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Hell in a Handbasket: The Circular Firing Squad Takes Aim at Our Own Voter Registration Efforts

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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 03:47 AM
Original message
Hell in a Handbasket: The Circular Firing Squad Takes Aim at Our Own Voter Registration Efforts
Edited on Sun May-04-08 03:49 AM by McCamy Taylor
Sorry for this one, but if was a monkey, I would probably be flinging poo around my cage about now. The sniping that has been going on within the Democratic Party has been pretty bad, but I never thought I would see us start trying to dismantle our own voter registration and get out the vote efforts.

I mean, what can you say?



Four days until the North Carolina primary. Obama was supposed to win this one in a landslide, but polls show him with a single digit lead.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/nc/north_carolina_democratic_primary-275.html

Clinton has said if she win’s North Carolina, she wins the nomination. No one really expects her to do that, but Rev. Wright’s recent series of speeches may have some effect on Sen. Obama. His supporters believe that this is unfair. They blame Wright, rather than Obama, even though Wright advised Obama to separate himself from Wright’s church before running for president, because he told him that their association would have just this effect on his campaign. Rather than blaming their own candidate for poor judgment, they prefer to blame the rest of the world for conspiring against him. Wright attacked him viciously by calling him a “politician”—even though he is obviously a politician and even though he obviously distanced himself from Wright for pragmatic reasons. Wright is such a meanie.

Now, just days before the all important North Carolina primary, internet bloggers have raised a stink about a Democratic voter registration group which has been operating for years. The group happens to have the name Women’s Voices Women’s Votes. Since Clinton is a woman and allied with NOW and the women’s movement, the mere name of the group is enough to conjure up the image of Sen. Clinton. While the group’s mission statement describes its goal as being to register unmarried women in order to increase their political clout, it also seeks to register African-Americans and Latinos—two other Democratic voting blocks.

On this page you can see the success which they had in 2006 registering unmarried women.
http://www.wvwv.org/about/accomplishments

Keep in mind that unmarried women often live in poverty as single heads of household with children, making them a group particularly vulnerable to the economic hardships caused by the Bush-Cheney administration. Work at voter registration and get out the vote efforts by groups such as this were instrumental in the Democrat’s success in retaking Congress in 2006. WVWV was also active in 2004.
This group was not formed in 2007, as some seem to imply, just to keep Black people from voting.

Since we have about twenty or thirty threads which post the charges against WVWV’s I will not bother stating them. Go look on the greatest page if you want to refresh your memory. I am going to try to summarize some of the other voices that you are not likely to hear at DU—at least until the North Carolina primary is over. For instance, here is an explanation posted online Wednesday about what happened in North Carolina for those who have an open mind (meaning those who do not have a vested interest in convicting Hillary Clinton personally of election law violation in order to secure the Democratic nomination for Obama or at least widening his margin of victory in North Carolina so that he can stay in the race):

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=5489

this is information i know first hand. working assets has funded WVWV since it started in 2004. we've seen the research and the field plans grow over time.
WVWV is the only voter registration group with two cycles of replicable randomized control studies showing the impact and cost efficiency of their mail and call based voter registration and GOTV work. here are a few things you may not know about WVWV.
1) WVWV doesn't just target unmarried women. they target hispanics and african americans. so it's not surprising at all that they are targeting black voters in n.c. they've done this in partnership with organizations like the NAACP in 2004 and National Council of La Raza more recently. they use their methods and infrastructure from the unmarried women work to get minorities on the roll. for instance, field groups and funders will pay them to do mail-based voter reg on african americans who don't live in the urban core where they can be cost efficiently registered via door knocking and mass site registration (at bus stops for example). so where minority voters may be more geographically dispersed, WVWV is employed to do that registration by mail order.
2) there is always a spike in voter registration around primaries AFTER the registration deadline has passed. this is the best time to register voters. research confirms this. around primaries people are reminded that they need to register in time for the general. WVWV has done a lot of research in this area. they know when people are most likely to register. unfortunately, what makes sense in registering the largest aggregate number of voters for the general election at the lowest cost is having a confusing effect in the N.C. primary which is hotly contested and very charged.
3) WVWV has done a lot of research on how to layer communications so as to have the greatest registration rate at the lowest cost from its mail in programs. the calls increase the open rate of the envelopes with the voter registration forms. i've seen research they have done looking at volunteer calls before registration packets arrive v. robocalls. also i've seen research on the effect of who the call is from based on the gender and ethnicity of the targeted voter. are calls from a generic voter participation organization the most effective? or from an individual with a name and way of speaking that is similar to the target demographic.
4) WVWV is not a clinton-associated organization. yes john podesta is on the board, but so is mike lux and william mcnary -- both obama people.
WVWV has made big gains in turning out african american men and married hispanic women in the last two years. i think what is a general election strategy which has caused a wrinkle via misunderstanding in a primary context.


The explanations above make as much sense as the theory that a group run by Clinton and Obama supporters of impeccable reputation would resort to voter suppression.

And then there is this article from Salon from Friday:

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2008/05/02/robocalls/index.html

Did a pro-Hillary Clinton nonprofit group make voter suppression robo-calls to keep Barack Obama's voters from going to the polls in North Carolina on Tuesday? That's the charge from part of the liberal blogosphere this week, but it's a charge based on no solid evidence of wrongdoing. While the calls were misleading and probably against the law, a close look at the facts leads to the conclusion that the group responsible had no malicious intent, but is just another well-intentioned but bungling nonprofit.
Snip
WVWV appears to have violated North Carolina law because it did not provide contact information in the message, or a way for recipients to decline future calls. WVWV is subject to civil penalties for the infraction.
Soon, the blogsphere was abuzz with accusations. But the coverage of the incidents was severely flawed, and people like Talking Points Memo's Josh Marshall -- who has written for Salon and is one of the blogosphere's most respected residents -- were lobbing criminal allegations against WVWV before all the facts were in. In fact, some had made these charges even before they knew who was behind the robo-calls. Writing about the calls on Marshall's TPM Muckraker on Tuesday, before WVWV had been identified as the source of the calls, Paul Kiel said, "Here's another for the annals of vote suppression." Kiel further characterized the calls as a "scheme."
Snip
Those who've suggested there was voter suppression at work often started their coverage from the assumption that the calls were directed at the primary. In fact, the calls were part of a campaign aimed at 24 states in total, and they were intended to boost voter registration in general. The calls had nothing to do with the primary, and the registration deadline the group says it really cared about -- the one for the general election -- won't pass until this fall. Admittedly, the call itself did not specify this, and it should have. But even so, this still isn't an after-the-fact assertion by WVWV. The group had made its purpose clear even before the controversy began. In a letter Gardner sent April 24 to the executive director of the North Carolina State Board of Elections, she explained the purpose of the mailings intended to follow the robo-calls and wrote, "Unfortunately, North Carolina residents will receive this mail after the deadline for registering to vote to participate in the upcoming primary election. Please be aware that the mailing is not intended to encourage registration specifically for the primary, but simply to encourage voter registration in general."
Snip
Believing that WVWV was trying to suppress votes in North Carolina requires something of a leap of faith. You could, for instance, believe that Clinton allies had created the group as a front, and had spent years working to register voters across the country so that, when Clinton finally ran for president four years after the group was founded, they could pervert the electoral process to help their candidate. Or you could believe that at some point Clinton allies began manipulating the group and WVWV conducted drives in 23 states other than North Carolina -- some of which had already held their nominating contests by the time the mailings went out -- in order to mask wrongdoing they planned for one state, maybe even a few states.
But these conclusions -- or any other conclusion that WVWV was actively trying to hurt Obama and help Clinton -- conflict with quite a bit of available evidence that suggests WVWV is no Clinton front. On Feb. 13, the group put out a press release declaring proudly that unmarried women were a "powerful component of the dramatic young (under 30) and female turnout" in the Maryland and Virginia Democratic primaries, which Obama won. Not long before the South Carolina primary -- which Obama also won -- WVWV put out a different press release, this one about the importance of unmarried African-American women in the 2008 election. Then there's Ron Rosenblith, the husband of WVWV founder Gardner. His company, Integral Resources, has done telemarketing work for WVWV and for the Democratic Party. It has also worked for the Obama campaign, which recently submitted to the Federal Election Commission an amended October quarterly report showing that it owed the company more than $140,000. And while it is true that there are Clinton supporters on the group's board -- and that Maggie Williams, Clinton's current chief of staff, previously worked with the group -- there are Obama supporters there as well, including Lux and William McNary.


There is additional information in the Salon piece about a handful of prominent internet bloggers who appear to have been instrumental in pushing this story along. I will leave it to readers to decide if they want to explore those issues or not.

