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It's good slick politics to harp on the gas tax holiday, but Clinton has the best overall plan

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:02 PM
Original message
It's good slick politics to harp on the gas tax holiday, but Clinton has the best overall plan
That's why Obama has been so aggressive in his criticism. It's smart to distract from her overall plan, which is a reflection of her promise to fight for the things she's promising.

It's not surprising that the entire argument against her plan is based on the assumption that oil companies can't be brought to accountability and that Congress won't act to our benefit in confronting them.


The 'economists' argument is that the oil companies would just keep the money and that a windfall profits tax would discourage the companies from investing in exploration. I say that's just giving in to the oil companies. It's as if we have to accept the argument that, despite record profits for years now, there wouldn't be enough money for these companies to invest in ways to reduce the prices, like building refineries. But that's just a cop-out.

The refinery argument is just a scam to get Congress to take down the requirements for safe, clean refineries which don't threaten citizens where they're built. The supply argument is transparently corrupt, but it serves the environmentalists who want higher gas prices because they think it keeps demand low and encourages conservation. That may be so, but we're conserving now just to keep the shirts on our backs.

The 'economists' arguments don't pass the smell test. WHEN will we begin to hold the oil companies accountable for their deficiencies they claim are driving prices up to criminal levels? If they're not investing these record profits in the things thy say are holding prices up, they should be denied our tax dollars that are supposed to go to those things like exploration and production support.

There is a curious timidity in moving toward ANY option which addresses these record profits. Where is Obama's plan to address the price-gouging? Where is his plan to CONFRONT these thieves who are robbing us blind at the pump? Is it really surprising that there is so much resistance to a plan which threatens to impose taxes on their windfall profits?


Here are the economists cited in the WaPo: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/01/politics/washingtonpost/main4061094.shtml



Harvard professor N. Gregory Mankiw, who has written a best-selling textbook on economics, said what he teaches is different from what Clinton and McCain are saying about gas taxes. "What you learn in Economics 101 is that if producers can't produce much more, when you cut the tax on that good the tax is kept . . . by the suppliers and is not passed on to consumers," he said.


Leonard Burman, director of the Tax Policy Center of the Urban Institute and the Brookings Institution, said the laws of the market argue against a tax suspension. "Every summer, the refiners are running full out. If the price fell, people would want to drive more and there would be shortages," he said. "It's a basic economic principle that if the supply is fixed, the price is going to be determined by demand."

Joining in the criticism was House Majority Leader Steny H. Hoyer (D-Md.), who said that the Democratic leadership of Congress has no intention of pursuing the summer tax suspension that Clinton touted. The move "would not be positive," he said. "The oil companies would just raise their prices."

Clinton stresses that she, unlike McCain, would push for a windfall-profits tax on oil companies to offset any benefit to them and replace the revenue loss to the highway trust fund. Burman called this "utterly incoherent," saying that a windfall-profits tax would over the long term only exacerbate the supply problems caused by lifting the gas tax, because it would discourage the exploration for and development of new sources of petroleum. "So a policy intended to lower prices, but which won't do that, will be offset with a policy that's likely to raise prices over the long term," he said.

Environmentalists noted that suspending the gas tax also would undermine efforts to curb global warming because it would increase the use of gasoline, a fossil fuel that contributes to climate change. It would also reduce incentives for buying fuel-efficient vehicles and developing alternative fuels. Relying on a windfall-profits tax to replenish the highway fund would leave less to invest in renewable energy, which is what Clinton had previously said a windfall tax would go toward.




here's Clinton's plan:


Take Immediate Action to Crack Down on Speculation and Market Manipulation in Oil and Gasoline Markets – Oil and gasoline markets contain loopholes for traders, and the markets are inadequately policed by regulators under current law. As a result, there is considerable concern that current market prices reflect the influence of speculators and other forces beyond supply and demand. In early April, an Exxon Mobil executive testified under oath before a House committee that the price of oil should be $50 to $55 per barrel based on supply and demand fundamentals. Marathon Oil's CEO stated last October that: "$100 oil isn't justified by the physical demand in the market…it has to be speculation on the futures market that is fueling this." Hillary would take action to reduce the influence of speculators, crack down on market manipulation in oil markets, and outlaw price gouging by:

