Today My Co-worker put it to words why I am so turned off my HRC's antics

Before I go on, I want to go on record that I think Clinton and Obama are almost the same, they both have very shallow track-records, and they are both corporatists at best. The best nominee is long out of the race. But I will support the winner.

I was riding in the car this morning; I carpool with a co-worker to save gas money. I would say that for the most part I would put him as marginally political, he is a real centrist, and has real reasons for his political beliefs, all in all, not a bot for a party…

Anyway we were listening to NPR as we do every morning, and he said something that I find encapsulates my current repulsion to the antics of Hillary Clinton…

NPR was going on about how her people were saying, “She has won the popular vote…” they go on to play people like Harold Ickie, where they make the argument about how she has won this group and what group when you look at it this way, or that way. If you close one eye, and squint the other, and you leave out all states that start with a vowel you can clearly see she is the winner…

He and I were commenting about how the caucus states are totally left out of her count, and how you count this group for her, and you do not count this group for him. Then he said it, he said what I could not put words to for some time. “Wow Hillary just does not get it, it is the very shit that she is pulling that we are all so fucking tired of. You are doing the same thing that Bush does; you are picking and choosing in order to make your argument. You are saying one day that this does not matter, and the next day it is so important that the world must stop spinning until the issue is addressed, all because it is now politically advantageous for you to make it an issue. This is the same shit, it is the very shit we are all so tired of.”

This hit me like a brick. My carpool buddy is right, we are all tired of this, and it is exactly what the Hillary people are doing. Divide and conquer, page 2 of the Republican Playbook

We are all Democrats, and ALL of us have voted or caucused (almost) and at the end of the day, the process that we use to choose a nominee was played out, and we have a winner. If you truly believe in the party, then what is done is done…

Hillary, you just do not get it, we do not want the choose in November to be a Republican and someone who is willing to act like one when it suites them...

Pure neocon propaganda.

agree clinton is a total tool.

Tis simple logic.

to make it up somewhere. It made them beholden to the corps.

Ever think that your opinion of Hillary have been warper by that very same GOP machine? Think about it. You don't know her personally, nor do I, we rely on the media. And from the start the GOP has manipulated both sides of this primary. The big problem is that we, both supporters and the campaigns themselves, have fallen for it.

These two were my last choices (minus gravel) and frankly the one way left, to really fuck up the GOP plan, is to run together. It would be their worst nightmare and our best hope.

to determine your statement. There is strong argument supporting the idea that we got left with the two weakest candidates because the media led us there, and we are getting stuck with the weaker of those two for the same reason.

I gave up on the media several years ago - around 2000.

You gotta know stuff to start with and you still have to ask who's getting the gravy.

The OP's point pretty much hits the nail on the head. Hillary's campaign is only about trying to win the nomination. Were she to have been successful, she'd have been just like Cheney and said that she wouldn't be held to promises made in order to win.

Fortunately, we look to have narrowly escaped nominating our own prime panderer.

it absolute proof that you have bought the MSM kool-aid, mixed a big pitcher, iced it down with some hate, and drunk the whole thing.

Prefer Obama if you like, but your caricature of a candidate who is almost identical your chosen candidate shows your susceptibility to the wiles of the neocon media.

I'm pretty sure it was Hillary saying all that stuff about how her voter base is better because they're white, just as I'm pretty sure it was Hillary I saw sanctimoniously trying to chastise Obama for using "bitterness" to describe what it accurately refers to, Hillary saying she would have left so-and-so's church long ago if she had suspected they thought anything silly (because she presumably is above having personal friends), and Hillary's voice saying she knew that the Michigan and Florida votes wouldn't count, until it was Hillary accusing the DNC in the headlines of disenfranchising those states when it turned out that she needed them. Note: I do not include anything about Bosnia or RFK because I DON'T CARE about anybody's garbled misstatements. I care about things she said, distinctly and on purpose, because she either believed them or thought other people would. I never saw anybody's arm stuck up her butt, making the mouth move -- there might have been one, but I didn't see any. I am offended by those things and they are unacceptable to me because ***I*** believe they are wrong, not because the media does. And I point it out because a lot of others on DU who have "drunk the Kool-Aid" probably feel exactly the same way.

