Anyone else sick of the Kerry hand-wringing here?

Read:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=605385&mesg_id=605385

On DU, seriously?

That like, never happens here.

Odd.

;)

Again, one must thank Jesus every day - in words and in writing - that DU is not running Kerry's campaign.

(thank you jesus)

:D

nt

:crazy:

but people need to express their doubts and disappoinments and get the information they need to feel good about backing him.

I didn't know the full story on his IWR vote until someone was lamenting it and threatening not to vote. You, Mr. Pitt, came back with an excellent summation of Kerry's position and the full context of his response on the question. If I hadn't read that thread, I wouldn't have learned that vital information and would have continued to have doubts about his position, even though I would still have voted for him as I am not a one-issue voter.

So I guess I don't think it's all bad. :shrug:

Gives you well-informed people a chance to educate some of us who aren't as in the know...

There have been 2,416,882. :)

I came to DU after hearing about this on another site, in part because I was SURE that if I sifted through enough threads, I'd get the facts.

And after spending about 2 hours here, that's what has happened. I have read enough to understand what has happened, and how it's being twisted and misrepresented.

I'm still not comfortable with the "National Security Advisor" quote. And no one has adequately explained that one. But I think I'm clear on Kerry's position.

If he repudiates or replaces his National Security Advisor, I'll have the closure I need! ;-)

good about anything. they are intently focused on their mission to poo poo everything despite logic and reason. it just gets old after awhile.

Once in a while I'll laugh. Kerry wins in November.

I agree with you about the hand-wringing...but who could resist fudge? :)

P.S. Check your pm

make it snappy though, I may be leaving work early and my modem at home is being nuts. I actually knew a Keyes supporter for president, he didnt go to public school because of it heh, his mom was considering letting him go to public school then this kid who btw was home schooled oto threw a rock at their car, and then she listened to Alan Keyes, I wonder what they think of Gary Bauer haha.

so I can't vote for him.

...going on these rants about Kerry before understanding what's going on.

Another example of the "hobbyist contrarian" phenomenon.

Like Martin Escher's man painting a man painting a man painting a man painting a man painting a man painting a man painting a man painting a man...

We're here to comment on comments on comments on comments on comments...

Yummmmmm fudge!

Somehow a few dems have gotten the idea that a candidate mustn't appeal to the masses, only to them. If they don't share the exact same opinions on everything, they freak out.

And I still think some of the hand wringers are agents provacateur who are only here to divide.

What kind you got? I had me some chocolate rasberry fudge the other day.

seems like standard DU operating procedure lately. . .

:wtf:

EOM

that has turned the Democratic party into a Karl Rove's bitch stable

Challenging Kerry on his Iraq vote

By Scott Ritter | August 5, 2004

WITH THE release last month of the report by the Senate Select Committee on intelligence and Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, John Kerry was handed a gift that rarely occurs in a major political race: the chance to underscore a major failing on the part of an opponent. The committee found that there was no intelligence data to sustain President Bush's oft-cited reason for last year's invasion of Iraq -- the presence of WMDs and ongoing projects dedicated to their manufacture. Kerry said that the Bush administration had been "wrong, and soldiers lost their lives because they were wrong."
ADVERTISEMENT


But Kerry failed to address that he was also wrong and that it was his leadership in the Senate that enabled President Bush to oversee the most flagrant abrogation of congressional constitutional responsibilities in modern time, the October 2002 vote to give Bush power to wage war against Iraq without assuring that there was a clear and present threat to the United States. It is Kerry's yes vote that calls into question the character of the man who wants to replace Bush in the White House.

When asked if he would agree with other Democratic senators who said they would not have voted to give Bush war powers authority if they had known about the lack of intelligence on WMD, Kerry let his vice presidential nominee, Senator John Edwards, speak for him: "I'm not going to go back and answer hypothetical questions about what I would have done had I known this." Kerry concurred with Edwards, adding, "The vote is not today, and that's it."

More than 900 American troops in Iraq are dead and more than 5,000 wounded as a result of that vote, numbers that are sure to go higher. Kerry cannot honestly say he was not aware of the paucity of verifiable intelligence concerning the existence of WMD in Iraq on the eve of war. I personally discussed this matter with Kerry in April 2000 and again with his senior staff in June 2002. I asked Kerry to allow me to testify before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee during its hearing on Iraq in July-August 2002 but was denied. Kerry knew that there was a viable case to be made to debunk the president's statements regarding the threat posed by Iraq's WMD, but he chose not to act on it............

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/08/05/challenging_kerry_on_his_iraq_vote/


My advise to Kerry is to just stop talking about it, if he isn't actually going to change that position.

nt

either. Just aside from that Scott is a swing voter, that Kerry and the prowar dems claim to care about. In truth they only care about prowar people. and me and Scott don't qualify.

n/t

:kick:

We are winning the 2004 election battle narrowly so far, but losing the more important long term battle for the soul of the Democratic Party. Some of us here will never lose sight of the higher goal. So get used to it.

we can argue about the soul of Dem Party in Gitmo I guess. Hope they'll let me keep my clothes!