* Closing the Enron Loophole – Hillary supports closing the "Enron loophole," which exempts electronic trading of energy commodities by large traders from U.S. government regulation. The loophole has helped lead to the dramatic growth of trading on unregulated electronic energy exchanges, and has made the U.S. energy markets vulnerable to price manipulation and excessive speculation. Even Alan Greenspan has cited "investors and speculators who took on larger net long positions in crude oil futures" as one cause of oil prices. In June 2006, the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations issued: "The Role of Market Speculation in Rising Oil and Gas Prices: A Need to Put the Cop Back on the Beat." This report analyzed the degree to which financial speculation in energy markets had contributed to the dramatic increase in energy prices in recent years. The report concluded that "speculation has contributed to rising U.S. energy prices," and endorsed the estimate of various analysts that the influx of speculative investments into crude oil futures accounted for approximately $20 of the then-prevailing crude oil price of approximately $70 per barrel.

* Protect the consumer market from price gouging for petroleum products – Hillary will make it unlawful for any supplier – wholesaler or retailer – to sell crude oil or gasoline at an unconscionably excessive price. Price gougers would face new fines and criminal penalties of up to $1 million and five years in prison and civil penalties could be assessed from $500,000 up to $5 million. Today, there are no federal laws prohibiting price gouging in the oil and gas industry, leaving some states to prohibit these actions. In 2006, the Federal Trade Commission conducted a study of post-Katrina gas price, and while it did not find widespread gouging, it did find 15 examples of pricing at the refining, wholesale, or retail level that fit a definition of price gouging under legislation that Senator Clinton has backed and is proposing to enact now.

* Call on the Federal Trade Commission to Take Action Against Market Manipulation in Wholesale Oil Prices – The energy bill passed last year included new provisions to provide greater transparency and prevent manipulation in wholesale oil markets, and to empower the Federal Trade Commission to investigate and pursue violations. Unfortunately, the Bush Administration has chosen not to use this new authority. To ensure that oil companies and traders are not ripping off consumers, Hillary is calling on the FTC to begin investigations using these new powers. In addition, Hillary is calling on the FTC to propose regulations under the new law within 60 days to prevent market manipulation in oil markets. Recent cases show that market manipulation is a concern in oil markets. In 2007, Marathon Oil paid a $1 million fine to the Commodities Futures Trading Commission to settle charges that a subsidiary had tried to manipulate crude oil prices in 2003. Action by the FTC to investigate the current oil market and to develop and enforce new prohibitions on market manipulation would help to minimize foul play in oil and gasoline markets.

Take more aggressive action to pressure OPEC to increase production – OPEC recently reiterated that it will not even consider increasing crude output until September 2008, even though limited supplies are contributing to record oil prices. Hillary believes we should be taking more aggressive action to address OPEC's control over global production levels and hold OPEC accountable for its decisions. President Bush's efforts to pressure OPEC over the past seven years have been inconsistent and unsuccessful. Hillary supports sending a strong signal to OPEC that the era of complacency has ended. Hillary will:

* Use the WTO to Challenge OPEC's Production Quotas – With nine of the thirteen OPEC member countries also being members of the WTO, Hillary believes we should use the tools available at the WTO to address OPEC's refusal to increase production. WTO rules currently prohibit member countries from imposing export quotas. Yet OPEC member countries are actively and explicitly banding together to restrict oil production and affect global prices. Hillary is calling on the President to engage in immediate negotiations with OPEC members and, if no progress is made, file a formal complaint against OPEC countries at the WTO. Filing a complaint at the WTO will send a clear signal to OPEC countries that the U.S. is committed to an open, transparent global oil market. Such a step will give OPEC members an incentive to increase production as well.

* Allow OPEC Production Decisions to Be Challenged Under U.S. Anti-Trust Law – Currently, OPEC countries cannot be challenged under U.S. anti-trust laws, even when they are engaged in coordinated, commercial activity to control the global oil market. Hillary supports amending the Foreign Sovereignty Immunities Act so that the Justice Department can bring suits against OPEC countries in U.S. courts for price fixing. Changing the rules would help hold OPEC countries accountable for their decisions.