Then there is this memo which WVWV put out today in which they explain how they will attempt to continue their voter registration activity but avoid confusing voters. In my experience, when an organization can identify the problem and show how they will fix it while still continuing their mission, that is the best sign of good intentions--assuming of course that they are allowed to continue registering voters now that the NAACP has called in the DOJ. More on that later:

http://www.wvwv.org/2008/5/3/wvwv-voter-registration

Womens Voices, Women Vote has registered over 400,000 unmarried women, African American and Latina voters this cycle. We have mailed applications forms, to over 10 million prospective voters in 26 states. For those unregistered people for whom we have phone numbers, we provide a robo call alerting them that they'll be receiving a registration application in the mail, and urging them to fill it out and return it.
Our North Carolina phone calls and mailing went not only to African American voters but to unmarried women and Latinas. It is hard to imagine why we would have mailed to all these constituencies if we were trying to help one candidate or suppress the vote of one demographic group.
This week, there was a misunderstanding about the robo calls preceding our mailed registration applications in North Carolina. Apparently someone complained that they were already registered, and believed that a call urging them to register might have been intended to create ambiguity about their registration status.
Like many other voter registration groups, we typically continue our voter registration work without a pause up until the general election registration deadline. We have not typically closed down operations during the window when registration will be too late to participate in a primary, but is still in plenty of time to participate in a general election. We do not believe that people who are in fact registered to vote jump to the conclusion that they can't vote simply because they are offered another opportunity to register.
Unfortunately, steadily increasing voter suppression efforts in recent years have created a not-unreasonable sense of suspicion among all of us who support voting rights. In the North Carolina case, it led some to jump to a very wrong conclusion.
We regret any misunderstanding although clearly the mail would have informed all who received the calls as to our identity and the registration rules and deadlines. We have concluded that, in this context, we will not in the future mail or call during the window between close of registration for the primary and the primary election.


Ok, I know that this is not even going to be read by the people who want to nail Clinton to a cross, but for everyone else, I think I have most of the pertinent info. As to the other charge---that WVWV is some kind of nest of whatever they are calling Clinton associates these days (something that implies that they are like commies in the imagination of Joe McCarthy in 1950 I suppose)---on this page you can see the people on their board. Yes, there are a lot of Democrats that know or worked with the Clintons. But there are some people who know and support Sen. Obama, too, like William McNary. Someone at DU implied that because he had not given money to Obama, he was only pretending to supporting him. I decided to do a little more investigating than that. There are other ways to show one’s support besides money.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/elections/article/0,2808,DRMN_24736_5548569,00.html

May 22, 2007 at a speaking engagement in Iowa, guess who was the introductory speaker for Obama?

Obama doesn't bother rousing the crowd or trying to match the booming cadence of the friend who introduced him, William McNary, co-director of the group Citizen Action/Illinois. In this setting, he's subdued, even if the majority of his words are the very same ones he delivers to rousing response on the stump.


http://www.nhi.org/online/issues/149/obama.html

He endorsed him in 2007

He collaborated with United Power for Action and Justice (UPAJ), a metropolitan Chicago faith-based organization formed in 1997 by the IAF, to expand children's health insurance in Illinois. For its part, UPAJ gave Obama a prominent platform to address its multiracial, metropolitan membership during his 2004 bid for the U.S. Senate. William McNary, co-director of Citizen Action/Illinois, a coalition of labor, community and citizen groups, says, "Barack was not just willing to meet with community-based groups, not only to be a good vote for us, but he also strategized with us to help move our position forward."


http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/reneaguilera/CWQY

William McNary, president of USAction, a national network of statewide progressive citizen groups, personally--but not organizationally--supports Obama as a "genuine progressive" who will "expand the boundaries of American democracy," and heal the rupture with the rest of the world Bush caused with the war in Iraq. But even McNary, who has long known and worked with Obama, says, "If I had to offer any criticism, he's a bit cautious for my taste. People have to see someone who is putting forth bold proposals, not weak, timid programs. Bolder can be better."


Here is what Sen. Obama’s friend and supporter William McNary had to say about WVWV:

http://polstate.com/?p=5400

Given my candidate preference and my background and associations in voter registration efforts, I can say with great conviction, there was no effort to suppress or confuse African American voters, or any other voters in the state of North Carolina by Women’s Voices, Women Vote.
I have seen up close the work of Women’s Voices. Women Vote and know well the commitment, passion and leadership our organization has shown in helping make the voices of unmarried women and other underrepresented voters heard. There may have been mistakes made in this particular registration drive in North Carolina, but Women’s Voices, Women Vote’s motives were not malicious or intended in any way to confuse voters. Ironically, just the opposite. I know the staff is making every effort to right the situation.


I notice from William McNary’s bio
http://tools.isovera.com/organizations.php3?action=printContentItem&orgid=57&typeID=103&itemID=958
That he has run leadership seminars for the NAACP. He will probably be surprised to learn that the NAACP has filed charges against him and the group he co-chairs with the federal DOJ for voter suppression in North Carolina---on the eve of the North Carolina primary no less. But I am sure he will not take it personally. This is a different kind of election and a different kind of politics.
Like the emails digby has been getting because she had the nerve to receive an award from WVWV.
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2008/04/wvwv-by-digby-good-morning-america-it.html
Good morning, America! It just gets better all the time.

Due to the fact that I was voted favorite female blogger by people who read their site and participated in their PSA encouraging women to vote, I have been inundated with angry emails demanding that I disavow Women's Voices Women's Vote for their "campaign to disenfranchise voters in North Carolina."


I am sure that I will be accused of being part of this plot, too. So, I am going to throw caution to the wind and get on my soapbox and speak my mind.

Why is not the Obama campaign---which is obviously behind the peculiar timing of this story ---spending its efforts denouncing the much more real threat to Democratic voters’ rights which the SCOTUS has committed in the state of Indiana by OKing the use of the Voter ID law in next week’s primary? Many elderly and African-American voters will be disenfranchised because they do not have picture ID. These laws are going to hurt the Democrats this fall. They are nothing more or less than a poll tax which target the most vulnerable citizens----the poor, the elderly, minorities, immigrants.

Why is the Obama campaign attacking a legitimate voter registration/get out the vote organization which benefits the Democratic Party for a short term gain like the possibility of a few percentage points in North Carolina? Do they not realize that the Bush DOJ could use this as an excuse to close down this and maybe even other similar voter registration organizations? And that other get out the vote drives can now be questioned because this one has been attacked? All they have to do is find some Republicans to swear that they got "confused" too. Have we all become so inured to friendly fire that even our greatest strength as Democrats, our ability to mobilize our voters is something that we are willing to toss out the window if we can somehow twist it into a momentary political advantage? Never mind that when the plot unravels and all is revealed to have been sound and fury signifying nothing, the Democratic Party will be even more divided than it was before.

The stage is now set for the Bush DOJ to stick its nose into top secret voter registration activities---so that it can share them with the RNC—and hinder those activities all the way up until the election. I hope that the Obama camp and the people that support his campaign in its divisive short sighted dirty tricks are happy. Hip hip hooray. You have an ugly headline that will entertain the press—and probably not even bump Wright, I am sorry to say---for a few days, until the vote is over in North Carolina.

But at what a cost.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 03:50 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yeah...
Bungling...didn't they bungle in a few other states since this Primary process has started.

I'll take the Obama camps voter registration drives over this anyday. I think the've registered more new voters than this little group has in its entire existence.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Since they call and mail close the the primary when people think to register for the GE
if they have not already registered for the primary (as in "Damn, I wish I could vote in the primary. But this packet I got in the mail says if I send it in now I can vote this fall so I'll do this now so that I don't forget.) there should be a lot of women and Latinos (i.e Clinton supporters) who also got calls and packets. The investigation will show this and then everyone will say "Oh, never mind" But of course, by then the North Carolina primary will be long over. That was why the Obama camp planned this for the week before the primary.

And after the other dirty stuff they have pulled, I am no longer giving the Obama camp any benefit of the doubt unless Obama himself gets on TV and says out loud where everyone can hear him that he is absolutely sure that this was not deliberate and that Clinton had nothing to do with it before the North Carolina vote.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #4
43. You never adressed
The bungling and the complaints that were logged in other states about this group and how they promised to fix them...and didn't
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #43
74. Can you post a link to show that they never fixed specific problems in other states?
Edited on Sun May-04-08 04:30 PM by McCamy Taylor
The problems that were specific to North Carolina---namely that North Carolina would turn out to have a system for same day registration in place after normal registration was closed---is probably something that national voter registration groups did not anticipate. Can you document that WVWV was notified of this arrangement in North Carolina and that they deliberately ignored it or that their policy which appeared to be national level and based upon research was designed especially to thwart that same day registration?

If you can not, then you do not have a case.

Simply saying that they had problems in other states is immaterial, since each state might have had different unforeseen difficulties for a national voter registration get out the vote organization---such as changes to the law state legislatures or AGs might have enacted in the time period between 2006 and 2008 that the organization might not be aware of. Or even local court rulings. They also might not be aware of specific instances of actual GOP voter suppression efforts in some communities that would make their own legitimate efforts suspect and which would require them to modify them.

I want to know if anyone attempted to contact WVWV to ask them to modify their voter registration efforts--- or was the internet attack launched without any effort to make use of WVWV services? For instance, WVWV could have produced a different phone call reminding the same people that if they had not registered they could same day register. This would have provide a valuable service to the voters of North Carolina. According to the stories above, the bloggers were set on WVWV without being told who they were---maybe because they would have had second thoughts about making their accusations if they had known the nature of the group.

Did the Obama camp know who was behind the calls? Did they send emails to these bloggers alerting them to "voter suppression" knowing all along that it would turn out to be WVWV from the fact that the "Lamont" calls were from them in earlier states and that there were Clinton (and Obama ) supporters on the board and did they count upon their friends in the bloggo-sphere getting the story rolling before they had all the facts? It is a very convenient distraction for them from Wright and it should help some in North Carolina.

