Has Dean received a free pass on the size of Vermont?

Since everyone is campaigning in New Hampshire other candidates are not in a position to bash Vermont. Among all the states Vermont (pop. 600,000, small area and no cities) may be most like a county and least like a state.

Dean saves only $400,000 when he cuts the state's reccommended nuclear preparedness budget.


"But even after Ready's report recommended the state's nuclear preparedness spending triple from $400,000 to $1.2 million, Dean budgeted only half the increase."

http://tinyurl.com/2tgwy

:eyes:



:hippie:

Little Rock itself has over 200,000 residents.

so it was 2,000,000 to Dean's 600,000, which is statistically a similar population.

Arkansas: 2,673,400
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/BasicFactsTable?_lang=en&_vt_name=DEC_1990_STF1_DP1&_geo_id=04000US05

Vermont: 562,758
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/BasicFactsTable?_lang=en&_vt_name=DEC_1990_STF1_DP1&_geo_id=04000US50

I don't know why you are fudging the ratio, but let's look at it for a sec.

562,758 X 2 = 1,125,516 ------hmmmm...I would say you are skewing your figures.


562,758 x 4.5 = 2,532,411 with almost 150,000 remainder

So, it is safe to say that, according to the 1990 census, Vermont's population was less than a quarter Arkansas.

How can you argue against hard figures? Enough of your overzealous bombast already.

And there's a war now.

... and turned out to be a fallacy then, too.


:hippie:

Give it a rest, why dontcha?

debt, poor education,crappy economy, etc. I don't think there is really a comparison to be made.

It seems to me the same argument as "no foreign policy experience."

Whoopdedoo. Having a brain is an important thing, and look what the current resident has done for foreign relations? For the economy? For education? For employment?

Howard brings 3.

But that's just us Democrats, thinking with our hearts and checking our heads at the door again.

and i dont think SCOTUS would dubb dean the king of the us like they did for w

that we should have presidents who are from bigger states? That would ignore half the states. I mean Reagan came from california...if you're advocating that people from bigger states are more worthy then....

edit-spelling

state to govern is standing on very shaky ground. The only reason he hasn't been challenged on the smallness of hisVermont accomplishments is because it would annoy N.H.. That will not stop the GOP.

your regionalism is showing - not to mention your desperation.

Oh - and by the way - this drivel has been covered here, ad nauseaum.

The other candidates have not touched not on it and the media barely have.

they lack your obvious regional bias and prejudice.

if that's the case. I doubt very much if you're from New England. And furthermore - I doubt very much if the GOP should be chosing the Democratic candidate.

qualifications. It's nothing personal against Vermont. To win the election I think the Democrats should pick the candidate who can be mosteffective and best withstand GOP attacks,

saying, is that the GOP should determine our candidate for us?

Mobilizing the base while turning off the center could result in losing to an unpopular president or a lower office rout to a popular president.

I was born and raised in Kansas and I can honestly say that even though the people are generally good people the state is not "impressive" in most ways. Size-wise it isn't that small but the population is only iirc 2.68 million.

Truely Missouri isn't that "impressive" either but one of the better Presidents of the 20th century came from there.

:wtf:

being small time

Huh? :wtf: again? What does this have to do with $400K?

amounts. If you read the article, you'll see that Vermont has one full-time employee on its emergency preparedness team.

Dean has not been put on the spot for having only county size governing experience.

Do you think you're the first person who's ever noticed that he's from VT? Trust me, Kerry, Clark, et all know. BTW, for the record, who DO you support in the primaries?

I support Clark, as I stated further down.

it's an utterly ABSURD argument!

when considering someone for another job.

A state is a state, and a governor is a governor---- and GOOD governors are rare, successful ones even more rare. Don't you think if ANY candidate considered this to be an issue, they would NOT have raised it this late in the game?

Is that clear?

:eyes:

governing California as governing Vermont. That realism is comforting.

what you're talking about. NH isn't all that fond of VT. VT is full of pinko hippie socialists, unlike our own Republican rednecks.

I'm betting you're from someplace like Georgia.

another small state that shares most of its border, even if the average voter is more liberal in Vermont.

when your state has less people than most metropolises

DID DEAN SET THE BORDERS FOR VT? Why would he need to be excused for the size? D'oh!

the point is we should put Dean's much-vaunted governance in perspective. Vermont is the size of a medium-American city, and is 98% white.

.... among other things. A state is a state, and being the governor of one is being the governor of one.

And you don't have to make senators from large states president because they come from large states, either, or Congressmen from large states, or former ambassadors from large states, or....


What IS your point?

When people around the country focus on how few people are affected they will not be so impressed. Vermont may be the least impressive possible state to base a record of accomplishment on.