where you are "pretty sure" she said those things? Or did you see them on MSM? I can edit any speech. Leave out a few phrases and bingo, instant headline. They've done it to Hillary and they've done it to Barack. What you quote seem more like things that had a sound bite followed by a talking head telling us what was said and how to interpret it. Then we have a couple of thousand bloggers repeating and modifying and re-interpreting. Hillary is a politician who says things to get elected. Barack is a politician who says things to get elected. Saying Hillary is terrible because she is a politician is to ignore the stuff that Barack does. He's not bad because he is a politician. What he has had is a pass by the media on his stuff, while they harp on Hillary's. That's how they manipulate.

... shows you to be a bit hyperbolic and, at least temporarily, detached from reality.

I can't count the times I've defended Sen. Clinton as NOT being as bad as Bush or Cheney, even as her campaign tactics and statements have paralleled what we've seen from the Bush years. I think her campaign has sunk extraordinarily low, but still view Clinton as possibly having some basic decency at her core.


"the wiles of the neocon media" ... really? Waxing a bit too poetic, maybe?

You said if she won the nomination she would act just like Dick Cheney. How is that not equating the two.

But I take you at your word that you have defended her. That puts you among a rare few here on DU. I don't think her campaign was "extraordinarily low" except in execution. Just as you have defended her, I have emailed her campaign and spoken with the state campaign leaders about how poorly her campaign was run. It is amazing how much candidates turn on who they hire from the political professional arena. Hillary blew it big time by ever having anything to do with Mark Penn. It was here undoing. By all accounts Obama listens just as closely to Axelrod who has served him better.

For all the crowing on one side and the teeth gnashing on the other, it is interesting to contemplate that if Hillary had used a different consultant, she would likely have been our nominee three months ago. I wonder who the last candidate to run successfully on his or her own abilities was?

(Sorry for the poetry. I'll try to be more prosaic, although "waxing" is a little frilly isn't it?

My comparison of Hillary to Cheney was explicitly specific to a single, documented act by Cheney... when he stated to several moderate Republican Senators, shortly after the 2000 election, that the Bush Administration would not be held to promises and pledges it made during the campaign that had been necessary to win the election.

Hillary's "in private" comments regarding MoveOn.org are just one example of behavior similar to this Cheney exchange.

I know what I said, and don't need to re-read my post. My comparison was limited to Cheney's declaration to the moderate Senators, that he wouldn't be held to campaign promises.

This isn't helpful.

Be of good cheer. Celebrate Democrats and work to defeat republicans. Continuing the calumny does nothing to help either of those goals.

Sorry I got you riled.

*My* post was just one too much?!? Or is it that it was made clear that you had misrepresented what I'd said. And you tell me to "let it go" but continue to assert that I had "misrepresented" Sen. Clinton. Alas...

(And who inserted the over-the-top language to the branch...? "... absolute proof that you have bought the MSM kool-aid, mixed a big pitcher, iced it down with some hate, and drunk the whole thing.")

Thanks for the chuckle.

Hillary brings nothing to the Democratic side of the equation, but galvanizes the republicans who will turn out to vote against her - the other side does not believe a black man can survive in office, which would make their long-time nemesis, Hillary, in the driver's seat.

If she's anywhere on the ticket, we lose.

edit spelling

So

i never voted for him. i don't want a president who i'd like to have a beer with. i want someone who's to busy running the country to have a beer.

he is ours. Which is good for us and bad for them.

Trust me, I tired...

Intelligence...yes. Having control of himself and those around him...yes. Listening to others when its needed...yes. Standing up when needed...yes. Not acting macho (male/female)...yes. Caring about others...yes. Admiting when a mistake is made...yes. Obama...yes!!!

she's beholden to the insurance companies and drug companies who helped fund her campaign. he is not. she is the "old". he is the "new".

Yes, she has corporate lobbies. So does Obama. So does John Edwards. So did John Kerry and Al Gore. So does every member of the congress.