These are the questions which I would like to see addressed.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
65. "Lamont" called registered black voters during our early voting period
and he told them they needed to complete and send in a registration packet
that WVWV was sending them.

He said that THEN THEY COULD VOTE.

"Lamont" didn't tell the registered black voters (why was he calling them in the first place?)
that they could register at early voting (same day registration available then)
during the very time that "Lamont" was calling them.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
67. Women's Voices, Women Vote - Org Chart: Dominated by Clinton Ties

Women's Voices Women Vote - Organizational Chart Shows Clinton Ties Run Deep


NPR has the Center for Investigative Reporting's organizational chart for "Women's Voices, Women Vote" here

Here are the members of WVWV who worked for Bill Clinton


Page Gardner is the Founder and President of WVWV.
She served as Bill Clinton's deputy political director for his 1992 campaign.
She also served on his presidential transition team.
Joe Goode is the Executive director of WVWV.
He was a polster for Bill Clintons 1992 Presidential campaign.

Michael Lux is a board member.
He worked on Bill Clinton's 1992 campaign.
He claims to have switched his support from Hillary to Obama,
but only has donated to Hillary and Hillpac.

Mimi Mager is a board member.
She served as a member of the Clinton-Gore transition team.
She was a founding member of Emily's list (which supports Hillary)

John Podesta is a board member.
He is a former chief of staff to President Clinton.

Pat Griffin is on the leadership team.
He is a partner at Grifin Willins CPM,
WVWV has paid CPM 88,842 for strategic planning.
Griffin is Former top advisor to Pres Clinton,
served as assistant to president Clinton for leg affairs

Anna Greenberg, Leadership Team, Sen VP Greenber QRR.
WVWV paid GQRR 225,854 for polling focus groups.
also conducts surveys for NPR.
Greenberg has served as pollster to president Clinton.

Maggie Williams is on the leadership team. Also partner at Griffin Williams CPM.
She is current campaign manager for Sen Cinton.
Advised her senatorial campaign.
Was chief of staff of for Hillary Clinton while she was first lady.
Served as assistant to President Clinton and COS at President Clinton's foundation.


Here are the members of WVWV who worked for Hillary Clinton


Maggie Williams is on the leadership team. Also partner at Griffin Williams CPM.
She is current campaign manager for Sen Cinton.
Advised her senatorial campaign.
Was chief of staff of for Hillary Clinton while she was first lady.
Also served as asst to Pres Clinton and COS at Pres Clinton's foundation.

Mimi Mager is a board member.
She served as a member of the Clinton-Gore transition team.
She was a founding member of Emily's list (which supports Hillary)


Ties to Clinton campaign through marriage or money


Ron Rosenblith is on leadership team.
Is married to Page Gardner (who was Bill Clinton's dep political director for his 92 campaign.)He is CEO of Integral resources, and
IR has received 791,954 for phones from WVWV.

Hal Malchow is on the WVWV Leadership team.
He is president of MSHC.
MSHC has received 580,319 from WVWV for voter list development.
Malchow's MSHC is owed nearly $1 million by the Clinton campaign for printing expenses.


Members who say they support Obama or Edwards


Todd Webster, leadership team. is President of Webster Strategies.
WVWV has paid Webster Strategies 89,953 for website communication.
Says is Obama supporter, Obama campaign has paid WS 8,000.
No donations found.

Michael Lux is a board member.
He worked on Bill Clinton's 1992 campaign.
He claims to have switched his support from Hillary to Obama,
but only has donated to Hillary and Hillpac.

William McNary is a board member and says he supports Obama but no donations found.

Chris Desser is a board member/co founder. Endorsed Edwards.


See the full chart here at NPR
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #67
75. Obama should respond to insinuations that McNary only pretends to support him.
I have seen this "no donations found" crap posted a number of times at DU. As I show in my OP, William McNary was one of Obama's most prominent and vocal progressive supporters early in his campaign for president.

For Obama supporters to throw him under the bus now, implying that he is part of some conspiracy to suppress the vote in North Carolina and that he only pretends to support Obama is offensive.

So, anyone from the Obama camp care to respond to these insinuations from the people at DU who claim to be your own supporters?
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #67
82. and that matters why?
sounds to me like the group is registering Democrats.

You see a problem with that?

If so, I see a loser....
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 03:53 AM
Response to Original message
2. BTW
Obama did denounce the SCOTUS decision and express how dissapointed he was by it...what the hell can you do when the Supreme Court rules on something...it becomes law.
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lligrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 03:59 AM
Response to Original message
3. All I Have To Say Is:
F A I L !
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Yep, that is where the Obama campaign is leading the Democrats this fall, which is why
so many seasoned Democrats worry about him. He can not keep doing stuff like this. The press thinks that it is cute in the Democratic Primary against Clinton. They will not tolerate it against McCain. They will eat him alive the first time he tries one of these moves.
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lligrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. LOL Still Trying To Push That Media Favoring Obama BS??
You are a riot! :rofl:
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #13
44. BS? It has been proven.
Are you blind?
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beezlebum Donating Member (927 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #44
62. proven?
Edited on Sun May-04-08 12:11 PM by beezlebum
where? by whom? mccamy taylor? or someone in the corporate media?

i'd rather use my own ability to discern- i'd say that insisting obama is a muslim, osamaing him, flagpinning him, wrighting him 24-7, softballing clinton and propping up her "concern" and her "fighter"tude and her "underdog"ness suggests otherwise.

when gore "lost" the election, he was portrayed as a sore loser for trying to prove that he actually won, while bush was the triumphant victor.

hillary actually loses, and she is a fighter, an underdog- sure, sometimes the media does something that puts her in the victim's corner, but it goes away and is quickly forgotten, and real issues such as robogate come up- wouldn't you expect an msm who "hates" hillary to be ALL OVER IT? like WRIGHT ON RICE? er...you know what i mean.

meanwhile obama the "muslim," who "hates the flag you can tell b/c he refuses to sport it on his lapel," "can't close the deal," and is a "controversial figure" because of his former controversial pastor- who has also been plagued by distortion and obfuscation; minor quibbles like bittergate turn into month-long "problems" that are "hurting" obama in the polls.

there, now i just "proved" it.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #13
73. The press favors McCain. They like to see Democrats divided.
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:13 AM
Response to Original message
6. There are a BOATLOAD of Clinton-affiliated folks in this group.
Edited on Sun May-04-08 04:30 AM by Triana
Someone had them all posted in a previous post. You can attempt to minimize and deny if you want, but I find that VERY suspicious.

Furthermore, this little group keeps "apologizing" for their cluelessness re: local laws, local voting and registration schedules and regarding their ILLEGAL anonymous/unlisted number. They've done it in every state and there HAVE BEEN other complaints. Each time they're "oh-sooo-sorry".

So they keep "apologizing" but they never seem to LEARN and then change their tactics. They don't even seem INTERESTED in that.

Thus, and in addition to the NUMEROUS Clinton-affiliated people involved in this thing (mostly people who have worked on Bill's campaigns in the past or for his admin, and ALSO PEOPLE CURRENTLY WORKING IN HILLARY'S campaign - such as her CAMPAIGN MANAGER - excuse ME - I am NOT SUPPOSED TO FIND *THAT* SUSPICIOUS?), they seem quite sneaky to me and not at ALL on the up-and-up about what they're doing.

Deny.

Blame.

Minimize.

It's what most people or entities do when they're up to no good. Hmph.

ARE YOU TELLING ME that if Barack Obama's campaign manager AND a boatload of other Obama-affiliated people (and their respective ties, family and otherwise) was working with or for an organization (no matter WHAT organization it was) which was anonymously and ILLEGALLY robo-calling NUMEROUS US states before their primary elections TARGETING WORKING WHITE PEOPLE specifically, and giving people BOGUS or MISLEADING information about their voter registrations and voter registration status - that WOULDN'T BE CONSIDERED AN ISSUE?

Because THAT is what Hillary's campaign is doing. And you expect people to BUY that this isn't deliberate?

HA!

Good luck selling that bill of goods.
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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:24 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Yet they have been supported by Working Assets, and NAACP
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:33 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Hello!? The NAACP is having THEM INVESTIGATED for this crap in NC.
Furthermore, WA and NAACP has NO CONTROL over what the Hillary campaign chooses to do - or what organizations they choose to involve in doing it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5800352
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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. Well then since NAACP no longer supports voter registration efforts
from this group as they have in the past then I will be fair in asking NAACP for my yearly contributions back that we have made to them for 30 years. 30 years at 500.00 a year will be a nice bit of change to a different charity that actually deserves it and really does support voter registration efforts.
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Divernan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #18
41. The NAACP supports voter REGISTRATION, not voter SUPPRESSION
Edited on Sun May-04-08 08:20 AM by Divernan
You know damn well that the NAACP supports voter registration efforts, just as you also know that the WVWV actions were aimed at disinformation and suppressing voter registration in primarily black communities. It is a sad commentary on how HRC has corrupted her supporters' ethics that someone who has supported the NAACP for 30 years (as you claim, and as far as I know) would turn on this organization for carrying out its mandate to ensure voting rights.

As per the link in Post 11:

"The North Carolina NAACP has filed a formal complaint of possible voter suppression against Women's Voices Women Vote, the D.C. nonprofit that as we revealed earlier this week was behind the deceptive and illegal robo-calls made to state residents. The N.C. NAACP hand-delivered its complaint today to state Attorney General Roy Cooper and State Board of Elections Executive Director Gary Bartlett. It's also alerted the U.S. Department of Justice that it's collecting more information from its national network and is contemplating filing a formal complaint with that agency.

