"Gas holiday:" It's good because the oil companies will pay the tax, not you!

I could be wrong in how I understand it, but here's a quote from Hillary Clinton's site:

"We can choose to have you continue to pay the federal gas tax this summer or we can choose to try to make the oil companies pay it out of their record profits. http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=7467

Now what's wrong with that? I don't care if Hillary or Obama came up with this idea, but I like it. McCain's plan is to just eliminate the gas tax and not replace the money. Now, that's a bad idea because the gas tax pays for road improvements. With Hillary's plan, we continue to pay for road imporvements, but the oil campanies pay for it, not you.

thinking that George will sign a windfall profit bill? Of course he won't...so it's not "paid" for like she claims. She's lying.

He might do it because he's a greedy oil-money bastard and it's his money we're talking about, but he'd be under a lot of pressure from those running to not veto it. A lot of voters in both parties would see the bill as a tax cut, and would turn on the party that vetoed it to save oil companies money.

Whether it passes or fails, saying that Clinton is lying about what a bill does because the bill might not get passed is wrong. The tax cuts are paid for if the bill passes, so where is she lying? And you know as well as I do that Obama's only objection to the bill is that Clinton thought of it, so it would make her look better if he went along.

never sign it. It's like promising to give everyone sunshine and rainbows. Sounds pretty, but it won't happen. Especially not between now and the end of the month.

Additionally, what would stop the oil companies from just raising the price of gas to cover that cost, citing increase in consumption? Without price caps, as well as everything else, it would help nothing.

:spank:

I mean, why not just eliminate crime by passing a law requiring people to be nice to each other? The gas companies can make prices go up by just slowing down production slightly and announcing they had a technical difficulty at one of their refineries.

passing on to us what they have to pay instead of us to the Feds? Even in a delayed reaction manner.....like after the summer? And if so, what has been accomplished?

So it is not definite that the oil companies will pay the tax? And who will make the oil companies pay the tax, * or congress? It's a feel good scam.

As I recall, she "tried" to get insurance companies to participate in her health care plan in '93. And her supporters keep saying how hard she tries.

I'll admit, she does try my patience.

:shrug:

And there isn't enough support in congress to override a veto. And that's assuming the republicans don't have enough support to block passage in the first place. And it would never get signed in time for it to matter this summer, which is when Hillary wants to eliminate the tax.

I can't believe she hasn't been laughed off the face of the planet.

lol lol lol lol

Do you think that they won't get it out of the customer one way or another?

It's all a dumb gimmick.

Do you really think you are going to see the 0.18/gallon in your pocket? If not, then what the heck is the point? By that statement alone, Clinton is more or less admitting the entire thing is a shell game.

Not a chance.

even if the windfall tax made it through, the ideal use for the money would not be to cover the loss of federal highway funding from the $30 tax break to drivers, but rather to invest it into new energy sources.

The "holiday" is a short term 2% add-on to the "stimulus" <sic> money when it comes right down to it. The other is a long term reach towards a solution.

I personally prefer a cast to a band-aid for the energy problem.

oil companies will pay the tax and then raise the price of gas. So say gas was 4.18 and 18 cents was tax. Gas would drop initially by the 18 cents and then it would begin to creep up...after all, it's summer and the gas companies always know that a good time to gouge the travelling public. So the price goes up and, instead of staying home, we travel because Hillary encouraged us to, and we pay the price, 4.15 a gallon. Then Fall comes, the tax is back and the price is still up...4.33 a gallon. Tell me what part of her plan prevents that.

Less money for roads, less accountability in oil company profits and NO decline in the costs to consumers.

But of course, all this is irrelevant as everyone including Hillary knows that this will never even get introduced, let alone passed. This is why she isn't bothering to submit a bill for it.

Bottom line, this is pure and simple pandering for the sake of those in Indiana and North Carolina. It dies completely after May. The only question is whether anyone is stupid enough to vote for her due to this.

Everything said here is correct--it will be hard to get through congress and harder to get past oilman bush. The oil companies may TRY to pass on the cost, but I still say, let's do it. Shouldn't the Democrats try to do something?

It has NO chance of passing with a Repub pres. None. When we get a Dem president in, we can talk about this again.

and it's not a substitute for a sensible energy policy.

She has already proposed a windfall profit tax to pay for research and alternative fuel investment, we can't even get that passed. So now she's pretending that same tax will go to our roads and bridges. Well any thinking person knows that it'll be a miracle if either happens, let alone both.

Further, all removing the gas tax will do is give the oil companies more profit. They aren't required to lower the price of gas. Even if they do for a week or two, they can still raise the price and just say, supply and demand.

And when will she talk about the dollar and how that is as responsible for the prices as her Iran obliteration comments are.

Big fat lie.

Ready to deceive on day one.

She has already promised to allocate windfall oil profits to alt fuel research, Now she once again spends that money to offset shortfalls in gas tax revenue so we don't have any mroe collapsing bridges over the Mississippi. Goodie.

Why doesn't she just use that money to pay for everything. We're now gonna be debt free thanks to those big bad oil companies! She'll just allocate that money to cover everything from free healthcare to a manned mission to Mars. Yippee!

Or maybe, just maybe, people will pay attention to this boondoggle and tell her to stop parroting a fucking republican bad idea and be a Democrat again.

When they face an increase in taxes...they raise prices proportionally. Espicially if they are an Oligopoly like Oil is and they essentially have control of the market.

So you can raise the taxes on Big Oil...they'll raise their prices and we just did a wash.

BTW George W Bush is President and he has no accountability anymore....so raising taxes on oil companies this month...not fucking likely.

More crap from Clinton... who knows perfectly well that consumers are the only ones who will pay. We'll either pay now or pay later.

