.

And Obama was at least smart enough to know Bush was full of shit and so opposed the Iraq invasion. Hillary swallowed.

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. K&R...It's an interesting read. Maybe an Obama supporter will lay
our his experience in detail and folks who haven't made up their minds yet can compare the two. :shrug:
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. My point is that neither of them has much experience.
The real issue is whether and to what extent that is important. Bill Clinton had absolutely no experience in foreign policy at all when he was elected. George Bush I had a lot. So what's the point of comparing bullet points on their resumes when it's evident that the thickness of somebody's CV doesn't determine their competence as president?
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #7
73. I have yet to see any Obama supporter lay out viable reasons
for supporting the guy. He is full of hope and wants change, but then all of us want that, don't we. Afraid he will be a Tom Sawyer, dependent on someone else to do the planning, much like the present tool in the White House.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
143. Hillary did that for us Experience = HC and her twin McPain
Birds of a feather flock together.

I don't value "experience" when it does not represent growth as a decent human being.


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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. I believe that both Sen. Clinton's interest and actions outmatch Sen. Obama's, by far.
. . . where the issues of military and foreign affairs are concerned. I don't think they're even close in that regard. That matters to me.
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. "I believe" isn't a fact.
And Hillary voted for the IRW. *I* believe that's a big strike against her. If she's so good at foreign policy, why couldn't she imagine what a disaster that would be? Other senators did. Obama did.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. I've provided some evidence. You've provided nothing
. . . except for a speech Obama gave in 2002.
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. I don't have to "prove" anything because my point is that
NEITHER Obama NOR Clinton has significant foreign policy experience. My question is whether and to what extent that is important in light of the fact that some very experienced people like Rumsfeld and Cheney have made a complete dog's breakfast of our foreign relations. Hillary makes a big deal of her so-called experience, which is just as thin as Obama's, but she doesn't mention that her husband had exactly none when he was elected.

And Hillary voted for the IRW. That's a fact. No amount of spin can change that blunder.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #28
44. right. Your argument as to the superiority of Obama to Clinton is, simply, he gave a speech in 2002.
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #44
123. NO. I'm not arguing that at all. You are entirely missing my point
which is that NEITHER OF THEM has any significant foreign policy experience. Capisce?

So it's absurd for Hillary to suggest she's all that on foreign policy, because she isn't. Both of them are rookies in that area, but only Obama has the common sense to recognize that judgment can sometimes be more important than actual experience. McCain will have Hillary's guts for garters if she's the nominee and she tries to claim she has experience. Because even though he's an S.O.B., he has a whole lot more than she does. I haven't seen any evidence that she has such spectacular judgment, either. Exhibit A: the IWR. She voted for it.

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #123
129. Yet, it remains that Hillary Clinton's experience is far more extensive than Obama's
. . . even if you distill Hillary Clinton's experience down to your most belittling interpretation.
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #129
131. Sigh. I give up. You miss the point, again.
I don't care if Hillary has a committee or two that Obama hasn't got. The point is that both of them have very thin foreign policy resumes, and neither ought to be bragging about their experience. Hillary will get stomped hard by McCain if she goes there, and she's just setting herself up for that possibility.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #131
136. I'm just not buying your interpretation of her experience. Your dismissals don't square with reality
. . . in my view.
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #136
138. Whatever. She can duke it out with McCain.
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 05:14 PM by ocelot
But the results won't be pretty.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #28
45. We have to choose between HRC and BO. I believe HRC has better judgment related
to foreign policy decisions.
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #45
121. Like voting for the IWR?
:rofl:
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #121
133. BO has FUNDED the war & has voted agains Kennedy and Feingold to withdraw troops
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #133
135. Which doesn't change the fact that Hillary voted for the IWR
and refuses to apologize for it.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #135
147. Here is fact for you: SHE DID NOT VOTE TO GOT TO WAR. --digest it!!
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #13
74. It certainly should matter to any thinking voter in this modern
age when globilization is a reality and foreign policy and experience is more important than ever before.
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #5
32. If we wanted to elect someone with solid foreign policy experience, it would be Madeline Albright.
But since she's not running, nor could she be elected President anyway, it's a moot point.

You're right. Neither Hillary or Obama has what you would call a dazzling resume on foreign policy.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #32
159. I disagree. Hillary trumps Obama on foreign experience.
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
6. Hillary thinks she can be president because she's married to one.
Aside from her experience in the Senate, what foreign policy experience does she have?

Attending a bunch of state dinners, maybe. But I don't see much in the way of her participating in negotiations & such. She didn't have security clearance, thus didn't get in on Bill Clinton's foreign policy and national security meetings.
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #6
34. She's married to an ex-president who had no foreign policy experience at all
at the time he was elected. So her "experience" derives from the experience of her rookie husband? Is that what she's telling us? And even there, she didn't have a security clearance and wasn't in on his negotiations anyhow. It's smoke and mirrors. Hillary has very little significant foreign policy experience, and that's a fact.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #34
48. right, So, she's even more qualified than he was when he was elected
that's still more than her rival.
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
8. WHen did she cross The Threshold? I still want to know what the f*ck she has done
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
10. I've lived overseas, in 3 countries, and I have family overseas.
I've served on local committees, was actively involved against the invasion and I made purple prose speeches to all my friends in a like-minded environment! I never get rattled in public and rarely lose my cool in private.

Pick me for POTUS! Pick me!

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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. LOL!
funny pic! :rofl:
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #10
58. ROFL!!!! That's The Best Pic I've Seen Yet! Too Funny!
:rofl:
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zabet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
96. ....
:spray:
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
12. She voted for a war that has killed a million people.
That the generals like her is a very good reason not to vote for her.