N.C. NAACP President Rev. Dr. William J. Barber II (center in photo) announced the filing of the complaint at a press conference held this afternoon outside the N.C. Department of Justice. He was joined by his group's attorney, Al McSurely (left), and Bob Hall (right) of Democracy North Carolina. The state Attorney General's office is already investigating Women's Voices, but the N.C. NAACP and Democracy North Carolina want to be parties to thaT
investigation."
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #18
51. The attorney general and the people...
of North Carolina have a problem with this group. Are you saying they have no right to complain? Or that the Attorney General should not hold these people accountable for their breaking the law?



AG: Recent Robo-Calls On Voting Info. Are Illegal
Wednesday, Apr 30, 2008 - 10:00 PM Updated: 11:18 PM

By Steve Sbraccia
General Assignment Reporter
WNCN-TV

RALEIGH, N.C. -- Thousands of North Carolinians have received automated phone calls in the last few days that state officials said broke the law

As the complaints began to pile up, those cataloging them began to notice a pattern where certain groups seemed to be targeted.The situation was brought to the attention of Attorney General Roy Cooper’s office. He said those automated phone calls are illegal.

“They don't identify the group sponsoring the call, nor do they give the recipient info as to who they need to contact to stop the calls from coming,” said Cooper.
---------------------------------------

“A lot of the complaints came from African-American voters,” said Chris Kromm of the Institute for Southern Studies. “When ee heard a lot of the complaints were coming from African-Americans, that really raised a red flag for us.”

Kromm also said the institute's research indicates the Women's Voice group has a number of interesting connections to Bill Clinton.

“They claim they're a non-profit, non partisan organization. But, its president is a recent donor to Hill-Pac, a big Hillary funding group. The executive director worked for Bill Clinton in his ‘92 campaign and the lawyer for the organization is the lawyer who defended Clinton during the impeachment crisis in
the 90's,” said Kromm


FACING SOUTH EXCLUSIVE:
D.C. nonprofit aimed at women voters behind deceptive N.C. robo-calls
By Chris Kromm
Facing South

The D.C.-based nonprofit, led by well-connected Washington operatives, claims in a press release they sent to Facing South that the North Carolina calls are part of a 24-state effort targeted at a list of 3 million voters, especially unmarried women. The robo-calls, which never mention Women's Voices, are followed by mailings that include information on how to register to vote. They plan to mail some 276,000 packets in North Carolina alone.

But since last November, in at least 11 states nationwide, Women's Voices -- sometimes working through its Voter Participation Center project -- has developed a checkered reputation, drawing rebukes from leading election officials and complaints from thousands of would-be voters as a result of their secretive tactics, deceptive mailings and calls, and penchant for skirting or violating the law. For example:

* In Arizona last November, election officials were "inundated with complaints" after Women's Voices sent a mailing erroneously claiming that recipients were "required" to mail back an enclosed voter registration form. Many who received the mailing were already registered; the mailing also gave the wrong registration date. Secretary of State Jan Brewer denounced the group's tactics as "misleading and deceptive." A similar mailing in Colorado that month " fire and caused confusion," according to a state press release.

* In Wisconsin, state officials singled out Women's Voices for misleading and possibly disenfranchising voters, stating in a press release : "One group in particular -- Women's Voices. Women Vote, of Washington, D.C. -- apparently ignored or disregarded state deadlines in seeking to register voters,"
sending in registrations past the January 30 deadline and causing "hundreds of Wisconsin voters who think they registered in advance" to actually not be.

* Michigan officials ended up "fielding tons of calls from confused voters" after Women's Voices did a February mailing to "380,000 unmarried women" -- including numerous deceased voters and even more that were already registered. Sarah Johnson of Women's Voices "seemed confused by the confusion," the Lansing
State Journal reported.

* A 1.5 million-piece Women's Voices mailing in Florida falsely stated: "To comply with state voting requirements, please return the enclosed application." Pasco County's elections supervisor called it "disingenuous"; another said it created "a lot of unnecessary panic on behalf of the voters," reported local newspapers. Sarah Johnson of Women's Voice said, "I'm sorry to hear that."

* By March, Women's Voices was backing off the erroneous "registration is required" language, but there were still problems. For example, a mailing in Arkansas allowed that "registering to vote is voluntary," but a clerk in Washington County reported that "the majority sent back to the county come from registered voters, causing needless labor for office employees."

Problems with the group's tactics have also been documented in Louisiana, Kentucky and Ohio.In each state, the Women's Voices campaigns have brought the same news and the same themes, again and again: Deceptive claims and misrepresentations of the law -- sometimes even breaking the law. Wildly inaccurate mailing lists, supposedly aimed at "unregistered single women," but in reality reaching many registered voters as well as families, deceased persons and pets. Tactics that confuse voters and potentially disenfranchise them.

For such a sophisticated and well-funded operation, which counts among its ranks some of the country's most seasoned political operatives, such missteps are peculiar, as is the surprise expressed by Women's Voices staff after each controversy.

http://southernstudies.org/facingsouth/2008/04/facing-south-exclusive-dc-nonprofit.asp
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
66. its not voter registration efforts when you call registered voters and tell them they aren't registe
I'm in North Carolina and I've been following the mess that WVWV has been up to.

They call and mail people who are registered to vote.

They create confusion and chaos.
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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #18
85. Sounds like the threats the Clinton donors have been making...
Your true colors may be showing.
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #8
39. Apparently, Working Assets and the NAACP does not like the "deceptive and illegal" aspect.
Wasn't this targeted at black people?? Wasn't this "deceptive and illegal??
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:29 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. People deny when they have done nothing wrong, too, "Seem sneaky" is not a charge.
It is a reflection of the state of the mind of the one making the comment and usually reflects some degree of paranoia.
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. So if Obama were doing this, HOW MANY people would think it was just a 'mistake'?
Edited on Sun May-04-08 04:42 AM by Triana
ARE YOU TELLING ME that if Barack Obama's campaign manager AND a boatload of other Obama-affiliated people (and their respective ties, family and otherwise) was working with or for an organization (no matter WHAT organization it was) which was anonymously and ILLEGALLY robo-calling NUMEROUS US states before their primary elections TARGETING WORKING WHITE PEOPLE specifically, and giving people BOGUS or MISLEADING information about their voter registrations and voter registration status - that WOULDN'T BE CONSIDERED AN ISSUE?

Because THAT is what Hillary's campaign is (apparently) doing. And you expect people to BUY that this isn't deliberate?

Don't expect me or anyone else to believe that right now.

Oh. And "you're paranoid" is also another thing someone says when they're up to no good and got caught at it. It's a form of blame. This crap LOOKS suspicious as all get-out and it IS.

And you can bet your boxers that if the tables were turned as I described above, there's be HELL TO PAY for the Obama campaign both on and off of DU.
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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. Another O supporter who does not believe in helping
unmarried and rural women get out to vote in the GE. Not surprising.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #19
45. We've registered
Edited on Sun May-04-08 08:28 AM by Jake3463
More fucking voters this year than that group ever has. With all their fucking fancy board members.

See PA 100,000 of the those voters were directly from Obama's efforts to register new voters. I know because I registered 20 my self.

Clinton's campaign held a voter registration drive the week before. We did it for 5 weeks before the Primary.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #19
52. Lies, lies, and more lies..


AG: Recent Robo-Calls On Voting Info. Are Illegal
Wednesday, Apr 30, 2008 - 10:00 PM Updated: 11:18 PM

By Steve Sbraccia
General Assignment Reporter
WNCN-TV

RALEIGH, N.C. -- Thousands of North Carolinians have received automated phone calls in the last few days that state officials said broke the law

As the complaints began to pile up, those cataloging them began to notice a pattern where certain groups seemed to be targeted.The situation was brought to the attention of Attorney General Roy Cooper’s office. He said those automated phone calls are illegal.

“They don't identify the group sponsoring the call, nor do they give the recipient info as to who they need to contact to stop the calls from coming,” said Cooper.
---------------------------------------

“A lot of the complaints came from African-American voters,” said Chris Kromm of the Institute for Southern Studies. “When ee heard a lot of the complaints were coming from African-Americans, that really raised a red flag for us.”

Kromm also said the institute's research indicates the Women's Voice group has a number of interesting connections to Bill Clinton.

“They claim they're a non-profit, non partisan organization. But, its president is a recent donor to Hill-Pac, a big Hillary funding group. The executive director worked for Bill Clinton in his ‘92 campaign and the lawyer for the organization is the lawyer who defended Clinton during the impeachment crisis in
the 90's,” said Kromm


FACING SOUTH EXCLUSIVE:
D.C. nonprofit aimed at women voters behind deceptive N.C. robo-calls
By Chris Kromm
Facing South

The D.C.-based nonprofit, led by well-connected Washington operatives, claims in a press release they sent to Facing South that the North Carolina calls are part of a 24-state effort targeted at a list of 3 million voters, especially unmarried women. The robo-calls, which never mention Women's Voices, are followed by mailings that include information on how to register to vote. They plan to mail some 276,000 packets in North Carolina alone.

