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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 07:51 AM
Original message
Democratic Showdown On Saturday Could Get Ugly
Edited on Wed May-28-08 07:53 AM by IDemo
Houston Chronicle
Posted 5/28/2008 6:44 AM CDT

The meeting of the Democratic Party rules committee in Washington on Saturday, which is set to decide what to do about the delegations from Michigan and Florida, could get ugly in light of a memo released yesterday by party lawyers. From Yahoo News:

"Democratic National Committee rules require that the two states lose at least half of their convention delegates for holding elections too early, the party's legal experts wrote in a 38-page memo.

The memo was sent late Tuesday to the 30 members of the party's Rules and Bylaws Committee, which plans to meet Saturday at a Washington hotel. The committee is considering ways to include the two important general election battlegrounds at the nominating convention in August, and the staff analysis says seating half the delegates is "as far as it legally can go."

This is sure to anger the Clinton supporters who want the delegations seated according to the results of the primaries in both states, and have planned protests outside the hotel where the meeting is to be held. They have even been mailing Florida oranges and pairs of shoes to committee members to get their attention. OK, oranges I get, somebody explain the symbolism of the shoes.

http://tiny.cc/uzKj1
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NC_Nurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
1. Tough shit, them's the rules.
:nopity:
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. yep - sure wouldn't want to listen to voters . . .
big mistake - screw the voters - we got us rules to follow
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. No campaigning= Name recognition contest.
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. you have got to be kidding
I live in Florida and believe-it-or-not we do have cable and a 24-hour news cycle just like the civilized parts of the country.

To claim a lack of name recognition is simply staggering.

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NC_Nurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. When people meet Obama, they like him. Hillary, not so much.
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. well - how many people in reality get a chance to spend enough time
with either candidate to form those opinions.

And for those that do, how many form truly valid opinions - that is, not a first-reaction.

And, this is not a popularity contest. We need a leader - not a likeable want-to-have-a-beer-with president. Been there - done that.

and please remember - I am not for either. I believe the best candidate got away. I am just ready for a successful president.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #14
50. you will never know...
what the results would have been, had the candidates campaigned. It seems to me that "campaigning" is how one goes about garnering votes, unless one is the wife of a former President and just runs her campaign through the media.
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #50
55. of course not. And if the primary in any other state was shifted a day could that not
have an impact.

The point is - 1.7M voted out of 4.1 registered D's. Pretty good turnout for a primary. So I think a representative sample has been achieved.

and btw - I am not a supporter of either. My candidate is watching from the sideline. I am just trying to bring a bit of objectivity to this forum.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #55
69. If the Primary in any other state..
was shifted a day, the candidates would have already been campaigning there. To some it apparently makes no difference if a candidate campaigns or not. Since that is the case we can just pick our candidate today for 2012. Or let's let Florida and Michigan choose for us. Who gives a shit what the other 48 states think?
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. that is so ridiculous
no one is suggesting anything like that. Why the exaggeration? What is the purpose of that?
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. Exaggeration?
I just saw the movie "Recount". I am tired of Florida fucking with the Democratic Party, and elections. I know that if the delegations are seated as is, that Senator Obama still wins. But if rules don't matter, than rules don't matter. I can just see the Florida legislature giving each other high fives for successfully screwing with the process again. And getting away with it.
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #73
82. amazing that you claim to be a democrat and have no problem
with voters losing their votes.

Simply amazing.

I guess it is because - like other obama supporters - winning is everything. Public flogging of the opposition supporters would be welcome.

Of course rules matter. But - the sanctions imposed by the rules take away the vote from party members who did nothing wrong. Punish the state leaders.