Note: LBJ has a lot of "experience".
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. she did not vote for the war.
And, a few of these generals have been hailed here at DU for their open opposition to Bush's militarism in Iraq.
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Rosemary2205 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #14
33. No she didn't
Her only mistake was putting more faith in the Bush admin's truth telling ability than in accurate information gathering ability of the internet "pajama media" at the time. I fault her for that. She SHOULD have been able to get her head wrapped around the fact BUSHCO is criminal. There were others that did.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #14
56. No. She voted out of political expediency to look "tough".
She has supported the war throughout. The generals aren't against the war, they are against losing the war.

She has also continued to vote to fund the carnage.

She will never get my support or vote.

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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #12
59. No She Didn't. Stop Spreading Deceitful Lies About Good Dems.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #59
61. "Good Democrats" vote to kill people in support of a Repbublican president?
Are "Good Democrats" like "Good Germans"? With the same excuses - "I didn't know".
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. Stop Spreading Deceitful Lies About Good Dems.
Shame on you.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #12
70. Only those with reading comprehension problems believe that.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
16. Hillary: I brought peace to Northern Ireland and Bosnia
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. as a personal envoy of her husband, the president
. . . who has been hailed as instrumental.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. I think she was a great First Lady.
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 11:03 AM by VolcanoJen
She did what First Ladies do, travel around the world on behalf of their spouse. But "instrumental" to the Northern Ireland and Bosnian peace processes?? I see your "instrumental" and raise you one "ancillary."


Clinton's 'experience' claim under scrutiny

But her involvement in the Northern Ireland peace process was primarily to encourage activism among women's groups there, a contribution that the lead U.S. negotiator described as "helpful" but that an Irish historian who has written extensively about the conflict dismissed as "ancillary" to the peace process.

The Macedonian government opened its border to refugees the day before Clinton arrived to meet with government leaders. And her mission to Bosnia was a one-day visit in which she was accompanied by performers Sheryl Crow and Sinbad, as well as her daughter, Chelsea, according to the commanding general who hosted her.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #25
36. of course, I said her husband was instrumental
. . . and that she was a personal representative of the president, at a time when the peace process was underway. I didn't intend to exaggerate her role. I can't help but view her role as helpful, in some way to the process President Clinton had initiated. I don't think it's out of line to suggest that, while there she had opportunities to forge alliances and convey the wishes of her husband to parties involved in that process. Bill Clinton says so. And, I wouldn't expect that those conversations would be a matter of public record, since it isn't the most delicate matter for a First Lady to be perceived as negotiating foreign policy, even if she was just a spokesperson for the positions of her husband, the president.
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elixir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. Nice pic of Hillary and Chelsea supporting the troops. thanks.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. Laura Bush supports the troops, too.
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 11:05 AM by VolcanoJen
You're welcome!

Here's a nice pic of Laura bringing unity to Germany:

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #26
46. I believe Laura Bush is a bit of a dolt
but, you go on and elevate her to diplomat.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #46
49. You wrote the rules, I'm just playing your game.
I don't think Laura Bush is a dolt, actually. But more importantly, I don't think traveling around the world as America's #1 Cheerleader, which is what First Ladies have historically done, translates into having foreign policy experience.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #49
53. So, even Laura Bush has more foreign affairs experience than Obama
. . . by your own standard.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. No. Hillary and Laura have more experience...
... at foreign travel than Barack Obama, maybe.

Do you really not discern the difference?
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #55
66. I've made my points in this thread to rebut that,
You really have no credible defense of Obama's brevity of experience, except for the 2002 speech and your belittlement of the documented efforts of Hillary Clinton abroad.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #66
69. It might be because I'm not buying Hillary's "experience" argument.
I certainly know she's incapable of bringing real change, and I'm a change voter this cycle. I'm a "Crashing the Gate, 50-State-Strategy" Democrat.

You and I are very far apart ideologically, but that doesn't make either of us right. Just stubborn.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #69
78. What is this crap people saying they are voting for change?
Change as an argument doesn't even fit into the category of ideology. What changes does Obama have in mind and, more importantly, how would he go about making these mysterious changes.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #16
29. Never underestimate the diplomatic power of ...
leading folks in a rousing rendition of "If It Makes You Happy".
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #29
37. ROFL
I do love me some Sheryl Crow, though. ;-)
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
77. you need to Re-read that post from yesterday. Lots of personal testimony
from people who actually where there and worked with Sen. Clinton.
Demeaning her work is not conducive to a good conversion.
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
20. "I've lived overseas" isn't going to sound so impressive
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 11:02 AM by LibDemAlways
to Americans in a debate when McCain counters that he lived overseas, too, in the Hanoi Hilton where he was held captive for 5 years and tortured. And you know that in a debate the pro-repuke moderators are going to hammer home that point.

And this is not a pro-Hillary post. She has nothing to offer up against McCain's "I was a POW meme" either.

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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #20
39. Obama was a kid when he "lived overseas".
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 11:17 AM by Seabiscuit
I hope he's referring to the Philippines, and not Hawaii. Hawaii was a State when he lived there with his grandparents and attended an elite private school.

