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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:48 AM
Original message
obama voted three times for gas tax holiday in illinois
Obama took a different view on the issue when he was an Illinois legislator, voting at least three times in favor of temporarily lifting the state's 5 percent sales tax on gasoline.
The tax holiday was finally approved during a special session in June of 2000, when Illinois motorists were furious that gas prices had just topped $2 a gallon in Chicago.
During one debate, he joked that he wanted signs on gas pumps in his district to say, "Senator Obama reduced your gasoline prices."
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hLPqTxd4Fe7e5EymHU-kTUgweRDQD90BPHC01
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
1. What are the differences in terms of state and national gas taxes...
...and what the revenue is used for?

I'm embarassed to admit that I don't know.

:blush:
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Don't know, but there is this difference
I can see where a state, seeing no relief coming from the federal government, might enact a short term measure since they lack the ability to do something more comprehensive. But on a national level, the better approach -- the approach that shows more leadership and long term thinking -- is to go for solutions that aren't 3 month band aids.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
21. IL uses a sales tax for gas. 5% I believe. So as gas goes up, so does the amount of money paid
out in taxes by the motorist.

Federal taxes are static, 18.5 cents a gal. on gasoline 24cents a gal on diesel.

When Il tried it, they did a study afterward and found it didn't work, that savings to motorist couldn't be shown and that the state was
suffering economically as a result.


Obama later voted against making it permanent, because it didn't work.

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1776Forever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #21
85. That is the difference here - Who has the real experience? Obama!
:thumbsup:
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mucifer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
2. We have the highest gas tax in the nation in Chicago.
Edited on Sun May-04-08 08:51 AM by mucifer
Politics is local. You are simplifying the issue.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
3. and then he voted against making it permanent. And, by the way, where is HRC's legislation
If HRC is serious, why hasn't she introduced a bill to enact her gas tax holiday? Less than three weeks to Memorial Day, you'd think if this was more than an empty campaign gesture, at least she'd introduce something. McCain has.
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Divernan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. She'll draft that bill right after she finishes writing the one giving Guam the vote.
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TheFarseer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #7
65. is she going to promise Puerto Rico the vote too?
Maybe she will promise Oregon that their votes will count twice?
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Divernan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #65
87. And what about the District of Columbia getting votes in Congress?
Edited on Sun May-04-08 10:59 AM by Divernan
Love their license plates - no taxation without representation.
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TheFarseer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #87
92. actually, they should. that's ridiculous n/t
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #87
120. Huum, have not heard her say a peep about DC
Edited on Mon May-05-08 09:43 AM by goclark
Very interesting ~~

Speaks volumes.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #7
115. She submitteed the Legislation to CONGRESS last FRIDAY--before Guam.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #115
121. Link? and are you talking about gas tax relief or guam?
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #121
124. i am talking about the gas legislation. Google is your friend.
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zabet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
5. IOKIYO
It did not work when he was in Illinois because they made no good decisions on provisions to pay for it and the distributors got the savings and sold gas at the same price as before. This in Illinois was not carefully planned nor well thought out, yet, Obama approved of it. :eyes:
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mucifer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. hmmm interesting but now it's ok for hillary to do the same?
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zabet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #10
89. She has a better plan that Illinois...
if people could try a little objectivity and quit playing identity politics, they might be surprised if they would compare the bill in Illinois that Barack voted for and the plan Hillary has proposed.

Just saying that a lot of the people here do not care what the issue is, their hate for the other candidate overwhelms them and robs them of their civility and objectivity.
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #89
106. What's better about this plan? Nothing.
Sacrifice our crumbling roads and bridges, so Joe Sixpack can save about $30? Don't spend it all in one place. And there's nothing in it to prevent the oil companies from jacking up the price of gas even more, so Joe Sixpack end up saving nothing, while the oil companies rake in yet more record profits./

Hillary/McCain's gas tax holiday is idiotic.
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. That might be precisely why he opposes it now
Experience means making mistakes and learning from them rather than blindly following ideology.
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zabet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #13
91. Oh yeah?
Tell that to Ben Franklin, who kept trying after failures, tell that to Einstien, hell, tell it to every person who has not given and kept trying until they got it right. Don't give up on what is basically a good idea but failed in Illinois because it was poorly planned and poorly controlled and poorly executed.
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #91
114. Ben Franklin and Edison learned from each mistake
And modified accordingly.