Close the oil and gas loopholes and use those resources to provide direct assistance to working families facing skyrocketing energy bills on top of record gas prices. Hillary believes that in addition to imposing a windfall profits tax on large oil companies, Congress should move immediately to end the approximately $7.5 billion per in tax giveaways and subsidies that we continue to provide to oil and gas companies, despite their record profits. These subsidies are in part a result of the 2005 Energy Bill she voted against. She would use those resources this year to provide assistance to lower-income families who are not only being hit at the gas pump, but with skyrocketing energy and food bills as well. This winter, a record number of families were forced to seek assistance through the Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program (LIHEAP) to heat their homes. This included 61,000 Oregon families. Hillary was the only candidate to call for providing emergency energy assistance to these and other struggling families as part of the economic stimulus package. Now, as many states' moratoriums on utility cutoffs expire this spring, millions of families could face the prospect of having their energy shut-off and having to go without electricity, hot water or the ability to keep their homes cool this summer. Hillary will use a portion of the proceeds from closing the oil and gas loopholes to ensure that these hardworking families, who are already struggling to pay for gas at the pump, do not face the extra hardship of having their energy cut off. She will use the remainder of the proceeds to provide immediate aid to lower-income families that are facing high food prices as a result of the record price of oil.

Stop filling the Strategic Petroleum Reserve (SPR) and release oil from it when that becomes necessary – Hillary is calling on President Bush stop taking oil off the market and putting it into the Strategic Petroleum Reserve (SPR). The SPR is now 97 percent full, which analysts believe is more than adequate. Continuing to fill it at these high prices exacerbates high oil prices and costs taxpayers money. Hillary also believes that the SPR should be more actively managed to enable releases from the SPR to counter market spikes and reduce volatility.

Proposals to Reduce our Dependence on Foreign Oil Over the Long-Term

The plans to address rising gas prices in the short term build on Hillary's bold, long-term, comprehensive plan to reduce our dependence on foreign oil and move America towards energy independence. (www.hillaryclinton.com/poweringamericasfuture.pdf). Key elements of that plan include:

* Raising fuel efficiency standards (CAFE) to 55 miles per gallon by 2030;
* A $150 billion investment in researching, developing, and deploying renewable and alternative energy;
* Cutting our foreign oil imports by two-thirds by 2030;
* Providing $1.5 billion per year for public transit, an additional $1 billion for intercity rail, and additional funds for congestion reduction, better traffic management and telecommuting;
* Providing tax credits and research and development funding for plug-in-hybrid vehicles, which can get up to 100 mpg; and
* Conserving fuel in the federal fleet. Hillary will call on all federal government agencies to suspend non-essential travel and other activities that use gasoline or diesel fuel, and encourage employees to carpool, telecommute, and use public transportation to reduce fuel use. And she will direct federal employees to reduce maximum speeds to conserve fuel, with exceptions for law enforcement and other emergency services. Under Hillary's plan, the agencies will to report to the White House once a month on their energy use and the impact of conservation efforts.

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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. Could you make your post a little longer? I need more reading
material for the bathroom.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. They take notes from the leader
Drone on and on and so it makes you look like you have substance instead of saying the same thing in fewer words.
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Saturday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Do you have any response to those words? No, I didn't think so. nt
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
27. How about it's a load of horseshit to even think it'll get out of committee...
complete bullshit.

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. what a crock
cheap politics
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Saturday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Typical BO supporter response.
Divert attention from the subject by dissing the OP. Childish.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. my ignore list works pretty well
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. I'll miss your
Picture shows...however I'll see you after the GE...your too much lol

Bye
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
26. Guess you find yourself in there most of the time with
remarks like this, I can only guess you are full of it and need to be in the bathroom most of the time... Bigtree posts both Clinton and Obama threads, all of them positive and referenced whether you like it or not...

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Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
6. How many times are you going to post the same thing?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5808851&mesg_id=5808851


All you did was extend out your argument, and you never came back to defend your other thread.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. is that the best you can do?
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
8. Of course it is part of a broader Clinton plan
But Team Obama calls "phony" and "calculated" - more assaults on Clinton's character.