That line isn't going to do him any good any more than "my mom was a teen mother", or "my mom was a single mother".
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #39
54. According to his bio he lived in Indonesia for awhile as
a child but was back in the states by age 10. I hope he doesn't intend to stress this if ever in a debate with McCain. He'll end up looking ridiculous.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #54
76. my my---I sure hope not--!!
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zabet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
23. Thank you bigtree!
:kick: and R
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #23
153. k
:thumbsup:
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
24. Evidence of Hillary's "HUGH" experience and readiness
Hillary helping bring peace to Northland Ireland --

Hillary working for reconciliation in Bosnia --
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #24
40. stay focused. The OP is about BO's 'experince"
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indimuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #40
114. what?
now BO has experience?
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #24
50. cute, but certainly not the extent of her involvement. Still, more than Obama.
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Rosemary2205 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
27. I honestly DON'T understand this discussion
the only "experience" actually needed for being a successful POTUS is at least a little bit of management ability. -- a successful POTUS is all about whether someone's personal qualities match what's needed at the time. Now that we have the TeeeVeee a certain measure of on air charisma is required. But POTUS is really almost entirely LEADERSHIP. A successful POTUS is the one with vision, heart and creativity - and the ability to gather effective people to do the actual work.

This experience thing is bullshit. There's no possible way to be "experienced" enough to look Kruschev in the face and not blink. That is a personal quality and belief in what the intelligence community and your advisors are telling you at that moment in time.

If they want to talk about maturity, fine. But "I have experience" is idiotic.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #27
146. Experience encompasses more than singular aspects of military and foreign affairs
It matters whether our commander in chief will have to learn on the job, or have the background and hands on experience with these issues to enable them to be on the ground running when they assume office. It matters to me, especially with the problems we face in this decade ahead.
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
31. This is only my opinion. You don't have to live over seas...
You don't have to have experience as a President to be qualified to be President. But in my opinion. You do have to stop voting to fund this illigal war......
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Mags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #31
67. Bush had very little foreign experience, but he had more than BO.
Look what that has gotten us.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
38. Obama and Susan Rice on Clinton's experience

Clinton's experience



Obama communications director Robert Gibbs emails reporters with a picture of Clinton and Sheryl Crow from a 1996 trip to Kosovo, linking a series of recent articles including this Chicago Tribune piece making the point that Clinton wasn't a central player on foreign policy in her husband's administration.

more


Susan Rice: C'mon, Senators Clinton and McCain

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
42. It doesn't count! Hillary had tea with the wives of tyrants.
Hillary's record includes hugging the mastermind of the Sabra and Chatila massacre and calling him "a great man."

Now, that's the kinda record we can all be proud!
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #42
60. you mean Sharon.
That's your perfect right to condemn her for embracing the head of state of our Democratic ally.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
43. Clinton: "I sent soldiers to their Death for Bush because I didn't Read the NIE."
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. Obama sent soldiers to their death by FUNDING the war.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #47
64. Let's see Hillary sends the troops...
to their death, not even equipping them properly, and Obama votes on a Spending Bill.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #64
75. "he voted against a troop withdrawal proposal by Senators John Kerry of Massachusett s& Feing
But for the most part, he stuck to party lines; there were few examples of the kind of bipartisan work he advocates in his current campaign.

He disappointed some Democrats by not taking a more prominent role opposing the war — he voted against a troop withdrawal proposal by Senators John Kerry of Massachusetts and Russ Feingold of Wisconsin in June 2006, arguing that a firm date for withdrawal would hamstring diplomats and military commanders in the field.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/09/us/politics/09obama.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #75
81. Yes I know...
I read his rationale. I guess questioning the best way to get out of Iraq (while protecting American business interests) is the same thing as voting to invade another country.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
52. Sorry, but I go with Wes Clark and the other military experts
As someone pointed out on MTP this morning, Hillary Clinton is even more qualified than her husband was when he took office in 92. Bill was a bright guy who surrounded himself with bright people and became very successful in foreign policy. Hillary Clinton has benefited from his experience and the relationships she developed then and since with military and foreign leaders.

Obama comes to the table with very little, including little in his past record to show he was even interested in foreign policy (no hearings on Afghanistan War in the committee he chaired). He has shown similar values and lack of commitment in health care reform.

Obama brings nothing to the table other than speeches and plenty of experience in positioning himself for higher office. This isn't the year for on the job training in foreign policy.

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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
57. K & R Friend. No Doubt In My Mind She'd Make The Better President.
Hopefully, we see her there just yet, and with a bonus, hopefully with Obama as the VP. I'm so hoping in the end of this all that's what we see! 16 years of greatness!!!!
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
63. Obama's qualifications are simply laughable.
It is really arrogant of him to claim he can lead this country. I shudder to think how he will be chewed up and spit out up by the political machine, if by some small chance he wins in a gereral election.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #63
80. I am shocked
that you all are still pushing Senator Clinton's bedside experience. I guess you have no interest in any experience but that with proximity to the White House. Seeing as how our country is going down the tubes, and our society is falling apart, maybe it is better that we have a polarizing couple manning the helm. That way we can further fractionalize whatever unity is left in this country and devolve in some kind of sectarian war ala Iraq. Everything should come home to roost, and why postpone the race to the bottom?
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #80
86. What experience does he have?
It's not enough to claim she has none. I need to know what experience he has in this area. As far as I can see, the answer is "none". Which still gives Hillary the advantage.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #86
91. He campaigned in southern Illinois?
Someone needs to tell him Carbondale and Marion are not foreign countries.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #91
94. He's from Chicago. He'd never understand that, no matter how much you tried
to explain it.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #86
109. If you really wanted to know...
it would be really easy for you to find out. I guess you just don't want to? I'll supply you with a little, but I doubt you will even read it.

1993

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/January-1993... /
Vote of Confidence
A huge black turnout in November 1992 altered Chicago's electoral landscape—and raised a new political star: a 31-year-old lawyer named Barack Obama.
By Gretchen Reynolds

In the final, climactic buildup to November's general election, with George Bush gaining ground on Bill Clinton in Illinois and the once-unstoppable campaign of senatorial candidate Carol Moseley Braun embroiled in allegations about her mother's Medicare liability, one of the most important local stories managed to go virtually unreported: The number of new voter registrations before the election hit an all-time high. And the majority of those new voters were black. More than 150,000 new African-American voters were added to the city's rolls. In fact, for the first time in Chicago's history-including the heyday of Harold Washington-voter registrations in the 19 predominantly black wards outnumbered those in the city's 19 predominantly white ethnic wards, 676,000 to 526,000.