Bad analogy.

A good analogy would be making the exact same prototype over and over again and wondering why it doesn't work.

Gas tax holidays do not work....best to go with something different.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #5
24. Yes, and since it didn't work as advertised he voted against making it permanent. Experience
isn't a bad thing.

If only Hillary had the same experience she probably wouldn't be pushing McCain's hair-brained idea now.
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zabet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #24
94. If every brilliant scientist researching cancer quit after they failed..
well, they wouldn't be trying to find a cure any more....they haven't so far...so why try.

Illinois' plan failed due to poor planning, poor control, and poor execution....all a result of not thoroughly researching it. Hillary's plan is different than the Illinois plan. Try reading both of them and comparing the differences.
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #94
107. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.
Scientists don't just do the same thing over and over. They constantly change their experiments around. They try new stuff. If one particular experiment fails, they change their methods.

Obama's doing this - he realized the gas tax holiday plans aren't working, so now he's switched to different things.

Hillary's trying the same political trick again, even after it's been shown not to work, and is shilling it again - that's our country's insanity right there.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #94
113. Maybe Hillary can make a go of leeches? They tried that too, but they know more now than then.

Hill never mentioned here well planned out plan until last week that she wants to implement in a few more weeks. (Summer starts June 21st) She doesn't trust economists, so who is planning it? Her political director? Her brother?

What kind of controls has Hillary proposed?

How would it be executed? I hope it's better done than her campaign plan. She planned that this would be over on Feb 5th, remember. I guess her failure to execute her campaign plan may have taught her a thing or two.

When did Hillary thoroughly research it? It that what she's been reading at 3 am?

Why hasn't she bothered to introduce her thoroughly researched plan into the Senate yet? What's she waiting for? When does she plan to introduce it?


Hey, I'm all ears.

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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #113
119. Educate yourself. Hospitals are using leeches for wound therapy. Where you been??
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #5
27. And voted against it when the studies showed it didn't work.
And tell me, do you have a copy of hillary's proposed legislation she has introduced in the senate - I'd like to read her actual plan, the actual legislation.

thanks in advance :hi:

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zabet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #27
95. Go to her website and read about her plan.
I am not your google secretary.

It actually proposed the oil companies eat that cost, of course, stipulations would have to be made that the distributors did not absorb the majority of the savings instead of passing it onto the consumer, as was the intention with Illinois' bill, but, poor planning, poor control, poor execution..equal failure. Just because they didn't get it right the first time, doesn't mean it is a bad idea.

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #95
102. I don't want her plan - I want a link to the legislation Senator
Clinton has introduced or is planning on introducing this week or next week or really soon (while the summer is still the season). She still is a senator and she can still put her words in action, yes?

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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #102
116. She already did last Friday. Let your fingers do the google.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #116
125. I did google and there is no legislation on her web site
you know her official senate web site - there is chatting about it and promises, but I don't see where she has proudly authored anything and I can't find it at the senate's site.
http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/environment/gas.cfm

Just cause she said she did something doesn't mean she did. I mean if she did it, wouldn't it be in her press release section? Or does she run her office as "well" as she has run her campaign?

http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/index.cfm


Since you are so smart, you provide me that link - okie dokie. I'm sure it's right at your fingertips.

By the way, your absence in the below thread is so telling, you don't mind if hillary's folks make blatantly sexist comments about her, do you?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5815774

Where is all that outrage?


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SoxFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #5
71. He also voted to let it expire
Unlike Captain Pantsuit, he's capable of learning from his mistakes.

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zabet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #71
97. ..
Captain Pantsuit? Wow. Devolving down to name calling of presidential candidates. :eyes:

So, why take a good idea that failed and not fix what was wrong with the execution? Maybe Obama will take this stand with a lot of things....maybe he did not want to be troubled to correct the problems and it was easier just to can the idea...You know he had greater aspirations on his mind getting ready to run for the Senate and all. He has made a ladder step every 3 years, alot of times while taking credit for other peoples' work. Just google Emil Jones, Obama's Kingmaker and look at the bills Obama claims that other did the work for...just because Emil said he was 'gonna make me a senator'.
Seeing as he took credit for others works in the Illinois Senate..it might be fair to say, he didn't and wasn't willing to do the work on this himself.
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Kajsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
110. That's exactly what Obama pointed out on ' Meet The Press'
this morning.