Criminy. Get some new material and make it sensible this time.

are so myopic that we could very well snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Democrats - we are a strange bunch - I certainly don't like Republicans, but you have to admire the way they circle the wagons, while we line up in our traditional circular firing squad.

your friend feels:


Hillary is now trying to rally her major donors to help her stay in the race beyond this week (her campaign is talking about challenging Michigan now), and at the same time the donors are magically, on their very own (nudge nudge wink wink) demanding that Hillary stay in the race until the convention. A Clinton donor tells me that on a conference call today with major fundraisers this afternoon, Harold Ickes told them Clinton isn't planning to drop out. He pressed donors to stay unified, and reviewed tactical options, including challenging the Michigan delegation. State finance committees are also circulating letters to deliver to Clinton tomorrow in New York, and I've obtained a draft of the Illinois finance committee's letter, being circulated by a Clinton fundraising aide, Rafi Jafri, which stresses a fight until the convention, and a resolution in "August, and no earlier."

and


From Ben Smith:

Ken Vogel reports from the Clinton bubble a Clinton spokesman is pushing back on the notion of a concession soon, something even many of her aides and top supporters now expect. Hillary Clinton will not drop out of the presidential race Tuesday or in several days that follow, the spokesman,Mo Elleithee, said Monday afternoon. "It's pretty clear that she's not conceding," Elleithee told reporters on Clinton's campaign plane en route from Rapid City, S.D. to Sioux City, Iowa.

Instead, Elleithee said Clinton would be "aggressively courting" superdelegates and "putting together the next phase of the campaign," which he said could include campaign events around the country.

More from ABC:

When asked why Clinton was spending tomorrow in New York at an event the campaign is calling a "victory party," Clinton’s spokesperson said, “it’s a good way to close out this phase of the campaign is come to New York bring all of her supporters together, have a big celebratory election night party as we move into the next phase of the campaign which is obviously the courting of these delegates.”

I am with your friend.

One more day of confused message and total spin from Camp Clinton.

I have been posting for months how they not only have eaten through nearly $200,000,000, ending up who knows how much in debt, but eaten through an entire series of messages, never keeping one.

We tend to quickly forget, but think back. After the February disaster and the subsequent dozen Obama wins, Wolfson and Penn were publicly arguing, publicly for crying out loud, as to which one of them was most responsible for the loss.

Hillary had a 53% lead, 16 years of name recognition, over 150 pre-committed Superdelegates in her pocket, a former President as a husband - all the right things.

Yes, she ran up against a well-organized, relatively-unknown, long-shot candidate in Senator Obama, but even with all his right moves, on paper she still should have won.

But she and her totally disorganized campaign did just the opposite. All the right things, but none of the right moves. Back-stabbing, back-biting, complaining, arguing and more. And all of that was within the campaign, not taking into effect what they were trying to do to opposition.

Here we are in the final hours and mixed messages are flying everywhere.

Yes, I think we are all so sick and tired of it.

of the pundits, as early as late Fall were saying that the Clinton campaign had been run 'as near perfect' as they had ever seen ( I am quoting one in particular, but this was the consensus). SO, I'm not sure that it can be said that Clinton wrecked her campaign any more than Obama is responsible for his 'religious gurus'.
And I am still a little bewildered about the level of ire against HRC and WJC. They made missteps (in itself, very surprising), but so has Obama. His level of honesty is not far and away better than HRC, so again, I am surprised (sorta) at the unvarnished hatred. But we, unlike the Republicans, do tend to eat our young.

Yes, the seven-year run-up of the campaign to last fall was well-manipulated. I totally agree with you.

1) Don't return to either spouse's home state
2) Select an easy-win Senatorial state to claim as a new home
3) Don't do anything too liberal or controversial
4) Begin the whisper campaign of inevitability
5) Declare informal victory before any other candidate catches hold
6) Convince the mass media that it is over on February 5

It was well executed until there was organized competition. At that point it was unable to react. The top-heavy old style structure was beat from the start. Obama didn't raise that much more but spent double in persuasion because he had it to spend. Look at the FEC's, especially the percentage overhead factors between the two campaigns.