The election, to some degree, turned on these totals: Braun and Clinton had almost unanimous support among blacks. But just as important, if less obvious, are the implications black votership could have for future city and state elections: For the first time in ten years, more than half a million blacks went to the polls in Chicago. And with gubernatorial and mayoral elections coming up in the next two years, it served notice to every¬one from Jim Edgar to Richard M. Daley that an African-American voting bloc would be a force to be reckoned with in those races.

None of this, of course, was accidental. The most effective minority voter registration drive in memory was the result of careful handiwork by Project Vote!, the local chapter of a not-for-profit national organization. "It was the most efficient campaign I have seen in my 20 years in politics," says Sam Burrell, alderman of the West Side's 29th Ward and a veteran of many registration drives.


At the head of this effort was a little-known 31-year-old African-American lawyer, community organizer, and writer: Barack Obama. The son of a black Kenyan political activist and a white American anthropologist, Obama was born in Hawaii, received a degree in political science and English literature from Columbia University, and, in 1990, became the first black editor of the Harvard Law Review. In 1984, after Columbia but before Harvard, Obama moved to Chicago. "I came because of Harold Washington," he says. "I wanted to do community organizing, and I couldn't think of a better city than one as energized and hopeful as Chicago was then." He went to work for a South Side church-affiliated development group and "was heartened by the enthusiasm." But barely three years later, Washington died, and Obama, convinced he needed additional skills, enrolled at Harvard Law School. The African-American community he left, rent by political divisions and without a clear leader, went into a steep decline. By 1991, when Obama, law degree in hand, returned to Chicago to work on a book about race relations-having turned his back on the Supreme Court clerkship that is almost a given for the law review's top editor-black voter registration and turnout in the city were at their lowest points since record keeping began.

Six months after he took the helm of Chicago's Project Vote!, those conditions had been reversed.



http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1704117,...

Obama's accomplishments are more substantial and varied than Clinton suggests. And he has a longer record in elected office than she does, as a second-term New York senator.

Obama was a community organizer and led a voter-registration effort in Chicago that added tens of thousands of people to the rolls. He was a civil rights attorney and taught at one of the nation's premier universities. He helped pass complicated measures in the Illinois legislature on the death penalty, racial profiling, health care and more. In Washington, he has worked with Republicans on nuclear proliferation, government waste and global warming, amassing a record that speaks to a fast start while lacking the heft of years of service.

--------------------------------------------------------------
After college, Obama moved to Chicago for a low-paying job as a community organizer. He worked with poor families on the South Side to get improvements in public housing, particularly the removal of asbestos.

"Nobody else running for president has jumped off the career track for three or four years to help people," said Jerry Kellman, who first hired Obama as a community organizer.

Obama also fought for student summer jobs and a program to keep at-risk children from dropping out of school. More importantly, say those who worked with Obama, he showed people how to organize and confront powerful interests.

"He had to train residents to stand up for their own rights," said former organizer Loretta Augustine-Herron, who was part of Obama's Developing Communities Project.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Obama then spent several years focusing on the law, both as an attorney at a small firm specializing in civil rights and as a lecturer on constitutional law at the University of Chicago.

As an attorney, he was on the team that successfully sued the state of Illinois for failing to implement a federal voter-registration law. Obama also worked on case of a whistle-blower who lost her job after exposing waste and corruption in a medical research project. The whistle-blower ended up with a $5 million settlement.


Obama was elected to the Illinois state Senate in 1996, when Democrats were in the minority. He proposed hundreds of new laws, including universal health care, tougher gun control and expanded welfare, but saw most of them spiked by Republican leadership.

He did have some successes, though — particularly in passing legislation sharply restricting the gifts that Illinois politicians could accept from lobbyists. Illinois has notoriously weak government ethics laws, and the Gift Ban Act was the first major new restriction since the Watergate era.

Obama also helped set up Illinois' "KidCare" program that provided health care to children in families that did not qualify for Medicaid.

John Bouman, president of the Sargent Shriver National Center on Poverty Law, said Obama's work helped make the program more consumer-friendly. He also said Obama was often willing to give up credit for the legislation if that helped win Republican support.

"It tells you something that as a relatively junior member in the minority party, he was an important negotiator," Bouman said.

---------------
He teamed with Sen. Richard Lugar, R-Ind., to study the dangers of nuclear proliferation and pass legislation meant to keep nuclear material from falling into the hands of terrorists.

Obama also joined with Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., after Hurricane Katrina to improve oversight of federal spending.

And he shared billing with a Republican presidential hopeful when he joined Arizona Sen. John McCain in sponsoring legislation that called for sharp, mandatory cuts in greenhouse gas emissions. The effort failed.


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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #109
124. Read it. Didn't see a thing about foreign policy. nt
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #124
140. what do you want?
and if you want it why can't you look it up? You seem to have a certain set of criteria that any person seeking the nomination must have but you don't say what it is, nor how is it you define "foreign policy experience"?


Behind Obama and Clinton

Stephen Zunes | February 4, 2008
Foreign Policy In Focus
www.fpif.org

Voters on the progressive wing of the Democratic Party are rightly disappointed by the similarity of the foreign policy positions of the two remaining Democratic Party presidential candidates, Senator Hillary Clinton and Senator Barack Obama. However, there are still some real discernable differences to be taken into account. Indeed, given the power the United States has in the world, even minimal differences in policies can have a major difference in the lives of millions of people.

