End It Now - James Zogby

End It Now

APRIL 24, 2008

JAMES ZOGBY

<snip>

Dragging it out any longer only serves to indulge the Clintons' narcissism, while damaging the Democratic party's chances for victory in November. A few observations:

First: The numbers are clear: Clinton cannot surpass Obama's elected delegate total in the contests that remain. It is not unlike a fifty-two lap motor race. In the first forty-three laps, Obama has passed her twice, and built up a lead that is insurmountable. Now, in the midst of the 44th lap, it only appears to be close, but it is not. The only way she could possibly win is either by changing the rules of the game in Michigan and Florida, or convincing a substantial number of superdelegates to cast their ballots for her -- overturning the results of the elections to date. Either of these two scenarios would cause a devastating upheaval within the party, bringing on what I call a "1968 moment."

Second: There is no doubt that the Democratic base has been energized by this election. The record number of voters, volunteers, and contributors point to this fact. But, at the same time, it is important to acknowledge that real damage is occurring within the Democratic constituency. Polls that show a growing fracture within the Democratic coalition should be read as cautionary signs to be heeded. Those Beltway pundits and party regulars who say "Don't worry, after the convention, Democrats will come together" are out of touch with the real damage that has been done in the minds of voters on both sides of the divide.

<snip>

Third: There is no doubt that Senator Clinton is a talented and an extraordinarily intelligent person. Her tragic flaw is her belief that only she is capable of leading. It is this that has caused her to engage in an effort to demean her opponent and engage in the kind of campaign that she once decried as "the politics of personal destruction." It is this that I call her narcissism, and the degree to which it has damaged not only the Democratic chances in November, but also her reputation -- defines the pathological self-destruction that so often follows from narcissistic behavior

<snip>

But this has not been the case. Given the behavior of the Clinton campaign to date, and the expectation this behavior will continue, I believe that prolonging this agony will only create deeper division. For this reason, it should end now. .....more....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-zogby/end-it-now_b_98265.html?view=print

Although Zogby is in a much better position that us to gage the sentiments of the voters, I concur that prolonging the primary is doing great damage to our chances in November. The only reason Clinton is doing this I believe is to mortally wound Obama so she can have another shot in 2012 -- and make a note -- if Obama loses Clinton would then be all over it with 'I told you so.'

people like us in Oregon who haven't even voiced their opinion? I'm sorry, but that is crossing the line.

This is supposed to be a democracy -- we're in Oregon, Mr. Zogby, and YOU are NOT my representative.

Yours truly,

Al

The other states remaining would hold their primaries just as they normally would.

Remember 2004? By the time the primaries got to my state (Texas) we knew the nominee was going to be Kerry. Everyone else had dropped out. But we still held our primary, as did every other state.

Same thing.

Will everyone please try to GET THAT?

People believe it, so it must be true! Right? Right?!?

(:sarcasm:)

Your point can't be made often enough, and I wish that it were grasped by more people.

I'm in Montana, dead last in the process. I'm all for ending this insanity.

And who said Hillary had a chance in Oregon?...:)

Last I looked, we were a left leaning state....Hillary does not represent our interests...

Like when John Edwards dropped out of the race before the Minnesota caucuses.... How DARE he cut off my voting rights!

... so Zogby isn't promoting anything that Sen. Clinton, herself, hasn't championed.

That's the way it works. Was John Edwards cutting off the voting rights of numerous states when he withdrew? Of course he wasn't. The way it works is that when a candidate no longer has a chance they should withdraw. The subsequent primaries will still be held and no voting rights will be cut off.

after Kerry clinched the nomination before all the primaries were completed? Nobody was crying when Bill clinched the nomination before all the primaries in 92. This race is every bit as decided as either of those contests (barring shenanigans and backroom politicking) and people are screaming as if they are not being allowed to participate in the GE!

In 2004, John Kerry was the presumptive nominee with 20 states left that had not yet voted. Those voters in those 20 states were NOT disenfranchised. They all still voted. This year there are seven states and two territories who have yet to vote. THEY CAN ALL STILL VOTE IF CLINTON DROPS OUT.

Now if you want to argue that it would be more meaningful to you to have two candidates left to choose between, fine. But this business about being disenfranchised voters -- the same crap that FL and MI party heads have been spewing -- is utter codswallop.