Hill, you just don't get it.

difference

other than the time and energy it will take to try and pass this BS

divert the money to cover the revenue, which it won't, that will not be collected at the pump for infrastructure repairs and upgrades instead of using it where she originally promised, which was to pay for research into alternative fuel sources.

You don't think the oil companies will take those lost profits right out of our hides again?

and it's $.18 per gallon.

Assume you drive 20 miles to work and you drive a 4x4 pickup that gets 12 miles to the gallon.

40 x 5 (days) x 13 (weeks) / 12 = 216 gallons... but what the hey, you make trips on the weekends too... 300 gallons for the summer. $300 x .18 = $54

So, if you commute more than average AND you drive a gas guzzler, you will save $54 over 3 months of driving.

That's IF the oil companies reduce the pump cost by $.18 a gallon and keep it off for the summer. Experiments have shown that they don't.

I'd much rather see a longer list of long term solutions.

Start with

a) improved mileage standards and a reduction in gas guzzling trucks and cars

b) investments in green energy solutions for transportation

c) if we have to for now, more exploration for domestic oil production


And, if YOU want to save more than $54 for this summer, inflate your tires to the proper amount and wash/wax your vehicle... if you drive a truck... find 100 pounds of unneeded weight (extra tools and junk). Reduce your speed on highways to 50 mph. That adds just 4 minutes to your 20 mile commute.

Do all that and you would like save about 15 percent on your gas.

300 x .15 = 45 gallons X $3.50/gal = $157...

Now car pool and cut out the extra trips that you don't need to make... 100 gallons saved = $350.

Over the summer, you could save $450 or $150/month. Not only that, but if EVERYONE did that, the oil companies and the OPEC countries would have to reduce their prices and gas would cost significantly less. More importantly, you can KEEP doing this and save more money for the years ahead.

Sell the gas guzzler and buy a small car or hybrid that gets 35-40 miles/gallon and then you can do the math over the lifetime of the vehicle. Old lifestyle is $21,000 over 5 years in gasoline... new lifestyle is $6,500 for the same amount of driving, both assume $3.50 gas for the next 5 years... which hasn't been the pattern. Both get you to the same places on the same days.

They collect the money, and they pay the tax.
Therefore the tax holiday will be for oil companies.

Any drop in the price of gas would be a voluntary gift from big oil.
Nobody is proposing lowering the price of gas.

Youve got to think it through. This is right up there with her plan to give every newborn a thousand bucks.

explanation of this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5812006

and roads would suffer. yup, he lied to the people on the stump!

there is is folks . obama lied once again!

the people that HilLary's plan would be paid for by the excise tax on the oil companies. --see the OP

reduction to you. That is what Obama and every economist under creation is saying. Hillary is basically asserting that she trusts the oil companies to do the right thing. Don't you think trusting the oil company to pass a break on to you is a bit of a problem?

economists. jim Lehrer invited a number of them onto his show friday night-the ones who said they backed obama but guess what. the chickens did come on the show to defend themselvees. even by remote.

Presidents have to work with congress in order to get objectives accomplished. She doesn't even have the backing of her own colleagues and she's just going to forge ahead anyway to failure.

By the way, you didn't answer my prior question but I'll move on anyway.

1> pass the excise tax first, then

2> convince me that such a tax would produce revenues better used for a $20 t0 $50 tax cut (the more wasteful your vehicle the more you save) than investments into other energy sources.

Do that and we'll talk. Until that time, the money comes from infrastructure.

Bush will sign nothing that asks the oil companies to pay more.

has given some great mathematical break downs! :toast:

Here's why I think this is shortsighted . . .

McSame/Clinton say - Let's give a tax break to Americans for the summer.
The Oil Companies (AKA George Bush) react by raising their prices.
We end up paying King George and his cronies the same amount we would have, but in the meantime the Brooklyn Bridge falls or Holland Tunnel caves in. I.E. None of it comes back to US.

I'd actually be okay with the rising cost of fuel ($3.49 here in Central NJ) IF - the cost of Big Pharm prescriptions went down. Look, I'm in a refinery state. But I just passed three major Big Pharm companies on Route 206 this morning on my way to Wegmans. I subsidize their research via taxes. So I've already paid them for the meds. In the meantime, they give the same meds to France for a song - because they stick it to us. How about we kick them out, steal the formulas, make a Government dispensary/pharmaceutical 'Company' - and just take the gas prices on the chin? That's what France does.

They take the cost of petrol on the chin but have have nice cheap out of pocket medicine prescription costs.

Maybe we don't go after 'Big Oil' until we get Obama or McKinney in office. Maybe it's time to ask Big Pharm to take one on the chin for the good of America?

the price and pass it on to you. In other words, they'll keep the amount that would normally be paid in taxes as extra profit instead of remitting the tax to pay for roads, bridges etc. The plan is silly.

in that course, it's that it doesn't matter whether you put the tax on the supplier or the consumer, both of them will be "paying" the tax at the exact same level either way. There were some pretty graphs you could draw to prove that. I probably could still work up those graphs right now if I tried.

the oil companies would just raise prices to compensate for the loss of funds to pay for the tax. But, let's face it... King George will NEVER sign a bill to hurt his main backers. And enough Senators realize that this is a pander that it won't pass by a veto-proof majority.

You really think that would happen?

Plus - how do you know the oil companies would pass on any savings to the consumer. Instead, they'd raise prices to cover their new cost.

Oil companies aren't going to be "nice guys" and eat that tax increase without passing it on to we consumers.

Rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic didn't stop it from sinking.

They'll increase the price to pass the price to the consumer.

IF Bush doesn't veto the god damned thing.

Stupid Clinton.