He learned from his mistakes.



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washingdem Donating Member (467 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
6. Yes, and he said it was a mistake and that he learned from it. It's part of his POINT.
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KSinTX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
8. And after realizing it doesn't work, killed it.
But the impact of the tax holiday was never clear. A government study could not determine how much of the savings was passed on to motorists. Many lawmakers said their constituents didn't seem to have benefited. They also worried the tax break was pushing the state budget out of balance.

When legislation was introduced to eliminate the tax permanently, Obama voted "no." The effort failed, and the sales tax was allowed to take effect again.


Getting it right in the end, learning from one's mistakes, now THAT's presidential.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
9. perhaps then he knows that it doesn't work nt
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Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. And it didn't work. The tax was something like 42 cents a gallon, but .....
prices jumped right back up to the national average a week after the tax repealed and Illinois lost out on major revenue.
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DAGDA56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
11. Addressed that on MTP...
...you could tell Russert had it as a gotcha question, and Obama beat him to it. As the poster above me indicates, he said it was a mistake and he learned form it...thus opposing the Clinton/McCain gas tax holiday.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. he is allowed to make mistakes. Clinton is vilified for every breath
Edited on Sun May-04-08 09:25 AM by Evergreen Emerald
He sure uses that excuse alot I noticed.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #16
31. She should swallow her pride and ask someone with experience if her tax idea actually works.
It's just not her style though. It's always her way or the highway. Look at how she set back health care reform for 15 years. She could have asked the people who were working for it for the previous 10 years before she came on the national scene, but no, she had to do it all by herself, and we suffered for it, and she never took responsibility for her mistakes. Instead she blamed everyone else.

Obama voted for the IL tax holiday, they studied it and found it didn't work, then he voted against making it permanent.

I'll go with the voice of experience over the voice of pandering any day.
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #16
52. That's part of his experience, 20 years is not wet behind the ears.
He happens to have direct knowledge of this subject and has spoken to it. Clinton & McCain don't have that experience and are being called on it. Heaven forbid we ever speak up when a politician proposes a popular idea that doesn't meet the smell test. No politician is above criticism, nor beyond making a mistake. How they address it, learn, and move on is the real test.
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DAGDA56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #16
68. Both can make mistakes...apparently only he is willing to admit he learned from his...
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
12. kick
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
15. And he learned from his mistake; as he's stated clearly.
That's why he is opposed to Hillary's proposal. He stated after voting for it in Illinois, the numbers showed it did no good whatsoever. At least he can admit he was wrong and learn from it.

Unlike someone else, who voted for the IWR and has recently stated she'd obliterate Iran.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. I thought he was always right on day one or day 365 or whatever. nt
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Really? You've never heard me say that.
Everyone makes mistakes, even presidential candidates. The key is to admit them, learn from them and move on.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. Consider that it is only a terrible bad idea
Edited on Sun May-04-08 09:16 AM by Jim4Wes
if it can be used against your opponent, an appeal to those who are not too hurt by the extra 40 cents a gallon. Consider the politics of both not just one.

After all how bad can a 3 month temporary measure be?

on edit: the federal part of the tax is much lower, 18 cents, sorry.
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. I've looked at both sides and weighed the benefits/costs.
Edited on Sun May-04-08 09:19 AM by sparosnare
For me personally, I'd save 17 bucks and some change over a 3 month period. Nothing really. Of course, others might save enough to pay for an entire tank of gas.

The loss to our highway fund would be in the billions and although Hillary has proposed using an oil profits windfall tax to compensate it, the legislation would never pass Congress and if it did, Bush would veto.

A suspension of the gas tax is a gimmick for votes; nothing more.



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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. You think she would support it without
that part of her proposal?
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #37
42. It's irrelevant though because it's not a viable proposal.
Edited on Sun May-04-08 09:26 AM by sparosnare
She knows this; she isn't stupid. She knows what she's telling people will never come to fruition - it's dishonest.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #42
47. To some the money would matter as you admitted above
there is nothing dishonest about the proposal unless she skews numbers or somehow lies about the reality. The reality of its popularity and therfeore chance to become reality, cannot be known unless the idea is proposed.
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. Do you really think she could get the legislation passed?
Seriously - try to be objective. It's May; do you believe Hillary can get a majority in the House and Congress to buy into her plan and get it passed? So far, she has no support among her colleagues.