But since last November, in at least 11 states nationwide, Women's Voices -- sometimes working through its Voter Participation Center project -- has developed a checkered reputation, drawing rebukes from leading election officials and complaints from thousands of would-be voters as a result of their secretive tactics, deceptive mailings and calls, and penchant for skirting or violating the law. For example:

* In Arizona last November, election officials were "inundated with complaints" after Women's Voices sent a mailing erroneously claiming that recipients were "required" to mail back an enclosed voter registration form. Many who received the mailing were already registered; the mailing also gave the wrong registration date. Secretary of State Jan Brewer denounced the group's tactics as "misleading and deceptive." A similar mailing in Colorado that month " fire and caused confusion," according to a state press release.

* In Wisconsin, state officials singled out Women's Voices for misleading and possibly disenfranchising voters, stating in a press release : "One group in particular -- Women's Voices. Women Vote, of Washington, D.C. -- apparently ignored or disregarded state deadlines in seeking to register voters,"
sending in registrations past the January 30 deadline and causing "hundreds of Wisconsin voters who think they registered in advance" to actually not be.

* Michigan officials ended up "fielding tons of calls from confused voters" after Women's Voices did a February mailing to "380,000 unmarried women" -- including numerous deceased voters and even more that were already registered. Sarah Johnson of Women's Voices "seemed confused by the confusion," the Lansing
State Journal reported.

* A 1.5 million-piece Women's Voices mailing in Florida falsely stated: "To comply with state voting requirements, please return the enclosed application." Pasco County's elections supervisor called it "disingenuous"; another said it created "a lot of unnecessary panic on behalf of the voters," reported local newspapers. Sarah Johnson of Women's Voice said, "I'm sorry to hear that."

* By March, Women's Voices was backing off the erroneous "registration is required" language, but there were still problems. For example, a mailing in Arkansas allowed that "registering to vote is voluntary," but a clerk in Washington County reported that "the majority sent back to the county come from registered voters, causing needless labor for office employees."

Problems with the group's tactics have also been documented in Louisiana, Kentucky and Ohio.In each state, the Women's Voices campaigns have brought the same news and the same themes, again and again: Deceptive claims and misrepresentations of the law -- sometimes even breaking the law. Wildly inaccurate mailing lists, supposedly aimed at "unregistered single women," but in reality reaching many registered voters as well as families, deceased persons and pets. Tactics that confuse voters and potentially disenfranchise them.

For such a sophisticated and well-funded operation, which counts among its ranks some of the country's most seasoned political operatives, such missteps are peculiar, as is the surprise expressed by Women's Voices staff after each controversy.

http://southernstudies.org/facingsouth/2008/04/facing-south-exclusive-dc-nonprofit.asp
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
68. WVWV called registered voters after the mail in reg deadline passed
black registered voters. in fact, they called a pastor who is a voting rights activist
and a democratic party activist in Durham county.

both black.
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #10
26. How do you feel about Richard Mellon Scaife ?
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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:22 AM
Response to Original message
7. This group is one reason we round up our Working Assets/Credo bill every month
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:24 AM
Response to Original message
9. I trust absolutely nothing associated with McClinton--including her "supporters"
no matter how hard they try to impress with overly wordy posts with all kinds of copied & pasted stuff -- because I have seen how they like to ride some wedge issue like Rev. Wright into the ground, make all kinds of ridiculous arguments for why the Hillary train wreck should continue, deny the reality that she is killing the Democratic Party, hold their votes up for ransom, post flamebait crap like "Obama wants to start a race war" and other obsessions about race, etc. etc.

so -- FAIL
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. Excuse me but I have always supported Wright even when Obama's people rejected him this week.
Edited on Sun May-04-08 04:37 AM by McCamy Taylor
Wright is a better man than Obama and Hillary, and the way that Obama and his supporters have treated him is just one of the many things that have convinced me that Obama has no backbone, no true beliefs for which he is willing to take a stand. He was neither politically mature enough to take his pastors advice and make a break from him before running for office to spare Wright and himself the pain of public scrutiny nor was he firm enough in his conviction to stand by his resolve once the press challenged him.

I am not particularly enamored of Clinton. I prefer Edwards. At this point only the Unity Ticket will save the Democratic Party. I believe that Clinton can teach Obama a lot about politics, if he will humble himself a little. And he should make amends with Rev. Wright too. His pastor is probably one of the better influences he has had in his life.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. the only thing Clinton would "teach" Obama as VP is how she would undermine his presidency
--if you're in line for a promotion in a company, and someone else also has a shot at it but works tirelessly to sabotage your chances, spreading false rumors and gossip about you, sucking up to the powers that be with innuendo and outright begging, saying someone from another company would even be better than you -- would you be STUPID enough to appoint that person as your next in line?

I SHOULD FUCKING HOPE NOT! unless you totally clueless, and I give Obama a LOT more credit than that--he is very very classy and deserves a lot better than someone who is going to work behind his back 24/7 to destroy his presidency while her husband sucks the air out of the room and continues the media circus that seems to so animate him. No, this is Obama's presidency, not Hillary and Bill's--they.are.finished.

the "unity" ticket is the stupidest piece of bullshit yet. HILLARY IS AN ANCHOR. She needs to kiss off.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 05:17 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. So you think that it's just fine thatr a man with some degree of influence
such as Wright, perpetrating such crap as the government invented AIDS to kill minorities, is admirable? How about his saying (avec illustration) that Bill Clinton screwed AAs? Or his shot about Hillary having never been called a n****r?? How ironic, after all your high dudgeon about how the Clintons have supposedly been swiftboated on race by Obama. And Hill can't even beat Obama despite having had every advantage at the onset of the primary season.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Ministers all across the country use shocking language to get the attention of
their congregations. I have heard this time after time from preachers in different sects. The only difference is they do not have cameras on them taking them out of context. And while I do not believe AIDs was invented in a lab (it came from African apes) I know that Reagan allowed it to spread and would not fund research for it because the right wing liked to fact that it was killing gays, drug addicts and I would not be at all surprised if they knew it was moving into minority populations. It was going to be a windfall for the drug companies, too, don't forget. They were going to have lots of people to sell meds to.

The main message Wright was giving though was "Don't trust the government" which is a good one.

And as for what he said about the Clintons, again I do not object in a church setting. That is almost like theater. Preachers use a kind of language that is akin to art. They shock for affect, because you have to make an emotional connection sometimes and get to some pretty dark and scary places in people if you want to touch upon their fears and their spiritual troubles.

It is not the same as saying it in a news conference,

I found both of the reverend's talks very enlightening. Of course, I am much more left wing that either Clinton or Obama, and I am a great believer in liberation theology though I am a Buddhist myself.
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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #21
29. So you agree with simulating sexual motions from the pulpit
in front of children and you agree with his statement that "Black girls get raped while White girls give it up"? I will not deny that the latter stemmed from lengthy media focus on the White girl in Aruba, but how did the good Rev know she went to Aruba to "give it up." That last statement is not part of Liberation Theology.
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mucifer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #21
55. Black ministers in the Chicago area are supporting Obama
http://cbs2chicago.com/local/black.pastors.obama.2.714582.html

Chicago Black Ministers Voice Support For Obama
CHICAGO (AP) ― About two dozen Chicago-area black ministers crowded around a small pulpit in a historic African-American church Friday, pledging their support for Barack Obama's presidential campaign despite the candidate's split from outspoken pastor the Rev. Jeremiah Wright.

"We know that there have been controversial matters that have appeared in the news media as relates to the sermons of Rev. Wright," said the Rev. Leon D. Finney Jr. of the Metropolitan Apostolic Community Church in Chicago. At the news conference, ministers refused to specifically speak about Wright.

"We're not here to comment on the sermons of Rev. Wright," Finney said. "As a matter of fact we want to make sure that we help to turn the interest and focus not on Rev. Wright or what he said, but on the real issues."
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susankh4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #15
28. Wright may be a better man than Obama.
Edited on Sun May-04-08 06:34 AM by susankh4
And he certainly has the markings of a spiritual leader for our times.

But... we need him to take up the Kingian, Gandhian message of non-violent resistance NOW if he is going to stop the circular firing squad.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #28
76. Did you listen to Wright? He preached reconciliation. There was only love in his talk
Edited on Sun May-04-08 04:55 PM by McCamy Taylor
To get to love you have to allow people to work out their anger. As with the stages of grief. A preacher can do this from the pulpit by taking the flock through the stages of the grieving process with his sermon. He can allow them to experience "anger" through fiery rhetoric---and since that is an uncomfortable state, they are all the happier to finally reach the mystical revelation of love which is the ultimate goal of liberation theology's message.

That is why it was a joke when Fox took his words out of context.

Please read Leonardo Boff's Saint Francis: A Model for Human Liberation It is an excellent first book on liberation theology and since it addresses the issue of poverty it is very easy to get the point without the complexities of race getting in the way.

And then read Brother Malcolm's autobiography. He spends a long time in denial and anger before he finally has his mystical revelation in Mecca. All Rev. Wright does is attempt to do through words what it took Brother Malcolm a lifetime (and a prison stay) to accomplish.

Sigh. Maybe it helps that I am a Buddhist. One of the sayings of Zen is "The Buddha is a dried shit stick" Another is "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." I am sure that those sounds pretty strange to some of you, too, but they are central to Zen Buddhist thinking, and Rev. Wright understands them.

Words are just signs. We invest them with meaning. When Wright says something crude from the pulpit, he challenges us to re-invent ourselves and our way of looking at the world. That is something we all could stand to do.
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susankh4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #76
81. Yes. I have.
Listened to quite a bit of it. I find it lacking of humility.

