Folks how does one counteract O'Reilly on Faux if your RW Relatives

don't want information about how O'Reilly lies?

I have to qualify that I've never watched Fox Network in my life. I don't know what O'Reilly says (even though I have cable...which I've turned off because C-Span, PBS and and the smattering of other news sources like CNBC and MSNBC were what I listened to in the old days. I have tuned them out because of the "propaganda" after Reagan bash a few weeks ago...do my only source of news is the "Intenet."

Have conversation with my Right Wing Brother tonight over my Dad that he's just put in a Nursing Home..

Conversation goes to politics and he says to me: "Why do you hate America? Why are you a Left Wing Commie Socialist..you are 'emotional' and don't know what's goin on in America.

I said: "Pleas go see Michael Moore's Movie, and come back and talk to me about who I am. I'm your sister how can you trash me telling me who I am when you don't seem to understand the difference between Socialists and Communists and you know I grew up in SC just like you did?"

He says: "Moore is a person who Hates America..and I won't go to see his trash because it's filled with lies."

I say: "How do you know what Moore is about. He's a 'Populist' like me and if you haven't seen the movie how can you criticize it?"

He says: "I don't need to see the movie because I know he's a piece of trash who hates America just like you."

I say: Okay...I will promise to watch Fox and O'Reilly for you for two weeks if you will just got see "Moore's Movie" and take your 15 year old son and discuss it afterwards with him and if you still thing after seeing it that Moore is 'Anti-American' and a Commie hating Anti-Americanist then we can discuss it.

He says: "No, I won't go see trash for you."

I say: "We've got to get over arguing about Black and White...If I'm willing to watch this O'Reilly person for you, then why won't you go see Moore's Movie?"

He says: "No, it's all trash. and you want me to be a Democrat but that party has not done a thing for me."

I say: "What do you mean Democratic Party has done nothing for you."

He Says: Name something, because they are all Socialists/Commies and want the Government to pay for everything.

I tried to name things our Dems have done...but he as a SC'linian says he didn't use the Government for anything...He burns and buries his trash from his house, he resents paying school taxes, he hates property taxes, because they take money out of his paycheck and he thinks "environmental regulation" doesn't matter because neither he nor his kids suffer from asthma or anything but ADD.. And, he blames the ADD on his wife who gave his kids Pizza and Coke from the time they were born.

:shrug: Are people like my brother worth worrying about? I don't know...but why do they blame the Democratic Party for their woe's when as I told my brother we have a Repug Government wall to wall and they aren't doing anything.

My brother said: "Give them time..they will fix it all now that they are in control."

I didn't even discuss Iraq Invasion with him. Why bother...I'm sick at how Bush/Chimp has caused CIVIL WAR in America... Brother against Sister/Sister against Brother and all relatives inbetween.

What's to become of us? :shrug:

issue for him?

excellent health care and paid extra to have it...but he's in his late 80's. He has Fed health (good stuff for those who could get it years ago) and Medicare + he could afford Medi-Gap Insurance.

Insurance was never a problem for him like it will be for our generations behind him.

F-9/11 comes out on dvd and invite them over.

there have been family differences through the years. I only deal with him because he's my only family member and now that my Dad is dying and my brother is in charge of his care (power of attorney for my Dad) that I even talk to him at all. I figured that I would try to become closer to him now that my Dad is dying.

but all he did was call me names and say that O'Reilly is someone I should listen to because I'm a Left Wing Commie.

I'm none of what he says...but he says it because someone named O'Reilly told him so.. No amount of confrontation about Bush/Chimp lies would persuade him because he says Dems are scum...so therefore I am..and because I'm a female I'm over-emotional. O'Reilly he says is who I should listen to because he would "wise me up."

Give me a break here...My brother is a "nut case" bue he's the Repug voter we've got to get to!

talk about tractor parts. no use in alienating family

political and challenged me about Clinton (whom he laughed at and called me "scum" for voting for and liking him. This has been going on for years but I've always turned the conversation to "tractor parts" (which he does love) but the next time he's at politics again.

I finally thought I'd fight back. Even though for years (to keep peace in the family, I've held my tongue) and he hits me with O'Reilly and I hit him back with...why don't you just go see Farenheit 9/11 and tell me what's wrong with it before you spout stuff about Fox and this O'Reilly that I've not seen.

I said...go see Moore's move and then come back at me so we can really discuss what we need to since it's just "you and me" now that Dad is dying, buddy.