I've been in the campaign strategy business for forty years, and I've never seen a major national campaign so badly mismanaged.

I have a 20-year-old field protege who was aghast at the fact Camp Clinton didn't even know Texas had a primary/caucus combo until three weeks before election. And she was (and still is) paying millions for strategic and tactical consulting. He could have put together a better 50-state ground game in a week than her people did. They didn't react. When catch-up didn't work after February 5, they began to play dirty and mis-remember the commitments they had previously made.

Her messages (I've lost count of how many there were) were mixed, often contradictory, and never defined her. Her paid consultants debriefed IN PUBLIC in February. Had I been her CM I would have fired every one of them for that alone. And if you are demonstrating leadership, pretending to fire someone, a most visible employee, while simply hiding them in the closet destroys any credibility.

If we take the list of things NOT to do from Campaigns 101, they managed to do most of them.

Yes, this is all just my opinion, but I've been posting on it since February. Honestly, I think it is why so many professionals, both in communication and campaigning, kept calling this race over after February 5.

Most average citizens didn't see it, probably won't ever see it. Not because they are less intelligent. It just isn't their business.

Look at Senator Kennedy. Most early reports were calling it stroke-like. Only the experts saw it was a dangerous brain tumor.

"OK, Teddy, you have irreversible cancer. We can either operate right away and start chemo, like now - this week at the latest, or you die. Simple. Take your pick."

I think the Senator and his family made a wise choice. Somewhere between the inevitability you and I agree upon in 2007 and March of 2008, Hillary Clinton did not.

Thank you.

Some folks seem to view 'Values' and 'Principles' as a tool-kit or buffet ... to be selected according to the task at hand or the day's appetite. These people often call themselves 'realists' or 'pragmatists' ... what's generally conceded as a Consequentialist Ethic, but with extremely short-sighted and self-serving motives. Over time, we see such people as acting in ways we regard as hypocritical - flip-flopping. Dubya is an extreme example ... without ANY respect for Truth vs. Fiction.

Most of us saw Paul Wellstone (for example) as someone who regarded a carefully-constructed set of hierarchical values and principles as the sole compass in taking action. "Never separate the words you speak from the lives you live" is as good an advocacy for integrity as I've heard in decades. I'd call it Deontological Ethics, doing the Right Thing. Such people appear consistent and (from the cynic's viewpoint) somewhat Ivory Tower. From the cynic's viewpoint, they're "idealists" ... but all should be able to admit that these 'idealists' place a far greater demand on themselves in meeting such standards than they ever do upon others. That's the EXACT opposite of someone like Dubya or Dickie.

that we've just all had enough of.

song and dance, politics as usual.

Tax cuts?

But yea, I totally agree. I hate all this negative crap and all this gotcha politics. I just want to know what you believe in and what you want to accomplish.

get people whipped up into a frenzy over fear.

:kick:

Campaigns tend to get dirty and both sides did their share of mud-slinging.
It's almost over and both sides need to get up, brush off the dirt, wipe their
noses, dry their tears and makeup and shake hands. Let's move on and fight
the real enemy now.... the GOP, the repukes and McLame, Bush III. :puke:

and her willingness to twist with the political wind just made me so Over Her From Day One.

but there are whole worlds of people, several million by last poll, who feel that what your co-worker said would apply to Obama. Then there are some thinking people who know that the words apply to both.

Don't let the neocon machine or the media corporatists mess up your mind. They may have selected our candidates for us because they are that powerful. But we don't have to let them have our minds. Look around. See who benefits from each story. Unfortunately we don't have media that presents the news. They have a product and a narrative to sell. All stories are put through that sieve. If you hear it on the television or radio, it is slanted. Slanted for a reason. Look to who benefits if you buy the story as pure truth -- that's the product.

from her mouth and I've watched her say it on video, so it's not spin.

The other 5% comes out of Bill's mouth.

sound bit them over and over. They didn't do that to Barack. When I hear someone say they are mad about what Hillary said they usually follow it with something like how she said mccain would be a better president than Obama. She never said that. She never even came close. But the media and the bloggers picked up her statement about experience and said that that meant she was saying mccain would be better. No. It doesn't mean that at all.


