Discussion with independent voter at work today RE: Clark

Said he didn't vote in last election but had come to be a fan of Bush and would have voted for him in 2004 accept... he saw Clark on CSPAN

"Kinda makes me lean towards Clark after hearing him speak... you know what I mean?"

Yep!

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I mean, it's not like we want to WIN or anything...

at what cost? We know Clark's history. For our party, the cost would be very high. It's possible to win the battle and still lose the war.

The democrats can win with nothing but the votes of registered democrats, you lack understanding of basic arithmetic.

In fact, he just called all of us Clark supporters republicans.

is a disgruntled republican.

...by calling his supporters republicans.

your post above says the guy was a fan of Bush.
Clark was a fan of Bush.

..and you said typical Clark supporters are republicans.

I don't know about you, but I don't want fans of Bush determining the Democratic nominee.

ANY candidate can win the presidency with nothing but the votes of registered Democrats. C'mon... try.

And you post on a political board?

Anyway, If he said he's been a fan of Bush but was leaning Dean - that would be ok?

Go tell these folks you don't want their vote:

http://atlblogs.com/republicansfordean/

are being deliberately obtuse on the subject of Bush, Clark, Clark supporters and republicans. I feel it is a legitimate question.

1. You must know by now as you have been told countless times that the state of Arkansas does not require one to register with a party. Clark has voted for republicans in the past, but his conversion to the Democratic vote is over a decade strong.

His record in the military shows his ideological heart to have been with the Democratic party even longer with his efforts to improve housing, healthcare, education and standard of living for those in his care. He also brought some large operations in Texas to a grinding halt to protect some turtles, much to the displeasure of his superiors. That was back in the late eighties I believe. He also fought hard to expand day care, domestic violence and continued education opportunities for his troops. Yep, a regular Newt Gingrich there.

2. You must know by now as you have been told countless times that in the one republican fundraiser at which Clark appeared his apparent praise of the Bush administration was
A. in the context of the Afgan conflict
B. accompanied by some intense critisizm of the same administration.

3. You assert that typical Clark supporters are disgruntled republicans - baseless crap that you cannot substantiate because it has no more basis in fact than the latest "Elvis found in Mars biodome" story.

4. You then assert that Clark supporters are fans of Bush. More baseless crap belonging in the catagory with #3 but also totally devoid of any scrap, wisp, molecule, fiber or hint of logic.

because he felt that protests were aimed not only at the war, but at the troops as well.

A very good detailing of Clark's views are in the Waiting for the General article by Elizabeth Drew that appeared in the NY Review of Books in November. There was a thread about it a while back and it was also cited in a thread just yesterday. It also totally debunks all this crap about Shelton and Cohen. In fact, Drew reports that Clark was treated "badly" and "cruelly."

Reporting for DUTY...SIR!

pro-choice activist, former community organizer, out and proud gay man checking in here, too. Go Clark!

who's not willing to move our party any further to the right just to win an election (not that Clark would win, he has some HUGE negatives). Clark? No thank you. I'd rather vote Green or Socialist.

from a life long democrat who's not willing to move our party any further to the left just to appease a loud minority.

Are you a kucinich supporter?

You don't sound like a Dean supporter because Dean is to the right.

could beat Bush. Right now I'm torn between Dean and Kerry, leaning toward Dean. Neither is my dream candidate but both are acceptable. I can't vote for Clark because I am certain that if Clark gets the nomination it will have the effect of bringing more republicans into the party which will result in an over all shift to the right. Dean , although a centrist, has the support of many on the left and nearly no one on the right.

http://atlblogs.com/republicansfordean/

Documented Republicans for Dean.

Maybe republicans for Clark don't need their own web site. Just for fun though, click on www.republicansforclark.com .

No one has ever denied Clark would bring a wide variety of voters into the democratic camp.

But bowens denied Dean would, saying:

I can't vote for Clark because I am certain that if Clark gets the nomination it will have the effect of bringing more republicans into the party which will result in an over all shift to the right. Dean , although a centrist, has the support of many on the left and nearly no one on the right.

I showed him a link that refuted his claim.

So your reply above literally added nothing.

sure had the effect of moving the Republican party to the left, didn't they.:eyes:

Hello.

I am sitting here at work bored to death. Fortunately a co-worker directed me to this forum and now I have a place to rant!

I admit I am new to the boards and haven't had a chance to truly read everyone's opinion, but from what I have read so far I see a recurrence of the "Clark is a Republican in Democrat clothes" theme.

As a student at West Point and a Rhodes Scholar, Clark has been taught to unite. As a general, Clark has been trained to unite. As a commander of NATO, Clark has been trained to unite.