And even if THAT were to happen, would Bush sign it into law?

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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #49
54. She has expressed the desire to support folks
struggling to pay for gas over the oil companies. Its a valid position for a Democratic politician to take, just ask Obama circa 2000.
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. Then express that desire; don't make promises that can't be honored. n/t
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #56
60. I don't recall her promising it, more like fighting for it. nt
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #60
63. It's the same thing in the eyes of voters.
She has proposed a specific plan with the clear intent of going to Washington and trying to get the legislation passed. That is a promise.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. You lost me there, seems more like a promise to
fight for it.
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #64
69. LOL - so she'll fight knowing from the outset it will fail? Ah - political theater!
Then she can tell the voters she's fighting for them and none of those horrible people in Congress care about them the way she does. Even though it's an idiotic plan to begin with! Very GOP.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. Certainly if she is fighting those in her party
it is doomed to fail.
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #70
73. Thanks.
I've enjoyed our interchange even though we differ. I've got to go cut the grass now. And incidentally - I was and still am a huge Clark fan. :hi:
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #73
74. ok
cya, :)
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. she doesn't use the highway funds to pay for it. Your lie might work if you repeat it often enough
Hillary Clinton will impose a windfall profits tax on oil companies and use the money to temporarily suspend the 18.4 cent per gallon federal gas tax and the 24.4 cent per gallon diesel tax during the upcoming peak summer driving months. Hillary will ensure that this relief is passed along to consumers by charging the Federal Trade Commission with conducting aggressive oversight. Unlike Senator McCain’s plan, Hillary’s plan will be fully paid for by taking away oil company profits through a windfall profits tax. This will ensure that the Highway Trust Fund is not affected at all by the gas tax suspension, and can continue to support critical repairs and maintenance for our infrastructure and highways. Suspending the gas tax will provide real, immediate assistance to American families and for our economy. Recent testimony before the House of Representatives by the American Trucking Association indicates that even small changes in price can have big impacts. Just a one-penny decrease in the price of diesel annualized over an entire year would save the trucking industry $391 million a year.
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #39
43. Tell me exactly how she will impose a windfall tax on oil companies by June.
Please - I'd really like to hear how she can get it done.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #43
48. shifting your argument?
I'll rest on your lie about using the highway fund.
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #48
53. It's not a lie. Hillary would never get a windfall tax implemented.
Edited on Sun May-04-08 09:41 AM by sparosnare
And by the way, she has proposed using a windfall tax for new energy development - so now she's promised that money to two different funds.

Without a windfall tax which will never happen by June; a gas tax suspension will mean no money going into the highway fund coffers.

You didn't answer my question about how she could get such legislation passed. I didn't think you would.

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #53
57. Then we'll find another funding source
Edited on Sun May-04-08 09:41 AM by bigtree
Sen. Clinton opposed a plan in 2000 for a gas tax holiday because it was financed with transportation funds . . .

"Clinton, whose daughter, Chelsea, joined her on the campaign trail for the first time yesterday in Manhattan, contends that getting rid of the gas tax would eliminate the funding stream for important transportation projects in New York and elsewhere…" Newsday, 6/27/00

"While New York sends $300 million a year to Washington in gas taxes, Clinton said it gets back $477 million in highway funding annually. The first lady said Lazio's plan would have a 'damaging impact' on the state." Associated Press, 6/27/00
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. By June?
Hillary is promising relief by summer. Do you realize how close that is? You still haven't answered my question. I'd like to know how she can get what's she's proposed in her stump speech passed and signed into law. She can't and continuing to tell people it's possible is dishonest.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #58
62. you mean she has to have the votes in hand before she proposes anything?
Your own candidate can't live up to that standard and you know it.
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #62
66. My candidate isn't proposing a gimmick.
Edited on Sun May-04-08 09:50 AM by sparosnare
None of Hillary's colleagues have voiced support of her plan - it's a joke. I am a bit surprised she's doing it because it won't help her with the SDs.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #66
79. It's not an accident that voters don't have any idea of any immediate relief
offered by Obama.