I really want this farce to be over NOW. We can still vote in May, but Hillary needs to suspend her campaign to save the party, and the nation.

and it would mean as much as it would if Hillary stayed in the race--as much as every post Wisconsin contest.

the only difference is, Hillary would leave on a high note,rather than a crushing defeat.

What's the big deal? It won't make much difference either way, will it?

you'd be telling obama to stay in?

And ALL of those other contests where a presumptive nominee emerged early, the right to vote was lost in all those states that came after?

What a ludicrous statement.

You can vote to your hearts content all the way to PR.

As long as it's not Edwards or Dodd or Kucinich, or Biden or Richardson. Otherwise, he have the right to vote in this election.

states made a difference with Kerry? Most states still voted - and these
remaining will too - it just won't make any difference - just like
it almost always is !

mild, but good.

I don't know why she wants to be president anyhow? Does she miss the gourmet food in the WH?

Money, sex, and power. When someone is "determined" or "ruthless" it usually comes down to one of these three.

You figure out which it is in this case.

P.S. It's no accident that monastic orders require their members to take vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience.

nunnery so he/she will be motivated by compassion, altruism, and selfless endeavors? Sorry, I find that quite illogical.

Many people choose the simple path and live within the framework you suggest without exterior forces, religious or otherwise. They seek enlightenment without the three devilish items you suggest.

Call me Al,

I had remotely said what you twisted my words into -- but then you wouldn't have been able to make a totally stupid remark about it.

Respectfully,

Audio Al (Massachusetts native)

"Narcissistic" is as far as he can go - but we know he means "sociopathic."

Dchill, where and when did you get your psychiatric degree?

Wasn't talking to you. I have no degree, but I've done me some audio!

P.S. Ugly and fruitless are in the eye of the beholder.

...some of Hillary's behaviors could be defined as sociopathic.

For God's sakes, look at the ease with which she lied about being under
sniper fire in Bosnia. Look at the video. She absolutely relished telling
those lies, and it was an effortless, easy-breezy exercise in doing so.

She knew she was lying. That's what Hillary Clinton looks like when
she's lying profusely.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

I am not going there anymore.

Respectfully,

Call me Al --

I don't know about that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5664051

look at his polling. A true pollster does not play favorites. He is certainly diminished in my estimation. If he said this about Obama I would feel the same way.

he's a super delegate..

... as James Zogby in his first interview had his brother talking about the election and the polls, etc. You could tell that they both feel a bit like Hillary's causing a lot of trouble for the Democrats in a battle they don't see her winning by the numbers.

It was interesting that when they were just showing one on one matches, McCain is significantly ahead, and Obama is tied with him at 45% with a lot of "on the side or not sure votes" in both polls.

When candidates like Libertarian candidate Bob Barr, Alan Keyes, and Ralph Nader are added, then Hillary still is losing, but Obama is actually WINNING in that mix! Obviously the core Democrats stay home a lot more with Obama, and don't get weaned off onto third parties as either Hillary or McCain will have happen.

:shrug:

It sounds like he might cover this issue there if he's got an article released today on the same day.

Might be worth it if some people can get through a call to his call in show and ask him a good pointed question on this of our viewpoints and concern here for an international audience to hear!

http://www.linktv.org/programs/viewpoint

... the Arab-American Insititute.

Google is your friend. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Zogby

... two years ago when he unceremoniously shut down that committee meeting that was reviewing the Patriot Act...

Watch this youtube and see how Zogby very appropriately sums ups Sensenbrenner's abominable actions at the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY_OPcGBSrI

Who tried to cover up the GOP Coingate scandal in Ohio.

TWO levels of indirect guilt by association! TYPICAL from the Clinton camp I guess!

From:

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060528/NEWS08/605280346

:kick:

(NT)

Although, come to think of it, why should your grammar be correct if your facts aren't?

against poor St Hillary

Are you trying to imply that your choice is superior to his?

Traitors n/t

There is something seriously wrong with the world when this sort of sentiment becomes acceptable.


