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Hillary is taking this to a floor vote at the convention. Disagreements?

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Carrieyazel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 01:57 PM
Original message
Hillary is taking this to a floor vote at the convention. Disagreements?
Edited on Mon May-05-08 02:29 PM by Carrieyazel
If most undecided superdelegates keep going to Obama, or even if supers put Obama over the top by early summer, she has one last shot:

A floor vote at the convention like Reagan/Ford in 1976. Reagan did it, against an incumbent from his own party. Of course, he was the insurgent, had the grass-roots fired up in '76, and Hillary doesn't fit that description. Reagan lost on the first ballot, but by a narrow margin. Any thoughts?
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olkaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. If he has it locked up, and she takes it to that point, she's nuts.
I don't think anybody but the real true-believers can go along for that ride.
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. So Teddy Kennedy
Edited on Mon May-05-08 02:08 PM by gaspee
Was nuts for taking it to the floor in '80? He had no chance in hell, if you go by straight numbers -- so it was his fault the D's (running an incumbent Pres) lost to Reagan in 1980?

Edited to add -- Kennedy should have been run out of the party if this logic applies -- Reagan wrought Bush, wrought Bush the Lessor and it's all Teddy Kennedy's fault for taking the nomination to the convention in '80.

Or does that only apply to Clinton?

Has anyone brought this hypocrisy to Kennedy? Of course not...
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Gore1FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. yes he was
that division gave us reagan.
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Justitia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
33. I LOVE Teddy, and he was wrong on that. I don't believe that's why we got Reagan, 'tho.
Lots of other factors involved, not the least being the rise of the far right - they felt like they were weak and Reagan offered a "strong daddy" persona. He also made them comfortable with their bigotry. Lots of internal and external strife. It was a nat'l thing rather than an opposition team thing.

But yes, Teddy was wrong (re: the convention). Fortunately, he is right on just about everything else.

I love ya, Ted!
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. Over by 5/20th at the latest today Obama already has 6 SDs
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olkaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. grant, how many of these are genuinely new?
I mean, not ones that were addons from Maryland and whatnot that we knew about from last week.

BTW, keep up the great work, your posts help me out a lot.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. 5 add ons (IL and MD) 1 completely new
some people were not aware of the projections from last week
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. how many sd's is hillary still ahead?
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Gore1FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-06-08 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #18
48. I think about 14-16
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
3. I remember days when the nominee was chosen AT the convention--gee, what a thought.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Crazy, Isn't It?
I don't know why we even have them anymore!

Oh yeah - tv coverage.
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olkaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Are you suggesting that it's better to decide right before the GE each time?
I mean do you honestly believe that?

Even if Hillary was way out in front, you'd still want this thing taken to the last second?
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. the answer is YES--what in the HELL is the matter with people these days--
sound byte attention spans? I have no problem letting the process play out, unlike many here.

by the way, my actual preference is for the way it is done in some other countries-six weeks, start to finish.

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satireV Donating Member (497 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. The Dem primary this time is unifying the party and getting out the people
This is great. The Dem party is energized and is building steam to beat the GOP this fall. I have never seen the Dem party so energized and unified in the 30 plus years I have been involved in politics.
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Mags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. sorry but I can't see the unity you are seeing. Explain.
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lojasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. No surprise.
Can you do math?
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Mags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. what's math got to do with unity?
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lojasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-06-08 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #16
46. So long, disruptor. EOM
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. The username of the poster of #4 may be a clue
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satireV Donating Member (497 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Please retake your remedial reading class
it's satireV not just satire....

It is not surprising that you would misread it.

Want the source?

Try looking up James Morrow nebula Award winning novella..."City of Truth"
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #25
41. If Your Post is Not Satire, then WTF?
Where is this "unity" of which you speak? The party is tearing itself apart over this.
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Mags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
39. sorry, I still don't see it. Do you think that all Hillary's supporters will
unite with BO supporters to give him a win?
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Post #4 Looks Like Satire to Me
If he meant it seriously, I am utterly baffled.
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Spirochete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. I must be dyslexic
I thought it was Veritas.
I need to have a talk with my ophthamologist...
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satireV Donating Member (497 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Absolutely!
The alternative is too frightening to live under.

And vice versa too.

Most people are all show and no go when it comes down to it.
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slick8790 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
5. Well look at your own example.
What happened to the republicans in 76? They lost.
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
6. It's "her" party and she'll cry if she wants to...
Unfortunately, we'll all be crying with her, as McCain takes office...
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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
10. She's not taking it anywhere if the SuperD's pull the plug
Which they will before the end of the month.
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newmajority Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
30. Actually, I'm hoping it's more like the end of the week.
If Hillary doesn't have any significant net gain in delegates tomorrow (and I don't see how she can)then it's time to put an end to this shit.
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
12. She will take this to the convention for a floor vote.
And like Ford in 1976, she has the establishment support behind her.
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #12
27. She has the old-party DLC neoconsters...
...in her corner. They're fringe, and they're proponents of war and sliming our
democracy with hyper-corporatism.

