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canis_lupus Donating Member (213 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 01:25 PM
Original message
Why don't those hillbillies like Obama?
From Salon:

May 20, 2008 | WHITESBURG, Ky. -- In analyzing the returns from last week's West Virginia Democratic primary, a phalanx of reporters and commentators have explained Hillary Clinton's landslide victory by pointing out that West Virginians are a special set of Democrats, white, low income and undereducated. Some, like Josh Marshall of Talking Points Memo and Jonathan Tilove of the Newhouse papers, have linked the lackluster performance of Barack Obama in West Virginia to a larger Appalachian problem. These writers connect the presumptive nominee's defeat in West Virginia, his previous losses in Ohio and Pennsylvania, and an anticipated poor outing in Tuesday's Kentucky primary, to the historical, geographic and cultural imperatives shared by Appalachian mountain people.

The legions of pseudonym-laden online posters who follow in political punditry's wake are less restrained in describing the shortcomings of Sen. Clinton's Appalachian supporters. They suggest it has to do with her voters being racist, toothless, shoeless, and prone to marrying their cousins. In short, they characterize these "special" Democrats in much the same terms they used in quieter times to describe Republicans.

Mountain people have long been considered exotic. The eminent British historian Sir Arnold Toynbee described the residents of Appalachia in 1947 as "the American counterparts of the latter-day white barbarians of the Old World -- Rifis, Albanians, Kurds, Pathans, and Hairy Ainus." They have also served as a sort of Rorschach test for the rest of America. When the country needs iconic war heroes like Alvin York or Jessica Lynch, mountaineers fill the bill. If, periodically, this rich nation needs people to pity, poverty-stricken hillbillies make excellent poster children. And if backers of the Democratic Party's presumptive nominee need to explain why their preferred candidate is not connecting with downscale, rural voters -- a demographic that was once key to Democratic electoral success -- Appalachia can again answer the call. Obama supporters and members of the media can place the blame for his poor fortunes not on the candidate or his message, but on the moral failings of those benighted mountain people.

However, the unnerving truth for the erstwhile party of Jefferson may be that Appalachia, for all its legend and lore, is not that different politically from the rest of the small-town and rural parts of the country where 60 million of us live. And that could mean trouble for the fall.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/05/20/appalachia/
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. "may be that Appalachia, for all its legend and lore, is not that different politically"
Edited on Tue May-20-08 01:29 PM by Occam Bandage
This is a great example of spin. The entire piece rests on one unsupported assertion, following a lengthy lead-in, and followed by endless analysis of anything but that sentence.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. Wow - the lengths white folks go to in order to avoid calling other white folks racist is amazing.
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. LOL!
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Thank you!
It's like the Truth That Dare Not Speak Its Name.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Our blockade on that word is strong.
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Truer words are rarely spoken. nt
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FredScuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. *ahem* "blue-collar" if you please
or "hard-working"
or "rural"
or "Appalachian"
or "proud Americans"

Learn the new lingo!
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DangerousRhythm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
50. Or as Tweety said on the day of the Pennsylvania primary...
"Cultural conservatives on the ethnic front".

NO kidding.

:rofl:
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NatBurner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. right?
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. lol n/t
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VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
38. but when blacks vote 90% for obama, that's *not* racist? save it.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #38
54. Do you have video of black people saying they will never vote for a white man?
I didn't think so. Black people have been voting for white candidates since we've been able to vote. We've even been known to vote for white candidates instead of black candidates running in the same race. Your premise is wrong and your conclusion idiotic.

