Obama supporters.....serious question...

Let's say Hillary had ended up winning the nomination.

(I'm not going to ask the old tired question about whether you would vote for her or stay home or whatever.)

And let's say you really wanted to be able to vote for the Democrat in November and your objection to McCain, as I would assume most all Democrats' objection to him, is HUGE. So staying home isn't an option for you. (Ok, let's also say you live in a pinkish state and can't afford to stay home, either.)

What would you have to do to get yourself in that "space" to be able to vote for the other person? If you are a person who would not have EVER voted for her, this obviously doesn't apply to you. But if you think you maybe possibly could, what would you have to do between the nomination win and November to "get there?"

For myself, I think I'd honestly have to step away from any political conversations, both internet and real life, for a while. I'd have to be able to get away from all of it to clear my head and try to get past how I felt about the whole primary. I'd probably even have to avoid the news and news shows for a while. Then once it had been a few months and we were in the GE season, especially, I think I'd be able to be there. I wouldn't be wearing shirts, putting signs in my yard and sporting bumper stickers, I probably wouldn't donate money or volunteer, no, but I'd do what I had to do to get myself there, mentally/emotionally, by November.

What would you have to do?

I ask this because I know one woman in real life who is a Hillary supporter (co-worker)who is having a pretty hard time of it and honestly I'd have a pretty hard time, too, if Obama had lost. So I sympathize. I've had candidates lose huge in the past and it's heart-breaking. And we were talking today about what we would each need to do to deal with it and move on. She's still participating in very heated political conversations (not with me) and it just keeps making her more and more pissed off (her words).

I don't know if it's possible for people to just speak honestly in this forum and from the heart, but I am and I hope this doesn't dissolve into a hatey-thingie.

Because they are 90% the same.

But the "staying home" arguement is something the Media Made up simply because exit pollers asked the questions.

the party is in a very precarious situation

You're thinking to hard if you really believe we can afford to vote for anyone other than the Democratic nominee this fall. I don't want to sound like a party-bound robot, but it's reality. Yeah, I'd be grumpy, but I'd have a few months to cool off.


Good thing it won't happen.

to cool off.

and the path will be very clear.

www.barackobama.com

Digging too deep into Hillary's positions would uncover a bunch of stuff I don't like, which might bury or tarnish the stuff I otherwise would like. So focus on McCain - keeping the Bush tax cuts permanent (yuck), privatizing social security (yuck), laissez-faire on corporate regulation (yuck), judges who are pro-corporate, anti-civil-rights and anti-choice (yuck), expanding and perpetuating the war in Iraq (yuck), etc. If he is a typical conservative Republican it will be easy to find lots of policies that I am outraged and disgusted by and thus easy to goto the voting booth and vote against McCain.

didn't make a big deal out of it and just kept on going

everyone is different

I think I was sort of watching to see what happened. In 2004, I picked my guy really early, fell hard in love and then was totally heart-broken when he was out fairly early, so I didn't want that to happen to me again this time.

On the issues, I'm more aligned with Kucinich, but I was watching Obama and Hillary and Edwards with interest.

conservative democrat lol - It doesn't make him a presidential candidate though

in my opinion. My sister gave Edwards a large, for our family (which means small in the world of politics), contribution to him the night before he suspended his campaign. While we were heartbroken that he essentially left the race, we were open to our, at that time, "bounty of riches" in the political landscape. Through a series of most unfortunate events that left me devastated and heartbroken over a political couple's tactics, I found my way to Senator Obama's campaign, and happily voted for him on Super Tuesday.

We Democrats have gone through YEARS of heartbreaking disappointments and devastating losses. In my shortish life in politics, I've known only dark nights in politics, with the exception being the twice elected Senator Paul Wellstone, the twice elected Bill Clinton and the Democratic reclaiming of Congress in 2006. As a woman and a Democrat, I cried tears of pride when Nancy Pelosi took the gavel as the Speaker of the House. Other than those fantastic victories, we have been treated like shite and pariahs, called elitists, un American pansies, anti troop, welfare queens, latte liberals, uneducated, weak on defense, abortionists, illegal lovers, tree huggers, uneducated, feminatzis, queers, commies, oh for crying out loud, I could go on and on with the epithets that liberals have been called through out the years.