I think he is vulnerable on Iraq in the debate with Bush.

When Kerry defends his IWR vote it raises this question:

If Bush was right to confront Saddam Hussein when he did, why had Kerry and the other Dems been sitting around with their collective thumbs up their collective ass, waiting for Shrub to set the direction? Where were the Dems from September 11 to the summer of 2002, when Shrub came up with his brilliant insight that the key to the war on terrorism was to take out Saddam Hussein?? Eithe Kerry was asleep at the switch or he was wrong to vote for IWR -- take your choice.

If taking out Saddam Hussein was such a great idea, why didn't Kerry think of it?? Is he a follower or is he a leader?

This will hurt Kerry in November, and anyone who doesn't think so is living in lala land. He might survive but he is no inspiration to me. He is a disappointment.

For example, he was the best accomplished Democratic nominee regarding the environment, gay rights, and small business. He's also a well-respected bipartisan diplomat, working with people like Jesse Helms and John McCain to achieve greater goals, like Iran-Contra or the MIA POW search.

Really I think if it wasnt for Iraq, he wouldnt get the flack he does, its a shame really.

let me give it a try:

Its right to disarm a madman who would hurt his neighbors and the US.

But bush rushed to war before he had to!

if we had worked with our friends and the weapons inspectors, we would have found out there was no real threat.

The President should be able to protect the US. . .but he ought not to be an idiot about it!


PS why is "nuance" such a bad word now?

nt

That you were posting under another screenname (which shall remain nameless)?

I kinda have to laugh at that, now. Again.

DTH

I've made my peace with the idea of Kerry being the only choice I have to vote for. However, those of you who were pimping him all the way back before Gore dropped out and rehashed all the anti-Gore smears here on DU and then helped in the kneecap-Howard-Dean-effort all for the benefit of your boy can just live with it. You all knew the flaws that Kerry presented as a candidate and now you can deal with them becoming an issue.

Golly. I read Trippi's book from cover to cover. He didn't mention DU once. Said a few things about the candidate not being ready for the big event, though. Hm.

In my observations of the primary wars. There was like three to four mini wars in my opinion, Kerry supporters vs Dean supporters, Clark supporters vs Edwards supporters, Kucinich supporters vs everyone, Dean supporters vs Clark supporters. Supporters of each candiate at least once tried to "kneecap" the others. It wasnt an exlusive Kerry supporters on Dean thing either, it went all ways. I remember people calling for Kerry to drop out just because it appeared his campaign was dead yet when Kerry started winning, it was the DNC's fault for how they did the primaries. I also must add that most of us acted like assholes at least once in defense or in criticism of our or another candiate. I lost my cool quite a few times, I didnt appreciate my candiate being called an elf and "unelectable" and etc.

nothing that the handwringers are saying is new. All of these things are either about or directly related to concerns that people have had about Kerry since the very beginning. Surely you didn't think it was all going to just magically disappear?
I suspect most of us are willing to put aside our our displeasure with his positions (particularly on the whole Iraq War issue) but many won't be so willing. Those of you who were so adamant about Kerry being a stellar candidate must have had blinders on if you didn't see this coming.

People's Republic Bar. Saturday After Kerry's Elected. Book It,Baby! Book it!:toast: :party: :grouphug: :pals:

Trippi is no more god than Dean was all bad. If you want to quote his book as the main authority, then I could quote authors all day about Kerry. It is not classy to do that.

Yes, Will, DU tore Dean down from the time a certain candidate entered the race and everyone knows it. A few of us stuck it out, but it was not easy. It was known by all here.

Trippi is not God, Dean is not perfect. Neither is Kerry. Kerry may be more ready for the "big event" than Dean because he is so scripted. I hope to God Dean stays unscripted because our country needs someone who does not live and die by the damn polls.

I swear I hope there is a third party after the election, because I am being tired of being treated like I have no mind.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Perhaps you should take this up with Will via PM...

Alas, the trend continues.

My own character may be overly phlegmatic, but people need to show a bit of starch in contests....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

how you're doing. :hi:

Computer malfunction of an extreme sort had side-lined me for a while. These have been fixed now, at least so far as having an operational machine is concerned....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

Ms. Kahuna

People want Roger Clemons for a candidate well, we've got a Greg Maddux/Tom Glavine type. And by Election Night Bush will have been reduced to "No runs,No hits, but plenty of Errors".

the smartest pitcher in baseball, and a class act :D, and now a 300 game winner. Nice comparsion.

I swear to God, I've never seen a bunch of adults so afraid of their own shadows in my life. It'd be nice to see some folks here (metaphorically) grow a set, and quit whining and puling like frightened children!