And I also saw the movie recount. If you paid attention, half the problems came in from others brought in to the state to screw it up. Did you catch that part?
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #82
84. Voters did not 'lose' their votes...
their votes for selecting a Democratic nominee were never there to lose. And everyone knew it. Long before the day of their primary. Counties not conducting even machine recounts, Katherine Harris, purging voter roles, the Florida State Legislature etc., were not anything 'brought in'. Funny that you accuse me of believing that 'winning is everything'. Senator Obama wins regardless of how the Florida delegates are seated. "Claim to be a Democrat"? Are you suggesting that those who have a problem with rogue states deliberately fucking with the process that they themselves voted for, are not "Democrats"? Typical.
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #84
85. no I am not claiming that at all
just that a blanket blame on Florida is so ridiculous - as though no one from outside Florida contributed to the debacle.

your leap to un-reason is so "typical" (as you would claim)
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #85
103. a blanket blame on Florida is accurate..
who else do you blame? You seem to think that the "Democratic National Party" has no right to set rules as to how the "Democratic Party" chooses it's nominee. That the Florida State Democratic Party has no obligation to abide by the rules it agreed to. The state of Florida obviously runs it's elections anyway it sees fit. But choosing how the Democratic Nominating Process is done is not something the state of Florida gets to decide. What I find "typical" is your accusation that those that disagree with you are not "Democrats".
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #103
104. yes - and I hold by that. One of the foundations of this party is
equal rights when it comes to voting. Sorry you do not subscribe to that tenet. There is another party that believes similarly, btw. They also take great glee in stripping voting rights.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #104
109. so votes count..when they don't count..
Edited on Thu May-29-08 01:04 PM by stillcool47
and don't count..when they count. Got it! Florida rules?

Florida Dems defy Dean on primary date
By Sam Youngman
Posted: 06/12/07 07:58 PM
Howard Dean, chairman of the Democratic National Committee (DNC), is trapped in a high-stakes game of chicken with party leaders in Florida.

The warning comes amid alarm over a decision Sunday by state Democratic leaders to embrace Jan. 29 as the primary date. They are defying DNC headquarters and daring it to follow through on its threat to disqualify electors selected in the primary and punish candidates who campaign there.

But the DNC is not backing down. The committee bought time with a statement late yesterday saying, “The DNC will enforce the rules as passed by its 447 members in Aug. 2006. Until the Florida State Democratic Party formally submits its plan and we’ve had the opportunity to review that submission, we will not speculate further.”

Dean does not, in any case, have the power to waive party rules, a DNC spokeswoman said.
The entire committee would have to vote again to do that.

------------------
Carol Fowler, chairwoman of the South Carolina Democratic Party, said she won’t move that state’s primary, scheduled for Feb. 2, unless the national committee allows her. “I’m going to do what the DNC tells me to,” Fowler said. “I’m not willing to violate the rules. The penalties are too stiff.”


http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/florida-dems-defy-dean-on-primary-date-2007-06-12.html


Posted: August 27, 2007, 6:05 PM ET
DNC Moves to Stop Primary Frontloading
The Democratic National Committee moved over the weekend to penalize Florida for moving up its primary date to Jan. 29 -- a violation of DNC rules that prohibit states from holding nominating polls before Feb. 5. The committee said the Sunshine State would be stripped of its delegation at the party's National Convention in 2008 if the state does not reschedule its primary in the next 30 days.

As the nation's fourth-most-populous state, Florida has 210 delegates and has played a major role in recent presidential elections. Florida's decision to advance its primary follows the increasing trend of states pushing up their contests in order to gain relevance in the election.
"Rules are rules. California abided by them, and Florida should, as well. To ignore them would open the door to chaos," said Garry Shays, a DNC member from California. California -- with its 441 delegates -- moved its primary to Feb. 5, along with more than a dozen other states.
-----------------------------------------

The DNC gave Florida the option of holding a Jan. 29 contest but with nonbinding results, and the delegates would be awarded at a later official date.


Florida Democratic Committee Chairwoman Karen Thurman said this option would be expensive -- as much as $8 million -- and potentially undoable. Another option would be to challenge the ruling in court.

"We do represent, standing here, a lot of Democrats in the state of Florida -- over 4 million," Thurman said, according to the New York Times. "This is emotional for Florida. And it should be."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/politics/july-dec07/florida_08-27.html




Lawmakers in US state Michigan approve moving presidential primary to January despite rules
The Associated Press
Published: August 30, 2007


Florida Democrats decided to move their state's primary to Jan. 29. The national party has said it will strip Florida of its presidential convention delegates unless it decides within the next few weeks to move the vote to a later date.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/08/31/america/NA-POL-US-Primary-Scramble.php?WT.mc_id=rssap_america