Most voters think we need to do SOMETHING . . .
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #62
78. She should have a reasonable expectation of fulfilling her promise
or else it's a LIE.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
17. Another Hillary poster who conveniently forgot to read or include the facts..
The consumers in Illinois did NOT benefit. There is a different between state and NATIONAL tax. Obama ultimately voted AGAINST the tax holiday in Illinois. "The impact of the tax holiday was never clear.

A government study could not determine how much of the savings was actually passed along to motorists. Many lawmakers said their constituents didn't seem to have benefited. They also worried the tax break was pushing the state budget out of balance.

At the end of Illinois' tax holiday, there was a failed push to eliminate the sales tax permanently. Obama was among those voting against eliminating the tax.

Obama's presidential campaign says the lessons of that Illinois tax holiday influenced his decision to oppose a national tax holiday. The lack of clear results then make him dubious about suspending the national tax now.

In addition, the Illinois tax was paid directly by consumers and increased as gas prices increased. Obama's campaign points out the national tax is a flat 18.4 cents (24.4 cents a gallon for diesel) and, therefore, isn't climbing as gas prices climb. It's also paid by producers, raising more questions about whether they'd pass the full savings along to customers."
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Cheap_Trick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. they didn't forget to read or include the facts
they flat out lied in a feeble attempt to make hillary look better.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #17
32. The Clinton gas tax holiday is financed exclusively through a tax on windfall profits
Edited on Sun May-04-08 09:17 AM by bigtree
. . . of oil companies

Hillary Clinton opposed a plan in 2000 for a gas tax holiday because it was financed with transportation funds.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #32
51. Which she has already promised elsewhere and which she knows she cannot get passed and which GWB
will NEVER sign. Let it go. Even the MSM is calling her out on this pander.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #51
55. you let it go. The ONLY argument you can come up with is that it's politically impossible
what a crock. You're banking on republicans blocking her proposal. And again, I don't believe for a minute that you care at all about the highway fund or any other funding source. You think this is a good political wedge to elevate Obama. He thinks so, too.

The hoot is the extent that you and Obama are willing to go to defeat the measure, or forcast its defeat, just to score your own political points. Frickin hypocrites.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #17
38. ...
During one debate, he joked that he wanted signs on gas pumps in his district to say, "Senator Obama reduced your gasoline prices."
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jaxx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
18. When something doesn't work, do you keep doing it because it's easy?
Or do you swallow your pride and say it was wrong? It takes a big man to admit his original idea was all wet. Thanks for bringing this up......it makes Obama look more and more like the person we need to lead this country. My way or no way? No thanks.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
19. Excellent! The daily "Obama supported gas tax holiday" thread and the subsequent slapdown.
Thanks for yet another daily thread on this subject.

We enjoy the opportunity of telling you a) it doesn't matter what he did years ago because b) he doesn't support one now and c) he learned from his previous folly that it's a bad idea. And every economist agrees.

See you tomorrow!
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KSinTX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Didn't realize this was a recurring theme
When I started posting, there was no response. By the time I'd hit post, I was overwhelmed. Seems folks have this ready to cut and paste it's so repetitive! Thanks for the heads up.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #22
35. For those of us who visit DU every day, it's been a bit wearying.
This must be the fifth day in a row with at least one (and up to five) threads on the same topic.

It happens on big boards. No biggie.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
25. but for him it was genius inspired
The hypocrites in his camp are attacking Clinton for her proposal in a transparent display of cheap politics. The fact that they are attacking Clinton for her proposal and ignoring his support of the same in Illinois makes them the true panderers in this fight.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #25
36. I don't see how you figure. He tried it, it didn't wiork, he voted against making it permanent.
There were other major difference also. IL puts a sales tax on gas , so as the price rises so does the actual amount paid in state sales tax.

Federal taxes are static. 18.5 cents a gallon on gasoline 24 cents on diesel. As gas prices rise the federal tax paid doesn't.