He still refused. :shrug:

... I'm not going to try to confuse you with the facts."

A simple accusation of closed-mindedness is usually sufficient to get them unglued. Haters must engage with someone; without it, all that hate festers inside. It's a shame to watch one's relatives go through it, but it's quite common.

With people who are completely emotional about their ideological allegiance, the best tactic is to make them as emotionally uncomfortable as you can, and THEN simply draw them out with questions -- the way Socrates did it. It's almost like doing therapy when you do it right, but that's what hard-ass conservatives really want.

--bkl

is a Nazi. He could report you and have you put in jail or worse.

What would you do then? Just a wild idea.

Seriously, my sympathies. This is a tough problem.

Just tell your brother that the last time you checked we still can believe whatever we want and vote however we want in this country. You won't bother him with your political beliefs if he doesn't bother you with his. It's too bad, but this sounds like a zero tolerance situation.

Good luck! And don't let your bullyish brother push you around as a Dem. You don't have to fight. Just politely "Leave the field" as Carl Jung, the famous psychoanalyst advises. Politely withdraw from the discussion. Don't try to convert him, he sounds like a hard case. But you are entitled to your beliefs, and he must allow that, no matter how bullyish he may be. It's the law, and conservatives are supposed to respect that rule, right?

and leave my brother behind because "Can I truly be My Brother's Keeper" if he doesn't want to listen.

How many Jews in Germany had to leave their brothers and sisters because they wouldn't believe the NAZI's were out to destroy them?

How can one take responsibility for a family member when one has tried to use all "reason" through the years and yet they call you untrue names and characterize all discussion to their own ends.

You are correct...at some point "self survival" is more important than "family harmony." Because to have family "harmony" means a caving in of one's true principles and sense of danger.

This is very sad that we've come to this "Civil War" once more in America.

As a Southerner who would probably have left for the North rather than support the Confederates but who would have always had a heart for those who fought a cause for what they didn't know...this conflicts me to me core and heart. It's devastatin to be torn this way.

hope we all can heal. I'm bummed every day thinking about it. I used to be so proud of my country. We weren't a dictatorship, we weren't a banana republic. We weren't South Africa.

No more.

training for Reserves by 280 million dollars. They say their drills will have to stop in the next 6 months if it isn't restored. They account for 25 pct of the deaths in Iraq already. One of the training programs was Urban Combat like they're facing in Iraq.

The 8 hour workday...the 40 hour workweek, not making his children bust their asses in a factory, creating minimum wage?

Shall I go on?

Your brother is obviously drinking the Kool-Aid and likes it. The next time he hassles you about politics, I would just say, "I'm not talking to you about politics," and walk into another room.

If he follows you, I would tell him if he doesn't shut up, you're going to leave. If he STILL keeps it up, just walk out of the house and leave without a word.

If he's in your house, I would tell him to leave. This country is too messed up right now to have to deal with this crap. Especially from family.

FSC

the world from Faux which tells him that it's Government that causes all our ills and woes. I said: "It's the Corporations who are doing this to you!" He said you are a Commie..because all Commies hate corporations.

Yet, both I and my husband have worked for Large Corporations (Fortune 500) but he has been an independent Sales Person all his life. He thinks we don't know what we are talking about...when we do...having been part of it all!

You can't talk to these folks...I guess. But, he's not stupid. What if he's the REAL AMERICA we are UP AGAINST! GEEZE...I hate to think. And, my blood is his blood but we could be from different Planets the way he talks. :-(

Libertarian candidate, and at least it will be one less vote for Bushit

PS so sorry to hear about your Dad :hug:

....they are beyond any reason or logic....completely assimilated...they chose to wholeheartedly believe in and see a complete alternate reality....and no proof or TRUTH gets through to them...everything I've ever tried has gone in one ear and out the other...which makes me cynical and without much hope for the futrue or the state of our *union* of illusion. x(

don't listen to us? This is a huge puzzle to me.. I never thought I would see this day in America at this time..when folks turned against each other, brother against sister?

Would-be prophets never fulfill their mission with family. Within family, there is a universal understanding that everyone is full of crap.

Don't think of your family as a collection of political units to be treated like electoral demographic groups. Not only does it not work, but it leads to obnoxious behavior.

Every family has that one guy who has to go on a political rant at the family reunion and make everybody else uncomfortable.

Don't be that guy.

genetics plays a larger part in our lives than we even realize those of us who have followed it.

