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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:04 PM
Original message
Obama Backing FISA Compromise
Edited on Fri Jun-20-08 03:10 PM by ProSense

Obama Backing FISA Compromise

By Greg Sargent - June 20, 2008, 3:52PM

Obama's statement on the FISA compromise is in, and suffice it to say that it won't make opponents of the Dem cave-in very happy. He's supporting it.

<...>

"Given the grave threats that we face, our national security agencies must have the capability to gather intelligence and track down terrorists before they strike, while respecting the rule of law and the privacy and civil liberties of the American people. There is also little doubt that the Bush Administration, with the cooperation of major telecommunications companies, has abused that authority and undermined the Constitution by intercepting the communications of innocent Americans without their knowledge or the required court orders.

"That is why last year I opposed the so-called Protect America Act, which expanded the surveillance powers of the government without sufficient independent oversight to protect the privacy and civil liberties of innocent Americans. I have also opposed the granting of retroactive immunity to those who were allegedly complicit in acts of illegal spying in the past.

"After months of negotiation, the House today passed a compromise that, while far from perfect, is a marked improvement over last year's Protect America Act.

"Under this compromise legislation, an important tool in the fight against terrorism will continue, but the President's illegal program of warrantless surveillance will be over. It restores FISA and existing criminal wiretap statutes as the exclusive means to conduct surveillance - making it clear that the President cannot circumvent the law and disregard the civil liberties of the American people. It also firmly re-establishes basic judicial oversight over all domestic surveillance in the future. It does, however, grant retroactive immunity, and I will work in the Senate to remove this provision so that we can seek full accountability for past offenses. But this compromise guarantees a thorough review by the Inspectors General of our national security agencies to determine what took place in the past, and ensures that there will be accountability going forward. By demanding oversight and accountability, a grassroots movement of Americans has helped yield a bill that is far better than the Protect America Act.

"It is not all that I would want. But given the legitimate threats we face, providing effective intelligence collection tools with appropriate safeguards is too important to delay. So I support the compromise, but do so with a firm pledge that as President, I will carefully monitor the program, review the report by the Inspectors General, and work with the Congress to take any additional steps I deem necessary to protect the lives - and the liberty - of the American people."




Edited to add emphasis.

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PM7nj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. ..........................
:nuke:
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Liberal_Stalwart71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
32. We need to...
1. Get rid of the DLC scum which has too much influence over our domestic and foreign policy. The Democratic caving can be traced back to DLC and some Blue Dog Demcrats who are running in conservative districts.

2. Win a SOLID MAJORITY in the U.S. Senate. Without those 60 votes, Obama will not be able to deliver on these so-called promises and we will continue to be disappointed with him.
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GarbagemanLB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
2. We'll see what he does with the retroactive immunity. I am disappointed.
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enough Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Very disappointing, but he states that he will work to remove the immunity provision.
We need to hold him to that.
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
27. yeah - you believe that?
We have been sold out.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. It says right there in the statement that he opposes retroactive immunity
"It does, however, grant retroactive immunity, and I will work in the Senate to remove this provision so that we can seek full accountability for past offenses."
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GarbagemanLB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. and what if he can't get that amendment passed? Will he still vote for it? I hope he takes a stand.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. As do I.
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #18
45. There's no hope for that amendment, and he must know that
He's not stupid. He's trying to placate the left.
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
30. then why support it in the first place?
political expediance . . . that's all it is.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. Disappointing.
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
4. Yes We Can spy on you!
Edited on Fri Jun-20-08 03:09 PM by MrCoffee
Shame on you, Senator.
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
37. "but the President's illegal program of warrantless surveillance will be over."
Did you miss that part? :shrug:
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Yes, it will be over, because the House just legalized warrantless surveillance
Edited on Fri Jun-20-08 03:34 PM by MrCoffee
I missed nothing, thank you.
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #39
49. How so?
"It restores FISA and existing criminal wiretap statutes as the exclusive means to conduct surveillance - making it clear that the President cannot circumvent the law and disregard the civil liberties of the American people."