I guess, what I'm saying is that if I was a Hillary supporter and went through the same horrible dark years when we all came here for mutual support, I would feel so dark and heartbroken that my first choice, the choice that I truly believed would be what would bring us out of this mess, was not to be. But as a Democrat, I'm use to it. But for me, it's not this time. So, for her supporters, I understand the heartbreak and I hope that we can come together, try to heal the wounds that were there before this race and have come about through this race, and work to bring our party and our values to a better place and stamp out the fear and loathing that the republicans give our nation for good.

I know it will take time and everyone is raw, hurting and so accustomed to being on the losing end, but we will get through this and show who we are as Democrats. I believe the Democratic party to be: GLBT rights are Human rights, affordable health care for all people, true education and critical thinking skills for our children and professional pay for our beloved teachers, protection for our precious environment, clean air and water, repealing of horrendous global trade pacts that export our jobs and import unregulated, poisonous products to our country, reproductive rights for woman, bringing out troops home, restoring our Constitutional rights, OSHA protections, Union Rights, Civil Rights, First American Rights, Restoring Habeas corpus and the entire system of justice in this country.

OK, I know someone will flame me for something, but all I know is that I desire the post primary DU back, when we would flame each other over restaurants and ways to prepare chicken. :hug:

time heals all things. In particular because Obama didn't go from state to state denigrating Hillary Clinton. He's treated her with as much respect as he could afford her under the circumstances.

I learned in 2004 not to fall so hard for my candidate, LOL, but it's still pretty upsetting when you get SO behind someone and just are convinced they'd be perfect and to watch it all fall apart is hard.

But you have good points and time *does* heal. :hi:

The only way I wouldn't vote for Hillary is if the supers gave her the election after she had clearly lost the delegates, like now. Otherwise, I wouldn't have to do anything to get prepared to vote except wake up. I hate her stinking guts and it wouldn't take me anything more than that to vote for her. That's what a democracy means. Sometimes you lose, and yes, get over it.

Because I have a wide field of vision and understand this is not about Obama-Hillary, it's about winning the GE and getting a democrat back in the white house. I think Obama is the better candidate. I think Hillary is a far better choice than McCain.

That's it, and that's all.

than I am, LOL. I think I tend to act on my feelings more, but you are absolutely right in everything you said!

But - she is better than McCain and the people she'd have with her in the WH would be infinitely better than those there now.

Your friend's probably been avoiding getting to know Barack because of her devotion to Hillary, as have most of her die-hard supporters. I know what that feels like because I was a DIE-HARD, go-to-the-national-headquarters-every-day volunteer for John Edwards.

But then something amazing happened: I talked to a few Obama volunteers, and listened a little more closely to Barack, saw his character up close, and realized what a good person he really is.

It isn't hard to believe in Barack Obama once you start getting to know his campaign, his outlook, and his steadfast character. It really isn't.

I don't know that it would be exactly the same for Hillary, as she has done some things I fundamentally disagree with, but I would definitely approach it the same way.

That is pretty hardcore!

I traveled to a few different states for Dean. It was an amazing experience.

And his headquarters were only a few miles from my house.

...if she thinks of Obama as an evil, which I don't.

for Obama stealing her thunder. I would have gladly voted for her, not knowing the truth about how she acts under pressure.

I supported Clinton before my wife switched me to Obama. I think both are a touch conservative and would have Rather had Richardson but he didn't make it far enough. Due to current SCOTUS situation there was no question that i'll vote for the democratic nominee.

I'm on my third choice for president now. I could vote for Clinton against McCain any day.

...but how she gets the nomination and how she performs will directly affect how I support the party. If it turns into Clinton 2.0 - I will not defend them, I'll change my registration to Independent and keep my money to myself.

Obama more than I trust Hillary. I support his bid because he is the better candidate. However, if Hillary were to win the nomination, I would vote for her because a dem in the White House is the goal. We can't let the republicans continue the hell we have been living in and McSame would do just that.

There is no soul searching necessary - it is about not letting a republican control the executive branch and live in the white house.

Even when the dem wins, whether it be Obama or Hillary, we will have to keep vigile, the abuses of office have been so great we have to let those in charge know that we won't put up with any more abuses, that they must abide by the rule of law and respect the balance of power. The legislature creates the law, the executive branch enforces it - it doesn't make the laws or things up as it goes along.

want change by voting for change, despite the old party loyalists, despite the folks that thought it was in the bag, then we have a shot at restoring the people's power. The elected officials of this nation work for us, hopefully the November election will remind them of that.