<insert fail picture here>

Regards
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knixphan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. Thank you, Raineyb
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Labors of Hercules Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #54
64. Never heard it said better.
spot. on. :thumbsup:
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Ashy Larry Donating Member (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #38
65. There is a difference.
Blacks have always voted for white presidential candidates. Whites have never voted for black presidential candidates. There is a difference between voting FOR someone because they look like you and voting AGAINST someone because they don't.
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Liberal Gramma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #38
71. No, it's not
Blacks have supported white candidates since emancipation. If they vote for the black candidate, it's identity politics combined with understandable pride in having one of their own reach political heights. If someone votes AGAINST someone based on race, then that IS racism.
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ampad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #38
79. No you save it
Like the person below you said: produce a video of black people calling Hillary a honky or any racist name or save it. I guess since some of you are taking up for the racist now you have taken on their mentality, thinking you are the smartest person in the room. You see the funny thing about AA is that we don't like to be insulted. Had Hillbilly not insulted AA she might be receiving more than 10% of the black vote and oh btw, that 90% includes black republicans as well. Too bad Hillary has to reach down in the gutter and get the stupid, backwater racist vote in order to make a case for staying in the race. Too bad those people would never vote for her in the GE because what some of you fail to realize is right behind racism there is sexism. Sure you talk about Obama supporters and Obama being racist but you forget your new found friends are just as sexist as they come. They may be racist first but they are sexist second. If it came down to McCain and Hillary in KY and WV she doesn't stand a chance in hell. The direct correlation between education and the ism's is no secret.
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Hieronymus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
39. I know someone who embraced the idea that Obama wasn't observant .
of the flag ... truth is, she's a racist.
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
41. Amazing also the lengths some people will go to to avoid actually understanding something.
Did you even read the article?
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. It's about time you guys got organized and finally got in on this!
:rofl:
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
52. Really!
It's quite a feat. I wonder how he manages it without tripping over himself.

Regards
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knixphan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
59. LOL!
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
63. Pretty amazing the short memories that people have of Obama insulting
all those small town folk when he was hanging with the fat cats on "Billionaires Row"
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aaronbees Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
74. Absolutely
It's getting really tiresome to see - on DU of all places. This primary has really brought out some of the inner racist of some Democrats.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
8. This lost me when it put Alvin York and Jessica Lynch in the same sentence.
Alvin York literally kicked ass, I have nothing against Jessica Lynch, but I believe she was turned in to a war hero more as a Pentagon, media creation because she was one of the first to be wounded and she was a woman.

This served two purposes early in the war, heroic propaganda and validation of women going in to a dangerous situation, in some respects I liken her analogy more to that of Pat Tillman, the football star killed in Afghanistan by friendly fire. They validated his death by making it out to be a heroic battle against the enemy as opposed to an accident.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Alvin York Was a Psychopath
We're just lucky he was a Psychopath for America.

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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Alvin York wasn't a psychopath, he was wild as a youth
and became deeply religious after being struck by lightening and surviving, he was a conscientious objector at first after being drafted but after his pastor counseled him that it was ok to go to war he did in a big way, he saved his squad from an ambush by German machine gun nests and single handedly shot 20+ Germans by flanking them, they thought they were surrounded and over a 100 of them gave up. He was a damn good shot growing up turkey shooting and he used the same technique in combat.
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
9. The very fact that you call them "hillbillies" explains the answer
in full.
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NatBurner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. the author of the article called them hillbillies
that's the headline
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cbayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
11. Interesting article
Other quotes.

"Maybe the party that once welcomed Appalachian coal miners and hillside farmers has moved on. The national Democratic Party has become younger, richer, hipper and far less interested in preserving an identity forged in the Great Depression. Who really wants a political party full of poor mountaineers? Perhaps, in the minds of some, "Coal Miner's Daughter" has been supplanted by "Deliverance."


"How Obama fares in rural America may, in the end, have to do with whether he shows up. In politics not showing up and losing are kissing cousins. Obama made three visits to West Virginia. In Kentucky, he limited himself to appearances in the state's two biggest cities, Louisville and Lexington. He didn't come to my part of the state, or try to make any friends in rural areas."

If there is racism or bigotry driving some of these votes, the most important step in addressing it is to make an appearance. People tend to lose their prejudices when they come face to face with what they do not know or understand. Obama must begin to appeal to rural voters and he needs to do it soon.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
12. This will change......it's just a matter of time.


How in the General Election, Character will Trump Melanin


have picked up on the fact that many Americans are asking themselves and each other; can Obama win a General Election? Whether the question comes with a doubting sneer from his fervent detractors, or quietly within the minds of his thoughtful supporters, the question is undeniably being pondered from sea to shining sea.

An affirmative answer does not come easily, and is as complex as the question being asked.