A state is a state, and a successful governor is a successful governor.

Got anything else. BTW, who is your candidate?

that's bs. As from the 98 percent white that fact doesn't seem to deter people from his campaign who are minorities. I mean for example he got the endoresemnt of cumming, jesse jackson jr, and etc

Everything starts out small. If Dean demonstrated that he could bring health care and blance a budget in a small state then that just goes to show that he's ready for the big show. I mean a singer doesn't automatically become a superstar. They start small.

it's a big leap for anybody no matter what your previous position was. I thought the U.S.A was a country where anybody was capable of becoming president. Are you applying a litmus test of who can and can't?

disappointed that his accomplishments are based on what some people think of as a county-size population rather than a state.

:eyes:

Vermont compared to any other state? Maybe there is a less impressive state to govern, but I can't think of one. The governor of Rhode Island has to deal with the big city poverty in Providence.

He's kicking the living snot out of everyone else in the polls, and as far as fundraising. Who do YOU support, just for the record? :)

did your talkign points come right from the clark slog too?

Oh, wait ... we're attacking Dean for what he has done, not discussing any other candidate's LACK of governing experience ... :eyes:


:hippie:

southern command are a lot more valuable to getting a Democrat elected.

If the primaries were set up differently I think other candidates might call attention to how few people Dean had responsibility for when he boasts about what he did in Vermont, but not from New Hampshire.

Sorry to have reality intrude, but Clark didn't "win" the war in Kosovo .. it goes on.
*** warning explicit images of human suffering *** .. http://www.kosovo.com/default2.html

And two out of three of the criminals he went after got AWAY! They are still "in hiding".
B* has a better batting average than that (assuming his definition of a "terrorist")!
He is 1 of 2. Clark 1 of 3.

they weren't in that train or on that bridge or in that hospital ...

since only people from big important states are qualified to be president - let's just forget about the election all together and hand it to Bush. :eyes:

By the way snyttri - are you from a big important state?

I've never, ever heard this before!!!

:P

You can bet Bush would use that line...

NOT! :eyes:

Vermont is a small percentage of many metro areas in Texas.

How many metro areas of Texas have a multi-level court system or share a border with Canada, among other differences. A state is a state, and a successful governor is a successful governor. No ther way to spin that one, I'm afraid.

To think that Bush would not use that one-liner in a debate is to think that it never rains in Seattle.

I'm not. :eyes:

try to discredit a "failed governor from a failed (and small) state" down south somwhere?

It may be a silly point, especially now coming from the failed governor of a large state and now failed President, but it seems there should be a better answer than "nyah nyah nyah."

the Clinton comparison may not work. Arkansas is a big state by Vermont standards.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/05000.html

Vermont census, I wonder the same thing. It appears that he has. There's NO comparison.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/50000.html

n/t

I guess it's something about allowing women to use birth control or something......... :srug:

I delivered health insurance to all (not true btw)
I balanced the budget ( Smaller that many towns, during Clinton boom)
I made bike paths .....

It is so rediculous it isn't funny.

Dean has gubernatorial experience.

Mayors in the old "ward" style of government had IMMENSE powers

I'm not dragging an argument out of you, but only to say that what you think of as "mayor" is not what Cleveland had in the 1970's and before

and stood his ground
Dean was in bed w/big business in the vermont gov mansion

. . . and served in the Ohio Senate.

Wow. That shows leadership at the local, state and federal level.

of one in charge of the free world?

This is the most rtidiculous non-issue that has EVER been posted on this board! :eyes:

survives. The candidates and press have not been previewing that weakness.

I'm not going to debate this ridiculous idea further. Good night!

if Dean had been a better governor, he'd have waged war with NH, beat us and made Vermont a bigger state.

Oh, and he should have left home at age 4 and been adopted into a poor black family. What was he thinking?

of their county should jump directly to president. You are pretentending if you think it won't be an issue. The GOP will make sure everyone knows the population of Vermont is 600,000.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

candidate, Howard Dean.

old message, snyttri.

The GOP is far more enamored of Lieberman - who leans toward them, or Clark, who used to be one of them.

B*wacko executed almost that many as gov of TX .. so I doubt Dean is tooooo worried about the Reich Wing pushing this "perception".

And how many Kosovians were killed during the NATO "rescue"?
And Iranians? et al ..

Dean's rural credentials and plans could steal a huge chunk of the southern vote. The GOP depends on the "rural" vote - this is one of Dean's hidden assets.

Does that answer the question?