As a result, the kind of people the next president appoints to top positions in national defense, intelligence, and foreign affairs is critical. Such officials usually emerge from among a presidential candidate’s team of foreign policy advisors. So, analyzing who these two finalists for the Democratic presidential nomination have brought in to advise them on international affairs can be an important barometer for determining what kind for foreign policies they would pursue as president. For instance, in the case of the Bush administration, officials like Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, and Richard Perle played a major role in the fateful decision to invade Iraq by convincing the president that Saddam Hussein was an imminent threat and that American forces would be treated as liberators.

The leading Republican candidates have surrounded themselves with people likely to encourage the next president to follow down a similarly disastrous path. But what about Senators Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton? Who have they picked to help them deal with Iraq war and the other immensely difficult foreign policy decisions that they'll be likely to face as president?
Contrasting Teams

Senator Clinton’s foreign policy advisors tend to be veterans of President Bill Clinton’s administration, most notably former secretary of state Madeleine Albright and former National Security Adviser Sandy Berger. Her most influential advisor - and her likely choice for Secretary of State - is Richard Holbrooke. Holbrooke served in a number of key roles in her husband’s administration, including U.S. ambassador to the UN and member of the cabinet, special emissary to the Balkans, assistant secretary of state for European and Canadian affairs, and U.S. ambassador to Germany. He also served as President Jimmy Carter’s assistant secretary of state for East Asia in propping up Marcos in the Philippines, supporting Suharto’s repression in East Timor, and backing the generals behind the Kwangju massacre in South Korea.

Senator Barack Obama’s foreign policy advisers, who on average tend to be younger than those of the former first lady, include mainstream strategic analysts who have worked with previous Democratic administrations, such as former national security advisors Zbigniew Brzezinski and Anthony Lake, former assistant secretary of state Susan Rice, and former navy secretary Richard Danzig. They have also included some of the more enlightened and creative members of the Democratic Party establishment, such as Joseph Cirincione and Lawrence Korb of the Center for American Progress, and former counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke. His team also includes the noted human rights scholar and international law advocate Samantha Power - author of a recent New Yorker article on U.S. manipulation of the UN in post-invasion Iraq - and other liberal academics. Some of his advisors, however, have particularly poor records on human rights and international law, such as retired General Merrill McPeak, a backer of Indonesia’s occupation of East Timor, and Dennis Ross, a supporter of Israel’s occupation of the West Bank.
Contrasting Issues

While some of Obama’s key advisors, like Larry Korb, have expressed concern at the enormous waste from excess military spending, Clinton’s advisors have been strong supporters of increased resources for the military.

While Obama advisors Susan Rice and Samantha Power have stressed the importance of U.S. multilateral engagement, Albright allies herself with the jingoism of the Bush administration, taking the attitude that “If we have to use force, it is because we are America! We are the indispensable nation. We stand tall, and we see further into the future.”

While Susan Rice has emphasized how globalization has led to uneven development that has contributed to destabilization and extremism and has stressed the importance of bottom-up anti-poverty programs, Berger and Albright have been outspoken supporters of globalization on the current top-down neo-liberal lines.

Obama advisors like Joseph Cirincione have emphasized a policy toward Iraq based on containment and engagement and have downplayed the supposed threat from Iran. Clinton advisor Holbrooke, meanwhile, insists that "the Iranians are an enormous threat to the United States,” the country is “the most pressing problem nation,” and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is like Hitler.
Iraq as Key Indicator

Perhaps the most important difference between the two foreign policy teams concerns Iraq. Given the similarities in the proposed Iraq policies of Senator Hillary Clinton and Senator Barack Obama, Obama’s supporters have emphasized that their candidate had the better judgment in opposing the invasion beforehand. Indeed, in the critical months prior to the launch of the war in 2003, Obama openly challenged the Bush administration’s exaggerated claims of an Iraqi threat and presciently warned that a war would lead to an increase in Islamic extremism, terrorism, and regional instability, as well as a decline in America’s standing in the world.

Senator Clinton, meanwhile, was repeating as fact the administration’s false claims of an imminent Iraqi threat. She voted to authorize President Bush to invade that oil-rich country at the time and circumstances of his own choosing and confidently predicted success. Despite this record and Clinton’s refusal to apologize for her war authorization vote, however, her supporters argue that it no longer relevant and voters need to focus on the present and future.

Indeed, whatever choices the next president makes with regard to Iraq are going to be problematic, and there are no clear answers at this point. Yet one’s position regarding the invasion of Iraq at that time says a lot about how a future president would address such questions as the use of force, international law, relations with allies, and the use of intelligence information.

As a result, it may be significant that Senator Clinton’s foreign policy advisors, many of whom are veterans of her husband’s administration, were virtually all strong supporters of President George W. Bush’s call for a U.S. invasion of Iraq. By contrast, almost every one of Senator Obama’s foreign policy team was opposed to a U.S. invasion.
Pre-War Positions

During the lead-up to the war, Obama’s advisors were suspicious of the Bush administration’s claims that Iraq somehow threatened U.S. national security to the extent that it required a U.S. invasion and occupation of that country. For example, Zbigniew Brzezinski, national security advisor in the Carter administration, argued that public support for war “should not be generated by fear-mongering or demagogy.”

By contrast, Clinton’s top advisor and her likely pick for secretary of state, Richard Holbrooke, insisted that Iraq remained “a clear and present danger at all times.”