Is Clinton really so prideful that she can't even ask an economist or another legislator who tried it if it works?
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BklnDem75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
28. Which is probably why he's against it now?
He saw it didn't work and now he's against it. Doesn't this back up his argument?
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my3boyz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
29. Oh but Hilly said that Obama did not have experience...he has
only been in politics for a couple of years. He couldn't have possibly voted for anything because he is sooooooooooooooooooooo young and inexperienced!
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cjsmom44 Donating Member (496 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
33. Re: Experience is a good teacher


This is precisely why he is against the Gas Tax Holiday now!

It doesn't work and he knows it!

Hillary is pandering for votes....

Get a clue...

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Undercurrent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #33
41. Exactly! He's been there. Done that. Didn't work.
Edited on Sun May-04-08 09:25 AM by Undercurrent
He learns, unlike most politicians.

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bigdarryl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
40. THATS WHY HE KNOWS IT DOESN'T WORK !!!!!!!
I trust him on this issue that McCain/Clinton
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aquarius dawning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
44. he was for the gas tax holiday before he was against it you see.
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Bensthename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
45. Lets attack Obama for experience on this issue ?? This OP is a joke.
Yup, he found out this will not work first hand.. And now that he expresses his knowledge he is criticized? What ever.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #45
59. funny though
Edited on Sun May-04-08 09:45 AM by bigtree
The tax holidays and the funding sources he voted for in Illinois are different from the ones proposed by Sen. Clinton.

I think he's just reluctant to impose the windfall profits taxes on the oil industry that Clinton would employ to fund her proposal. That's too timid for me.
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #59
103. The windfall profits tax is a separate issue all by itself.
It's tied to the price of oil, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Richard Bruce Cheney and a host of other criminals and their activities.

Tying it to a tax holiday ignores the plight of this country caused by the criminals currently running the show.
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KSinTX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
46. Judging from your avatar, you might understand this point
"Don't try to confuse the issue with half truths and gorilla dust."
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
50. kick
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #50
61. He was a young State Senator
and then he grew up, became a U.S. Senator, and realized how stupid an idea it was.

Obama Voted For A Gas Tax Holiday Which Required That Gas Retailers Had To Indicate That Retailers Post On The Pump That "The Price On This Pump Should Reflect The Elimination Of The Tax," Which Obama Specifically Called Attention To In The Press. Obama voted in favor of amending the Use Tax Act, the Service Use Tax Act, the Service Occupation Tax Act, and the Retailers' Occupation Tax Act. The bill provided that beginning October 1, 2000, the tax imposed by the Acts on the sale of motor fuel and gasohol shall be reduced to 1.25% from the rate of 6.25%. The bill provided for the reversion of the rate to 6.25% if a certain tax revenue growth is not attained. Within 14 days after the effective date of this amendatory Act of the 91st General Assembly, each retailer of motor fuel and gasohol shall cause the following notice to be posted in a prominently visible place on each retail dispensing device that is used to dispense motor fuel or gasohol in the State of Illinois: ‘As of July 1, 2000, the State of Illinois has eliminated the State's share of sales tax on motor fuel and gasohol through December 31, 2000. The price on this pump should reflect the elimination of the tax.' The notice shall be printed in bold print on a sign that is no smaller than 4 inches by 8 inches. The sign shall be clearly visible to customers. Any retailer who fails to post or maintain a required sign through December 31, 2000 is guilty of a petty offense for which the fine shall be $500 per day per each retail premises where a violation occurs. Chicago Defender reported, "Obama (D-13th) said the bill gives customers needed temporary relief from high gas prices. ‘Gas retailers must post on each pump a statement that indicates that the state tax has been suspended and that this temporary elimination of the tax should be reflected in the price per gallon of gas,' said Obama." (91st GA, SB 1310, 3/8/00, 3R P; 50-0-6 (BO: Y); PA 91-0872, 6/29/00; Chicago Defender, 7/1/2000)

Obama Voted Against Permanently Eliminating Illinois' Gas Tax, Saying That The Temporary Elimination Of The Tax Had "Not Been Passed Onto The Consumer." In 2000, Obama voted against a bill to make permanent the elimination of the State's portion of the tax on motor fuel and gasohol (now, the tax reverts to 6.25% on January 1, 2001). Obama said on the floor that there was an organization called "the Illinois Tax Accountability Project, that is in the process of trying to track the gap between wholesale prices and prices at the pump during the period since we took this – we removed this tax, and what they have found so far –and the study is not yet complete, but apparently it appears that any decline in prices at the pump have been perfectly matched by declines at the wholesale level...That would indicate, at least at this point, that the elimination of the tax has not been passed on to the consumer." (91st GA, SB 1867, 11/15/00, 3R P; 46-12-0; Session Sine Die, 1/9/01)