The Obamas typically swoon and convulse.
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DAGDA56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
9. So you trust the oil companies to "do the right thing"?
If not, what sort of leverage would the Clinton plan use against the companies to make them comply. Would any such legislation be ready by summer? If so, would it be safe from Presidential Veto? These questions sort of pop up for me, even before I managed to wade through your entire post and links. If the answer to them is "no" then why is this not pandering on Senator Clinton's part. Voters in Indiana and North Carolina may not have time or desire to read all you have written...but they do have questions.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. why bother to ask if you haven't read what I bothered to post?
just make something up
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
13. The best over-all plan ??
One of the major reasons our economy is in the ditch is because of the Iraq War and the high cost of gasoline and all the billions we had to borrow to pay for it. Who voted for that mess??
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. that old chestnut?
I've never bought into the attempt to excuse Bush from his responsibility in committing forces to Iraq.

Your candidate agreed to give Bush almost every dime of that money. THAT was the real authorization to war and occupation, the money. You can pretend it was a piece of paper, but we all know it's the money these senators and congresspersons give and gave to Bush which allowed the invasion to continue into an occupation.

I remember when his friend Kerry wanted to end the occupation immediately, Obama said no. He said we should be fighting 'terrorists' and giving the Iraqi government space to succeed with the sacrifices of our U.S. soldiers. That was in 2006. He's an early surge supporter.

Save the piffle for the unlearned.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #19
35. Once they are committed...
It is politically and physically difficult to remove the funds. Add that to the litany.
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DMorgan Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
15. The Clinton plan expects George W Bush to approve her plan..........not a snowball's
chance in Hades, that that is going to happen before Memorial Day, or before Hades freezes over, for that matter.

In conclusion, to all those verbose and totally politically irrelevant paragraphs someone copied and pasted here.......it's a cheap political trick to get votes on Tuesday.

Nothing more, nothing less.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
16. So now economists are "economists"
I'm really shocked that you lot can't see how she's morphing into a Republican before your eyes. Disgust for "intellectuals" and "elite opinion" is a Dubya-Move, and you know it.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. just saying it doesn't make it so.
Do you really believe the same smear couldn't be executed against Obama? Enough with the cheap political tactic of labeling everything you disagree with as republican or a lie. It's transparent and dishonest.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. The only cheap political tactic going on right now is Hillary's shameless pandering.
Which, by the way, she backed up with a "with us or against us" threat. I think I've heard that somewhere before... :shrug:

I don't label everything I disagree with as "Republican." I only label stuff that is "Republican" with the label of "Republican."

Sorry, bigtree. If the shoe fits.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. All of that is just political rhetoric. I suppose you think it makes for a good rebuttal
. . . to an economic proposal. It just sounds like contrived silliness to me.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Thing is...
... you're one of the smartest posters on DU. And I sense in you a little bit of sting watching Hillary run to the right in an effort to get the nomination.

I love Hillary the Wonk, and there's nobody that can speak on policy better than she does. Nobody. I wish she'd get back to it, because when she did that, I think it was working for her. But Hillary the Panderer is just godawful, and it's because of things like that that make me think she'd be an awful leader.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. I see her sticking to this part of her proposal out of principle . . . and I agree with her stand
I don't believe the excuses about refineries, demand, or supply shortages as the reason prices are so high. Last year it was supposed to be the unrest that Bush has generated with his militarism that was said to be driving speculation and increasing the price of oil. I think it's just thievery.

I see the political attacks by the Obama camp and his supporters on this plan as a surrender to the politics from the White House (Bush complaining about refineries last week) and an surrender to the oil companies who threaten to stick it to us any way they can.

Bush wants us to focus on the refineries to get Congress to ease regulations on the siting and safety measures. The oil companies want to argue that we're the problem and that we need to pay, above and beyond the toll at the pump, for production and supply remedies that they should have been providing for with their record profits. Exxon had a record increase of 17% last year of almost $11 million in profits.

I think the measure may well fall short in support from the White House, economists, or the oil companies, but, it represents an effort to find immediate relief at the pump.

