If you ask me, Florida and Michigan politicians screwed Clinton out of the nomination

Had they not violated the rules and moved their primaries up, they'd have their primaries back in February, and been very "relevant" in the Primary after all. Hillary probably would have won FL and if not won, done well enough in MI to have a significant lead in the popular vote. That may have changed the trajectory with the ensuing races, the Super Delegates, and fundraising.

So Clinton supporters, be sure to thank the Democratic politicians in both Florida and Michigan for being greedy clods. Let this be a lesson to every other Governor and state legislature about pulling this type of crap. Of course, it's entirely possible that Obama would have adapted his strategy and been able to overcome her advantages in those states, but we'll never know, will we?

Actions have consequences.

She is not being punished.

primary up & Sen.Clinton was the only candidate that did NOT remove her name from the ballot in MI

He was on the ballot.

Why does he hate the "rules?"

:cry:

But his paperwork was filed incorrectly

No Dems voted for the one in MI, to their credit, but the Democratic Governor (Granholm) signed it. So in both states you have high level Dems either allowing it to happen, or actively promoting it.

Pony Distribution Act 2008.

The Dems were really voting for the ponies!

Damn unconstitutional line-item veto!

And it was voted almost unanimously in favor by the Democrats in the FL legislature. Sorry, but they can't fault the Republicans for this fiasco. And in MI, the governor is a Democrat, so it could have easily been stopped, but they were the ones pushing for it. These are the reasons why the penalties were even harsher than the rules called out for.

OK, go ahead. A dem introduced the bill and the vote was 112-1. Explain how this was the rep's fault.

it up Super Tuesday, as was the plan.

The candidate was not being "punished" last year when the decision was made to exclude these states from the Primary. In fact, said candidate agreed with the punishments and fully signed off on it.

Its not the DNC's problem that she is losing now and desperately needs the results of two illegal votes to stay in the race.

The ONLY way Obama can win the nomination is by NOT counting all of the votes.

Even if they count the illegal elections in FL and MI Obama is still ahead in PDs and the mythical popular vote.

But you knew that didn't you?

Who did not campaign in either state.

It's really simple. You set up rules for a contest. Everybody follows the rules together. You pick a winner based on the rules.

You learned it in kindergarten. You know it.

:shrug:

neither did Senator Clinton campaign in either state.

As a matter of fact, I seem to remember some murmur about TV ads for Senator Obama being shown in FL. It was explained that that was because they were "spill over" into the market...but, why, then, did none for Senator Clinton "spill over"?

:shrug:

If Obama had campaigned, the results would likely have been different. It's neither here nor there, in any case: they were ruled out at the outset, and that's that. You learn it in kindergarten. It's called basic fairlplay. I Clintonitesd have abandoned it in favor of some weirdo will-to-power, but that's what it is.

Would you be fighting to have those votes counted if Obama had been ahead of her in the MI and FL vote?

The VOTERS are the ones being punished. And in FL particularly, an overwhelmingly Republican legislature was responsible for the change despite an attempt by dems to pull it back to the proper date.

Jeremy Ring, who ran for office on a platform of...get this...moving up the primary!

"Attempt" my ass. Read madfloridian's journals. She has done some very meticulous documentation of what went on in FL.

A dem introduced the bill, and all but one dem voted in favor.

consequences, too.

http://www.msu.edu/~jdowell/135/FaultyLogic.html

then reread your own post.

but you're blaming the wrong person. Barack Obama is not a republican legislator in Florida or Michigan. You are asking the wrong person to fix your problem.

that much is obvious.

have their votes count.


Only 2 states are getting disenfranchised.

When states tried to pull the same shit on McCauliffe back when he was Chair he told them to go pound sand and promised to do EXACTLY what Dean is doing now. They abided by him and flouted Dean. They are getting what they deserve.

tell it to the donors when they decide not to send a check to the DNC this year.

It doesn't matter if Howard Dean is "right" on this.

This is a game where the players can just pick up their ball and go home if they don't like the ump.

Great. Let's have a free-for-all where states jump over each other, with no consequences! Before you know it, the 2012 primary will be held next January!

