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Excuse me, does Senator Clinton know what a 'Lincoln-Douglas' debate IS?

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RichardRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 05:55 PM
Original message
Excuse me, does Senator Clinton know what a 'Lincoln-Douglas' debate IS?
So I'm a geek, always have been, probably always will be. Yes, I was actually on a debate team, and I actually participated in 'Lincoln-Douglas' style debates. It's a very formal framework, and I really doubt it's what Senator Clinton meant.


Lincoln-Douglas debate, known by some previous debaters as value debate because it is about morals, human rights, and philosophy, and called Lincoln-Douglas, LD debate, or simply, LD in slang, is a style of one-on-one debate practiced in National Forensic League competitions, and widely used in related debate leagues such as the National Catholic Forensic League, National Educational Debate Association, the National Christian Forensics and Communication Association, and their related regional organizations. The Lincoln-Douglas Debate format is named for the 1858 Lincoln-Douglas Debates between Abraham Lincoln and Stephen A. Douglas. The reason LD debate is named after Lincoln and Douglas is because their debates were centered around slavery and the morals, values, and logic behind it. Unlike policy debate, Lincoln Douglas does not require vast amounts of statistics or other empirical data. LD is a logical debate divided into a central Value that the debater claims his case achieves, a value criterion (way to achieve the Value), and commonly 2-4 logically developed contentions that back the value and criterion.


Definition of Lincoln-Douglas Debate
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livetohike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. She knows it all - just ask her
:-). She studied hard at Wellesley when she wasn't campaigning for Barry Goldwater.
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lisa58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. is that when she threw her bookbag against the wall?
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lisa58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. I don't know if she does, but I didn't...
...thanks for the post and if they did engage in such a debate - Obama would win.
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
4. It's where a tall, lanky, thoughtful candidate debates a short, stocky, aggressive one
And in the end, the tall, lanky one becomes president.
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C_U_L8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. hehehe... good one :-))))
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RichardRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Nice :-) n/t
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. That's funny
:rofl: :spray: :rofl:
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. If hilary keeps whining about it..Obama Team
should point this out..

"The Lincoln-Douglas Debate format is named for the 1858 Lincoln-Douglas Debates between Abraham Lincoln and Stephen A. Douglas. The reason LD debate is named after Lincoln and Douglas is because their debates were centered around slavery and the morals, values, and logic behind it."

Thanks for the enlightenment, RichardRay!
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RichardRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. I also like the part about...
"LD is a logical debate divided into a central Value that the debater claims his case achieves, a value criterion (way to achieve the Value), and commonly 2-4 logically developed contentions that back the value and criterion."


:think:

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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Superb! Thanks..
:think: Brilliant.
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
8. I participated in a few debates in High School
The primary debates held so far, well, they sure as hell don't follow any of the debate formats that I was taught.
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RichardRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. I also played rugby...
Edited on Sat Apr-26-08 06:37 PM by RichardRay
what's happened so far seems far more akin to that than anything I ever knew as 'debate' - except rugby players are more polite, and the officials care about the game...
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
9. It just means she's broke, in debt, and needs free media.
She can't draw a crowd by herself, either.
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msallied Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. another reason I think that Hillary's "viability" is a media-created farce
The turn-outs at her rallies are absolutely pitiful compared to Obama's.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
12. She hasn't raised enough cash to retire her debt
That's really what it's all about.
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BenDavid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
15. HRC knows what this type debate is. As she said, " no moderator
only us two standing there and debating......
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RichardRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Well, that's a one necessary (but hardly sufficient) element.... n/t
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gblady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. values.....
"value debate because it is about morals, human rights, and philosophy"

I know that Barack would win over Hillary in this type of debate....
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
31. Debating what?
The latest smear and gotcha Hillary's oppo team can funnel her way? I highly doubt she wants to debate anything involving morality since a good place to start would be that illegal and immoral war she voted for. Debate slavery? That taps a seam of irony to rich to believe. Obama is smart to let her stew in her own juices.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
17. She doesn't write the talking points, she just pimps them.
She's got people to do that stuff.
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monmouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
18. Sorry Hilly, Barack is preparing for his debate with McCain....n/t
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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
21. Uh, no.......it is about style.... ie not being moderated.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
22. Prolly not.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
23. HRC doesn't even know what morals are. Nevermind the rest n/t
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cbayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
24. Perhaps she is referring to the format.
From you link:

"Format

LD debate follows the basic time schedule 6-3-7-3-4-6-3, commonly remembered as a jingle or phone number. Each debater gets 13 minutes of speaking time, and rounds take approximately 45 minutes, when all is said and done. Each debater receives 3-5 minutes of preparation time (prep time) to use between speeches however they like. 3 minutes was the NFL rule until mid-way through the 2006-2007 season, when 4 minutes became official and was adopted by most but not all local tournaments. Some very large and prominent tournaments choose to give debaters 5 minutes."
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1776Forever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
25. Obama has all ready won - Why should he debate Clinton?
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noel711 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
26. But in actuality.. when Douglas and LIncoln 'debated'...
it wasn't really a standard 'debate.'

They spoke for at least an hour on topic.

Then the opponant got an hour to rebut.

Then that opponant got an hour on another topic.

Then the first speaker got to rebut.

There were no questions from the audience.

This procedure took hours... much too long for the
contemporary American audience.

And there was no moderator, which I believe is what Clinton wants.

Douglas was an old style politician, well known, well respected,
and was considered a 'shoe-in.'

LIncoln was nominated at the first convention of the infant
'repubican' party... because he had built a reputation as an
inspiring orator, not because he was a typical politician.
In fact, he had less legislative experience than Obama.

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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
27. I had heard that term., "Lincoln-Douglas-style" debate, several time in the past,
but I had only the sketchiest knowledge of what it really meant. Thanks. That's all the more reason why Obama needs to go up against McCain, rather than Clinton. The BURNING (and highly moral) issue, is to put a Democrat in the white House THIS YEAR! 2012 (or perhaps 2016) may be far too late!

GO, Obama, GO!

pnorman
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groovytang Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
28. Hill went to Cornell, very well-educated little lady
of course she knows
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noel711 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Cornell? Where did that come from?
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Gore1FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Well...
Cornell's parents loved each other very much, and one day they decided they had enough love to share. Either that or the condom broke.

But what that has to do with Hillary, I am not sure.
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Sinistrous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Actually, she went to Wellesley College, outside of Boston.
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RichardRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. I believe that brother 'groovytang' may have set some sort of a record...
Does anyone know the shortest time it's ever taken someone to use all three of their daily posts, commit a couple of dozen drive by's and get TS'd?



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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
29. As I recall, Stephen Douglas wore a pantsuit and flagpin.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
35. Yikes. Obama would clean her clock in a debate like that.
The closest we've come was that CNN "compassion forum", in which Obama presented himself much better. He's obviously a deep thinker, whereas Hillary, well, she's good at memorizing facts.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
36. i have a few nfl pins/trophies myself
and always get a kick out of people thinking for a moment that "nfl" means football :evilgrin:, most implausible given my scrawny 5'7" build....

what passes for "debate" in the political realm bears little resemblance to nfl competitions, in part because political debates are judged to the standards of and on behalf of the least common denominator of the public, which typically seems to be about a 3rd grade level. nfl competitions try to reward actual logic and persuasiveness of argument, and very much punish slick insults of your opponents.


so when a political candidate talks about "debate" at all, let alone a particular style of debate, you'd do well to set aside your better-informed understandings and remember we're talking mass media politics here. whatever point she's trying to make be mentioning "lincoln-douglas", it probably has little to nothing to do with proposed format, and more likely it's just posturing to position herself on the moral high ground.
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RichardRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. We actually had NFL tee shirts made up...
Big letters on the back, little words over the pocket on the front. I want you to imaging an entire debate team cruising around with those tee shirts on - scary, I assure you!!

And you're right, I jumped straight to the formal idea of LD debate when I saw the original proposal. After that I just couldn't let it go. I'm certain Senator Clinto only meant a 1 on 1 format without moderators. If that's all she meant I think Senator Obama is tactically correct to turn her down. If she could be lured into a real LD format it would be worth watching, though.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. how i would love to see candidates forced into standard debate formats
strict time limits, the first speaker must present and actual affimative proposal on an actual issue and defend its merits, cross-examinations, etc.

and 3 real judges, not politico spinmeisters.

wouldn't THAT be something!!!
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morningglory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
39. How 'bout an old-fashioned Aaron Burr duel? Juuuuuust kidding. nt :)
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