Now, both candidates have proposed measures that they must realize have almost no chance of surviving Bush or Congress, but that hasn't stopped Sen. Obama from proposing remedies which he intends to be enacted before the end of Bush's term, including foreign policy initiatives which have more import than her modest proposal to reduce the cost of gas. But, he makes those proposals in the expectation that he is advancing the debate and, hopefully encouraging action from those who hold the strings of power in Congress and the WH.

She should stand firm on her proposal to provide immediate relief at the pump. If someone has another plan to provide immediate relief they should propose it. That will advance the debate to the point where I believe it make sense. We can't wait for the effects of peak oil, or for conservation to temper demand enough to have the effect on the prices which are crippling motorists right now. She's put her proposal on the table, and the challenge, as I see it, is to either meet it or propose a way to make hers better. Just surrendering on the issue of immediate relief at the pump because Congress, the WH, and the oil companies won't play ball is no excuse at all not to propose and demand what we need.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
17. The rest of her plan is okay, and Obama also wants to address the deeper issues
What I think many people object to is her cheapening of the issue with a stunt that she knows will never go anywhere. And then trying to make democrats in Congress look like the bad guys if they don't fall into line with her while she pretends to be some populist outsider.

It's deceptive and it's the kind of trick that turns people off to politics. What happens to the gullible voters who vote for her thinking she is actually going to do somethiung immediate that she is not going to do?

Also, if she were president and were calling her own party out on such a stunt basis, how much success do you think she'll have actually getting anything passed?



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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. do you see ANYTHING of any importance passing right now?
that's no excuse for doing nothing
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. No....Congress should have acted several years ago
I think one of the little publicized issues in all of this is the one about the deregulation of the speculative markets that have allowed prices to become so volatile and subject to legal profiteering.

Personally, I think Congress should have gotten a lot more proactive a lot sooner to put controls on prices. Also, obviously, we should also be a lot further along in the use of fuel efficiency and alternative energy...After all it was a big issue in the 70's, so it's not like we got into this mess overnight.

But since that hasn't happened, I think a stunt like a temporary gas tax holiday that is NOT going to happen either is misleading to voters. And, as I said, it will add to the cynicism of the population when they see a politician saying "Vote for me" on an idea she knows is already not going to happen.

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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
18. sorry but like the constitutional ammendment to allow Guam to vote in the presidential election
this is just pandering.

She is not promoting her plan she is promoting a quick hit on a stupid idea - unless she can show how supply and demand is also going to be waived - the prices will be the same and the oil speculators will get higher profits.

On the up side she has to talk about something and she has stopped her personal attacks on Obama

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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
22. The short version with comments.
* Closing the Enron Loophole

What regulations would be put in place?

* Protect the consumer market from price gouging for petroleum products

What is an "unconscionably excessive price"?

* Call on the Federal Trade Commission to Take Action Against Market Manipulation in Wholesale Oil Prices

Been there; done that. Remember the price controls in the '70s. Want to go back to filling your car with the even numbered license plate on the even numbered days, and then still waiting in gas lines?

* Use the WTO to Challenge OPEC's Production Quotas

Actually, OPEC probably doesn't need production quotas, since Saudi Arabia is the only member with additional production capacity. The rest are at current production. There is no incentive to invest more in production capacity, since the oil appreciates more in value sitting in the ground than you could make by investing the profits from producing it.

* Allow OPEC Production Decisions to Be Challenged Under U.S. Anti-Trust Law

Can't piss off the Saudis. And like being sued in the US will bother them?

* Stop filling the Strategic Petroleum Reserve (SPR) and release oil from it when that becomes necessary

Good idea to stop. But what percent of the world daily consumption of 85 million barrels go int the SPR? And you can't release it, since you need it to be full when you "obliterate" Iran.

* Raising fuel efficiency standards (CAFE) to 55 miles per gallon by 2030;

By what magic? Vacuous goal and not a plan.

* A $150 billion investment in researching, developing, and deploying renewable and alternative energy;

Probably a good idea.

* Cutting our foreign oil imports by two-thirds by 2030;

By what magic? Vacuous goal and not a plan.