:eyes:

who doesn't know how to debate. Or even discuss things in a civil manner.

Our entire process is obviously a gigantic clusterfuck that needs to be rethought in a big way. I have no faith that Howard Dean or the DNC will have what it takes to come up with a system that works. I imagine that 2012, unless we have an incumbent, will be a repeat of this election.

There were rules in place and Democratic politicians in MI and FL chose to ignore them. In Florida, every legislator but one voted for moving the primary up. In MI the Democrats voted against it, but the Democratic Governor chose to sign it.

disenfranchise the voters of MI and FL and there will be consequences, rules or no rules.

They don't mock FloriDAH for nothing. Did you know that the high school drop out rate here is almost 50%? How smart can Floridians be? I suppose this may be the reason some here in FL may think that Hillary won FL even though Obama didn't campaign here because he followed the DNC rules.

http://www.michigandems.com/032707prs.html

Now, I'm not well-versed in your state's politics as I'm sure you are but something happened, at a high level, to cause Gov. Granholm to sign that bill, knowing that it was in violation of DNC rules. Your state's Dem Senators, to their credit, voted against it.

Tell me, All Knowing Michigander, why did your Governor sign that bill?

You want education? Go get it. Read.

I am reading several blog rumors about her and some other pro-Clinton bigwigs wanting to help get the state in the bag for Hillary. So unless you want me to formulate my opinion on internet innuendo, I'd suggest you provide some insight. Or else, have a nice day.

Obama's ground game which has been superlative compared to hers. Had he had the opportunity to campaign in those states, who knows what the results would have been?
She was a 'known' vs. Obama; I do think that's why she prevailed in FL.

I do think she would have taken FL, since it's so favorable to her demographically, but not by as much. Michigan may have gone the way of WI, or been a close loss for Obama.

Plan and simple.

and a few Hillbots, but the rest of us know it's been over for more than a month).

Many elderly people and she had an advantage going in. I dont understand how anyone could view FL results as legit. Hillary was the odds on favorite from day one. She blew it. Gl and MI arent at fault... she is.

We can argue if voting today, not necessarily after 24/7 wright last week, a different story. Just as other states have become different stories after the primary vote. I repeat also that converting the caucuses to a popular vote, Obama would be way ahead.

Whoever gets the nod will be damaged goods after the GOP mud (also started by Hillary), and it's natural for the voters to be affected, changing their high opinion.

Kerry was not the deconstructed candidate voters were left with. We better get used to it, know it, and defend it.

and done well enough in Florida.

And you screw the candidate who wins the nomination and has to face those voters in the general election.

It isn't about your candidate or my candidate or our candidates. It's about the election process and its vital elements - chief among which is that people - citizens - individuals are supposed to have the power and not the party hacks and the various self-interested and selfish segments of society whose purposes have nothing to do with the preservation and success of our nation and its citizens.

They have been utterly clueless and incompetent, a product of industry pros thinking it would be a cakewalk. Considering this is her only example of operating in an executive position, I'd say she failed miserably.

Michigan and Florida never imagined that the contest would drag out like this. Only the Obama campaign planned for it, and they deservingly have an unsurmountable lead (and a breathtaking amount of small donations and volunteer energy).

But as I remember, in both states, it was Clinton backers who pushing for the early date. This all didn't happen by accident. It was a campaign strategy gone wrong.

In MI it's heavily rumored that Granholm and other pro-Clinton bigwigs wanted to help Hillary. They figured they'd be able to steamroll Dean and the DNC.

Long before any Democrat presidential candidate even declared.

http://thefloridamasochist.blogspot.com/2006/11/earlier-presidential-primary-date-for.html

rofl.

Thanks:) And, that means we have those power-grabbin' dinos in Michigan and Florida to thank for saving our Country. Even though, it's the Law of Unintended Consequences comin' to bite them in their collective butt.

Yes, I concur - good post catburgler:)

So she should stop fucking whining now. :grr:

because they were trying to stack the deck in her favor. Ironic isn't it. And now they have a problem, although in 2004...


"I'm going outside the primary window," told me definitively.