What am I missing?
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. disgusting, but hardly surprising.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. The very sad part is that I wish I were surprised. I'm still angry
Edited on Fri Jun-20-08 03:14 PM by Catherina


Barack, tread lightly. You're treading on our dreams.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
57. well, I didn't really have any dreams regarding him. he is doing about what
I have been expecting.

it is interesting to watch how people rationalize his acting like the politician that he is.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #57
93. I'm actually finding that a bit disgusting (not interesting)
One good thing is that there isn't as much of it as I expected. That's good news because it means Obama will hear the angry NO and respond accordingly- I hope. It must be kind of rough when the netroots has you by the balls.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
6. My third disappointment. So soon Barack? I am not happy.
Your firm pledge to carefully monitor as President doesn't mean jackshit. Can you vouch for future Presidents?

NO. NO. NO!

Look Barack. My support is a two-way street. I'm extremely disappointed.

:nuke:
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. I don't know why folks are reading this post and state being dissappointed?
It reads......."It does, however, grant retroactive immunity, and I will work in the Senate to remove this provision so that we can seek full accountability for past offenses."


So what's the beef?


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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #20
35. It's lame Frenchie. I'm really disappointed
This is like voting for the war and promising to stop it later.

He needs to take a stand now and say NO. That's the kind of leadership I'm expecting from him not caving in and saying he'll try to fix it later.

Someone at TPMsummed it up better than I could:


he will back an amendment to remove the retroactive immunity, and then, when that amendment goes down to defeat, he'll go ahead and vote for this "far from perfect" bill.

So now it's a question of who gets to spy on us -- Barack Obama or John McCain. I guess I'm still voting for Obama...

-- ARG!!


I'm not going to cheerlead when he's wrong. He's accountable to us and we're accountable to the future.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #35
50. The senate has not voted on the bill yet. His comments are
Edited on Fri Jun-20-08 03:39 PM by FrenchieCat
due to the house passing the bill...which is why his statement that he will work to remove the provision as it was passed in the house before a vote in the senate is what is important.

But I guess if Obama supporters are willing to jump on him without understanding the procedure, than I daresay he's fucked before he gets started.

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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #50
81. This part is too clear for comfort
Edited on Fri Jun-20-08 04:47 PM by Catherina

So I support the compromise, but do so with a firm pledge that as President, I will carefully monitor the program, review the report by the Inspectors General, and work with the Congress to take any additional steps I deem necessary to protect the lives -- and the liberty -- of the American people."


Rather than dig in your heels loyally defending him, take a look over the net for the reaction among people. It's not good, not good for Barack at all. And it sure isn't good for us, the people those gooks at NSA will be spying on.

This is a disaster. Check the headlines. He must take a stand now.

If we don't hold him accountable, who will? If we don't make him responsive to us, to whom will he be responsive?



Meet The New Boss

Obama Silent as Democrats Give Bush More Spying Powers

Obama announces support for FISA ‘compromise’

Why Obama's Support For FISA Cave-In Is Such A Downer
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #35
77. Sadly, Rethugs would successfully beat us over the head with this cause most voters are clueless
Edited on Fri Jun-20-08 04:00 PM by flpoljunkie
and make easy pickins for the Rethugs.

I would prefer a President Obama to a President McCain to protect our rights on domestic surveillance.
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
42. He knows an amendment removing that provision is doomed to fail
He's trying to placate the left.


If he doesn't know that, then he's simply stupid.


Which do you believe?
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. YES, this is fucking stupid...I don't know what the hell this guy is thinking...let down I am
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #47
71. He's pandering to the left...that's the only answer that makes any sense
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #71
95. I hope he doesn't misjudge the mood. Pandering isn't going to fly n/t
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Elidor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #20
52. Retroactive immunity has very strong support in the Senate
And is very likely to pass. There's very little chance that he and a small handful of other senators are going to strip it out of the bill. Obama knows this.
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Lucky 13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
70. So why not oppose the bad bill now?
Plus the law as additional provisions to continue warrant-less wire tapping.

4th Amendment got trampled.
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
8. You really should read your post before making a thred out of BS. >
Obama - "Under this compromise legislation, an important tool in the fight against terrorism will continue, but the President's illegal program of warrantless surveillance will be over. It restores FISA and existing criminal wiretap statutes as the exclusive means to conduct surveillance - making it clear that the President cannot circumvent the law and disregard the civil liberties of the American people. It also firmly re-establishes basic judicial oversight over all domestic surveillance in the future. It does, however, grant retroactive immunity, and I will work in the Senate to remove this provision so that we can seek full accountability for past offenses.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. "BS" WTF? "So I support the compromise, but do so with a firm pledge that as President,"
Get over yourself.