Ø 2001: The Hill Noted Illinois' Experiment With Gas Tax Repeal Had Failed In Article About Calls For Gas Tax Cut. "Even though Dick Morris overlooks the fact that a bipartisan Senate voted against cutting the federal gas tax three times in 2000 ("Gas tax is the real tax cut issue," May 23), here are 10 good reasons why cutting the gas tax remains a bad idea this year: 1. The federal gas tax, unchanged since 1993, has nothing to do with the increase in gasoline prices in 2001; 2. The federal government cannot guarantee that gas prices would drop at the pump with a tax suspension. Temporary state gasoline sales tax repeals in Illinois and Indiana last summer offered little relief for motorists. The average price of gasoline in both states continued to increase during the period the tax cuts were in place - about 20 cents per gallon; 3. If the savings were passed on to motorists, what happens when the suspension is lifted? Americans would experience, in one day, the largest spike in the price of gasoline - 18.4 cents per gallon - in U.S. history. Think of the outrage that would cause; 4. Suspending the federal gas tax places billions of dollars in future funding for state highway and mass transit programs at risk. Uncertainty about the federal government's financial commitment will disrupt state programs, jeopardizing several hundred thousand American jobs." (The Hill, 5/30/010)

more


Repeating the same mistake over and over is a Bush/Republican concept.

Why is Hillary supporting something that she once opposed when there is evidence that it doesn't work?

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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #61
67. why don't you mention that obama LIES about hill's plan?
she pays for the tax holiday by taxing the windfall profits of big oil.

i assume that under other circumstances you would agree with taxing those windfall profits.

but i could be wrong of course -- perhaps you think leaving oil companies to continue to benefit from the stress on the american people is a good idea.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #67
75. So she's taking money out of the budget for infrastructure and replacing it down at some point by
taxing oil companies profits?

That's idiotic!

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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #75
84. so you are against windfall taxes on big oil?
she proposes paying for the tax break by using the tried and true paygo system.

you don't give a tax break unless you can pay for it.

she follows the current dem philosophy -- and pays for her tax break.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #84
104. No, I against stupid ideas.
Is it possible to tax the oil companies without giving them an opportunity to stiff consumers under the guise of phony tax relief?



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DAGDA56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #67
77. In short...She has already proposed using a windfall profits tax...
...to support alternative fuel studies...a tax W would never sign into law. Her proposal is dependant on drafting the bill, getting the votes together, having the vote, getting it passed (assuming it sails through committee) and getting all this done by June 21. 2008...the start of summer and six weeks away. Impossible? Yes. Pandering? Also yes.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #77
86. lol -- it is tried and true paygo tactics -- and paygo
is generally what dems support at this time.

pandering is voting three times for a gas tax break with out a paygo and after noticing it didn't work.


typical obama fantasizing.
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book_worm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
72. So? and now he says he was wrong and it is wrong
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
76. And then he figured out it doesn't work!
Obama does have more experience than Hillary!
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
80. And Hillary voted for a war that has killed over a million innocent people
Did anyone die from the IL gas tax holiday?
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
81. He just explained. Yes he was for it - tried it - didn't work He's
smart enough to change. not like AssHat in iraq
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
82. And Obama has also said he learned from that experience.
The gas tax holiday didn't work back then and he doesn't believe it would be any different now. What a shocker. A person who learns from a mistake and doesn't repeat it.
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mapatriot Donating Member (166 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
83. Different time.....
different issues. Illinois wasn't saddled under an historic deficit, wasn't having to fund a war, wasn't dealing with an already enacted and highly irresponsible income tax cut. This is a grossly uninformed attack against Obama.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
88. kick
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
90. his pandering was wrong then,
Now he has it right
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gbrenna Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
93. Obama addressed this with Russert
He voted for the gas tax relief bill...but it did not work. Oil companies raised their prices and kept the money which is why he is against this idea. This is why I am voting for Obama, he will not be 'a panderer in chief'.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #93
96. And he doesn't repeat mistakes n/t
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zabet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #96
99. ...
'I can no longer condemn Rev. Wright, than I can Black America."