"If I allow you to do that, the whole system collapses," I said. "We will have chaos. I let you make your case to the DNC, and we voted unanimously and you lost."

He kept insisting that they were going to move up Michigan on their own, even though if they did that, they would lose half their delegates. By that point Carl and I were leaning toward each other over a table in the middle of the room, shouting and dropping the occasional expletive.

"You won't deny us seats at the convention," he said.

"Carl, take it to the bank," I said. "They will not get a credential. The closest they'll get to Boston will be watching it on television. I will not let you break this entire nominating process for one state. The rules are the rules. If you want to call my bluff, Carl, you go ahead and do it."

We glared at each other some more, but there was nothing much left to say. I was holding all the cards and Levin knew it.

Source: McAuliffe, Terry. What A Party!, p. 325.



You'd think they would've learned their lesson. *sigh*

But it's what happens to Hillary and Bill that is important, not the rest of us.

Everyone was told they would not count before the game started. Like overcoming a bad call in sports the champions always seem to win anyway.

And it backfired on them badly.

Voters in those states have every right to be pissed, but not at Howard Dean, and not at Barack Obama (or any of the other candidates who were still in the race at the time, but abided by the rules)

Blame the DLC state parties in Michigan and Florida. And blame Hillary for trying to manipulate the situation for her benefit.

When MI tried to pull the same crap in 2004, McAuliffe threatened to do the SAME thing Howard Dean is doing right now. They didn't test him. But since the upper echelons of Michigan Dems are DLC Clinton-ites, they decided to put Dean in a corner. Good for Dean for standing his ground.

Both states were well aware the primaries would not count. So was Clinton.

You aren't taking into account Obama's wins, his popularity, etc.

I agree that the Dem parties in both states seriously fucked up, but I don't agree that they "screwed Clinton out of the nomination."

That's not Obama's fault OR Clinton's fault.

The rules were set out before the primaries, and both states decided to move the dates of their primaries anyway.

I am LIVID at my state party and
my representatives.

NOT ONE Committe Member here in my county
wanted to break the rules, KNOWING we could
lose our delegates.

They did it anyway.

I know who to blame, and it's NOT THE DNC.

Even if the Clintons and the DLC had their hands in it, as is rumored, the decision rested in the hands of the Dem power brokers in both states. They were warned, and did it anyway.

But she would have done well here...

FL is CA on steroids for a moderate Democrat...

florida.
If I recall it was the entire state legislature that voted on when to hold the primaries as well and the republicans do control the state legislature dont they?

foolishly supported to move it but the legislature for the state which is republican controlled had to vote to pass it still I thought, in fact wasnt it part of a large number of bills involving voting?

Had they made a good faith effort to stop the primary moving up they probably wouldn't have been penalized by losing all their delegates. Read madfloridian's diaries about the whole thing.

Don't you think?

Obama may have skated more than anyone; if he'd taken third to Edwards and Clinton in this state, it could have really taken the wind out of his sails. Edwards could have also done well in Florida, too. He might be the one who was hurt the most by all this, but we'll never really know.

It certainly hurt her more than Obama, didn't it?

and didn't want them to count, voter suppression is his only advantage now

OMG.. how can you possibly be so un-informed?


Her only hope was to front load the process so her name recognition advantage would lock up the nomination before anyone compared her to the other candidates

It was that one vote, and her stubborn refusal to simply acknowledge her mistake, that drove so many primary voters to look for someone else. Also, this needs to be said: Hillary was overconfident. She underestimated the resentment out there for her IWR vote, and she underestimated Obama's abilities as a politician. By the time Hillary started campaigning at the peak of her abilities, which are damn formidable, she'd already lost the race.

Between Obama's ability to actually campaign in the two states and the couple of hundred thousand voters who stayed whom since it didn't count for anything, there's no way to predict "what if."

My estimation is that she would have won FL, though Obama would have gotten it closer due to being able to campaign there. MI would have been more a race, with Obama possibly being able to win it narrowly. Either way, they'd have gotten their delegates and Hillary might have been in a better position in the ensuing contests, and more importantly, been able to raise money. Like someone upthread said earlier, it would be a closer race than what the MSM is trying to make the current one.