She would have to publically apologize to Barack Obama and all his supporters for continuing to mock and belittle them throughout this campaign. Only then would I even consider voting for her. Otherwise, I would vote for a third-party candidate (Hello, Mike Gravel) and then vote Democratic down ticket.

then ask myself if I wanted him living here:



Bingo! One more vote for Hillary (hypothetically).

Snarly McSatan. That's PERFECT.

I would have to turn it off months prior...and just think "I'm voting democrat".....not thinking so much about the candidate. but I couldn't participate in these types of conversations...

Stop reading/watching the news. No political conversations. Detox completely from politics until October. And then compare the candidates on the issues.

Yep. I actually had to do that after the general election of 2004. I stepped completely and totally away from all politics/news for quite a while. I had to.

I have no pity for a loyal D who is a Hill supporter who is "going to have a hard time voting for Obama" ...

Obama WON this thing ...

Not even factoring in HOW they ran their race ...

By the rules established AHEAD of time, he has won, and will have won going away ... Hill didn't get the short end of the stick, she didn't get shafted ... She lost ... It is that simple ...

Had things been reversed, had Hill BEAT Obama, so be it ... I am sad for my guy, if comes to having to, I hold my nose, and I vote for the other D ...

End of the day, we are talking general governance of the country, and we are talking Supreme Court Justices ... It could be worse, but still, whatever McCain will do is going to be INFINITELY different than what any D would do ...

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effectively take from the candidate with the most delegates and give to the candidate with the least.

The other major difference is that Obama is black and to take it away from the black man to give it to a white woman just really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Since Hillary's current status has a lot to do with mistakes her campaign made, including probably just having the wrong message, not planning well, and not being nimble enough to change in time, damage her husband did to their brand, aversion to dynasties, etc. I don't understand the animosity of HRC supporters to a democrat who has virtually the same policy positions and who also has given us the opportunity because of his charisma to build a lasting democratic majority

do to be able to vote for the other person.

I DO agree with everything you said, though.

pragmatic Obama supporter. So I really can't relate. I had no feelings for Kerry yet I worked my butt off for him.

I do have feelings regarding Hillary however and she managed to make a dispassionate person genuinely dislike her, by her actions after Super Tuesday. It would never be hard to vote for Hillary but it would be hard to work my butt off for somebody I now view as a lowlife.

it really is practically a throw a bloody wire hanger on her chair situation, or if that's too aggressive, drop a copy of the roe v. wade decision on her desk, or maybe just a photo of the nine supreme court justices, with Ginsburg and Stevens looking older than dust and clearly circled.

Or put a table of statistics on soldier and civilian deaths in Iraq on her desk.

Or an article about Halliburton's obscene profits and Cheney's stake in the company.

Or just a picture of McCain that captures how fucking out of his mind the man is.

Or a copy of the Constitution or just an American flag and remind her that what we do in November MATTERS.

I'd really like you to tell her to stop being so damn selfish, but I'm sure that's not what you're looking for. But if your personal feelings are more important to you than the fate of the country and the world and the environment and the people out there who NEED HELP- and I say this to you, too, if you would have had the same problem with the roles reversed- you have a problem.

I think Hillary is a morally indefensible, contemptible creep. The world is more important. My personal feelings here are irrelevant in comparison to the CONSEQUENCES we are looking at here.

is this fucking thing on???

Who are you angry at, me? I thought your post was good, especially the last part. The consequences ARE bigger!

I have enough ageta banging my head into the brick wall that is explaining why the Clinton position on MI and Fl is indefensible, but it sometimes feels like I'm typing into a void. I'm tired and cranky.

I did think I gave you some pretty good options.

:woohoo:

since I asked the question. I'm just chasing tiny kittens, taking care of a child, and my mother in law is trying to IM me, LOL. So it was taking me a bit to get to everyone.

and the partisan bullshit ones got less play around here.

Spending time typing on the internet is a sucker's play, anyway, so don't think I blame you.

I was really worried just about posting this. Things are pretty...heated. But I've got to say--this has been a good thread so far!

than the world around us. It is an act of spectacular selfishness and self-centeredness to not vote for the democratic nominee in November.

This election is the most critical elections of my entire Long life. Personal favorite candidates is a natural state but not one to get hysterical about. When Dean lost in 04 (my favorite) and Kerry was our nominee I was terribly anxious for him to win. He wasn't forceful when I felt he should have been with issues and people didn't bother to hear all he had to say explaining himself. He would have made a good president. This time Biden seemed to get it right, he left, then Edwards caught my attention, he left, and then there were two. Since I knew so little about Obama decided to check him out and liked what I learned. Hillary disappointed me when she would talk around a subject and never commit. Sincerity does not seem to be one of her finer points, Still, she will get my vote should she be nominated. No way could I vote for a repub.