In terms of electability, Obama has all of what is needed in a winning candidate. he is popular, youthful and vigorous, has a wonderful telegenic family, a committed sense of optimism and gives the kind of speeches that other politicians can only dream of. His platform is sound, and his consistent theme for change is what a majority of Americans are currently clamoring for. Whether by virtue of his silky booming voice or his superior GOTV organization which is quickly becoming legendary, Obama is a superior candidate in every measurable way. Not sullied from overstaying the Washington mentality, he is the ultimate Hopemonger. His fund raising apparatus and his total campaign strategy will be studied for years to come. In other words, he is the dream candidate that any party would be happy to have as its leader.

His opponent, who's biggest claim to fame is a past era war hero resume is in reality old, grey, physically unfit, and ideologically passe. McCain can barely fill a room with his fraudulent "out of the box trapped in the bigger box" speeches, and is a member of a party hopeless linked to a most unpopular President. Sen. McCain voted for war, and has shown no insight to be proud of in the promotion of peace. His domestic views, when closely examined spell not "Change", but more of the same dismal failures enacted by the current President.

And so one has to get to the truth as to why the initial question about Sen. Obama is asked as often as it is; can Sen. Obama beat Sen. McCain and win the presidency?

I submit, that in fact, the only reason some still insist that Sen. Clinton or Sen. McCain may be more electable; has nothing to do with anything more than the content of melanin in Obama's skin.

It is known that Americans tend to vote into the White House, the candidate that they believe in their mind, will be welcomed in their living rooms for 4 years. And due to this simplistic method of assessing an election, there are some with doubts that Barack Obama will be chosen as that one.

But I suggest that simply put, the answer is Yes; Barack Obama can and will win the general election and become the 44th President of the United States.

How I came to my pronouncement is simple and complicated at the same time. You see, Americans, just like people everywhere do see beyond color, in particular in respect to someone they get to know. Once the melanin factor is diminished, for those who have an initial lack of comfort with it, the question then becomes what is left for those people to see in Obama? The answer was quoted by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. years ago, in his famous "I have a Dream" speech; the content of his character.

Obama has to-date received the votes of those who have not had to battle hard over the tall walls of prejudice. While many saw Obama's character long ago, many other saw it in short order.

It is the rest of the people, those for whom it will take more time to allow melanin to fade before they see the depths of his character, who will determine the candidacy conclusion of Barack Obama.

Those Americans will have six months to get to know Barack Obama; six months to witness his character "up close". I strongly believe that Sen. Obama will be successful largely getting this accomplished, as Barack Obama really is an extraordinary man. That is evidenced by the mere fact that he stands before us today--because the odds that this would be the case have not favored him since his father met his mother.

Take to heart and understand that he represents the country that we should be. If he, a person of mixed ancestry, for whatever reason cannot transcend the prejudice that exists in this country, then we are not who we say we are, and we will have to deal with that.

But be reassured that I have faith in us as a people. Perhaps because I myself am of mixed race, and emigrated (him from Hawaii to Chicago, me from France to California) and I truly understand what the gifts of intelligence and charisma and foresight can do in reference to those around you.

And so it is with my own personal experience in mind, that I humbly suggest.....Barack's character will shine through the exterior veneer composed of his melanin by a majority of Americans in more than enough time. And that is why Barack Obama can and will win the general election.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_frenchie_080517_how_in_the_general_e.htm
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cbc5g Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
15. they are nativists
They don't like and have trouble trusting people who dont look like them, talk like them, act like them or dress like them. It's been that way since they came here from europe. They seperated themselves in the mountains away from the rest of america. Even so, they were instrumental in causing the defeat of great britain in the revolutionary war with their superb guerrilla tactics.

Can they be called racist? Yeah but if you are white and don't act like them or talk like them or are gay or whatever then they won't like or trust you either.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. imagine you were talking about black people with all those "they's"
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. "They" is a pronoun, not a statement. OP was the one who presented the group as homogenous.
Discussion along OP's terms, without use of "they," is impossible.
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cbc5g Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. except my they meant appalachian people
Edited on Tue May-20-08 03:01 PM by cbc5g
and everyone who's traveled to or moved to appalachia from anywhere else will pick up on the nativism and racism right away. It's blatant and disgusting. If you are black you can expect to be racially profiled and looked down on in west virginia. It's an observation not a prejudice. If most everyone there didn't act nativist or racist towards others who aren't like them then I wouldnt call them out for it.