Then they say look at where she said white people won't vote for Obama and that she had the bigot vote. No. That was SNL. But you would be surprised how often that gets quoted as a Hillary statement.

Now you might be the exception, but of course, here in anonymous DU we can't know each other. I have two points. One is that the media has controlled what you hear and what they want you to think about Hillary. The second is...what difference does it make. The nomination is in and this rancor and personal shit is only helping mccain. Who want's to do that?

And lies don't fly.

and their own navels. Sure lies fly. There are thousands of them flying back and forth here every day. Some from the Clinton camp. Some from the Obama camp. Don't be naive.

K/R ... and a quick read from March 22:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/phrigndumass/17

consistently confirmed your assessment.

Belated kudos to a great post Phrig.

I was born and grew up in Elmhurst. Small world! :hi:

My grandparents lived in Elmhurst (back when I rode a tricycle)

:hi:

Kick and Rec

Say what you mean and mean what you say. Simple.

I'm not dissecting every sentence and checking all the escape hatches. That takes way too much energy and is tiring as hell.

That is Clinton fatigue.

Damn that. Enough already.

But one only need to look at the differences in the campaigns to see who is more Presidential. Hopefully she'll admit that tonight. Her IWR vote was a calculated tactic knowing that she would be running in '08. She wanted to appear Hawkish and that was her biggest mistake. We all knew she would be running since before '98. Since then, she has triangulated her way to appear non-Liberal/Centrist/NeoCon Lite.
America is much more intelligent than she ever thought.

...where Jon Stewart shows clips from hillary from January through april ...changing her goalposts and her words as the race changes...

From "voters get to decide"... to "f&*kin lever pullers"

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=166850&title=indecision-2008-clintons

She even said that she would win the nom if Democrats chose like Republicans... so yes, the spin and smoke and mirrors have left many of us just OVER it all... I prefer reality, not subjectivity...

and Hillary that I want to throw up. :puke:

a George all right. But the one I'm thinking of is Orwell. Remember in 1984 how one minute they were at war with one country, then the next minute, it was the other country.

to impress an O fan.

“Wow Hillary just does not get it, it is the very shit that she is pulling that we are all so fucking tired of. You are doing the same thing that Bush does; you are picking and choosing in order to make your argument. You are saying one day that this does not matter, and the next day it is so important that the world must stop spinning until the issue is addressed, all because it is now politically advantageous for you to make it an issue. This is the same shit, it is the very shit we are all so tired of.”

All that, and the author didn't say a goddamn thing except to express the shallow and hateful opinions this board is rife with on a daily basis. Why can't an Obama fan ever say anything substantial as to why they are against HRC. Going on about the "same shit", and spinning her into a racist is not just shallow thinking, but shows no effort to state anything other than a personal opinion. I have the same general opinion of Obama fans, that I did the bushbots. The difference being, the bushbots didn't demonize, or alienate half the repug party, which would have effectively shut them down, even with cheating. Like I've said before, I have been taken to the heigth of disgust and amazement simultaneously at the lengths O fans have taken their campaign of hate, and phony outrage. We are in deep shit come November. Thanks.
quickesst

Hillary: "We know the (primary) votes are meaningless (in FL)."

Hillary, 5 months later: "Every vote must count!"

One of those is a LIE.

We don't need another liar.

k&r

:kick:

bye bye Billary.
hurry before the door kicks your @$$!

that Hillary has played throughout this primary. Picking and choosing right up til tonight.

No wonder some of her supporters are raging mad. I would be too. In fact I am in an observer way.

Hopefully Obama will wrap it up very soon so we don't have to look at any more of Hillary Clinton

with a mike in one hand and the other hand raised in a gesture to "make her point".

Enough.

that Hillary has played throughout this primary. Picking and choosing right up til tonight.

No wonder some of her supporters are raging mad. I would be too. In fact I am in an observer way.

Hopefully Obama will wrap it up very soon so we don't have to look at any more of Hillary Clinton

with a mike in one hand and the other hand raised in a gesture to "make her point".

Enough.