Your post was one of my fav on this post and there were many good ones I almost responded to but am feeling super stupid tonight and knew that is exactly how I'd write - oh well

nm

Hillary has turned out too dispicable to ever earn my vote.

Obama/Boxer, the audacity of '08!

Hillary needs to take a course in humility, ha

I would think of the smirks on the reTHUGs faces in getting in yet another puppet. :puke: I would also think about the crying :cry: they will do if a Democrat gets the Whitehouse :evilgrin: I think that would help me vote for the Democratic candidate that I really don't like. :-)

Awesome! And I agree.

and remind myself what is at stake.

I live in a blue state and there's no way I'd stay home. Putting a Democrat in the White House isn't about a particular person. It's about what happens to the people as a result of the election. Democratic policies are superior to Republican policies and there would never, ever be a problem about voting for someone I opposed in the primaries.

So that I would see it when I put my hand up to vote.

That is all. And truthfully I probably wouldn't even have to do that, because to me it makes no sense to base a vote on emotional attachments or issues.

And lest you write this off as "well, clearly MH1 doesn't have all that much problem with Hillary in the first place", no that is not true - I have huge problems with Hillary. It is just that my problems with McCain are huger and I know how the system works and I won't cut my nose off to spite my face.

I shudder to think of the Supreme Court implications.

as a president. I mean really do it. My spiritual practice uses a lot of visualization so I'm pretty good at it after 30 years. I'd really try to experience the world with McCain and president - I don't think it would take long to make a decision :-).

That sort of thing doesn't take place in a 'heated discussion'; as a matter of fact that's about the worst way I can think of to do it successfully. So, I'd stay out of such activities until I'd achieved equanimity.

a couple of hours ago. I was wondering how I would feel if Edwards endorsed Hillary. I've considered the possibility of a Clinton nomination and I have thought that I would focus on the positive aspects of her message. Believe me, there have been times when I have been so upset with her that I considered not voting, but I cool down and resolve that if she is the democratic candidate, I would find something to love about her.

there'd be no hesitation on my part in a GE.

and hope I remember to vote when the day comes. I definitely could not defend her to people as I would if I were to campaign for someone.

I would put it in its proper perspective and just do the damned thing...pull the lever for the Democratic nominee. I just cannot see giving it more than a shrug, and say win some, lose some.

That is from my heart.

Pretty much not thinking about the elections for some time or giving it a rest. I just can not see myself voting for Hillary. However, come around election day I would still go out and vote for her.

WAY worse.

I would all I can to make sure McCain loses in November.

the best candidates never even make it to general election anyway.

I think the answer is painfully simple. Of course the vast majority if not all Obama supporters would vote for her.

The only thing that has turned off the democratic vote for Hillary is her vile, immoral, tasteless, and divisive campaign. Which happens to be the same reason we don't have to deal with Clinton winning the primary.

Take a break from it all just to be able to breathe again. Then ... (remember, taking medicine is rarely pleasant) ...


Rush Limbaugh. No kidding. Turn him on and listen to the vile spew that comes out of your radio for long enough. You won't be able to help yourself, you'll be ready to run to the polls to vote in November.

Only 4 years ago and 5 of them never made it back from Iraq. I'd like that to be the final toll, as one life was already one too many

Realistically, that is probably what would happen. I'd go along sulking, and then he'd say or do something that reminds me of why I'm a Democrat. Maybe he'd say some absolute nonsense about taxing everyone else to give a cut for the rich, or his 527s would attack Hillary's entire gender. Or he'd cozy up with some nutjobs who say hateful things about some other group. Or he'd sound truly dangerous. Over time, if the nomination was wrapped up, I'd partially forget some of what has bothered me so much during this campaign.

I actually liked John Edwards, and when he dropped out, I had a hard time choosing between Hillary and Obama. My wife and I had long conversations about the two candidates and we both decided that Obama would have a much better chance against McCain. We thought that the republicans would probably be able to dig up a lot more dirt on her in the general election.

As time went on, I found myself disliking Hillary more and more. When she told the big fish story I was mad. That was it, no more Hillary for me. Everyone can stretch the truth now and then, but to me it was inexcusable for someone running for the highest office in the land. No one will change my mind about her, no one.