I don't think it's all their fault. Poverty and lack of education leads to simple minds. More needs to be done to educate and help those in appalachia.
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haymakeragain Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
18. Coal.
Hillobeans is promising to burn coal forever, don't doubt it.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. um, between the two, Obama is much more favorable to coal
this is largely due to the importance of coal in Illinois
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haymakeragain Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. Clean coal, not status quo coal.
Behind the scenes could be very different than in the sunshine.
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
21. Thanks to the respondents here for helping me to decide....
... whether to keep fighting the battle against bigotry and class warfare on DU or to just to throw in the towel and leave this place to the self-appointed lords of the flies.

Despite repeated pleas to the mods and adminstrators here to curtail the kind of vile prejudice some of you continue to spew against people of Appalachia, it's obvious that the whole notion of even giving pause to your invectives is little more than a joke to you. You giggle and snort at the cleverness of your snide remarks, your painting of all Appalachians as racists, ignorant, "culturally inferior"... you laugh at posting photos of supposed "hillbillies" passed out naked on outdoor toilets, accuse them for their poverty, demean them for their own lack of education. You blame the powerless for your own lack of control, and feel better for labeling others who have so little themselves as beneath even your contempt.

Well by all means give yourselves a pat on the back for managing to package your very own brand of a poisoned vision for a new America.

Had the kind of posts and threads I have read here been posted about any other group of people in this country, there are a number of you who would have been tombstoned long ago and rightly so. And I'm sorry to say that among the more reasoned and cogent voices for Mr. Obama, I have seen far too few who are willing to take a stand against your brand of bigotry and bullying. That says a lot to me.

So have at it. I think it's abundantly clear now that there are no consequences for preaching your kind of hate.

What a joke indeed.

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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. It's fairly obvious you wrote this rant before reading any of the replies here.
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Nope. You're WRONG.
But on top of everything else, go ahead and call me a liar for good measure. Frankly, I don't give a damn.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. There is no "bigotry and bullying" in this thread. There is no mockery of Appalachians, either.
Edited on Tue May-20-08 03:00 PM by Occam Bandage
There's disagreement with the OP's assertion, but that's about all. Claiming that racial politics may have played a role in a state is hardly "bullying," as there's no bashing of Appalachian people here. You seem more eager to take offense than actually offended.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. You're welcome! Better luck hiding the elephant in another party! Tootles!
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. And you're one of the primary leaders of this particular gang
If the mods haven't laid down the law for you by now it's obvious they aren't going to, period. Enjoy your reign.



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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. (beam)
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FredScuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. BURN!
n/t
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. I should put together a Greatest Moments In Race-Traitor History.
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msallied Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. LMAO! You are quickly becoming one of my favorites here.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #35
47. Yep, you really got a lot out of that whiteness theory grad seminar.
Edited on Tue May-20-08 04:12 PM by QC
You've been milking it ever since you showed up here.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Ewww. lol! Who needs a seminar for what you can see right in front of your eyes?
That's like people who do scientific studies on "People like food that tastes good".

:rofl:
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #51
57. Then I wish you would direct that penetrating gaze onto the class system sometime.
It would certainly add some depth to what you post here.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #57
68. Aww sheesh - "it's not race, it's class"? That's soooo 80s.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. And either/or thinking? That's so, I dunno, "low information."
Only fools think that complex phenomena are "really all about" only one thing.

Here's a possibility --brace yourself-- maybe race and class and sex and other factors interact in complex and sometimes contradictory ways.

I know that's not as simple as posting a bunch of one-liners about the white folks and how they are all alike, but it's certainly a lot more likely to get at some usable truth about the world we live in.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. Awww... Now you're just making shit up. White folks are most DEFINITELY not all alike...
That's why Maine, Vermont, Iowa, North Dakota, Wyoming, Idaho, and others are to be thanked - for proving EXACTLY that fact.