How some families seem so close and have so much in common, but others seem to have gotten all the "fruit fly" deviations is beyond me. But, it does seem that "odd balls" crop up in some families and are always on the outside. Interesting...but painful if one is the "green eyed" fly in the midst of the "blue eyes."

As soon as he starts the "hate America" stuff just be like "oh geez that's such horseshit. Are you gonna keep on like this cuz I don't wanna waste my time." And don't. Act like he's the one wasting your time because he is when he talks like that. Don't beg him to see things your way.

But I would say first is to not push making him watch the Moore movie. That will only make him want to fight against you. And of everyone on Fox, O'Reilly is the only one I'll watch and I actually agree with him sometimes...shock horror..I know, but then I'm more of a moderate/center democrat.

You might mention to him that it was the Democrats who got our budget under control. That they balanced it for the first time. The current deficit is out of control and rising. The only hope with Bush is massive cuts in budget. Education, Vet. benefits and other areas will be cut. Social Security itself is at risk if something isn't done. All our money is being used to pay down the national debt.

Don't fight him on the war. It is a polarizing and emotional issue. It is the issue that Bush wants their core to think about. Instead change the issues and bring it to them in terms they can understand better.

Ask him if knows Sen. Bill Frist. If he says no...well remind him that Frist is the Republican Sen Majority leader. Well, I read that Frist spoke at the National Press Club and he spoke of the problems of the health care system. It was like hearing Edwards. Frist said, "Today's approaches, old approaches, are failing us today. They lead to costs that are growing too fast; we all know that. They lead to enormous quality chasms that exist today. And these old approaches have no chance of addressing the new challenges of 2004."

Yes..sounds almost like "Two Americas" there doesn't it and coming from a GOP. The problem is only the Democrats are really taking this issue by the horns and wanting to make a change. We currently spend about 15% of our annual incomes on health care. Business can't give raises because of rising health care coverage. It's cost are choking them. And what did Bush do? He brought a bill into play that gives free control to the drug companies to do whatever they want with pricing. Health care will effect him directly and only the Democrats want to drastically change it. And even Sen. Frist agrees that it must be changed and uses the same language as Edwards.

And should we talk about higher Education. It's on the cutting board with the cost of the war, which has not been included in the budgets. In my state WA, UW has just cut off all transfers that will be allowed from Community colleges to the University. If you apply and you have a 3.5 GPA, you will be rejected. If you come from a 2 year community college with a 3.00 gpa, you will be rejected. The university has no money. Our state is trying to raise a sales tax to help with elementary and higher education costs, but still the University is facing the Baby Boom Echo. That's the kids of my generation coming into college years. That is your brother's son.

No child left behind hasn't been funded. There's no money in the budget for education. Ask your brother how he will pay for his kids education. Ask him what Bush's plan is for higher education. Kerry's plan will effect him and not effect his pocket book unless he is one of the top 1%. Middle class will not face a tax increase.

And if screams about how liberal Kerry/Edwards are mention that the information being presented about Kerry being First and Edwards fourth most liberal democrats came from 2003 only. A year where they were both away for many votes and in previous years they were rated must lower. Edwards even was on the Centrist list raking down in the 30th and close to Lieberman two years.

I know you want to speak about the war, but that isn't the fight you will win. Leave it or quote Edwards position and move onto things that will effect him. Like health care, social security and Education.

It's not worth it.

Personally, I am with the "tractor parts" poster -- life's too short and family is too important to get into these sort of doomed shouting matches if you can avoid them.

But okay, let's say you have your reasons. I would suggest you are doing some things wrong:

1) You say you want to counter the Fox message but you never watch it. Well, watch it. Watch O'Reilly and Hannity and listen to Rush. You have to understand the other side's way of thinking or you will never understand their belief system.

2) Don't make the "monolithic opposition" error. People who argue with us are just as complex and multi-faceted as people who agree with us. They aren't brainwashed or dumb, they just have different priorities or a different view of the world.

3) Don't pontificate -- listen. Ask him what he believes in, and ask him in a way in which he will be most comfortable answering. If you get people talking about what they view as positive information -- things they feel good about -- they tend to open up and confide at least a little of what their genuine beliefs and convictions are.

4) Finally, give up on any thought of "converting" him. There is nothing more patronizing or annoying than one person trying to convert another. Add the family element, and it just kicks up emotional dust for you both to choke on.