I'm sure your friend probably feels the same way about Obama. Once you pick a candidate you have to defend them, it is difficult for anyone to change your mind.

When the primary race started, I volunteered to be neighborhood captain for the general election this fall. If Hillary were the nominee, there is no way that I could take on the job as aptain. I would have to let a true Hillary supporter take the job, because my heart and sole would not be in it. (But I would still vote for Hillary.)

My recommendation is that you avoid talking to your friend about the candidates until the primary is over. If the subject comes up change the subject and reminder her of John McCain, and leave the Democratic nominees out of it.

Remind her that John McCain wants to...

1)Bomb, Bomb Iran, bomb, bomb Iran.
2)Stay in Iraq for another hundred years.
3)That he admits that he knows nothing about the economy.
4)That he is inspired by a domes day minister from here in Ohio named Parsley.
and so on...

based on that. Do you care about who is on the Supreme Court? Do you care about health care reform? If so, pull the lever even though you personally hate the guy.

On the other hand, if you don't really care about the issues, stay home in that case.

...because the greater evil will do such harm over the next four years that it'll take us decades to recover.

It's a lousy choice to have to make, but we all have a responsibility to make our voices heard. Nothing will change unless we make it happen.

  And hope all I have learned would somehow fade...

PB

I'm not foolish enough to allow my personal feelings to keep me from doing what I know is right for the country and our party. There is simply too much at stake to be foolish in this election. The world can't afford a continuation of Bush policies. There really isn't a choice to make.

I'd just vote for Hillary and hope to the high heavens she wins. She's day to McCain's night. I've seen what living in the Republican darkness has done to this country. I don't want a repeat performance of that EVER again in my lifetime. I plan on doing everything in my power to try to keep that from happening. Which includes remaining politically active and always voting for whichever candidate comes closest to reflecting my views. I don't care if they were my first choice or not.

I'm a Democrat

is SHE one?

jeezus

who I've heard would like to retire... and then I'd think about wheter voting my "conscience" was really about voting my "ego" or not... try to convince myself that I should vote for the good of the country over whatever my ego wants to do... and I'd see if I could do it.

I wouldn't have to prepare. I'd go in and vote for the Democrat in a heartbeat because the things that are going on in this country right now, and in Iraq are way more important to me than any human being that I might've put on a pedestal, or just really really liked. This is about the Democratic party, not the Obama party or the Hillary party. If I happened to be a little overzealous and thought "my candidate or nobody" I would probably do as you say, and ignore the internet and media for a while. At least for a few weeks after this is over, and the party starts coming around together like we should. You have to take emotion out of it, and remember this is politics I guess. Maybe some can't do that, but in the end I suspect most will if people, like the Taylor Marsh person I don't really know much about, stops fanning the flames of this division.

1. Allow some time to pass so my wounds could heal. That's just natural after supporting someone so strongly for so many months.

2. I'd have to think about the actual effects of me staying home or going against the Democrat. The effects are considerable: Far right wing Supreme Court justices, more war, and the continuation of this lopsided economic "program."

I know how you feel. As others have said I too was a Deaniac in 2004; it was tough as hell to swallow his loss. Just as I'm sure you feel about Hillary, I believed with every fiber of my being that Dean was the best candidate who'd make the best president. But evidently the majority of voters didn't agree with me so I had to swallow it (as tough as that was).

But I think the best logical argument against staying home or voting for McSame is this: If you do either of those, upon whom do you believe you're exacting your revenge? Obama? The country? While denying Obama the presidency would in fact "get back at him" for whatever ills you think he caused you, it has another more pronounced effect on the innocent population of this country. If you're willing to risk 4 or 8 more years of war in Iraq, joblessness, foreclosures, more right wing Supreme Court judges and perhaps the evisceration of Roe v. Wade, and the continuation of saber rattling with Iran simply to "get back" at some guy who campaigned against your candidate, then I suggest you've got a bigger question you need to resolve: To whom or what do your loyalties lie? A candidate or the country?

there - and it would be fairly easy.

I dislike intensely the way the Clintons have run their campaign. I think far, far less of both of them now than I did before this started.

But heck, compared to McCain?

I'm a Democrat. That's all I need to know.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/

And I would force myself to spend time looking at each and every baby face in that link.

And I would be utterly convinced that I owed them my vote to end this insane war.

That will NOT happen with another RW republican warmonger in the White House.