Published: Monday, September 24, 2007
Florida defies Dems, moves up primary
Associated Press
PEMBROKE PINES, Fla. — The Florida Democratic Party is sticking to its primary date — and it printed bumper stickers to prove it.
State party leaders formally announced Sunday their plans to move ahead with a Jan. 29 primary, despite the national leadership's threatened sanctions.
The Democratic National Committee has said it will strip the Sunshine State of its 210 nominating convention delegates if it doesn't abide by the party-set calendar, which forbids most states from holding primary contests before Feb. 5.
The exceptions are Iowa on Jan. 14, Nevada on Jan. 19, New Hampshire on Jan. 22 and South Carolina on Jan. 29.
http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20070924/NEWS02/709240045/-1/



Democrats vow to skip defiant states
Six candidates agree not to campaign in those that break with the party's calendar.
By Mark Z. Barabak, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
September 2, 2007
The muddled 2008 presidential nomination calendar gained some clarity Saturday -- at least on the Democratic side -- as the party's major candidates agreed not to campaign in any state that defies party rules by voting earlier than allowed.

Their collective action was a blow to Florida and Michigan, two states likely to be important in the general election, which sought to enhance their clout in the nominating process as well.
Front-runner Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York followed Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois and former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina in pledging to abide by the calendar set by the
Democratic National Committee last summer.
The rules allow four states -- Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina -- to vote in January.
The four "need to be first because in these states ideas count, not just money," Edwards said in a written statement. "This tried-and-true nominating system is the only way for voters to judge the field based on the quality of the candidate, not the depth of their war chest."

Hours later, after Obama took the pledge, Clinton's campaign chief issued a statement citing the four states' "unique and special role in the nominating process" and said that the New York senator, too, would "adhere to the DNC-approved calendar."

Three candidates running farther back in the pack -- New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson and Sens. Christopher J. Dodd of Connecticut and Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware -- said Friday they would honor the pledge, shortly after the challenge was issued in a letter co-signed by Democratic leaders in the four early states.
--
Florida, the state that proved pivotal in the 2000 presidential election, is again a source of much upheaval. Ignoring the rule that put January off-limits, legislators moved the state's primary up to Jan.


The decision by the major Democratic candidates to campaign only in approved early states renders voting in the rogue states essentially non-binding beauty contests.

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_6804685?source=rss



December 1, 2007,
11:42 am
Democrats Strip Michigan of Delegates
By The New York Times

In a widely expected move, the Democratic National Committee voted this morning to strip Michigan of all its 156 delegates to the national nominating convention next year. The state is the party’s rules by holding its primary on Jan. 15. Only Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada are allowed to hold contests prior to Feb. 5.
The party imposed a similar penalty on Florida in August for scheduling a Jan. 29 primary.
The Democratic candidates have already pledged not to campaign in the state, and Senators Barack Obama and Joseph R. Biden Jr., as well as John Edwards and Gov. Bill Richardson, asked to have their names removed from the state ballot.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/01/democrats-strip-michigan-delegates/



Editorial: Follow DNC rules on seating delegates
February 25, 2008
By Editorial Board

On September 1, the campaigns of Clinton and Senator Barack Obama (D-Ill.) issued press releases stating that they had signed pledges affirming the DNC’s decision to approve certain representative states and sanction others for moving their nominating contests earlier. But now that the race is close, Clinton — whose top advisor Harold Ickes voted as a member of the DNC to strip Florida and Michigan of their delegates — is pushing for the delegates to be seated.
Her argument is that not doing so disenfranchises the 1.7 million Florida Democrats who voted and that her pledge promised only that she wouldn’t campaign in the states, not that she wouldn’t try to seat the delegates. However, the results of the contests in Florida and Michigan are not necessarily representative of the voters’ preferences in those states. Given that most of the candidates removed their names from the
Michigan ballot, and that many voters stayed home from the vote in Florida with the understanding that their contest would not affect the final delegate count, the delegate totals that the candidates accumulated in these states may not accurately reflect the will of the voters. Had there been no restrictions in Michigan and Florida, the turnout, and thus the results, may have been different.

The Four State Pledge all candidates signed on Aug. 28 stated, “Whereas, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee will strip states of 100% of their delegates and super delegates to the DNC National Convention if they violate the nomination calendar...