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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. The rest of us can read just fine. Please don't shoot the OP because Obama's compromising
Edited on Fri Jun-20-08 03:18 PM by Catherina
Obama has no business compromising on this one. NONE.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #24
48. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #48
91. I'd suggest you grow the fuck up and quit blindly excusing things because it's more convenient
If you like getting smoke blown up your ass that's your business. I don't.

GROW THE FUCK UP YOURSELF and then grow a spine.



Blind allegiance just because it's our guy isn't going to cut it in 2008. You want to win and hold on to the Independents making the difference for Obama and making up for all the racists and dixiecrats and war Dems he lost, then quit the normal blind cheerleading. The times they have a-changed.
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. Imagevision, he's blowing smoke up your ass
There are loopholes in that bill you could drive an ocean liner through.
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Youphemism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
29. Not sure about your point...

No matter how you look at this, it's a betrayal of what dems -- even the ones in congress, in the past -- have been fighting for.

This is no compromise. Judicial oversight? They hand warrants out like candy for this program.

You have to see this for what it is: another constutional erosion happening while we watch.

How limp of a noodle do you have to have to let a lame duck president get his way with this sort of crap?
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
10. He backs the compromise, but wants to remove retroactive immunity?
Edited on Fri Jun-20-08 03:11 PM by zlt234
Wasn't that the whole point of the compromise?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. I'm willing to bet it was a bit more complicated than that.
The problem with judging congresspeople based on one vote is that most bills, particularly highly disputed ones, cover a lot more than a single issue.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
36. Yes, but often the other issues are not controversial at all. n/t
Edited on Fri Jun-20-08 03:29 PM by zlt234
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Hope And Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
11. I must say that I`m disappointed.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. It's possible that the immunity provision will be stripped out in the Senate. n/t
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Possible, yes. Probable, no.
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Hope And Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. I really hope so.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
51. It's possible that I can jump to the moon, probable? hell naw
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. How many Democratic Senators are for retroactive immunity? n/t
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
13. Beyond the retroactive immunity, which Obama does not support, what is wrong with the bill?
Edited on Fri Jun-20-08 03:17 PM by high density
I thought the retroactive immunity was the big issue, and Obama said he wants to remove that. The idea of FISA was not a problem, or so I thought... ??

I will not flog him until he actually casts a yes vote for something that has telecom immunity in it.
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SeaLyons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
21. Really disappointing....
"for the people, by the people" - BULLSHIT!!
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
22. Obama, very smart move...
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
26. How....Odd. I am now
officially as cynical as I used to be, like last year.

Add this to the financial tracking amendment in the Housing bill and we now have ABSOLUTELY NO PRIVACY.

The 4th amendment is finished, is it not?

I'm going to have to find a way to get online anonymously.

I might cut the wire altogether.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
28. As long as he gets retroactive immunity removed I am happy.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. I seriously
doubt that will happen and I am sure he knows the odds of it are almost nil.
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. OK, but will he vote for a law that contains the immunity?
One would hope not...
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Youphemism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #28
40. I don't think Obama expects immunity to get removed...

This is nothing more than trying to sugar coat a shit pill.


I still don't understand how a lame duck president can keep using congress as the dildo with which he anally rapes the constitution.
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oviedodem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
33. I am numb and don't know what to do. Maybe its because I don't have a full
understanding of FISA.
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Robbins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. FISA
What pisses many off Is giving the telecom companys that did Illegal spying on behalf of Bush
Immunity from proscution from any past or present crimes.It does force Bush to go to the courts
from nowon to wiretap people but It protects people who broke the law In the first place.If Obama
works to try to get Immunity out then good but If not then this will help the Naders of the world.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
38. Thanks Prosense. I'd rather get the news from an Obama supporter
and be able to discuss this among Democrats. He needs to understand we're not happy about this otherwise "YES WE CAN" is just a pretty song. I feel like crying right now. It's been very hard convincing people on the Left, not center Left but the Left, to support him. This is going to leave a very bad mark and remind people of other votes where he caved. :banghead:
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Sundoggy Donating Member (489 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
43. I should have known it - the honeymoon's over
Obama, you can now count on my vote... and NOTHING else.