We'd all like to know.

and haven't been since the early 1980's. :eyes:

your statistics are almost 10 years old:

http://www.vermontagriculture.com/faq.htm

http://www.ehr.nsf.gov/epscor/statistics/glance.cfm?st_abbr=VT

http://www.ers.usda.gov/StateFacts/VT.HTM


Don't let me stand in the way of some good old fashioned state bashing, however.

yea if u say so

like this whole thread isn't a big bash Vermont/Deanfest?

Dean acquired certain skills running a small state that will benefit him in the long run (and already has).

1) As Governor of a small state - Dean retained a closer connection to the people he governed. Politics becomes more serious when you know the people you are effecting with policy. He has talked about seeing people in the grocery store and how the politics takes on a whole new meaning. Compare this to larger states where Governors are more or less out of touch with the little guy - and stand more of a chance of losing touch. The same effect happens to people with long careers in Washington. Dean also acquired a real understanding of people's problems (and a passion to fix them) while he was a doctor. As Dean has said this election is not about him - it's about taking the country back - for us.

2) He has taken this power to connect with the citizenry national - and it is one of the secrets of his campaign. Dean "gets" it in a way others don't - and it is why he has a full-on national campaign - even visiting Utah more than once - he wants the American people to know he really understands where they are coming from. He is out and listening, and empowering. And he is truly an outsider in that sense.

3) Dean achieved results for his constituents by staying in the center. In a smaller state you can't afford to just stick with your base - politics is more personal. Dean's methods were not the same George W. Bush method of getting his base and a few moderate dems, but by thouroughly pissing off the far right and the far left (who always scream the loudest). In this way he became an extremely successful Governor.

4) Dean wants to take this model to the national level. He has seen what the lobbyists do in Washington. He has seen how the national Democrats have failed their constituency on so many levels. It is the passion for the little guy he has built up being close to his constituents in a small state that will take him to Washington and in our plans to shake things up.

I have no worries about Dean running the National Ship. Running Vermont was not a liability, but rather a perfect fit for a man like Dean who's idealism is striking a chord across the country. He has already proven to be more effective than the entire Democratic Apparatus, whom are squirming and squealing at his success. By that alone, and with the mandate of the people (rather than big businesses) who support him - Washington could see the change in leadership we've needed so sorely, for such a long time. Howard Dean clearly fits the bill. He will do what's best for all Americans - not just the fringes - as he proved in Vermont.

I guess we ought to throw in the towel folks. No more candidates from anywhere but California. Or maybe Alaska???

Which measure of size would you prefer?

And is this 'size' thing another one of those male insecurity issues?

:evilgrin:

Jeez...

:hurts:

insignificant lefty pinko abortion supporting enviromentalist hippies.

I would be worried if he was getting a pass the size of maybe say California(Arnold)or Texas(Bush), at least.

Boy how the tunes are a-changin'.

he won't as we approach the general election, if he gets that far

:thumbsup:

executive position in their government, which is the closest comparable position to President, I am not concerned. He was the top executive in VT for 11 years. That is impressive regardless of the size of the state.
The fact that he was elected 5 times in a small state shows where it impossible to hide from your citizens is impressive.
The fact that he balanced the budget 5 times is impressive.
The fact that he has experience with trade agreements with other countries (Mexico and Canada do count) is impressive.
The fact that he had to work with a bi-partisan legislature to pass legislation and balance his budget is impressive.
The fact that he has provided healthcare for the children and elderly of VT is impressive.

No other candidate in this race has has this record to stand on, nor Dean's executive experience and it is impressive.

What is not impressive, is this silly criticism of the size of Vermont.

went from a peak of over 75% to 50.4% in his last election. He even managed to turn off 25% of the homogenous Vermont voting population.

25% of the voters who knew him best and longest rejected him. And he's supposed to bring NEW voters to the polls? I guess he'd have to - the old ones don't much care for him.

The Bronx has more than twice as many people as Vermont.

Let's make Adolfo Carrión Jr. Presdent.

He won the "Friend of City Cyclists" award! :)

http://www.transalt.org/press/releases/030509bikeweek.html

really, that's good

This is what will be heard about him if he's the nominee. He's received a pass for now but it would not last.

There are more people in the Omaha Nebraska metropolitan area than the whole state of Vermont. I never realized how tiny it really was.

:thumbsup:

way to rip brah

:yourock:

What's next, Clark should stop getting a pass for being a mre 4 star General, where the hell is the fifth star?

and there's no comparison in wealth or problems. Hell, mayors have a tougher time than the Governor of Vermont.

n/t

County commissioner of Dekalb county Georgia or governor of Vermont? CEO of a Fortune 5000 company or governor of vermont? Los Angeles police chief or governor of vermont?

It's probably harder to be a neurosurgeon than to be any of those. Your point?

If your best argument against Dean is that Vermont is small, I love our chances.