Therefore, I ____________, Democratic Candidate for President, in honor and in accordance with DNC rules ...pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any election contest occurring in any state not already authorized by the DNC to take place in the DNC approved pre-window.”
When the candidates pledged to campaign only in approved states, they were also agreeing to the terms listed above, which explicitly mentioned stripping noncompliant states of their entire delegation.


House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) recently said that the Florida and Michigan delegates should not be seated if they would decide the nomination. Other compromise proposals include holding new nominating contests in these states, but such contests would be expensive and cumbersome. The irony is that had Florida and Michigan not moved up their primaries, they would have voted in February and March, when they would have been even more important than in earlier months in determining the Democratic nominee — and would not have created an enormous controversy that has the potential to divide the party.
http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2008/2/25/editorialFollowDncRulesOnSeatingDelegates

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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #70
75. That is exactly the point that you are trying to argue.
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #75
81. I am arguing that we should just go ahead and pick our 2012
candidate now and that Michigan and Florida can do the chosing?

That is what I am arguing? Wolsh - you continue to amaze me.

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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #81
87. Its the slippery slope that you're going down by saying that campaigning doesn't matter
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #87
89. I am just trying to bring a 50-state solution
I know there are inequities. There are faults in other states as well. But . . . in the end, we need to field the best candidate. (and my choice is not running)

I live in Florida. 1.7 million Dems voted - out of 4.1 registered D voters. Those results - I believe - offer a legitimate sample by which the Florida choices have been voiced. I know the obama-supporters do not agree - because their candidate received few votes. And I know hillary supporters agree - because their candidate received the most votes.

But in the end - what action leaves us with the best chance in the GE. The primary is a battle - the GE is the war. Obama will get the nomination. So why not bring some unity and seat the delegates. This will bring some D votes back to the party. I just cannot understand why so many fail to look toward victory in November. Defeating hillary is the be-all and end-all to so many at this forum.
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gal Donating Member (534 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #89
92. Counting Florida will not bring a 50-state solution..
You will have 48 other states ticked off! Do we want to lose 2 or 48?
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #92
99. you know - that is so hard for me to understand
I really don't care why Iowa likes their bizarre caucuses. I don't care when they vote in their primary. I do not care how many vote - or by what method.

Why should anyone outside Florida care about how or why Florida conducts its primary?

I know the lame argument about how it impacts candidates. But - they just need to make their choices - and decide how best to get their word out.
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gal Donating Member (534 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #99
113. I don't care about Iowa either...I'm not from there nor argueing for them.
I am from Ohio and my voice is just as important as yours and I'm sure millions of others feel the same way in every other state. Who says we didn't want to go ahead of Iowa, who says Texas didn't want to jump. The point is we didn't. If they make special exceptions for you or people in Florida and Michigan what does it say to the rest of us? I personally think the other states not involved with this have very good reason to be ticked off that we're just suppose to accept what happened. I don't think so.

I'm sorry but our voices count and deserve respect to.
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #113
114. I have no problem with what you are saying
but please realize that I have no voice in this. The state leaders and the DNC are both so busy grabbing power, they are forgetting completely about the party members.

I don't care when I vote. I don't care when you vote. I do care that both of us get a chance to vote. I do not want to take away your voice - nor do I want mine taken away. I am not asking for anything special. I know of no other Florida voters that are asking for anything special.

and please - no condescending comments about how I voted for my representatives - so I need to live with them. My district representatives happen to be repubs. So I certainly did not vote for them. In addition, I doubt anybody voting for the Dems would have anticipated such a power-grab during this election cycle.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #8
32. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
musicblind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #32
59. Didn't he just say that he's not supporting Clinton
and that his candidate is watching from the sidelines?
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musicblind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. He just said he does not support Clinton
and that his candidate is now on the sidelines. I think he is just trying to bring some balanced perspective to DU.
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #32
72. well - ignoring your juvenile profanity - but my candidate is not even running
sorry to disappoint you - but I am not a Hillary supporter - so sorry your insults miss their mark.

I have also spoken to a lot of Florida D's - and they are upset with the DNC and the state leaders that our votes do not count.