Maybe the party NEEDS to be split in to two.

it will render both halves powerless, not that many seem to care anymore

..the people's interests. The reason why this is getting so darned ugly is that the DLC (represented by Clinton) has no limits on how low they will go.

  The answer is send the DLC packing BACK to the republican party.

PB

:thumbsup:

But if we don't get rid of it, this party will die, just like the challenge a real cancer patient faces!

Once people caught on it was inevitable.

Maybe her "wing" of the party should form their own. Clinton's values in the way she conducts herself reflect poorly on the rest of us and are more akin to republican right wing fanatics.

She is pandering to them by the way...in a DEMOCRATIC primary. She has disavowed Move On, an organization that was founded for the purpose of assisting the Clintons! She has brought religion into the mix with the Rev.Wright flap, she has lied (Bosnia/nafta/colombia)...

This is NOT reflective of the democratic party that I have been proud to belong to for all of these years.

I'm 50 and a female and white!

It is only for Clinton to decide.

is that Hillary will not withdraw. SHE CANNOT WIN. All she is doing now is making this about her and not policies. She and Bill have created lifelong "enemies" among democratic party supporters by their actions.

SHE is the problem. SHE is what 's wrong right now... the sentiment that she should continue a losing race is what is insane. Her supporters who will not accept this reality is what is insane.

I voted for Bill... why can't you and other HRC supporters recognize that YOU need to take one for the team and move on?

And the nearly-complete destruction of *MY* party that
the DLCers caused.

See ya!

Tesha

...as noted by their Southern Strategy in Pennsylvania. The Progressive wing of the party is repelled by her tactics, while the New Dixiecrats love it. We are split. The party is no longer cohesive.

PB

The party's not just going to magically pull back together. There's a lot of hatred on both sides. I don't really see any easy way to heal that. We've probably lost the White house and the Supreme court because of it.

When a plane is flying over the ocean, it will eventually pass what's known as the "point of no return." If there is a problem of some kind, it can't go back, usually because it's destination is closer or it doesn't have enough fuel to retrace it's steps.

Hillary may have done a version of that already in this race. She may realize, at some level, that it's her entire political career is on the line. She has created so much strife and hard feeling in this race that there may be no prospect of another race in 2012 or 2016. A lot of people who encouraged her to run when she started this enterprise may no longer be there. If she backs down now, the big money boys who donated to her early on will be looking at someone else. She may never get out of the gate in 2012, if there were a chance to run.

So, the theory that she's doing this to ruin Obama and run again in 2012 isn't plausible. Also, the GOP isn't stupid. They know that if McVeigh gets in, he will be a one-termer. Look for them to name his replacement as VP -- meaning the presumptive heir will get to basically campaign non-stop for four years at taxpayer expense. It's even possible that McVeigh won't last a full term, propelling the VP into the top job, and forcing the Dems to run against an incumbent.

In the 1500s, Herman Cortez invaded Mexico. When he got there, he ordered his men to burn the boats, so they would have to prevail or die, as they'd have no way to escape.

I think that when she went negative with the Osama card and the race card, the Rev. Wright thing, and flag-pin fiasco, Hillary pretty much "burned the boats." There is no going back. If she doesn't prevail, it's quite possible her career is over. She could even lose the NY Senate seat to a well-groomed likable opponent. She is a carpet bagger in NY and she ain't no Ted Kennedy. She is vulnerable.

At the very least, I think her turning back now would be the end of her presidential ambitions. She has passed the point of no return.

:crazy:

:rofl:

I feel bad for Hillary... she's smart, she's done a lot of good in her political life, and she was the presumptive nominee for a long time. This must be awful for her. And I think you're probably right about the point of no return--not only is this, in all likelihood, her one shot at the presidency (and I think she would be a very good president), it's maybe the last really good shot at the presidency for a woman for a while, so she has that burden to carry as well. Dropping out would be the end of so much.

(That's an interesting analogy about the burning of the boats. I didn't know that phrase came from an actual event.)

http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe07.html

Diagnostic Criteria

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4. requires excessive admiration
5. has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6. is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7. lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8. is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

that is a damning list!

Should it be its own thread?


:shrug:

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner ladies and gentlemen; the lady wins a Kewpie doll.