No, it seems to really ONLY be Appalachia - where my family is from, that's the problem for Obama:

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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #72
82. That is a Very Revealing Map
Thank you for posting.
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
34. The thing about those hillbillies ...
If it hadn't been for them answering the call and routing the British at King's Mountain, we'd probably still be British.

But those proud sons and daughters of the Scots-Irish immigrants were pretty damn good shots ...

Bake
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FredScuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
36. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.....
so....are you leaving or what?
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #21
42. Well said. n-t
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demo dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
45. Oh, I sooooo agree with you!
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #21
46. I wish I could recommend this post.
The U.S. has the only "Left" in the world that cares nothing about class, and it's probably no coincidence that we also have the weakest and least relevant Left of any western nation.

It's time to rediscover class, instead of pretending that it doesn't exist, like the Republicans, or worse yet, piling on the victims of the class system and blaming them for their situations.
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Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #46
53. I wish I could recommend your post
You nailed. The Left in the US doesn't care much about class and is relatively weak compared to that of other nations. And it shouldn't be a surprise. It's filled with people who need a boogey-man to blame social problems or social progress on...and that boogey-man is white people who are poor, uneducated and live in the mountains.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. Thanks!
Richard Rorty has a great book on the Old Left/New Left split called Achieving Our Country. Everyone here should read it--it makes an excellent case for the need for a class-based Left.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #56
75. There's only one problem with your premise
In this country color trumps class.

Slavery was basically a way for the rich in this country to undercut poor whites by brining in free labor which obviously free people who need to pay their bills could not compete with. They then convinced these poor snookered people that they as poor whites were better because -well they're white.

Now over a hundred years after the end of the civil war, we have poor white people who will not vote for a black man who can improve things for them because they refuse to vote for a black man. In addition, these same folks will not work with their equally poor black neighbors because the neighbors are black. So basically, what the people who share this view believe is that no matter how poor they are materially, how fucked up things are in their lives, how much the mining companies fuck up their environment, their whiteness is the most valuable thing they have and they're not willing to put that aside to work with their black neighbors to improve things or for that matter to vote for the black man who will do more for them than the Republican party they voted for in the last two presidential elections.

And the left has a problem with class? No, the left has a problem with race. Until poor white people who will not vote for a black man or work with their black neighbors, or join up with organizations that yes, will have black people working in it, get it out of their head that their whiteness is their most valuable asset there can be no movement on class. We have too many people voting against their class interests to vote Republican because the Republican pretends to be a "good old boy" and they know that the Republicans will keep those "uppity negroes" in their place.

Regards
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #75
76. Bingo. Racial divisiveness has been a huge impediment to class-based organizing n/t
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #75
78. Sorry but your analysis is faulty: rich and upper middle class secular liberals are almost as racist
I live in one of the most liberal small towns in America
(by every statistical measure) and the racial and class
snobbery is overwhelming.

What did Jesus say about the beam in our own eye? There
is no point in being all high and mighty about the racial
hostility of a redneck who's never even met a black man
when rich liberals are TEARING DOWN F'N PUBLIC HOUSING IN
YOUR CITY and your neighbors do nothing about it (except
encourage Dems to stop pandering to working class)
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. I never said rich and upper middle class people weren't racist
But there are more poor people of all colors than there are rich people. If poor whites joined forces with poor black and brown people they could certainly do a lot more in the political system by their sheer numbers then the small group of rich people.

That's not just true in the rural areas, that's true in the cities too.

But they don't. What's worse they deliberately vote against their own interests in order to hold on to that ever useless whiteness they hold so dear.

My point which you appear to have deliberately missed, was that poor white folks should be aligning with their poor black neighbors. Instead, they vote with the rich people who have their foot on all of their necks because they see their whiteness as something too valuable to give up.

As to the liberals and public housing, I don't know what liberals you're talking about who tear down public housing. The ones I see are fucking Republicans of which the particularly nasty variety use natural disasters to deliberately tear down public housing that was in perfectly repairable condition in order to keep the black population from returning to a certain deluged city and fork over prime real estate to their developer buddies.

Admittedly, NIMBY is not only prevalent in Republican neighborhoods but as you weren't discussing building public housing that's not really apt here.

One last note, I would suggest you educate yourself about public housing. (And some groups attempts to undermine it.) For the record, not every person who lives in it is black nor is every black person a public housing resident so you I think you can guess where I'd suggest you take your assumption about where I live.