Brzezinski warned that the international community would view the invasion of a country that was no threat to the United States as an illegitimate an act of aggression. Noting that it would also threaten America’s leadership, Brzezinski said that “without a respected and legitimate law-enforcer, global security could be in serious jeopardy.” Holbrooke, rejecting the broad international legal consensus against offensive wars, insisted that it was perfectly legitimate for the United States to invade Iraq and that the European governments and anti-war demonstrators who objected “undoubtedly encouraged” Saddam Hussein.

Another key Obama advisor, Joseph Cirincione of the Carnegie Endowment, argued that the goal of containing the potential threat from Iraq had been achieved, noting that “Saddam Hussein is effectively incarcerated and under watch by a force that could respond immediately and devastatingly to any aggression. Inside Iraq, the inspection teams preclude any significant advance in WMD capabilities. The status quo is safe for the American people.”

By contrast, Clinton advisor Sandy Berger, who served as her husband’s national security advisor, insisted that “even a contained Saddam” was “harmful to stability and to positive change in the region,” and therefore the United States had to engage in “regime change” in order to “fight terror, avert regional conflict, promote peace, and protect the security of our friends and allies.”

Meanwhile, other future Obama advisors, such as Larry Korb, raised concerns about the human and material costs of invading and occupying a heavily populated country in the Middle East and the risks of chaos and a lengthy counter-insurgency war.

And other top advisors to Senator Clinton – such as her husband’s former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright – confidently predicted that American military power could easily suppress any opposition to a U.S. takeover of Iraq. Such confidence in the ability of the United States to impose its will through force is reflected to this day in the strong support for President Bush’s troop surge among such Clinton advisors (and original invasion advocates) as Jack Keane, Kenneth Pollack, and Michael O’Hanlon. Perhaps that was one reason that, during the recent State of the Union address, when Bush proclaimed that the Iraqi surge was working, Clinton stood and cheered while Obama remained seated and silent.

These differences in the key circles of foreign policy specialists surrounding these two candidates are consistent with their diametrically opposed views in the lead-up to the war.
National Security

Not every one of Clinton’s foreign policy advisors is a hawk. Her team also includes some centrist opponents of the war, including retired General Wesley Clark and former Ambassador Joseph Wilson.

On balance, it appears likely that a Hillary Clinton administration, like Bush’s, would be more likely to embrace exaggerated and alarmist reports regarding potential national security threats, to ignore international law and the advice of allies, and to launch offensive wars. By contrast, a Barack Obama administration would be more prone to examine the actual evidence of potential threats before reacting, to work more closely with America’s allies to maintain peace and security, to respect the country’s international legal obligations, and to use military force only as a last resort.

Progressive Democrats do have reason to be disappointed with Obama’s foreign policy agenda. At the same time, as The Nation magazine noted, members of Obama’s foreign policy team are “more likely to stress ’soft power’ issues like human rights, global development and the dangers of failed states.” As a result, “Obama may be more open to challenging old Washington assumptions and crafting new approaches.”

And new approaches are definitely needed.

Stephen Zunes, a Foreign Policy In Focus analyst, is a professor of politics and international studies at the University of San Francisco
http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/4940
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #140
141. you posted an article about his advisers' experience, not his
I want to see Obama's qualifications, not the folk's he'd be learning on the job from.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #141
144. And again...
You do not define YOUR "Qualifications" or what YOU see as the Foreign Policy "experience", required to be elected as the President of the United States. And if YOU can't define what it is YOU are looking for, I'm afraid no one can help you. Would you require that he be at the bedside in order to qualify as President?
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #144
148. Well, you're correct, that it's a judgment call for voters.
I imagine that most folks will rely on something other than their gut to make their decision on these issues, at least, when they choose between these two candidates.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #80
89. More sexist remarks, Clenis obsession
Why is it GOP'ers are so obsessed with the Clenis? It is all powerful. :rofl:
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #63
88. The virgin candidate
Winning with the Chicago political machine behind you isn't enough.
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Frank Booth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
79. Is this really all you could dig up?
"Jaw-boning" someone to get out of his car? Throwing up after meeting refugees?

Pretty darn sparse. Really, I have to question the judgment of anyone who bases their support of Hillary on her "experience in foreign and military affairs."

Especially when the only substantive part of that experience is her authorization for war in Iraq. Oh yeah, and voting against a ban on cluster bombs so we can kill more of "them pesky civilians."
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #79
90. ha--that lame old NON-vote of Obama's is real boring
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #79
95. What experience does Obama have? nt
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #79
119. like Hillary Clinton says
. . . all Obama has is a speech he made in 2002
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
84. Hillary has had tea overseas in 80 countries, which Jamie Rubin
her foreign policy adviser, recounts as her "foreign policy experience." Oh, that and a 1995 speech she made at the Women's Conference in China.

We're not impressed with her faux resume.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #84
87. And all of that is still more than Obama has. nt
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #87
92. Not according to actual facts, the attempted ClintonCo smear notwithstanding.
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 02:00 PM by AtomicKitten
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. He was a state senator in Illinois, and a one term US Senator.
Where's the foreign policy experience?
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #93
97. Um, Obama isn't LYING about his experience, Hillary is LYING about hers.
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 02:18 PM by AtomicKitten
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. And she still has more experience than him.
Because he has none.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. 11 years in the Illinois State Senate and 3 in the US Senate isn't nothing.
Plus he worked as a civil rights attorney, lectured on Constitutional law, and worked as a community organizer in the economically depressed south side of Chicago.

This makes him UNIQUELY qualified.

Hillary? Not so much.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. No foreign policy experience.
None.