I don't necessarily think that a Democratic President of the US needs to agree with the far left any more than he should agree with the true moderates. I think a President should be able to share a vision with both, which I think Clark is able to do. I think Clark's vision in trying to create a united-world foreign policy by stressing the value of NATO, the UN, and other genuine 'coalitions' is what we should have been doing all along.

America for too long has promoted our agenda over the rest of the world's. Clark's abilities to unite foreign factions during the war in Kosovo is evidence to me that he is a leader willing and able to unite differing factions and still please them all.

Right now we have a multi-headed hydra trying to promote the Democratic values. What I feel we need is a united front. What I think we need is Wes Clark.

Thanks for reading!

Seth

No. Clark isn't far-right. He's further left than Howard Dean (positions-wise.)

Unfortunately, Democrats have something in common with Republicans - we both have our extremists.

You can see ours in the daily conspiratorial-green-socialist-purity agenda some here apply to Wesley Clark.

http://www.liberalresurgent.com/mooreclark.mp3

Michael Moore on the far left's attitude of Wesley Clark.

Great first post, any more like you out there? Welcome aboard.


retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

<standing and appluading> :yourock:

Nice post. I hope you are bored at work more often!

But anyway, the poster (bowens43)said he'd rather vote green or socialist than vote for Clark.

I just gave my blessing for him to do so.

I intend to stay and forge the party into a weapon with which to smash the Bourgeoisie. :-)

I'm willing to fight in the trenches for my candidate, but I will be there for the Dem nominee.

I'll take my ball and go home if you pick "that" guy, boy that'll teach us.....ALL of us.


” JAFO”

Just think if more faux dems vote green or socialist, then we can just let the republicans establish a monarchy. There are two more Bush brothers to go!

wouldn"t that be peachy.


retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

The Bush twins could run together as co presidents or something.

Let's just all get mad and go home if our guy doesn't win. That will be very constructive.

I don't think he moves the party to the right.

Then again, I also like Dean and Kucinich. I have no idea who I'll be voting for in my primary.

He is a humane man with a broad world view who has helped relieve the suffering of many. He's beloved for what he did in Kosovo.

Wouldn't it be nice to have the nations of the world be on our side again?

I don't agree with your statement, but even if Clark is, as you say, a disgruntled republican - what's wrong with that? Wouldn't you consider a disgruntled republican as someone who has seen the light of what the republican party has come to stand for. Enlightenment may lead a person to realize they are more aligned with our party's ideology.

In my little world (Long Island NY) the overwhelming majority are republicans. If you wanted to keep your job you had to do campaigning for republicans, etc. No one could follow you into the ballot booth but the republican influence here carried over into that booth. We've recently elected a democratic US congressman (Tim Bishop)over an incumbent republican (Felix Grucci). We just elected Steve Levy (democrat)as county executive(a long held republican spot). The political landscape is changing here as people wake up.

My sisters boyfriend was a heavy duty republican who voted for Bush and is now thoroughly disgusted with Bush and the Republican party and is voting for Wes Clark. A friend of mine was a moderate republican and is disgusted with Bush and is voting for Clark. My sister and I are flaming liberals and are voting for Clark. Why not say welcome to these disgruntled republicans and recognize that some candidates (Clark for one)truly can be uniters?!

As someone posted on another thread:
Do you know anyone who didn't vote for Bush in 2000 who will now be voting for Bush in 2004? NO
Do you know anyone who voted for Bush in 2000 who won't be voting for him in 2004? YES

BTW, Clark is NOT a disgruntled republican and you stated nothing to substantiate that he is.

I must be the oddest Republican who ever lived. I marched in the first and subsequent gay rights marches in Manhattan, and I'm not even gay. I marched for women's rights and civil rights, and against the Viet Nam War and apartheid. I founded one of the first women's centers of the 1970s and offered abortion counseling BEFORE Roe v. Wade. I've worked on more Dem camapaigns than many DUers have years on earth. I am the fucking DEMOCRATIC BASE.

On edit: Not yelling at you, wyldwolf. At that person who is invisible to me.

They're not allowed in the Republican party any longer so they're looking for a home.

Lots of people didn't know how bad Bush was going to be. Heck, i didn't know how bad Bush was going to be.

Moderate Republicans aren't bad or anti-democratic. They do see a role for government though it may be smaller than liberals would see. And, they're secular in their politics and think religion should stay out of government. They're also pretty "liberal" in their belief in social policies.

Anyway, they're closer to centrist but they're not BAD.

They're just not as vocal as the fanatics. (who have taken control of the party) It's the reason I switched, because I feel the Dems are closer to the center now. (that and Bush, REALLY, REALLY pissed me off)

Perhaps you first met me in the streets of New Haven, during the Black Panther trials. Or maybe it was later, at Kent State. Did you miss that one? Then perhaps it was when myself and thousands like me stood at the forefront of the movements to give women equality, or to give gay and lesbian men and women the courage to step out, knowing they had support in the "conventional" world.