But then the brand of Liberation Theology I am most familiar with is that which I grew into in the 70s. The Catholic Worker variety. Ala Dorothy Day. And Rev. Wright is no Dorothy Day.

I also grew up within a family of clerics. And I have to say... I think there are things that should simply not be said from the pulpit. In context or out... they are entirely too prone to misinterpretation. An example, from Wright's teahings, is the "riding dirty" sermon. I simply can't go there.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #15
49. ?!? eh?
Obama's pastor threw him under the bus...and Obama should make amends? Wright could have supported Obama instead of undermining him. He could have been mature enough to see that Obama's candidacy can do a lot for healing the racial divide. Instead Wright dismissed him as merely "a politician." Whatever Wright used to be, he comes off as an arrogant opportunist now. He is invested in continuing the divisions of the past. Obama was right to disassociate from him.

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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:36 AM
Response to Original message
14. Good job!
That's the kind of logic that got us Bush in the first place.
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susankh4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 05:01 AM
Response to Original message
17. Hang in there, McCamy.
Edited on Sun May-04-08 05:02 AM by susankh4
Your post makes total sense.

This will all be over with soon enough... and we can stop the inner sniping.

I try to write off alot of the Obama supporters accusations as inexperience. Many of them are new to the voting process and they don't yet know who their friends are.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. I've been voting for 44 years. My first vote was for Lyndon B. Johnson
-- are you saying I should think of Hillary-bush-lover-Clinton as "my friend"??

:rofl:

that's some "friend" we Democrats have: a "friend" who spreads gossip and outright lies about one of her own team members, does backroom deals with South American dictators, sends her goons out to her rival's closed events to look for dirt that she can pretend she didn't have any hand in spreading, backstabs, makes off-handed, qualified remarks like "not that I know of," implying teammate is somehow connected with "terrorists," drives nonissues into the ground--all the while hiding her own dirty laundry of dominionist cult affiliation and rorporate payola-grubbing. A "team member" and "friend" who doesn't care who is destroyed as long as SHE is in power.

I've worked with people like that before. They were ugly and insufferable. They were transparent kiss-asses who most usually got what they deserved in the end: the ridicule and disdain of everybody else in the company, after they had backstabbed enough people.

Many of Obama's supporters are young and inexperienced, but that doesn't mean their nose for shit isn't as good as anybody else's.
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susankh4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. No. I am saying you should act your age.
And quit rolling on the floor laughing.

We are in the midst of a serious movement within the Dem party. And the circular firing squad is not funny.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. yes, a serious movement to wrest control away from the corporatists.
and I am serious as a heart attack. We on the winning side are sick of Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton hiding each other's dirty laundry and propelling the U.S. into imperialist wars.
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susankh4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Well, good for you...
Edited on Sun May-04-08 07:34 AM by susankh4
but the hammer has yet to fall.

Remember this:

http://www.wellesley.edu/Polisci/wj/Vietnam/fourdead.html

Thirty eight years ago today?

Look, not every Clinton supporter is a "corporatist." Some of us just don't want to go back there.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. how ironic, then--you absolutely do not get it at all about Clinton, then, do you?
Edited on Sun May-04-08 07:53 AM by ima_sinnic
since she is so gung-ho to obliterate other countries, why should she care about a few antiwar demonstrators being shot? she is the antithesis of peaceful solutions. she is an imperialist war monger. she will do everything in her power to protect her paymasters, the corporations who want to overrun other countries. she is what those people who died were fighting against. sheesh, wake up!
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susankh4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #36
47. You are wrong. And you do not get it.
Edited on Sun May-04-08 09:06 AM by susankh4
We all want change. But, moderation matters. As does kindness and compassion.

You, my friend, may well be stoking a painful revolution. Only this time... we have no MLK. No one is calling for non-violent resistance.

Every revolution has it's backlash. The more painful the revolution... the more profound the lashing.

If you are one of the elders in this movement, as you say you are, it would be wise for you to help your younger compadres understand the difference between those who support their mission (but call for a moderate approach) vs. those who are totally against changing entrenched interests.

Hillary and her supporters are not the enemy.
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HooptieWagon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #33
59. Was Hillary still a Young Republican then?
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susankh4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #59
61. What would that matter... even if she was?
Abe Lincoln was a republican.

Parties change. So do their members.

Unless they are stuck in the 60s and can't grow up....
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
70. write off? how about "writing off" the NC Atty Gen's statement: the calls were illegal
what part of illegal do you not get?

what part of WVWV calling REGISTERED BLACK VOTERS and telling them that they
need to register by mail(after the deadline to register by mail)?

what part of WVWV not telling these voters (who didn't need to register by the way) that
same day registration was available during early voting (which is when the calls were made)?
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 06:18 AM
Response to Original message
23. And the point of encouraging people to register AFTER the deadline would be?
:shrug:
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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Not after the deadline, in time for the GE
Many young unmarried, rural/poor/women with kids and three jobs do not have time to vote in the primaries and often simply forget due to lack of time to get information or they just don;t register at all. But if you can get them registered in time for the GE, then you have them to vote when it counts more.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #27
72. during our early voting for primary - and telling voters they weren't registered
inexcusable.
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Arkansas Granny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #23
31. As stated above, it was too late to register to vote in the primaries,
but they could still register to vote in the GE.

"there is always a spike in voter registration around primaries AFTER the registration deadline has passed. this is the best time to register voters. research confirms this. around primaries people are reminded that they need to register in time for the general"
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 06:28 AM
Response to Original message
25. How do you feel about Richard Mellon Scaife ?
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susankh4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. I don't give a damn about him.
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. You really should give a damn about him.
I hope you remember how instrumental he was for many years in republican dirty politics. And I really hope you give a damn about why he is supporting Hillary Clinton now.
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susankh4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. He's just another player.
And his world view is different than mine.

I don't give a damn about him.

I do, however, wish that Dems would stop attacking other Dems by broad-brushing them as holding the same views as their acquaintances. If you want to pit Scaife against Farrakan in this game .... go ahead. The GOP is dying for you to draw that comparison.
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #35
93. You really should.
I'm just saying. He's a VERY strange bedfellow who has endorsed Hillary. Farrakan? That's ridiculous. Fund raisers and endorsements against knowing someone who knows someone?
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susankh4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-06-08 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #93
98. So let me get this straight...
I should be worried about who endorses Hillary. But not about who endorses Barack?

Sure. Whatever.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #25
78. How do you feel about Tony Rezko? What does that have to do with this?
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
37. Deceptive and illegal are just that...deceptive and illegal.
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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
38. Roy Cooper is the AG of NC, my state, and I'll leave this issue up to him, thank you. n/t
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #38
42. Well said
:-)
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
40. there is no one to blame because it never happened
Edited on Sun May-04-08 08:11 AM by madrchsod
...this story is a complete fabrication.

there`s nothing that we can do because there was nothing to begin with.

it is time to move on ..
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #40
53. The calls have been recorded..
the group has admitted they did it. What's wrong with the facts?


AG: Recent Robo-Calls On Voting Info. Are Illegal
Wednesday, Apr 30, 2008 - 10:00 PM Updated: 11:18 PM

By Steve Sbraccia
General Assignment Reporter
WNCN-TV

RALEIGH, N.C. -- Thousands of North Carolinians have received automated phone calls in the last few days that state officials said broke the law

As the complaints began to pile up, those cataloging them began to notice a pattern where certain groups seemed to be targeted.The situation was brought to the attention of Attorney General Roy Cooper’s office. He said those automated phone calls are illegal.

“They don't identify the group sponsoring the call, nor do they give the recipient info as to who they need to contact to stop the calls from coming,” said Cooper.
---------------------------------------

“A lot of the complaints came from African-American voters,” said Chris Kromm of the Institute for Southern Studies. “When ee heard a lot of the complaints were coming from African-Americans, that really raised a red flag for us.”

Kromm also said the institute's research indicates the Women's Voice group has a number of interesting connections to Bill Clinton.

“They claim they're a non-profit, non partisan organization. But, its president is a recent donor to Hill-Pac, a big Hillary funding group. The executive director worked for Bill Clinton in his ‘92 campaign and the lawyer for the organization is the lawyer who defended Clinton during the impeachment crisis in
the 90's,” said Kromm


FACING SOUTH EXCLUSIVE:
D.C. nonprofit aimed at women voters behind deceptive N.C. robo-calls
By Chris Kromm
Facing South

The D.C.-based nonprofit, led by well-connected Washington operatives, claims in a press release they sent to Facing South that the North Carolina calls are part of a 24-state effort targeted at a list of 3 million voters, especially unmarried women. The robo-calls, which never mention Women's Voices, are followed by mailings that include information on how to register to vote. They plan to mail some 276,000 packets in North Carolina alone.

But since last November, in at least 11 states nationwide, Women's Voices -- sometimes working through its Voter Participation Center project -- has developed a checkered reputation, drawing rebukes from leading election officials and complaints from thousands of would-be voters as a result of their secretive tactics, deceptive mailings and calls, and penchant for skirting or violating the law. For example:

* In Arizona last November, election officials were "inundated with complaints" after Women's Voices sent a mailing erroneously claiming that recipients were "required" to mail back an enclosed voter registration form. Many who received the mailing were already registered; the mailing also gave the wrong registration date. Secretary of State Jan Brewer denounced the group's tactics as "misleading and deceptive." A similar mailing in Colorado that month " fire and caused confusion," according to a state press release.