Like the neocons on the Republican side--game over.

The future is the Dem establishment--and that establishment is Kennedy, Kerry, McCaskille, Richardson,
Daschle, Gore, and many others--led by Obama.

Anyone who thinks that the DLC wing of the party is going to usurp the Progressive side, is living in
denial and completely out of touch.

American is done with this nonsense.
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Lucky 13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. If she takes this to the convention, prepared to watch her be utterly HUMILIATED.
Her selfishness will not be allowed to stand. And, BTW, since when is having the "establishment" behind you a good thing?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #12
31. she clearly does not have the establishment support behind her
that's evident. More of her colleagues in the Senate support him. More governors support him, and more reps support him. SDs are clearly revolted by her campaign.
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TheDoorbellRang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
34. And like Ford in 1976, we would lose
Why not go review what's happened to the political parties that have had convention battles in the past 50 years. Every single one -- in either party -- lost in the general election.

Every. Single. One.
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Justitia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #12
38. Holy crap, you are REALLY using Ford, a craven republican, as inspiration???
Nevermind that Ford was never elected to executive office,

The moron LOST to the Democrat....

Or is that what you meant by comparing Hillary to Ford?
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
15. Not from me.
Hasn't been much question in my mind that her only hope as been a SD over-turn of the pledge delegate vote since she failed to win TX/OH by numbers that would giver her a chance to catch up.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
20. Obama will have 2025 by June.
If she stays in after that, boy she'll really be up shit creek.
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Jersey Devil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
23. No. Her current "nuclear option" is a bluff
She is angling for either veep or senate majority leader. Give her either and she'll call off the hounds.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
24. she won't do it if Obama gets to 2024 in the next 6 weeks or so
she'd become a huge national joke.
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Stop Cornyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
26. Not going to happen. Obama just needs 279 more delegates. There are 318 pledged delegates who
are still up for grabs in the remaining states.

If Obama and Hillary split them, Obama will need only 120 of the 277 to win the nomination outright without even considering MI or FL, who can safely be seated without any fear that they will tip the vote against party rules.

Once Obama wins the pledged delegate majority, he will gain well in excess of the 120 super delegates he needs. This process will be completed long before the convention.
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Carrieyazel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Hillary won't let that stop her. She'll then just count pledged delegates!
And do yet ANOTHER about face and declare that superdelegates aren't official and can change their minds until the convention:

"And with pledged delegates alone, Obama does not have the 2024 needed, so I am well within my rights to take this to the floor." Hillary will say.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
29. Couldn't even if she wanted to. Not really.
She might do it as a formality, but the result is going to be settled and set in stone long before that. Obama will cross the 2024 threshold well in advance, and a large chunk of Clinton's current superD supporters will then defect to maintain party unity and make the margin unassailable by any kind of last minute maneuvering at the convention. Which will make taking it to a floor vote completely and totally pointless.
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Carrieyazel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. Excellent argument. She'll likely end up like Kennedy in '80, except much closer.
Edited on Mon May-05-08 02:54 PM by Carrieyazel
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thoughtcrime1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. That'd be the right thing to do if the Party is to have any chance in November.
Any doubt leading into the convention, will lead to certain defeat. As pointed out upthread it ALWAYS leads to defeat. If we want to McCain to win, then let's take it to the convention.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
35. superdelegates will pull the plug on the brain dead Clinton candidacy in June
They're waiting until all the states and territories have voted, so no one can say they acted before the last state got to vote.
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
43. know what happens in a floor fight? That party LOSES THE GENERAL
Ford lost after that Reagan floor fight, which cleared the way for the nomination in '80.

From a historic perspective, the only reason a candidate would invoke a floor fight at the convention is to assure the party loss in '08 and clear the way for the nomination in '12.

So, if Hillary does this, speaking as a Democratic delegate, she's dead to me.
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Iceburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
45. She'll take to the convention. Obama is in a death spiral.
He looks tired, timid and terrified.

He's lost his confidence and hence will not participate in debates or accept O'Reilly's invitation (although he has appeared on FOX 13 times!).
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-06-08 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
47. I wish this primary could go on forever - I don't get my fill of watching her...
.... spew her impotent hatred for Democrats. And then continue losing. And wondering why. And then repeating.

It's truly the gift that keeps on giving.
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