My advice is make peace and avoid politics. Family is a limited resource and is way more important than the day to day vicissitudes of politics. This isn't Nazi Germany or any other silly comparison -- your brother isn't sending anybody off to death camps. You just have opinions that piss each other off.

Or get married -- then you'll have somebody in your life who *really* pisses you off. ;-)

Bullshit, many of them are. And why wouldn't they be after listening to Rush Limbaugh three hours a day for 10 years?!

They absolutely refuse to consider differing opinions. Several months ago I entered into an agreement (with two conservatives)whereby I would read one of their RW books and they would read one of my LW books. I had finished the Coulter and Goldberg books w/i one week. One of the conservatives has never opened the Alterman book, and the other got to page 20 of the Conason book and put it aside. They simply cannot let conflicting information enter their brains.

Listen to c-span callers sometime. Invariably, they will point to 'Crossfire' as an example of liberal media bias/dominance. Think about it...the only show out there with two partisan dems vs. two partisan pugs, and THIS IS BIASED?

Who does he think fought for those benefits for your dad? It sure as hell wasn't the republicans. If he hates government benefits so much, maybe you should suggest that he foot Dad's medical bills and living expenses out of his own pocket. That'll shut him up.

I have attempted to discuss politics with my 36-year old, Republican nephew. Luckily we only see each other once a year but it is a visit that isn't easily forgotten. He is one of those young people that became a Republican because his much loved father was one. His father was a Republican when it was known as "The Grand Old Party," and held true to the beliefs of less government, less taxes.
My brother-in-law died young leaving my sister with 2-sons in their early 20's. His death was sudden and un-expected and his children and especially this Republican nephew, never could fully accept this loss. His political education apparently came from Rush Limbaugh and he is able to recite Lumpballs verbatum.
This young man has 3-young daughters (he is an excellent father) that he adores more than life. He lost his very profitable tech job and has done whatever to support his family. He is and has been in the process of divorce from a very immature woman who wanted the divorce and total custody of the children. He has lost his brand new home and has gone into a divorce nightmare debt of $60,000 as he battles his wife and her parents for joint custody. His wife lives with her parents refuses to work more than 8-hours a week and the children are torn between one set of grandparents that are cold and uncaring and another grandmother (my sister) who adores them and can only see them a few day a year and telephone calls when her son has custody.

This young man was always a loving child but I honestly believe that along with the death of his father and the family situation that he now finds himself in, he has to rage at someone or something and he has chosen politics. At one time my sister bought into his Neocon rants but thankfully she has seen the thruth and she no longer will allow him to draw her into his political rages.

George W. Bush has not brought out the best in Americans and his henchmen have used "the divide and conquer," to control.

he thinks I've done better in life than he has. But he was the younger of us...and my Dad lavished private school and all kinds of money on him, whereas I got very little. It was a divorce situation and my Dad often said I reminded him of my mother whom he divorced.

So, there could be "psychodrama" stuff in there. I hate to think that because I've seen other brothers and sisters be very close given a similar situation to ours.

But, I think my brother really hates women and I've heard that Fox has a "woman thing" but since I don't watch it, I haven't had a chance to see if it was true.

But, I don't resent my brother for the "advantages" he had...because I did everything on my own and was proud of it. My Dad seemed to admire that but not that he ever told me. My brother was the one he wanted to see succeed. Maybe that's it. Sad..because I never ever have intereacted with my brother in any way except as a sister who was concerned about our Dad in common.

Do the Repugs on Fox hate women? I don't know...if this is where he gets his views.

YES but the Federal Govt. kicked in so he doesn't have worries. I said you and I will have worries in our old age...but Dad got taken care of because he could kick in and the Govt. "grandfathered" his Federal Pension and retirement.

Brother didn't acknowledge a word I said. Said to me "Well, you need to watch O'Reilly...he's really good." I said I have never watched Fox because I read what I need to know from many sources. He said: "That internet is where the commie Democrats hang out."

That pretty much ended the conversation, except I said to him, if he went to see "Farenheit 9/11 I would watch O'Reilly for two weeks and get back to him. He said:"Moore is a scum and his movie is filled with lies." So, I said: "Well the bet still stands." He didn't care about that and so we ended the conversation.

There's no hope for folks like that...but I can't imagine we come from the same family. There's only two of us. So different. He said: "You believe in Fairy Tales, but I'm a realist."

Ha! Fairy Tales?