* Providing $1.5 billion per year for public transit, an additional $1 billion for intercity rail, and additional funds for congestion reduction, better traffic management and telecommuting;

Tiny drop in the bucket. Most intercity rail should not exist outside of a few corridors, e.g. Boston-Washington, Raleigh-Atlanta, San Diego-San Francisco, etc. Take $50 billion out of the above item and spend it on commuter rail to have any real effect.

* Providing tax credits and research and development funding for plug-in-hybrid vehicles, which can get up to 100 mpg; and

I think Toyota and Honda can fund this themselves.

* Conserving fuel in the federal fleet.

What fraction does the DoD use? Start there.



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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
25. Summary: sure it is pandering bullshit on the face of it
and at complete odds with a program that wants to cut imported oil and increase conservation efforts, but some of the unimplementable wish list long term fluff around the pandering sounds good.

Hmmm... no thanks, I want more from our candidate.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. it's a small part of a responsible plan which intends to confront the industry
. . . and force accountability.

Attaching the 'pander' line to whatever you disagree with is, itself, a cheap political tactic. You should know that EVERYTHING in a presidential campaign is pandering.

BTW, where's Obama's plan to confront the industry?
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. No it is pandering bullshit at odds with such a plan.
You admit that by calling it 'slick politics'. 'fess up, you are smarter than this.
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
30. Kick
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
32. So what if every expert on this thinks it's nothing but pandering bullshit...
Edited on Sun May-04-08 03:09 PM by zulchzulu
...she is sure appealing to the low information voter...the dumbass, the flunkie, the college dropout... yeah, they like the plan... because they are dumb as a bag of dogshit.

She should also promise a chicken in every pot while she's at it...from the bed of a fucking gas-guzzling red truck she borrowed from Repig Fred Thompson.

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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
34. Here's his plan He beat Hillary to the punch. He denounce McCain's plan and offered his before
Clinton piggy backed on McCain's plan.

By the way, the plan you posted isn't about a gas tax holiday or how Hillary would propose to pay for it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080425/ts_alt_afp/usvotedemocratsenergy_080425211322

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Enact a Windfall Profits Tax on Oil Companies to Pay for Temporarily Suspending the Gas Tax –
Hillary will impose a windfall profits tax on oil companies and use the money to temporarily suspend the 18.4 cent per gallon federal gas tax and the 24.4 cent per gallon diesel tax during the upcoming peak summer driving months. Hillary will ensure that this relief is passed along to consumers by charging the Federal Trade Commission with conducting aggressive oversight. Unlike Senator McCain's plan, Hillary's plan will be fully paid for by taking away oil company profits through a windfall profits tax. This will ensure that the Highway Trust Fund is not affected at all by the gas tax suspension, and can continue to support critical repairs and maintenance for our infrastructure and highways.

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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Do you really believe Bush would sign a tax increase on Big Oil??
Won't happen.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. We demand things Bush won't agree to all of the time.
That's our responsibility if we believe we're right.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. What are the details? Obama mentions how much. And did so before Hill did. Wheres her numbers?
I mean if it's well thought out and such.

Does she think the bush FTC will actually enforce it this summer?

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ericgtr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
41. Question: How long until she is able to get the oil companies to pay for it?
The answer is not soon and not easily if ever, this "holiday" is at the expense of jobs and maintenance both needed to keep the economy afloat. Meanwhile there will be nothing preventing the oil companies from hiking their prices if they just feel like it. This is a terrible plan and one most Democrats oppose.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. you could make that argument about any move you make on the industry
pretty soon you're just standing still out of fear of their reaction.

Who knows what they'd do in the face of demands for accountability? Do you believe their hands are clean?

We do need immediate relief at the pump. The cost of that should be made to bear on the industry. Subsidies, loopholes, and royalties . . . there's the leverage.
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ericgtr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. I agree but what about the jobs lost in the interim?
Honestly, candidates aside I just don't see this being worth the risk just to save a few bucks.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
44. One thing she didn't do is vote for Bush's insane energy "plan"
like Obama did.

That said, based on the Clintons' record on energy while in office, let's just say I'm skeptical about her plans as well.

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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
45. And my plan is
To get my car to run on water - and get free money from ATM machines -- and win the lottery every week.

This is Hillary's dream. In a government that is controlled by corporations, it will never happen.

It's just a pipe dream to suck in the rubes.

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