I am pretty goddamn mad right now.
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Elidor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
44. He just won Atrios' coveted Wanker of the Day award
I know he's supposed to tack to the right in GE mode, but a bit of leadership is not too much to ask for.
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
46. I believe there is a whole lot..
going on that we don't know...
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #46
53. Yeah, there has to be...they gain NOTHING !! NOTHING for accepting this NOTHING!!
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
55. I think this sucks
period.
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seaglass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
56. If this passes in the Senate with immunity intact, I'm done.
No longer will I associate myself with the Democratic party, I will go back to being unenrolled.

Votes will be earned on a case-by-case basis. Luckily my rep (Tsongas) voted No. I hope it will be the same for Kerry and Obama if immunity is not removed.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. I know how you feel but we've got to ask them what they're getting out of this! I'd be done with...
... them too but they have to be getting SOMETHING out of this SOMETHING!!
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seaglass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #60
78. This is where I draw the line. n/t
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
58. He knows that it will pass the Senate.
No need to be on the losing side this early in the campaign?
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
59. Welcome to the real world
This is one of the reasons why I sometimes objected when people picked out specific instances of Hillary Clinton not voting the way that we wanted her to as automatic reasons to disqualify her from being worthy of our support. The same holds true for Obama.

America elects from the center, and sometimes center left, and sometimes center right, but the word center is almost always present. Some politicians are never willing to take a political stand that might lose them electoral support or keep other politicians from trading favors with them in the future. Some politicians are willing to take some stands that cost them support or influence. But even those who qualify as the latter have to ration out carefully when and where they do that. A few principled stands are a profile in courage. A few too many principled stands are a political obituary with the resultant loss of almost all political influence on important subsequent issues as they arise.

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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. But at least Hillary THOUGHT she would get SOMETHING out of her votes. WTF does Obama think he's...
...getting out of "support" for this shit then talking about the IMPROBABILITY of taking out the immunity part.
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #62
74. Lets wait to see how Hillary votes on this...
shall we?
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #74
80. Don't see what that has to do with my reply but OK, I'm game. I'd still like to know what they think
...they're going to gain out of this.

No, I didn't support Hillary during the final 4 months of the primaries.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #62
75. I can't speak for him, but...
I can guess that he sees a need for some new legislation in this area as opposed to having no legal guidelines for this type of surveillance moving forward. I can guess that he is convinced that this is likely as good a deal as can be reached in the current Congress. I can guess that he thinks it is important for him to win in November and that he believes going on record as opposing this bill in a straight up or down vote as "Nay" will feed into the Republican's major line of attack on him, since most Americans won't be paying attention to retroactive sanctions, just whether or not our Congress can work in a bipartisan manner to keep our nation safe from terrorism. I can also guess that Obama has decided that he doesn't have the votes to kill this bill, that it will become law with or without him, and that it isn't worth giving ammunition to the enemy in a close election when he can't change the outcome anyway.

Those are all just my guesses of course.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #75
82. Economy is the big issue this election cycle and even kkkons want out of Iraq!! The "security" shit
...is a no go for McSame and the reason why the GOP lost the last special election in the south is the reThug candidate said he wanted to stay in Iraq.

No one, even reTHugs want to stay in Iraq....

Again, this vote makes NO sense and it sounds like Obama is listening to the same people Hillary did instead of his best judgment.
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TheDoorbellRang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #75
90. I wish I understood all of this better.
It seems to me that the previous FISA law had all the protections in it that this one does. Then B*shco ignored it for years. Now it looks like they're saying they're re-establishing FISA and giving a free pass to all who weren't obeying it these past seven years. Am I wrong? Was FISA actually overturned or merely ignored by B*sh?
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. Far as I can tell Bush never overturned FISA, instead his Justice Department
took the position that areas of the Constitution gave him executive authority to over ride FISA provisions for national security reasons, but I'm no lawyer so take this with a big grain of salt. Congress disagreed setting up a legal confrontation. I haven't looked into the details of this bill, I think it mainly clarifies that Congress was right and restores the FISA practices (but I may be wrong on that) while sort of saying we understand that some people thought the law was murky and acted in good faith when they went against FISA before, so we will give them a get out of jail card for their earlier mistake as long as they don't do it again.