Regards
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #46
77. EXACTLY.
Of Course, Clinton is no better, her core constituency are
socially liberal, culturally conservative
(i.e. security conscious neoliberal white) yuppies -- Blue Dogs.

They have an entitlement mentality that does not extend beyond
the narrow confines of the (upper) middle class.

They are anti-Leftist.

As Michael Lind and Thomas Frank predicted, you have two elite
factions fighting each other for the right to rule over the
rest of the country -- a neoliberal cultural elite vs. a faux-populist
Reaganite anti-left.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
31. Obviously, they were very tolerable as far as Bill's sexual transgressions...
Otherwise, they would not have supported Hillary? Perhaps they are more tolerable than America as a whole?
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #31
66. What the hell does Bill's transgressions have to do with Hillary?
You sound like a Rethug!
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
32. It should be noted that he didn't really campaign there...
So they weren't really given a chance to give him a chance in return.

I'm certain that once he's able to spend time there and talk about his economic and energy policies, many will come around.

But that's not going to happen if fellow Dems keep mocking them.
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #32
67. That's has always been his excuse.
The fact is...he wouldn't have won...even if he campaigned. Kind of like WI!
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
40. The nominee has to campaign there.
I agree with the analysis in this paragraph:

"The reality is that when Democratic candidates run competitively in rural America, they win national elections. And when they get creamed in rural America, they lose. That was Bill Clinton's reality in winning as it was the reality for Al Gore and John Kerry in narrowly losing."

Interesting piece overall.

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demo dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
44. When Dems get creamed in rural America, they lose the GE. I fully expect a repeat of 2004
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
48. You, sir, are a Hairy Ainus ...
:rofl:

Best group name evah!
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MarjorieG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
49. For Democrats, and some other states, it's all about the Clinton brand.
Which is not universally a positive thing, and is not about change. As Obama says, it's not about him waving a magic wand, or about all we can accomplish in one term.

Some get it, and some don't.

Bill and Hill will never believe they aren't the future, and the importance of that view.
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aquarius dawning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
55. I guess they just don't identify with him. Same reason 9 out of 10 black voters prefer Obama
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
58. He said "Hairy Ainus". n/t
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
60. Hill-Bill-ies ... sort of fitting, eh?
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susankh4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
62. K&R
The author is on firm footing. She knows Appalacia.

And she is being unbiased. Which the Obama folks would realize if they actually read the article... rather than start calling everybody racist. Alas, to them ... EVERYBODY is racist if they don't automatically choose Obama for our nominee.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
70. Why do racist, backward, cliquish, rural white folks from Jim Crow country oppose Obama?
The question makes more sense the way I have posed it above.
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superkia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
73. I would guess most of them are uneducated and poor. They get...
home and watch the 24 hour propaganda networks and believe what the box tells them. Too many people believe everything the media and the government tells them, I think those same people are either blind or stupid? If you say it enough, it becomes the truth to many. I was reading the other day, something about 30 some thousand scientists signing a petition rejecting claims of human-caused global warming. I have always left my mind open on this on because it seems to be shoved down our throats non stop by the trusted media and government, with mentions of a global carbon tax which would eventually just be passed down to all of us to profit someone?


I am not saying I believe these scientists either but I refuse to just close my mind to others on the subject, I would just be showing my ignorance if I did. Nothing is just open and closed, many accept the original JFK story and the 9/11 story but I am one that looks at all sides of things before making decisions, I wish more would do the same.


This was a clip from the article :

The purpose of OISM's Petition Project is to demonstrate that the claim of "settled science" and an overwhelming "consensus" in favor of the hypothesis of human-caused global warming and consequent climate damage is wrong. No such consensus or settled science exists. As indicated by the petition text and signatory list, a very large number of American scientists reject this hypothesis.

It is evident that 31,072 Americans with university degrees in science - including 9,021 PhDs, are not "a few." Moreover, from the clear and strong petition statement that they have signed, it is evident that these 31,072 American scientists are not "skeptics."

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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
81. I am a "hillbilly"..
Thanks for all your kind comments. :patriot:
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