* In Wisconsin, state officials singled out Women's Voices for misleading and possibly disenfranchising voters, stating in a press release : "One group in particular -- Women's Voices. Women Vote, of Washington, D.C. -- apparently ignored or disregarded state deadlines in seeking to register voters,"
sending in registrations past the January 30 deadline and causing "hundreds of Wisconsin voters who think they registered in advance" to actually not be.

* Michigan officials ended up "fielding tons of calls from confused voters" after Women's Voices did a February mailing to "380,000 unmarried women" -- including numerous deceased voters and even more that were already registered. Sarah Johnson of Women's Voices "seemed confused by the confusion," the Lansing
State Journal reported.

* A 1.5 million-piece Women's Voices mailing in Florida falsely stated: "To comply with state voting requirements, please return the enclosed application." Pasco County's elections supervisor called it "disingenuous"; another said it created "a lot of unnecessary panic on behalf of the voters," reported local newspapers. Sarah Johnson of Women's Voice said, "I'm sorry to hear that."

* By March, Women's Voices was backing off the erroneous "registration is required" language, but there were still problems. For example, a mailing in Arkansas allowed that "registering to vote is voluntary," but a clerk in Washington County reported that "the majority sent back to the county come from registered voters, causing needless labor for office employees."

Problems with the group's tactics have also been documented in Louisiana, Kentucky and Ohio.In each state, the Women's Voices campaigns have brought the same news and the same themes, again and again: Deceptive claims and misrepresentations of the law -- sometimes even breaking the law. Wildly inaccurate mailing lists, supposedly aimed at "unregistered single women," but in reality reaching many registered voters as well as families, deceased persons and pets. Tactics that confuse voters and potentially disenfranchise them.

For such a sophisticated and well-funded operation, which counts among its ranks some of the country's most seasoned political operatives, such missteps are peculiar, as is the surprise expressed by Women's Voices staff after each controversy.

http://southernstudies.org/facingsouth/2008/04/facing-south-exclusive-dc-nonprofit.asp
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
46. This OP has been awarded the...
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populistdriven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
48. pot meet kettle
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
50. Here is what the "people of North Carolina"...
Including the Attorney General are upset about. Get over the idea that only "Obama Supporters" get upset at this shit.


AG: Recent Robo-Calls On Voting Info. Are Illegal
Wednesday, Apr 30, 2008 - 10:00 PM Updated: 11:18 PM

By Steve Sbraccia
General Assignment Reporter
WNCN-TV

RALEIGH, N.C. -- Thousands of North Carolinians have received automated phone calls in the last few days that state officials said broke the law

As the complaints began to pile up, those cataloging them began to notice a pattern where certain groups seemed to be targeted.The situation was brought to the attention of Attorney General Roy Cooper’s office. He said those automated phone calls are illegal.

“They don't identify the group sponsoring the call, nor do they give the recipient info as to who they need to contact to stop the calls from coming,” said Cooper.
---------------------------------------

“A lot of the complaints came from African-American voters,” said Chris Kromm of the Institute for Southern Studies. “When ee heard a lot of the complaints were coming from African-Americans, that really raised a red flag for us.”

Kromm also said the institute's research indicates the Women's Voice group has a number of interesting connections to Bill Clinton.

“They claim they're a non-profit, non partisan organization. But, its president is a recent donor to Hill-Pac, a big Hillary funding group. The executive director worked for Bill Clinton in his ‘92 campaign and the lawyer for the organization is the lawyer who defended Clinton during the impeachment crisis in
the 90's,” said Kromm


FACING SOUTH EXCLUSIVE:
D.C. nonprofit aimed at women voters behind deceptive N.C. robo-calls
By Chris Kromm
Facing South

The D.C.-based nonprofit, led by well-connected Washington operatives, claims in a press release they sent to Facing South that the North Carolina calls are part of a 24-state effort targeted at a list of 3 million voters, especially unmarried women. The robo-calls, which never mention Women's Voices, are followed by mailings that include information on how to register to vote. They plan to mail some 276,000 packets in North Carolina alone.

But since last November, in at least 11 states nationwide, Women's Voices -- sometimes working through its Voter Participation Center project -- has developed a checkered reputation, drawing rebukes from leading election officials and complaints from thousands of would-be voters as a result of their secretive tactics, deceptive mailings and calls, and penchant for skirting or violating the law. For example:

* In Arizona last November, election officials were "inundated with complaints" after Women's Voices sent a mailing erroneously claiming that recipients were "required" to mail back an enclosed voter registration form. Many who received the mailing were already registered; the mailing also gave the wrong registration date. Secretary of State Jan Brewer denounced the group's tactics as "misleading and deceptive." A similar mailing in Colorado that month " fire and caused confusion," according to a state press release.

* In Wisconsin, state officials singled out Women's Voices for misleading and possibly disenfranchising voters, stating in a press release : "One group in particular -- Women's Voices. Women Vote, of Washington, D.C. -- apparently ignored or disregarded state deadlines in seeking to register voters,"
sending in registrations past the January 30 deadline and causing "hundreds of Wisconsin voters who think they registered in advance" to actually not be.

* Michigan officials ended up "fielding tons of calls from confused voters" after Women's Voices did a February mailing to "380,000 unmarried women" -- including numerous deceased voters and even more that were already registered. Sarah Johnson of Women's Voices "seemed confused by the confusion," the Lansing
State Journal reported.

* A 1.5 million-piece Women's Voices mailing in Florida falsely stated: "To comply with state voting requirements, please return the enclosed application." Pasco County's elections supervisor called it "disingenuous"; another said it created "a lot of unnecessary panic on behalf of the voters," reported local newspapers. Sarah Johnson of Women's Voice said, "I'm sorry to hear that."

* By March, Women's Voices was backing off the erroneous "registration is required" language, but there were still problems. For example, a mailing in Arkansas allowed that "registering to vote is voluntary," but a clerk in Washington County reported that "the majority sent back to the county come from registered voters, causing needless labor for office employees."

Problems with the group's tactics have also been documented in Louisiana, Kentucky and Ohio.In each state, the Women's Voices campaigns have brought the same news and the same themes, again and again: Deceptive claims and misrepresentations of the law -- sometimes even breaking the law. Wildly inaccurate mailing lists, supposedly aimed at "unregistered single women," but in reality reaching many registered voters as well as families, deceased persons and pets. Tactics that confuse voters and potentially disenfranchise them.

For such a sophisticated and well-funded operation, which counts among its ranks some of the country's most seasoned political operatives, such missteps are peculiar, as is the surprise expressed by Women's Voices staff after each controversy.

http://southernstudies.org/facingsouth/2008/04/facing-south-exclusive-dc-nonprofit.asp
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #50
54. "Get over the idea that only 'Obama Supporters' get upset" You're asking the OP to stop distorting
Edited on Sun May-04-08 09:30 AM by ProSense
It'll never happen. When people deals in BS to the point of embarrassment, it's almost certain that they have no shame.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #54
60. I know it's only being done to..
score political points, but the idea that "Democrats" are condoning this shit is upsetting..but then so has all the other shit that came before. Who needs Republicans when we have these "Democrats"?
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
56. McCamy thinks its A-OK to upset voters
or something.

You seem to forget that our state officials are not manufacturing this commotion. They are upset because WE are upset. That's generally how we want representative democracy to work.

The anger is coming from the voters of this state, you know, the ones WVWV says they want to help.



WVWV either has a piss poor business sense, ignoring local voter registration laws, or they are doing it on purpose. Which is it? NC has very liberal voter registration. You could walk in even as late as YESTERDAY and register, then vote in the primary and be registered for the GE. The robo calls could have helped us by reiiterating that fact. But WVWV didn't do that. Instead they called people, many of whom were already registered, and thereby making people think there was something wrong when in fact there wasn't.

What is the point of that escapade, pray do tell?

Right now, no body knows. And the fact they they have repeating this "mistake" in several other states is creepy, not confidence inspiring. I'm very happy to let the state AG and the NCNAACP decide which it is.




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RTBerry Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
57. One can but smile at the veils at work in many of these responses. 
Folk who can't get it, won't.  Fortunately, one need only
break through to a single reader in order to deem any OP a
success.

Thanks for another great post.
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kid a Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
58. fanatics will always justify illegal activity for the greater good of their immediate agenda - ELECT
- not far off from "yea we blew up one abortion clinic, but we are saving 100,000s of lives.

ELECT THE GODDESS OF PEACE (by any means possible)

:puke:
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
63. It amazes me that the poster on DU who always
has the most links in her story,

including irrelevent links to greek philosophers and other esoteric references that have no bearing on the OP except to give it its unique pretentious flavor,

never seems to be able to find a link when leveling a charge against Obama.


quote
Why is the Obama campaign attacking a legitimate voter registration/get out the vote organization which benefits the Democratic Party for a short term gain like the possibility of a few percentage points in North Carolina
unquote

and the link for Obama's attack is where exactly? I need a map to plow through your turgid essays.


Your intellectual dishonesty is breathtaking, but you sure do have a lot of links. Just never a link where it really counts, like tying Obama to the criticism you denounce.