Now..its 'I denounce Rev. Wright' I don't know him and he doesn't really know me.

Which is right and how is that not a mistake in judgement on his part?
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #99
109. Wow. Sporadic, haphazard thinking skills are a dangerous thing
If I have to explain it to you, you're a lost cause.
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gbrenna Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #96
112. Obama learns from mistakes
This one of the things I really like about Sen. Obama; he admits mistakes and learns from them-very refreshing for a politician.
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mikekohr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
98. Pander Bears, McCain/Clinton Willing To Repeat Mistake for Sake Of Votes
This repeal DID NOT WORK in Illinois. It was a boondoggle for the oil companies and did not help Illinois motorists and helped increase our state debt.

President Bush has been unwilling to admit failure or to accept responsibility for his mistakes. McCain/Clinton are both showing that they are willing, on this issue, to take a play out of the Bush playbook.

It's time for a change in Washington. Senator Obama is willing to learn from his mistakes and is not locked into rigid ideology or prone to craven political pandering for the sake of personal expediency. Honesty, integrity, and pragmatism will be welcome changes when Senator Obama wins the White House in November

mike kohr
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
100. i can`t resist..........intelligent people learn not to repeat their mistakes
Edited on Sun May-04-08 11:27 AM by madrchsod
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populistdriven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
101. you need to learn from your mistake in supporting hillary
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Blarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
105. He called it a mistake on MTP...
and said he learned from that mistake.
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Thickasabrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
108. Hillary knows it won't work but wants to do it anyway. Definition of Insanity nt
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
111. Obama learned from his experience ..right there in Illinois, too..
What's freakshow hilary learned? That pandering doesn't work? Nah, she'll learn that in the next life.
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npincus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
117. which is WHY he knows it doesn't work.
He said so himself yesterday on MTP. A politician who actually LEARNS from his mistakes, rather than repeat them, a la Hillary "Obliterate Iran" Clinton!

:rofl:
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
118. Obama admitted it was a mistake on MTP.
Imagine. A candidate who can admit a mistake and LEARN FROM IT.

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lolamio Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
122. Yeah. And he learned from his "experience" that it doesn't work. Imagine that. n/t
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #122
127. No, he just had an inferior plan
It bothers him more that Clinton came up with a better one.
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mikekohr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-06-08 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #127
130. Her Plan Is A Sham and A Flim Flam
Edited on Tue May-06-08 07:18 AM by mikekohr
Senator Clinton claims she will pay for the loss of revenue produced by this screw-ball proposal by taxing the "windfall profits," of the oil companies. Problem is she has already spent that "windfall tax" revenue on other proposals in her economic plan. In other words she is spending more of our children's and grand children's money.

That's not change, that's the status quo. That's Credit Card Republicanism. That's what has produced the staggering national debt that we will be passing onto our children. Incidentally, 78% of that debt has been produced by the last three Republican presidents, Reagan/Bush/Bush, let's not add a Democrat to that fiscal hall of shame.

70% of Americans view this McCain/Clinton proposal as a canard, a political pander designed to hand out candy to the voters just before the election. There is not a SINGLE economist that says this is a good idea, because it is a bad idea, a bad idea that has been disproved by practical experience.


mike kohr
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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 09:51 AM
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123. I posted this several times and it dropped like a rock!
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 06:36 PM
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126. Yikes, he's all over the place
Just choosing the opposite stand on issues from Clinton isn't exactly a good qualification for POTUS.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
128. I must have worked pretty good the first two times
or maybe Obama is just a slow learner - or maybe it was just a vote for political expediency.

You know - "phony" and a "gimmick."

Yes, Barack Obama knows all about "phony."
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 06:41 PM
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129. Yep, and it cost IL and IN plenty - so he KNOWS it doesn't work
consumers were supposed to save 5c per gallon but the oil companies clawed back 60% of that, raising prices by 3c per gallon. IL lost $142 million while neighboring Indiana, which tried the same thing, lost $42 million.

What do you prefer - a candidate that learns from experience, or one that tells you what you ant to hear even though he KNOWS it won't save consumers real money and will hurt the treasury?
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