Anyone else understand this better than me?
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #59
68. No Tom. Welcome to this new world. If Obama fucks up, we're walking
No more blind loyalty. No cheerleading for bad decisions. No pretending it's ok because that's how it's done.

If Obama wants to play for the center, that's what he can count on, a few tepid votes from the sleeping and conventiently no-conscience center.

Good Lord, how long are people going to excuse bad behavior and cover it up? Hillary HAD to be held accountable for her bad votes and the same applies to Obama. He represents US, not the other way around.

I'm really angry now, at him. Sorry of my anger is brushing off on you.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #68
79. No problem Catherina, I don't take it personally at all.
Of course we have to hold our leaders accountable for their votes, I am just conscious that we live in a binary political universe most of the time, and that binary choices can have huge consequences. Compare the world we would be living in today with what we ended up with, had Al Gore been President after 9/11 rather than George W. Bush.

What we really have to keep working at is raising the level of political debate in this country, and helping people see beyond knee jerk fear based responses, so that "idealistic abstractions" like liberty don't always get shorted for so called "practicalities" like "security". That's our job, no leader can do that all by him or her self. If we don't help do sufficient ground work, a leader to our liking won't remain a leader for long.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #79
87. Good points I agree with
I'm just fuming too much right now to answer you as well as you deserve.

The ugly pickle the Democratic Party is in is that holding Obama accountable shoots us all in the foot and if Obama is knowingly taking advantage of the bind we're in, well, I have no words.

I hope he "clarifies" his statement immediately. :hi:
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #68
84. WORD!!! ...."LITTLE" votes like this give the Bush admin room to do what the fuck they want WHEN the
...they want and NO ONE stands up to them...

There's NO net gain out of this...it makes NO SENSE!!!
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cbayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #68
94. Catherina, Obama is going to make a lot of decisions that you or I do not agree with.
Sometimes it will be clear why he is doing so and sometimes it will not. I agree that there should be no more blind loyalty. Part of the problem is that there has been tons of blind loyalty. This idealization has set him up on a very high pedestal. That's a long way to fall. He is still going to be a remarkable President, but there will be many times he will disappoint me.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #59
73. The real world? The real world doesn't want Bush spying on them.
Nothing wrong with Obama's statement. There are a number of Democratic Senators who voted against retroactive immunity. In fact, both Obama and Hillary supported Dodd's stance against it, but only Obama showed up for the vote.



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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
61. We need to grab his attention ASAP. The comments on the net are very angry
and very disappointed. That's not good for a candidate running on HOPE!

Examples just from TPM


So I just saw this over at DailyKos. Evidently Sen Reid said today that he will have a separate vote on the retroactive immunity provision of the bill. Evidently, then, we will have a chance to scrub that provision of the legislation from the Senate version of the bill and Obama plans to work with the effort to remove it.

If he succeeds, I will be obliged to him and all the other senators who make that happen. If he does not, and if he goes ahead and votes for the "compromise" anyway, then I expect that my summer will become far less busy, as I will have a lot less volunteering to do.



for the first time since i've been a supporter, Barack Obama has seriously disappointed me. this is weak-kneed and counterproductive.



et tu, barack?




huge cave-in for the dems! but it's a good political decision for the general election by running to the center and defusing this before it becomes unbearable baggage (dems holding up anti-terror legislation...) but it's a definite disappointment to many of the more progressive folks among us.

sad day for the constitution...



This is the same old weak-kneed dodge that Dems have been giving ever since 9/11 to attempt to obfuscate their lack of backbone. It runs completely counter to the reality of public opinion and makes them look even weaker than the imagined weakness of a negative vote. If Obama goes down that route then he'll look like just as afraid of a lame-duck Bush as the Dems currently do.



What is Ralph Nader's number?



Gawd damnit!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Feingold can you slap some sense into him!?!?! Please....



Obama just lost my vote. I will not vote for anyone who supports this legislation, regardless of political party affiliation.



It has never really been about protecting the telecoms that obeyed the unlawful orders.

Rather it has been about protecting the government officials who gave the unlawful orders--and those in Congress who were briefed on the warrantless surveillance programs and who chose to look the other way.

Mission accomplished--in a grand bipartisan capitulation to the unitary executive.