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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #100
102. The point is neither does she & she was dumb enough to run an ad pointing that out.
That's the funniest part of her scorched earth tactics: In her effort to hurt Barack, she exposed her own anemic resume and the fact that she too doesn't have foreign policy experience. What a bone-headed move on her part.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #102
103. She still has more than he has.
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 02:36 PM by mycritters2
I don't understand his rush to be president. He could stay in the Senate and actually GET experience. But I understand he has a timetable, and wants to be president NOW!


What an ego. :eyes:
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #103
105. She has experience in hubris and bullshit.
Obama is a real leader. Plus he's winning and she can't catch up. Good times.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #105
107. He's the one with the hubris.
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 02:45 PM by mycritters2
He believes he should be president because he's one helluva speaker. There's no reason whatsoever to believe he can govern. That's what scares me.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #93
101. Her experience is D.C. crony corporatism and corruption.
Dense much? He never claimed to have any -- Hillary is lying when she says she has anything in the ballpark of relevant experience, and that in a breathing stroke of irony is backed up by her own surrogates on tee-vee out loud. Woo-hoo!

Hillary is entirely full of sh*t and would gladly hit you in the face with shovel if pressed on her experience because she doesn't have any.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #101
104. And his is Cook County crony corporatism and corruption.
Naive much? He's never so much as met with foreign leaders. He touts having lived overseas--as a child--as foreign policy experience. :rofl:

I lived in Wisconsin for a year and a half when I was 11 and 12. Think they'd let me be governor?
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #104
106. Riiight! So, where are those tax returns? Hmmmm?
They will show the Clintons knee-deep in corrupt cronyism.

No worries. Barack is winning and she can't catch up.

Good times. :hi:
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #106
108. He's held national office for 2 years.
My beagle is only two years less qualfied for the presidency than Obama. And would lay out more concrete policy positions.
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metalluk Donating Member (266 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
110. Obama's lack of preparedness
You've provided a very fair-minded appraisal of the relative preparedness of the two candidates for the Presidency of the United States. Experience does indeed matter although it is not the only factor determining the success of presidents. Obama may some day be an excellent candidate for the position he seeks but, at present, he is woefully underqualified. People of sound judgment prepare themselves systematically for the positions in life to which they aspire.

The weaknesses in Obama's resume are not limited to foreign affairs. Obama has no substantial executive, managerial, or budgetary experience. A low-level position as a community organizer together with a dozen years as a highly respected law professor and six years in the Illinois state legislature is very little preparation for the Presidency. As a freshman U.S. Senator, he's attached a few minor amendments to bills, a respectable performance but nothing exceptional. The worst of it is that he is setting himself up for failure and endangering the country by his desire to leapfrog ahead to a position for which he is not prepared. If elected, he will be providing the Republicans with every opportunity of repeating their litany that Democrats can't govern effectively. Obama's best strategy for career advancement as well as the good of the country is to acquire a reasonable level of executive experience before seeking the most difficult executive position that the world has to offer.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #110
112. Welcome to DU, and thank you for this thoughtful post.
I am deeply afraid that the party will be deeply damaged by an Obama presidency. There's no reason whatsoever to believe this man will be able to govern. And when it turns ut he can't, he'll take the whole party down with him. I can't understand what people are thinking, but I fear we'll be sorry one day.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #110
120. smart post
thanks for your perspective.
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sueragingroz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
111. I live in Bermuda - therefore I should be President...
:rofl:
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #111
113. I lived in Wisconsin for a year and a half as a child.
I'm planning to run for governor in the next election!
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Frank Booth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #113
115. Obama has more foreign policy experience
than Bill Clinton did when he first took office.

You're also confusing the issues. Obama supporters aren't claiming that he has a wealth of foreign policy experience. They're pointing out Hillary's hypocrisy in claiming that she has substantially more experience.

Remember, Hillary miserably failed the biggest foreign experience test of her life. No matter how many ways she tries to talk her way out of that mistake, in the end it was still a horrible, horrible decision.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #115
116. What foreign policy experience does he have?
Oh, right. He lived overseas. As a child. That'll come in handy.
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Frank Booth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #116
117. He served on the foreign relations committee. That's more than Bill had.
I'll admit, Obama doesn't have a ton of foreign policy experience. But neither does Hillary. If foreign policy experience is your main consideration for a candidate, then both candidates are lacking.

I just find it very deceptive when Hillary claims she's got so much more experience than Obama, when she really does not. And (again) the judgment she exhibited on the most important foreign policy issue was unforgivably horrible.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #117
118. Indeed. Both candidates are lacking. THAT is the problem. nt
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #117
128. It's telling, that there haven't been ANY posts outlining his efforts on that committee
How about his supporters JUST outlining what his committee work on military and foreign affairs was in 2007 . . . You've, unsurprisingly, settled on Clinton's main point about Obama's claim to 'experience', 'one speech he made in 2002.

Here's a slice of Sen Clinton's committee work in 2007:


Sen. Clinton 2007 ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE HEARINGS
http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/nationalsecurity/sasc

Senator Clinton Questions General David Petraeus and Ambassador Ryan Crocker on Iraq at Senate Armed Services Committee Hearing - September 11, 2007
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=282410&&

Senator Clinton Questions General James Jones (Ret.) on the Findings of the Iraqi Security Forces Independent Assessment Commission - September 6, 2007
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=281941&&

Nominee for Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Commits to Senator Clinton to Brief Congress on Redeployment Planning - July 31, 2007
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=279055&&

Senate Armed Services Committee Approves Clinton Measures to Help Wounded Servicemembers - June 14, 2007
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=277007&&

Senator Clinton Questions Lieutenant General Douglas Lute at Senate Armed Services Committee Confirmation Hearing - June 7, 2007
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=275680&&

Senator Clinton Questions U.S. Central Commander Admiral William Fallon at Senate Armed Services Committee Hearing - May 3, 2007
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=273625&&

Senator Clinton Calls for Closure of Guantanamo Bay Detention Center - April 26, 2007
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=273211&&

Clinton Presses Bush Pentagon on Contracting Abuses in Iraq - April 19, 2007
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=272692&&

Remarks of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton at Senate Armed Services Committee Hearing on State of the U.S. Army and Marine Corps - April 17, 2007
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=272681&&

Clinton Continues to Fight for Our Troops & Veterans; Questions Pentagon and Veterans Affairs Officials About Treatment of Servicemembers and Veterans at Joint Armed Services-Veteran Affairs Committee Hearing - April 12, 2007
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=272340&&

Senator Clinton Questions Air Force Leaders Over CSAR-X Contract Process - March 20, 2007
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?i...