I support General Wesley Clark for President, and your post denigrates everything I and thousands of others in this campaign stand for.

. . .major Clark supporter. No Republican here!

Your insinuation that typical Clark supporters are Republicans is not based on any facts. I know you despise Clark. That is your opinion. Many of us are very liberal and support Clark and don't deserve your insinuations that we are not Democrats or progressives. Maybe if you asked us, we could explain why we support him. I support him because I think he will act the most left of any of the Dem candidates that are likely to get elected. Plus, I think he can win and will not take us into insane wars.

My nephew is in the US Air Force today. My brother and I both served in the Army during Vietnam. My aunt spent 23 years in the Air Force. My dad (her brother) served during Korea. My grandfather (3rdGenDem) was in the Third Infantry Division during WWI and with the Canadians and, later, with the Americans in WWII.
G'grandpa Seaman came from Canada to serve in the Spanish-American War and G2Grandpa Garrett (1stGenDem) was with the CSA at the fall of Fort Donelson in 1862 and spent three years as a POW. I'm also related to Ulysses S Grant, who captured said Fort Donelson.
Not one of us has ever been drafted. I suspect I am a sucker for a military uniform (call me old-fashioned), yes, but I'm tired of explaining why Democrats are perfectly fine, patriotic Americans and I'd kind of like to let Wesley Clark do my talking for me.
Dean just doesn't do a thing for me. I want Clark for President.
John
I served under Richard Nixon. I'd like a Commander-in-Chief I could be proud of, too.

Real Democrats support Clark.

Clark didn't even know he was a Democrat until three months ago, before that he was a cheer leader the current administration. Real Democrats understand that you don't go from being a supporter of the most vile Republican administrations and presidents to a Democrat over night.

Clark's been voting for Dems for over a decade. He's more liberal than Dean. He's pro-choice, pro-affirmative action, pro-gay rights, pro-gun control, etc. etc. etc.

Honestly - if the BEST argument against him is that he voted for a Republican president in the past (republicans who won pretty big, btw), then I feel confident in his chances for success.

Ronald R.(2xs)& Bush #1. So did the majority of the nation.
I also voted for Bill Clinton (2xs) and Gore. So did the majority of the nation. Hell, I might as well admit it. I also voted for Nixon! So did the majority of the nation!
I regretted voting for Nixon before Whitewater started. I regretted voting for Ronald early in his second term. I also regretted voting for Bush and was the first in my family to like Bill Clinton. He's why I turned Democrat. I can say I was never a Republican...I just liked the individual candidates. But I was SNOWED! I guess I didn't pay attention to the issues. Neither does the majority of the nation!
But now I am all grown up and I would never ever vote for a Republican again. I am a DEMOCRAT...and so is Clark. I'm just as good a Democrat as all those who were smart enough to vote so all their life. Me bad!

...but we all knew that already.

Prove this: Clark didn't even know he was a Democrat until three months ago,

and this:

you don't go from being a supporter of the most vile Republican administrations and presidents to a Democrat over night.

Do you keep IGNORING his voting record over the last 12 years?

It is inconvenient for your theories so you cast out that fact.

THAT is sign of conservativism.

Do not allow your thinking to be limited to that which lies within the very narrow confines that your enemy defines for you. The majority of human beings are a mixture of liberal, conservative, etc. To have your thoughts set in these tiny boundries of "black v white," or "right v left," or "right v wrong," is not helpful in the complexe set of circumstances we face today! ALWAYS ALLOW FOR PEOPLE TO GROW AND TO CHANGE!!! I doubt Wesley Clark is the same today as he was in 1968. Good. Look at Bush -- he's just the same! Get it? That which is rigid snaps under pressure.

Clark doesn't have voting records. Voting records are when one can establish that someone voted for something or not, for example Kucinich voted against IWR, kerry voted for it, that is on their voting records. Presidential elections are secret ballot votes. There is absolutely no record of anyone's presidential votes. The fact that Clark supporters feel the need to label these non-verifiable tidbits as a voting record serves only to underscore Clark's lack of political experience and lack of any sort of contribution to the Democratic party.

A history of what and who one has voted for.

My voting record (presidential)

Dukakis
Clinton
Clinton
Gore

Something that is in plentiful supply here.

Oh, I get it. One who supports your candidate. Real believers in democracy believe in allowing each voter to decide which candidate they support. I believe that many who have converted from the Republican party are more liberal than the lifelong Democrats. Clark is a liberal. Look at his positions.

But what about the other 50 million?

;)

who said they were now voting for Dean.

friends calling them bush li.....oops! read too fast, sorry!



retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book