I agree very much with Zogby's finding here:

Second: There is no doubt that the Democratic base has been energized by this election. The record number of voters, volunteers, and contributors point to this fact. But, at the same time, it is important to acknowledge that real damage is occurring within the Democratic constituency. Polls that show a growing fracture within the Democratic coalition should be read as cautionary signs to be heeded. Those Beltway pundits and party regulars who say "Don't worry, after the convention, Democrats will come together" are out of touch with the real damage that has been done in the minds of voters on both sides of the divide.

This has gone on too long, and should end now. Former President Clinton has argued that all the states should be given a chance to vote. They should have that chance. And, if this campaign were focused on issues and a debate over competing visions of leadership, I would say, "Let it continue."

But this has not been the case. Given the behavior of the Clinton campaign to date, and the expectation this behavior will continue, I believe that prolonging this agony will only create deeper division. For this reason, it should end now.

but 2025 is referring to the number of delegates, not a year.

I've never seen a single fact that contradicts that poster's statement. Whoever gets to 2025 delegates first wins the nomination.

What about that statement isn't true?

It's used by the Hillary crowd to say that the game isn't over until someone has 2025 officially in their column. On one hand, if someone got 2025 tomorrow by some process, then the game would be over. But, on the other hand, there's a point at which you can reasonably say that it's no longer realistically possible for one person to get there.

In a sports event, it isn't over until the last out or the buzzer sounds, but there is no downside to continuing the game until the last second. In this case, once it's apparent that one person will not get to 2025 -- without causing serious damage to the party and the party's chances in November -- then demanding that the battle continue until the bitter end is self-defeating.

Even in a sporting event, however, a good coach or manager knows when the game is out of reach -- even though it's not over -- and he begins to pull his key players to avoid injury or to rest them for another game.

Hillary needs to seriously examine the possibility she is damaging not only the party, but her own political future. She may be flushing that down the toilet by staying in and wounding the party and its chances in November.

So -- just chanting the 2025 number is misleading.

Thanks for a good explanation!

cackle cackle cackle

....or give in to my serious case of heebiejeebies. :rofl: :scared:

should give her the ole heave ho if they want change from the policies of the past. I have no doubt that PA was rigged by the political machine there. "Bitter" was used as the resounding reason so that the cheating could be validated. Bush did this in 2004. Unfortunately for Clinton supporters, they don't see what she's doing, ripping the party apart in an act of vengence or they don't care that she's doing this. She has lost all credibility. Does she really think that people like me would get her support in 2012. I've already seen her. She voted with the Republicans on key issues like the war, bankruptcy. She could never get my vote... ever. And I'm not alone.

and he's certainly an enabler of GOP dirty tricks.

1) Clinton, the netroot's bete noire
2) Obama, the netroot's progressive savior

McLame will continue the GOP consolidation of power, leading to either the total gutting of our electoral process (national Diebolding), or a declaration of perpetual martial law.

very accurate

She's in it to feed her undeserved ego.

only the lies she is telling herself and her believers so that she gets money from them.
I have come to believe she is only attempting to get more funds from her believers now.
She has to know that she really has no chance at it now.

let obama and clinton quit and let john edwards accept the nom.

Even if she had lost in PA

http://www.surveyusa.com/index.php/2008/04/22/national-poll-regardless-of-pa-outcome-clinton-should-stay-in-race/

Now the MSM is reporting that HRC and McInsane are joining up to try to defeat Obama in NC.

This is truly SICK. :puke:

I had a lot of respect for them both at one time in my life. I've met both, campaigned for both, and shared encouraging words with both.

I also have had my hopes and expectations of each dashed -- no, crushed. Crushed by promises never delivered upon, and dragged down the low roads they've taken to achieve their own selfish ends and fuel their own egos.

It is time for them both to kindly fade away into the sunset.

Because they feel like they OWN the Democratic Party and have a birthright to drive its direction, and yet both of them seem drunk with power behind the wheel.

Because they have proven that neither has anything left to offer but an legacy of continued bitter division and a landscape of ego-driven scorched earth.

Because it is time for new blood, new ideas, and new hope for a better America -- and a changed tomorrow.

For the love of all that is sacred and ethical and good for America, would you Clintons just please go away and let our nation -- our beloved America -- move forward?

PLEASE. I'm begging you.