Your suggestion that Obama has no name recognition is just astounding. I doubt even you believe it.
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GihrenZabi Donating Member (426 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #8
34. No, you misunderstood
If you don't campaign, people vote based on a name.

If you want to argue that the name "Clinton" isn't better known to the general populace, most of whom aren't political junkies like we are, than the name "Obama" then I have some land in Florida to sell you.

Thus, if the candidates didn't campaign, the MI and FL votes are name recognition contests, not actually primaries, which is why they are both invalid.

Democracy depends upon the education of the citizenry - if the citizens never had a chance to meet BOTH the candidates and decide their votes based upon that information, how can one honestly say that democratic processes even took place?

In MI's case, where Obama followed the rules and Hillary did not, how can you even call that an election when there wasn't a proper choice on the ballot?

Hillary supporters are insane at this point, thinking that FL and MI are in any way valid. The idea of seating the delegations as voted is beyond ignorant...we need a new word to describe this sort of illogical, self-destructive zealotry...
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GihrenZabi Donating Member (426 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #8
39. Double post sry n/t
Edited on Wed May-28-08 09:12 AM by GihrenZabi
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. If the voters ignore the rules, the rules ignore the voters
Stupid is as stupid does.
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. sounds bites worthy of republican sloganeer. . . . .
Edited on Wed May-28-08 08:29 AM by DrDan
out of touch with fairness, ethics, equality - got the rules - that's enough.

Forget that they violate the very foundations of the party - as clearly stated in the charter. Got the rules. Got to follow the rules. Hey you Fl and Michigan voters - back of the bus - get on back there, you rule-breakers.
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greguganus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. Yeah, what the hell are rules good for? Who needs em? n/t
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. of course we need them
but - lets think through them a bit.

When the state leaders violate them, do we punish the voters? Why not punish the leaders. How about withholding funding. How about denying them nat'l roles. How about focussing the "punishment" on those that break the rules.

The voters are being punished for actions they are not responsible for. It is nuts - and the DNC should have realized that.

In addition - the charter CLEARLY states all party members get an equal voice in candidate selection. How can the DNC violate the charter of the party.

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sybylla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #19
43. Yep, cuz without rules we'd just be libertarians.
Seems to me rules and laws are all about fairness, ethics and equality. Without them, what would we have? Are you some kind of anarchist? I mean, we might as well not even have a government then.

I guess it just depends on which side of the rules you're on - a rule breaker always blames the rules and the rule makers.
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #43
46. well perhaps - but I did not break any rules to fall into second-class
citizen status. Perhaps the state leaders did, but the voters, to include myself, broke no rules.

Sorry that fact escapes you.
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SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #46
49. are you even from florda?
you are showing a level of obtuseness even 12 years in the florida school system cant produce
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #49
53. yes I am - and I can even spell it correctly
I have lived here for over 25 years.

And why do you feel the need to be so rude? I do not understand that requirement to post in this forum.

As I said - I did not break any rules. You see, the state leades did perhaps. But I just showed up and voted. So why would the DNC decide my vote is not to be heard? Does that make any sense to you?
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SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #53
56. it makes no sense to me
that you believe that the dnc rules should be ignored
i spell fine btw and ive been here since 1959
im the rarest of floridians a native
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #56
61. well - you don't spell so well - and you don't read so well either
I don't have a problem with the rule - I have a problem with the sanction. It punishes voters who are doing nothing wrong. Sorry that is hard for you to figure out . . . I don't know how to say it any simpler. Punish those that break the rules - not unlike all the other rules you probably obey. Withhold their party funding. Deny nat'l roles. But to punish the voters is insane. Even Florida voters - or florda voters (if that makes more sense).
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gal Donating Member (534 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #19
95. Fairness is treating all 50 states the same.
You seem content to screw the people in the other 48 states. The United States of America is not made up of people that only live in Florida and Michigan. Don't like the rules then change them in the proper place now where you feel like throwing a tantrum.

Personally I'm sick of the whining bullshit (not from you everyplace on this forum and MSM though)This is NOT just about Florida & Michigan its about ALL 50 states and this election. If you don't like the results then move on.
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hokies4ever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #5
47. Same with the Republican Party
Listen to the voters, just give each pledged delegate a half vote.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
68. Sorry but the State Dems screwed the voters over AFTER the DNC had told them the consequences..
..so yeah, it's the DNC's fault...:eyes:
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. yes they did - as did the DNC
the power-grabbing of both the DNC and the state leaders screwed the voters of Florida.