You do remain however the Queen of the Strawman
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DeanDem10 Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
64. Sorry, but
McCamy, I really believe you are a superb blogger, one of the very best in the whole country, IMHO. However, your last couple of journal entries have really sounded desperate (on behalf of your preference). First, your "Tea Cup Memo" article suggested that there is anything even reasonably comparable between maligning a candidate's character and trivializing him as Clinton has done, and the so-called tea-cup memos. BOTH sides send emails and pres releases to the media. There is nothing wrong with that, unless there is innuendo, untruths, or character assassination. The teacup memos were none of these, but rather normal op work.

Second, by your trying to lay this latest WFWF controversy at Obama's feet, you are not factually accurate. Local (NC) Media and local non-partisan groups led the way here. We here in Virginia have had to deal with numerous voter suppression tactics in recent elections, particularly when Sen. James Webb ran against George Allen. And in states where such a thing has gone down, obviously, we might tend to smell a rat, so to speak. But to add this to your laundry list of purported outrages you perceive by Obama supporters is really unfair.

I think that you are just tired and angry. (As are we all.) If you put yourself in the shoes of supporters who have been openly mocked by for supporting Obama by Hillary (no, this wasn't from the evil press, and it is to be sure--I heard her). HRC has mocked our candidate, She and Bill have trivialized him. We have watched Bill Clinton rip into Obama, in SC and elsewhere. We have heard their surrogates do likewise in all manner of insulting comments. We have witnessed his patriotism attacked. Hillary has raise an eyebrow in tacit agreement with one network stooge who attacked Obama on the matter of Wright. She has injected Farrakhan and Bill Ayers into this when neither had anything to do with this race. Why? Does this not sound to you like fanning innuendo and character assassination? And as for Obama's patriotism and love of country, no one who runs for president at this level should ever be questioned about that. It should go without saying. Sydney Blumenthal (and his daily emails to the media) even trotted out a kid Obama knew in HS. That's supposed to be a problem now that Obama is 46? Seriously, do you think character assassination is fair, reasonable treatment? And why are you validating HRC's efforts here?

You clearly feel passionately about this race. But the HRC campaign and it's high-placed surrogates like Blumenthal are mis-serving this country. And it would show so much class if HRC supporters would cry foul and tell her the campaign goes too far.

PS Just because a few of us don't have a lot of posts doesn't make us a troll. I regularly read a number of journals here especially yours, Nance Greggs, MadFloridian, kpete, Will Pitt, and more. They are all different in perspective, tone and subject. But you don't have to diss those who are relatively new just because we do not agree. And, no I don't intend to leave after the election. I wouldn't think of it. I will continue to read your blogs, which most of the time are tremendously more fair than your last two. I look forward to reading you again in a few days. Peace.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. your reply led me to your journal and a wish that you posted more
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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #64
87. Thanks for your level headed comments
I especially liked your low posts doesn't equal troll comment. Until January or so, I was a lurker on DU, having not posted a thing since the Kerry campaign. My count is getting near 1,000 by default.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #64
97. Thank you.
You just summed up why I'm done with this place.
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MediaBabe Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
71. No good deed goes unpunished

Give it up. The Obama supporters here at DU clearly prove that nothing will satisfy them. Read the replies. No effort for democracy can be good if it does not start and end with Obama's name and include a guaranteed a vow to vote only for him.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #71
77. You forgot to add that you're not allowed to say
anything negative. God help them if or when he gets the nomination and the GOP starts in on Obama.

Look at all the nastiness that was thrown at me after they started an "Obama was on food stamps when he was a child" and I pointed out that the timeline based on Obama's wikipedia entry which clearly showed that he couldn't have been on them more than 2 or 3 years before the age of 5.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. I do not write to make friends or influence people. I write what needs to be written.
When I see mass insanity at DU---like people attacking get out the vote efforts--I just wonder if they have lost sight of something. I think I know what part of the problem is. There are a lot of people who are convinced that because Obama's father was from Africa he will not get a fair shake. Therefore, they are willing to stoop to dirty tricks on his behalf that they would never use in a normal Democratic primary. His "victim" status allows them to justify any lie, any trick, and bias---because they are convinced that the whole system is aligned against him. They are giving him political affirmative action. That whole "she is stealing our victimhood" rant against Clinton from back around the New Years was very revealing.

When I look at Obama I see a guy who is half white American, half west African who has a Harvard law degree and who is a Senator from Illinois. I see someone who came from gentile poverty---the kind of family that scrimps and saves to send their children to the finest schools. The kind of family that makes sure that their kids are educated from the moment that they can talk and that they know that they are going to be one of life's winners. There is a big difference between the poverty of the scholar and the poverty of the working class. Someone who goes overseas to do anthropology research or to work in the Peace Corp has little in the way of material goods, but that person has tremendous self esteem. They know that they are something. The whole world gives that person praise. I see a millionaire and best selling author who is healthy. I do not see one of the wretched of the earth.

I am very familiar with "graduate school poverty". It is not the kind of hopeless, despairing soul numbing poverty that paralyzes so many Americans. So, when Obama tries to turn that into the poverty of families who have been oppressed for generations by lack of education and by exposure to toxic chemicals and by working in brain numbing jobs that cause early death I think to myself "Who is he trying to fool? Why can't he just be himself?"

Yes, Obama experiences racial discrimination. And Hillary experiences sexism. It may not look like it, because she gets to live with a White man as his wife and that does not necessarily look like slavery, but think about it. She had to be the First Lady while he ran for office. And get scolded because she did not make cookies. And wear pink. And Michelle Obama has to be First Lady while Barack runs for office. And the press laughs at her, too. They take cheap shots at Michelle they would never take at Barack. Sucks to be both of them. I will bet that both of them wish sometimes that someone would take their victimhood. Please.

Racism, sexism, ethnic discrimination are all markers for socioeconomic oppression of the poor and working class. And by allowing themselves to be divided Blacks against women, the Democrats have fallen for one of the corporate elite's oldest and most successful ploys.

The Unity Ticket is what the IWW would have advocated. It was why Joe Hill died. Unity scared the crap out of the bosses.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. And the fact is, that he's done very well
as far as creating a really good life for himself. And I have no doubt that although he may have had some help along the way as do most who climb some of the taller ladders of success he also worked very hard to get there. I'm not too sure I agree with the genteel poverty statement, but there is a lot to can be respected about him. Unfortunately, his supporters aren't satisfied with what actually is a very respectable reality. They want fantasy because it sounds even better and unfortunately, the GOP won't let them get away with this stuff in the general election. It could cost Obama the White House. I think Michelle was a lot of potential as a First Lady if she remains true to herself and doesn't let herself get typecast as a stereotypical First Lady.
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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #79
88. Grammar police here
Did you mean "gentile" poverty or "genteel" poverty. One word refers to non-Jews; the other refers to aristocratic. I assume you mean genteel in this case, meaning aristocratic.
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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #79
89. You accuse Obama of elitism and genteel poverty
But fail to point out that Hillary grew up in an upper middle class family and has never known poverty of any kind. I have a lot more respect for someone who grew up poor and managed to get into an elite university than someone who has no real idea what it means to be poor or working class. I'll take Barack Obama over Hillary Clinton any day on that account.

PS: I grew up poor on Tobacco Road - I might have some knowledge what it actually means to be poor.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #89
92. And so the myth continues to be built...
Edited on Sun May-04-08 11:16 PM by cornermouse
Problem is, if he's the nominee the GOP won't let him get away with it.
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Lord Helmet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
83. the Clintons are behind the attempted voter suppression
they tried it in Nevada, Iowa, New Hampshire, and Texas with proxy lawsuits

why do you keep making excuses for their shitty behavior?
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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
84. Yet another turgid and disingenuous post from McAmy Taylor
You fail to mention that this group has not only been accused of wrongdoing in NC, but also in Virginia and Wisconsin. The state of Virginia went so far as to investigate them as an identity theft scam. You fail to mention the 'inconvenient' timing in multiple states, not just in this one, and the fact that this inconvenient timing just happens to benefit Senator Clinton's campaign. I waded through this turgid piece, and all I could find was spin from WVWV.

I say the NAACP is right to file a complaint against this group.

PS: Oh, I forgot to mention the SCOTUS red herring. Yes, we should denounce the Supreme Court's outrageous decision, but like it or not, Indiana's voter ID law is now legal by fiat of the Supreme Court. There is nothing we can do during this primary season. We can and should write our congresspeople to ask them to pass a law invalidating the Supreme Court decision.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. yeah but she work ole Joe Hill into a reply that should be worth
double pretentious points.
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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. I dreamed I saw McAmy Taylor last night... N/T
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #86
91. for sure.
nothing turns me off more than pretentious, wordy, faux researched self-important missives that actually only tart up anger and hate.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
94. Hollering down a rain barrel.
That has become the definition of argument on DU. Each side ignores all the evidence that proves them incorrect. Each side only accepts evidence or reports that praise their candidate. The problem is the "each side" issue. The republicans have successfully divided the party into two hostile camps. Some of those who have been at this a while saw it coming, see it happening, and talk about it. Those blinded by MSM infused hatred and animosity and those who are new to this stuff are easy prey for the neocon media. They love MSM when is supports them. It hates MSM when it is against them. What they don't seem to grasp is that MSM doesn't support any democrat.


McCamy, thank you for trying.
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Texas Hill Country Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
95. k & r
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
96. I FOUND LAMONT WILLIAMS >
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5824426
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