Zogby

he's alright but I get tired... ya know?

shit or get off the pot

either MAKE A DIFFERENCE and fight WITH THE PEOPLE

or shut the fuck up

:rofl: :wtf:

to see Zogby weighing in on the race. I thought top pollsters usually remain non-partisan? Doesn't this undermine his neutrality and put in question his polls?

And, yes, Zogby's polls are a well-worn joke this primary season.

John is the pollster. James founded the Arab American Institute.

1968 will prevail again.

This is the media story, now. None of that "Comeback Kid" bullshit.

Rather than trying to tear our candidate down, we must start defending him against GOP style attacks. We must let them know that we will not accept them tying Obama to Wright and acting as though he shares the same brain as him...we all are individuals and think independently for ourselves, this is the case whether you are black, white, brown, red, or yellow. We must hold Obama accountable for his actions and what he says, but not for everyone he knows...that is unfair and the same standards are not applied to the other candidates proportionately. McCain is not held strongly to Hagee, Robertson, his mafia affiliation which his father in law is a part of and his special interest buddies, Hillary and Bill are not being tied strongly to their child molesting preacher Rev. William Procanick or the group of religious elitist group known as "the Family", she is not being tied to Norman Hu, Peter Paul and the lobbyist the Clintons are strongly tied too such as Janice Enright, Harold Ickes, and many others, several of which are campaign aides in her campaign.

The truth being stated, the media are disproportionately attacking Obama with this slime, known as guilt by association, Obama has clearly stated where he stands and what he believes, either they are saying he is a bald face liar or using this to damage him knowing that they can trigger some kind of gut fear among white voters, that will entertain the notion that just maybe something is wrong with this BLACK man, maybe he is dishonest and harbors anti white sentiments. Talk about paranoia, wake up people...a lot of white people are supporting him, many of which work with him and know him much more personally than the sound bites and the media spin we hear...I just do not believe this man is any less honest than the other candidates, nor does he have any more baggage than the others, in fact I believe all said and done...he has much less.

If you fall for the swiftboat style attacks, bittergates, wrightgates, blackgates; Shame on you for being so shallow minded, look hard at this and you will clearly see why these attacks are taking place so strongly, even from his so called fellow Democrat, the power that has held Washington for decades has zero intention of letting go of their control of Washington and it's power to write its own rules in their favor, they do not want a Government for the people and by the people, they want exactly what we have now...how is it working out for you? For my family it is scary and getting worse. My vote is for Obama because we need change, not token campaign promises of those who are willing participants in the powers that be in Washington, we need someone that has not conformed or aligned with them...our best hope in the remaining candidates is Obama and he brings to the table a new generation of Democrats...the young voters, that we will need going forward to be successful and have a strong party that can turn things around and get meaningful things done for our families and future generations.

Whether any of us like it or not, Obama is almost guaranteed to be the nominee facing McCain, bar some kind of insider magic which would truly devastate the party if not completely dismantle it. We need to get behind him now and fight the true fight, not Obama vs Clinton, but Obama vs McCain...make no mistake...our country can't afford McCain as President, he is not much better if any than Bush and each of you know all to well how that has worked out for America.

Fellow Democrats and Independents, the outcome is in your hands, either we can stand together and succeed or we can continue to tear each other down, divide ourselves and fall victim to our own stupidity and suffer the consequences for decades, just as we will suffer for the Bush years of damage...it will not be a quick fix..sorry to bare the bad news but that is fact. Peace!

he used a number of the 'catch words' misogynists use. his article 'explains' what the problem is with Hillary.

"Clinton's narcissism; Her tragic flaw; defines the pathological self-destruction that so often follows from narcissistic behavior; Indecision only serves to enable bad behavior. It is time for us to either demand that the behavior change, or act to end this now."

---------------

what a bad girl she is. thankfully Zogby 'explains' it all to us as her fatal flaw of narcissistic behavior.


all this time I have held making an opinion on Zogby and his polls. after this article of his I know.

up yours Zogby

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

:eyes:

They are brothers! Though when John was on James Zogby's show last night, though John didn't "pump" Obama as his choice, he showed numbers that really called into question Hillary's motivation for prolonging this battle.

:applause: !!!!