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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #71
86. Nope. The DNC said don't move it or you'll lose. They moved it anyway and the DNC followed through..
...so the DNC is at fault? In what backward-ass universe?
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #86
88. well - in an attempt to keep this objective -
my view is that the sanctions were wrong. They penalized voters - and not those who's actions actually caused the rule-breaking.

Also - to take away a vote goes against the Democratic charter - which clearly states that all party members get an equal voice in candidate selection. The sanction clearly violates that basic cornerstone.

So - penalize the state leaders. Take away their funding. Deny nat'l roles. But do not take away the voice of the party voter.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #88
91. The voters should have made that abundantly clear to the state leaders...they apparently didn't...
...The end result is that the voters get penalized because their STATE parties caused the sanctions to be incurred. The fight is with the STATE parties, NOT the DNC...
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #91
97. but . . . the sanctions come from the DNC
of all people - the DNC should know the charter of the party. They obviously do not care whether they follow the charter or not.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #97
102. And the sanctions were put in place why? Because the STATE PARTY violated the rules.
End of story.
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fed_up_mother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #88
107. Party members should get equal votes? Remember "super" delegates?
Edited on Thu May-29-08 12:22 PM by fed_up_mother
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. yes I do - and I think they make us look elitist
but that said - I am not claiming that the individual voters have equal voice with the SDs, only that voters have equal rights. That means their voices are not silenced.
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Hamlette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #5
90. punish the 48 that followed the rules to appease the few who jumped the line?
You two states might be pissed, but you've just begun to see the blind anger you are unleashing from the rest of us.

We wanted to do what you did, be the hot shots, pick the prez, but we "knew" if we did, none of our votes would count. So we played by the rules.

Now you want us, the ones who followed the rules, to shut up and listen to you and count your votes anyway? To treat this like some civil rights issue? Gag me with a stick. This is a vote in your PARTY. It's not a vote in an election. You have so much disrespect for your party and the process you want us all to kiss your butts.

Well damn Florida and Michigan. I've had about as much of you as I can take.

You KNEW your votes would not count when you broke the rules then your candidate didn't win so you want a do over. We allow you a do over but YOUR PARTY says no.

So now you want the rest of us to let you cut in line. FU

I was in favor of a compromise until the last couple of weeks.

No more.

I'm sick and tired of my country being held captive by the drama that is Florida. Whether it is arrogance or mere stupidity. I've had enough.
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gal Donating Member (534 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #90
96. +10
Good for you! I feel exactly the same and sick of hearing the whining and bullshit.
You would think Florida and Michigan are the only 2 in America.
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #90
106. I wish I could rec this.
Florida needs to just float away already. How many failed elections of theirs are we going to have to suffer through?
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Mike L Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #1
41. COUNT EVERY VOTE!!!! Don't disinfranchise half of Democratic voters in two states. em
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sybylla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #41
45. Got my vote
for supremely ignorant post.

A primary is not an election. You can't be disenfranchised from a primary as you have no legal right to participate. The Supreme Court has long said that political parties have a right to establish their ticket - to choose their own candidates by whatever means they choose. Remember, parties used to choose their candidates in smoke filled rooms. Thankfully, we don't do that any more. States are still free to choose from a variety of methods from caucus to primary+caucus to closed primary to open primary. The Democratic Party has established a minimum set of rules for allowing the general public to participate in the selection process.

Back in the early 80's when the Supreme Court said the DNC could disallow my state's open primary from counting based on the way it was conducted, my state party didn't plop down on it's diaper and have a tantrum. We came up with a way to select our candidates for the General Election ballot that conformed to the DNC rules. That meant we didn't vote that year, we had a caucus instead. Since then, my state party has negotiated a plan that allows for us to continue our open primary in a modified way.