:grr:

Heh its technically mine, sure I did a little bit of work for Gore a litlte ways back, and I personally prefer Kerry over Gore and dare I say Clinton.

I see the handwriting on the wall. If we do not like Kerry's IWR vote we may not be welcome here much longer.

I have been a "good" democrat since I could vote. This is the first time I remember being put down for disagreeing.

Am I seeing this wrong here? I feel it is happening. Like we must all be unquestioning. Do you realize how it feels to be told to agree or else? And yes, that is what it feels like.

When things like this are posted, it "puts down" a whole lot of people here. When you refer to "Kerry hand-wringing", you are saying we are wrong to disagree with the vote. I think disagreement is healthy, but I see it coming where it will not be acceptable here.

It is like yesterday, I was told I could be anti-war, that was not criticized. But several said don't be critical of Kerry's vote, that he really did not mean it. I don't know what to think anymore.

We donated to Kerry and we will vote for him.

I'm deathly allergic!

:hi::evilgrin::hi:

but I think the people that are questioning his vote on IWR and resulting issues from it are fine...it has brought more information to me that has clarified my stance a bit.

I think that it is obviously OK for anyone to vote for whomever they want, it is our most fundamental right as Americans. I do wish people would reconsider not voting for Kerry however. I just think this Presidential election is so important in so many ways and I really think slamming Bush in the popular vote would do a great deal to restore hope to the World and America. From that point on we can work hard at fine-tuning things. I wish the protest Kerry vote could be funneled into local and state level politics and education drives and such and not the Presidential vote.

Lastly I think that people are a bit harsh to those who have a differing opinion on Kerry, again I am new here, so maybe I just don't know the history between posters and such. But open debate is good in my mind, even if I cringe every time I hear that someone won't be voting for Kerry.
Kathy

With that said there are many more ( Like me ) who think Nows not the time. Bush needs to go this Nov and Kerry will do the Job a thousand times better. The GOP and Nader took advantage of the Democrats open exchange to the limit in 2000..While they look at it as a weakness that they did exploit to a very successful end, I see it as a strength of welcomeing every american not only the minorty voices but also the ones who may vote republican and not on the Democrats radar as possible votes and listening to the voices no matter how much we may disagree. Unlike the GOP who only listen to a select few. I love that about the Democrats BUT we need to stress party unity as well. I know its a fine balance that may teeter one way to ones dislike. But Party Unity is the thing that puts Democrats in office, puts them in charge of america and leads it much better than any loony nutcase rightwinger. Though i do welcome an open exchange of ideas I must stress that it should not get in the way of getting people to vote and showing that we are united thus welcomeing people who are undecided and showing that we know what we are doing and love america and will work our asses off for it to do well.
Scott

and he'll suffer the same political fate as LBJ.

:evilgrin:

..(not me, of course :) ) ... this place often looks like an ant bed someone just stepped on.

In fact I'm going to eat some ice cream now, which has fudge in it!

And now it's all death and dismemberment and doomsaying. We sit here and attack each other, and HELLO? Bush is the asshole. The wingers keep attacking Kerry and attacking Kerry, and instead of focusing on what's being thrown out there about him, could we please remember that BUSH IS THE GUY WHO'S RUNNING THIS COUNTRY INTO THE GROUND??

Kerry is the democratic candidate for president. The candidate who needs to defeat Bush. Whatever it is he might have done or said, he is still hands down upside down, anywhichwayyouchoose A BETTER CHOICE THAN BUSH.

There is no such thing as a perfect choice for president. Gore was perfect? Clinton? Dean's perfect? Kucinnich? Give me a break. We need to hang together, or as whatisface said, we're sure as hell gonna hang separately.

I was offered a Kerry/Edwards bumpersticker and refused it. Told the person I'm holding my nose and voting for K/E but I won't publicly support them. And I reminded them that the ABB Coalition expires right after the polls close on Nov. 2.

Things change daily in an election year and on the campaign trail. Emotions go up and down. It's not unlike a horse race except we have to wait sooooooooooooooooooooo long for the finish.

Of course we will vote for our candidate but does that mean we can't voice some misgivings we might have, at least until those misgivings have been straightened out? Shall we not come in here and discuss our concerns anymore?

I have good days when I feel really optimistic and days when life gets me down and I wonder if even our candidate will help me at all...though obviously he will be far better than Bush..

And if we can't come in and question a particular issue we have with our candidate or our party..then what's the point. Sometimes, coming here is just good therapy which then often leads to valid information. It's helpful. If I don't ask or complain, I won't get any feedback. My opinion. Peace

I had to defend right wing bullshit to my little brother. They're spreading sick lies about Kerry on the ground to kids practically, thats why I dont like it, its bad is with the right wing lies about him being a "taxer", "lied to get his medals", "betrayed his country" etc.

Actually I am gratified that those of us who have severe misgivings about Kerry are still allowed to voice our opinions here. So far.