And now watch the telecom executives' campaign contributions roll in to Congresscritters of both parties in return for services rendered to the industry. You scratch my back....

What a country!



Wish I could say I was shocked, but the words that come to mind are something more like, "I told you so." Well, he is still better than a republican—I hope.



Well, looks like I won't be voting in November. I just can't, in good conscience vote for someone who won't fight for the Constitution. Whoever wins - it won'tbe my fault.



Feh. I'm certainly still a supporter, but feh.



How will he work to remove the immunity? What makes him think he can do it? Will he vote against the bill if immunity isn't removed? If he'll vote for it anyway, then why would anybody agree to take it out?



A statement doesn't suffice here. The guy needs to answer questions.



Look, I support Obama as much as anyone. That said: GET THAT PROVISION OUT OF THAT BILL! QUIT BEING A JACKASS!



No more money from me, Obama.



This is very, very disappointing. It's hard not to see his promise to attempt to remove the provision for retroactive immunity as empty rhetoric, since I can't imagine how he thinks the Senate would actually accomplish that.

Man, I'm bummed.


And that's just TPM. Imagine what's being said on sites that are more Left. I'm seriously upset now. $4,600 worth of very upset.

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/06/obama_backing_fisa_compromise.php
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. Me Too, this is VERY disappointing. Why does he think he's getting out of this? Where is the net...
...gaine for ANY of them?!?!

This is a lose lose vote for him, he's not going to pick up .5 percent of the electorate for this vote but he'll sure in the fuck will lose the "HOPE" montra quick.

This vote makes NO DAMN SENSE
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nsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #61
86. TPM and sites to its left?
That's hardly a national coalition. Obama can't win the general election if he has to satisfy everybody. He's against retroactive immunity, which is the big issue, and that's good enough for me.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #86
89. Obama has lost the racist vote. He's lost the prowar vote.
He's lost the anti-Muslim vote. He's lost part of the White woman's vote. He's lost a few other votes that would cause a flamewar on this site if I even mention it.

MOST OF THOSE VOTES ARE IN THE CENTER.

Good luck to us all if he loses even a small percentage of the Left of Center votes.

What may be good enough for you, isn't good enough for enough people. Seriously, check the reaction on the net. This was a mis-step coming on the heels of a few other compromises that upset some of us. The Ad for Barrow and the recent NAFTA statement aren't helping.
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oviedodem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
63. There is a separate vote in the senate to strip the immunity
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/20/155839/542/779/539258

I would assume he would vote to "remove" the provision. HOWEVER, what he does with the actual FISA vote after this is key I suppose.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. Yes, because "stripping" out of the immunity is a long shot...a VERY long shot
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
64. Obama; "so that we can seek full accountability for past offenses"
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. HOW?!?! The proponents will say it'll compell the Bush admin to come forth with documents etc on WHO
...they were spying on but WHEN in the HELL has the Bush admin gave a shit about law?

They never have!!!
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
67. many a tears have to fall, but it's all in the game
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #67
72. I know you're not gleefully saying "I told you so" and smart enough to understand
Edited on Fri Jun-20-08 03:53 PM by Catherina
why Hillary wasn't an option for many of us. I fully expected him to disappoint me, just not so soon. Either way, since I was fully expecting it, I'm prepared. He's going to catch a fucking earful.

Dear Barack, when you go to Washington on the backs of the people, you belong to the people. It was your Fasutian bargain and now we're going to hold you accountable.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
76. Well some of us tried to tell y'all
That we should never ever gloss over a candidate's flaws, instead each should be confronted. That is the healthy and democratic way.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #76
83. Which is precisely what we're doing here. Note the honesty not spin n/t
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
85. If the Senate reworks the bill
Edited on Fri Jun-20-08 04:11 PM by blogslut
and removes immunity, Bush will veto it.

Really, you guys. If our combined Congress passes any sort of fair legislation while that craphead is in office, said craphead will veto it.

In fact, I hope to all that's holy the Senate manages to pass a bill that Bush is forced to veto. The closer to November, the better.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #85
88. OK, if THAT'S what they have in mind then great....I'll wait, Obama has done much to gain the suppor
...of everyone I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he's thinking along those lines.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
96. Playing the terra card is always a cover for self-interest.
He says as much in his last book. But I can't quite figure out what the benefit is, covert or otherwise.
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