Imagine what role Florida and Michigan could have had if their party leaders had acted like adults.
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RichardRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #45
63. I bow in your direction!
I've tried to point that out enough times that I've given up, but I absolutely agree with you. People who talk about 'disenfranchisement' in the candidate selection process are arguing from a baseless perspective.
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sybylla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. I'm getting tired of it myself
It's like playing wack-a-mole and it's bordering on the ridiculous.
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Hamlette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #64
101. the worst part is, it is being fueled by a candidate
a "party loyalist" who should tell FL and MI they blew it.

No, that's not the worst. The worst thing is FL and MI are buying into the BS from that candidate who is only championing their "cause" because SHE NEEDS THEIR RIGGED VOTES.

If Clinton didn't need FL and MI to claim "victory" in some half assed way, she'd dump them like she did FL in 2000 and OH in 2004. And those two incidents really were a violation of rights because it was a vote in an election, not a vote for party nominee.

I'm getting more angry at FL and to a lesser extent, MI by the day. (Prolly because I've seen fewer ppl from MI posting stupid civil rights BS here.)

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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #45
79. Imagine what role Florida and Michigan could have had if their party leaders had acted like adults."
EXACTLY!!!

The political irony of all political ironies this year!

:shrug:
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Mike L Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #79
112. Right. Hillary would have won without the need for all this. em
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hokies4ever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #41
48. I bet you have MI and FL state flags in your front yard, even though you live in SC
:rofl:
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
2. I'll be there!
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Condem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Looking forward to your reports, slinkerwink.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Obama has wisely requested that there be no "counter protest", so I hope whatever
contingent we have there is simply there to quietly observe. Its already expected in MSM and print that Clinton supporters will raise a ruckus. TV cameras and reporters will be out in force. I hope they show themselves for truly what they are.. and any Obama supporters there remain under the radar. Its the best way, I think, to let these "bitter supporters" show their true colors and let America see exactly what they're up to.

:hi:
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DemVet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
16. I'll be there...
...raising hell in the name of OBAMA.
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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Wait- isn't this guy a Hillary supporter? So he's advocating a dirty trick here???
WTF???
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #21
29. Yes
:(
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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. Just checked- this guy is a clear Hillary supporter advocating a dirty trick against Obama
BAN

How can you be allowed to brag about shit like this on DU?

Disgusting.
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DemVet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. I plan to protest that FL and MI are seated...
...that is all. I really don't think that bodes well for Obama. That's all I'm saying.

You advocating that voters be disenfranchised could possibly be considered a FEDERAL crime.

Congress does have oversite over the procedures of a NATIONAL political party, contrary to popular belief.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #24
31. that's not true about it being a federal crime.
In a PRIMARY, you do not have the constitutional right to vote because it is organized by private parties. The right to vote only exists in the general election.
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DemVet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. Read what you just wrote.
"you do not have the constitutional right to vote "

It is for NATIONAL office and the FEDERAL government does have official oversite.
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SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #33
52. this one also
is too obtuse to actually be a floridian
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #24
38. There's no constitutional right to voting in the Primaries
Please get that through your thick skull.
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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #24
40. Ok, congrats. That's the new "dumbest thing I've ever read on DU."
Wow. You outdid yourself on this one. Please, just go away.
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #40
93. He's clearly a trollio. Best to ignore.
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #24
62. wow, two wrong statements in one post
1. It's not a crime to "advocate disenfranchisement", even if that WERE what we are doing. If it were a crime it would be unconstitutional.

2. The DNC is a PRIVATE organization, with NO GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT (not "oversite").

Also, there is no federal right to vote in a primary (there is no federal right to vote AT ALL (but you can't discriminate if you DO let people vote)).
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #16
35. Thanks for confirming your total lack of scruples and participation in dirty tricks
Edited on Wed May-28-08 09:07 AM by Catherina

IT'S NO SURPRISE

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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #16
57. Good. Now we'll know that any obnoxious "pro Obama" demonstrators
Are actually Hillarhoids trying to make him look bad. :hi:
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. Did you Get a Ticket?
I heard they were sold out. I'm glad you are gonna be there.
Watch out for Provocateurs masquerading as Obama supporters.
Believe me, I've seen it too many times since the late 60s.





Keep it calm and collected and Thank you.
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DemVet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. "Watch out for Provocateurs masquerading as Obama supporters."
Hey, I resemble that remark!
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #18
23.  that is no surprise ..... You have revealed your political leanings many times
This does not shock any of us that you take up right wing tactics.