Senator Clinton Questions Army Generals About Living Conditions and Administration of Outpatients at Walter Reed Army Medical Center - March 6, 2007
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=271008&&

Senator Clinton Questions Administration and Military Officials About U.S. Policy in Afghanistan - March 1, 2007
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=269992&&

Senator Clinton Questions Vice Admiral John M. McConnell, USN (ret), Director of National Intelligence and Lieutenant General Michael Maples, USA, the Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency at a Senate Armed Services Committee Hearing on Worldwide Threats - February 27, 2007
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=269792&&

Senator Clinton Raises Iraq and Darfur with Defense Secretary Gates and General Pace, Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff, at a Senate Armed Services Committee Hearing on the Administration's FY 08 Department of Defense Budget Request - February 6, 2007
http://www.clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=268629&&

Senator Clinton Questions General George Casey Jr. on His Nomination to be United States Army Chief of Staff - February 1, 2007
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=268451&&

Senator Clinton Questions Admiral William J. Fallon, Nominee for Commander, United States Central Command - January 30, 2007
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=268177&&

Senator Clinton Questions Defense Secretary William Perry, Ambassador Dennis Ross, and General Jack Keane on Iraq Strategy - January 25, 2007
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=268038&&

Senator Clinton Questions General David Petraeus at Senate Armed Services Committee Hearing - January 23, 2007
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=267862&&


http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/nationalsecurity/sasc
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Frank Booth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #128
139. You know, I have the cut and paste functions on my computer as well.
But, just like you're not going to change my mind by cutting and pasting, I don't imagine I'll be changing your mind by cutting and pasting either.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #139
142. that's just a cop out. I've worked pretty hard to compile these. Cut and paste is a courtesy to you
I've gone beyond just declaring my view, and, provided you with actual, concrete proof of Hillary Clinton's involvement. You need to do better than just assert your own view about his qualifications.
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candice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
122. Followed by mother when I was a boy to be with her and her new husband...
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Frank Booth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #122
125. Oh, the horror!
He used his academic smarts to get a scholarship to a posh prep school! What a disgusting kid he must have been!

And then he was awarded scholarships to Columbia and Harvard Law School! He'd be a much better candidate if he had just known his place, skated by in school, didn't bother going to college, and ended up working in the lobby of a resort on the beach in Honolulu.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #125
126. This is part of my problem with him...
I don't think we should keep turning public schools over to people who didn't attend them. That is what got us NCLB. I'd rather have a candidate, for once, who did NOT attend a posh private school--however they got there.

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Frank Booth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #126
130. So you're going to hold it against him
that he was a smart, diligent kid, whose parents (or grandparents) thought that he should take adavantage of an academic scholarship awarded to him by the best school in Hawaii? You know, I went to a crappy public school (and I realize that many public schools are great, but mine was not), and if I'd had the chance to go to a place where other kids actually cared about learning, I think that would have been a good thing.

I might be able to understand criticizing a candidate for the fact that his/her wealthy parents sent him/her to an elite private school (like our current president), but your criticism of a lower middle class kid who gets awarded an academic scholarship makes no sense to me.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #130
134. The effect is the same....a sense of entitlement, lack of contact with
ordinary voters, etc. And no idea how publci schools operate or what they need. Public schools are a mess because policy is made by people with no experience of them.
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candice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #125
154. I thought his mother's family was well-to-do
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Cant trust em Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
137. as a supporter, I can attest that this was a pretty lame line
I know plenty of people who have lived overseas. That don't mean shit.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
145.  (6) Breakfast at IHOP.
:bounce:G:dunce:bama
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
150. (7) A neighbor and former business partner of Ambassador Rezko.
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 06:49 PM by oasis
:pals:
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susankh4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
151. Absolutely pathetic
Do they really think Mr. McCain's team doesn't know this stuff?

Mr. Obama will be eaten alive by the GOP if we send him out there like this.

I'm sorry... but the Dem leadership sucks this year.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
152. Who coached her to constantly put her arm out like that?
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 06:58 PM by jenmito
She didn't start OUT doing that. Just another contrived action by the inauthentic, unnatural candidate.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #152
158. "Just another contrived action by the inauthentic, unnatural candidate"pick, pick pick!!
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
155. Obama made 1 short visit to London, that's it, during all his elected time
he has no foreign experience to speak of in his elected capacity

bfd that he lived in indonesia....or has family there

i have family in lots of places, i've visted them, too....but it doesn't make me one wit qualified to be commander in chief

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #155
156. good points
:kick:
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oviedodem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
160. And with all that Hillary STUPIDLY supported a war in Iraq has been
wishy-washy on Iran, likes the use of cluster bombs on civilians, flip-flopped on torture. All you have proved is that Hillary is another big-miliatary minded politician like the republicans.

Yes I am afraid very afraid that if she is office we will be in a perpetual war with someone for her entire 8 years.
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