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DemVet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. How could...
...protesting for MI and FL delegates be seated considered RW tactics? They can't.

However, disenfranchising a valid, state-sanctioned primary election for a national official is in violation of FEDERAL law.
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gal Donating Member (534 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #26
100. If it violates a FEDERAL law I'm sure you'll win in court then huh?
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. See post #16.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
17. Be Safe
Hillary's hardcore are a very nast bunch.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
28. I'm glad you got in!!!! Keep us updated!
:hug:
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marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
4. Shouldn't it be "Democratic Showdown on Saturday Could get UGLIER"?
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Max_powers94 Donating Member (715 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #4
44. It can if hillary people show their asses
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #44
76. Or their faces...
but who could tell?

:hide:

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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
10. Let's all vow to thank Bill and Hill for NOT knowing how to be "Team Players?" 8 fucking years ...
wasn't ENOUGH for the Clintons to rule the Executive Branch. :nuke:
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AZSlacker Donating Member (258 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
13. On the news today they mentioned that the delegations can be given 100% seating by the credentials
committee at the convention. I expect that the Rules committee will vote to seat the delegations at 50%, and that Clinton will announce on the same day that they don't like that finding and they are going to try to get full seating at the convention. It is going to be a long summer.

:grr: :grr: :grr:
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #13
58. At some point, Hillary and her minions simply need to be put on ignore.
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #13
94. Than call all be seated, but their vote will only count for 50% of it's value.
That's the caveat.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
15. If this, Gods forbid, breaks out into violence or mischief
It will be the most embarrassing day for the our party in a long time, and that's saying a lot.
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workinclasszero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
30. Too damn bad
Hillary agreed to this beforehand. Now she proves herself to be a shameless liar.

Those states broke party rules and deserve the penalty.
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GoldieAZ49 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
36. The shoes: they will walk away from the party
just a guess
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
37. It will only get ugly if the Hillarians make it that way
hopefully the Obamans will just ignore them as they have been lately.
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SoonerPride Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #37
42. If the pots and pans crowd gets a real ruckus going, it will be a sad day for our party.
Edited on Wed May-28-08 09:28 AM by SoonerPride
I expect it to fizzle like the rest of her campaign.
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book_worm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
51. Hillary's whole strategy at this point is to undermine Obama so he loses in November and then she
runs again in 2012.
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GoesTo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
54. Go Hill! Scorch that Earth!
Out of control demonstrations sure helped the party in 1968.

Do anything that could possibly help Hillary, no matter how much it hurts the party's prospects.

Remember what is important. Only Hillary. Only Our Girl!

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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
65. On a map, Michagan looks just like a boot:
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
66. Double post
Edited on Wed May-28-08 02:38 PM by rucky
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DeschutesRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
67. Whenever someone doesn't get what they want
they can and sometimes do make ugly sounds.

Result is the same. If no one likes the result, then change the rules for next time around. Not in mid game. That is how it will go down.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
74. They CAN'T split the pledged delegates down the middle? That disenfranchises the voters.
Edited on Wed May-28-08 09:51 PM by rocknation
Split pledged delegates down the middle with full voting power, and ban the superdelegates because they're the ones the voters should be mad at.
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
77. They are acting like bratty children and Obama and his supporters are acting with class.
Typical
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GoldieAZ49 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. now that is FUNNY
acting with class :rofl:

at least you got the 'acting' right
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #78
98. yeah he's a low class elite christian crypto-muslim
GoldieAZ49 it will be a pleasure to ignore you! again.
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #98
111. Don't argue with Ignored.
It's a waste of time.
(and why do my Ignoreds continue to write me? I always say that I'm putting them on Ignore - do they think I'm kidding?)
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HooptieWagon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
80. Could get ugly?
With the H44 and HCForum crowd showing up, rest assured there'll be no shortage of ugly.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #80
83. Those people are Republicans.
And it won't get ugly. The Republican "chaos project" or whatever the current term is will protest outside, and the rest will be worked out inside in a logical manner.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
105. Operation Chaos
Many will be inbred freepers shuffled around by a few GOP operatives.




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Bensthename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
110. Proof here Clinton doesnt care about Sat outcome..
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