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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:24 PM
Original message
Ideological purity will get us nowhere.
      To be quite frank, the fact that so many people seem
ready to turn on Obama over this FISA issue is discouraging.
Do you honestly think that Obama is going to be perfect, or
that he can afford to be on our side with every issue if he
wants to win?
      Right now, he has to be pragmatic because he has to WIN.
If that means he has to cast a few bullshit votes, then I'm
all for it. I'll be disappointed, sure, but you know what?
We'll still have won, and that's much, much better than the
alternative.
      I don't blame the people who are angry or upset over
this...but to abandon or refuse to donate because of this?
Grow up. Please.
Barack Obama is not Denis Kucinich, as another poster pointed
out...and that's a good thing. Denis Kucinich himself, were he
somehow able to get nominated, would have no chance of winning
if he were not pragmatic.
      That's the simple truth of the matter.
      When he's finally taken that oath of office, we can rip
into him for every time he even thinks of throwing the repukes
a bone, but until then, the truth is we'll have to suck it up.
      I want to WIN. We won't WIN if we insist on everything
going OUR way. 
      That is all.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. This has little to do with purity.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Then what does it have to do with, pray tell?
I'm disappointed about this, too.
But you know what? Clinton would've done the exact same thing Obama did.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. It has more to do with short-term electioneering than fundamental change.
And Clinton's not runnin anymore.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Of course it's short-term electioneering.
That's, unfortunately, how you win.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. That's how you get short-sighted, conventional politicians.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. What can we do otherwise? This is what our country has turned politics into.
Thank Reagan...and the M$M.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Actually, strong articulate leadership against this claptrap is what people want.
IMHO.
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #23
71. If that was true, Kucinich would be the nominee.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #71
78. Game. Set. Match. Thank you.
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thoughtcrime1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #78
99. Yep, and I agree with you 100%. This thread has been KnRd.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #71
101. He may well have been had he raised $250,000,000.00
Since Obama did, he now has the platform to say it. If he chooses.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #23
100. "Strong articulate leadership" would have sure been welcome when it came to the IWR back in 2002...
...on the part of a certain junior Senator from the Empire State. What say you? ( :shrug: )

:eyes:
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #100
102. Since it's 2008 and Obama is the nominee I say it's irrelevant.
What's relevant is what stand the present nominee takes - or doesn't take.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #102
103. Well, for once we agree. n/t.
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FourPieRun Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
90. if he gets elected, isn't he going to have to think about *re-election?* uh huh, that's the way it
it works.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #90
104. Then we may not see the nonpragmatic positions until 2013.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's 'We, the People..." last I checked!
Edited on Sat Jun-21-08 06:27 PM by Breeze54
:wtf:

"We won't WIN if we insist on everything going OUR way."

Have you lost your frigging MIND?!? :puke:

OMG!!! :crazy:
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. The time for that is when Obama is in the white house.
Right now, every vote and decision Obama makes will be heavily scrutinized by the RW attacks dogs and their puppets in the M$M.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
27. and the Progressives and Independents. It's NOT in the 'bag' yet. He should take notice. n/t
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. The bill will still pass.
That is a fact, from all that I see.....(unless enough senators prone not to vote for it receive an avalanche of mail). Mail to Obama is fine, but mail to others is as productive if not more so.

Whether we end up with Obama or McCain on January 20th, well now....that is up to us.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Exactly. To act like the sky is falling over this is counterproductive.
We have an election to win.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
29. Is that all they told you to post tonight?
:sarcasm:

You've repeated that line all over DU.

BORING.... *yawn*
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #29
43. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #29
66. Your post is rude and unproductive
whereas Frenchie's is very productive and needs to be posted on more than one thread.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #66
91. Trust me... she's posted the exact same words all over DU today. n/t
:crazy:
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #91
106. It's still not okay to imply that someone is making her post it.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #91
119. I read all of Frenchie's posts and
she's makes good points, imo.
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Terry_M Donating Member (559 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
7. Wiping out 4th amendment =/= just purity.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I didn't say that we shouldn't be disappointed over this...
but to realize that saying you won't DONATE to Obama or won't help him get elected because of this is foolhardy and counterproductive.
THAT is ideological purity.
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az chela Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. AND MCSAME WINS
Isnt that just great????
There goes the country
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
35. No but it's got mold on it and you are saying it's fine dining!!!
:grr:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
10. Glenn Greenwald has your number.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. Fuck that. Did I not say I was disappointed?
I think Obama knows what he's doing.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
40. You sound like you are putting those of us who question...on a guilt trip
I refuse to be put on a guilt trip when my party is doing things they should not do.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
12. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
crankychatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. you bring up Wright, Birth Certificate, NAFTA and FISA in ONE FUCKING BREATH?
Edited on Sat Jun-21-08 06:38 PM by crankychatter
get the fuck out
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. looks like there were still some dead-enders lurking under their rocks.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
63. You're promoting smears on Obama and this is against
our rules.

"That pretty much covers everything you need to know...

* Constructive criticism of Democrats or the Democratic Party: Permitted.
* Highly inflammatory or divisive attacks against Democrats: Not permitted.
* Using this message board to work for the defeat of any Democratic Party nominee for any political office: Not permitted.

If you follow those rules, you'll be just fine. If you try to find a way around those rules, you take your chances with the moderators. It's that simple."


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6344459
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #12
108. more info here:
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az chela Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
13. Give Barack credit for knowing what he is doing.
You have to play the game sometimes to get to where you are going.
If the people on DU havent any more faith in him than this how does he stand a chance against the repukes???
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
67. When did DU coalesce around him? I didn't see that happening at all.
I saw his supporters circling the wagons and firing arrows even after HRC dropped out.

Now some are kicking the other former presidential candidates in the groin and their supporters.

How does that equate to 'unity'? When did DU form a pact? :shrug:

I must have missed that episode. :eyes:
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
19. You mean, he's gotta make sure his powder is dry?
Hey, I've heard that one before. And just how well did that work out for US?
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Then what, exactly, is he supposed to do?
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Stand up for what is in the best interests of this country?
Silly idea, I know.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Win the battle, lose the war.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Lose the voters. n/t
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. Not necessarily.
When one's meme is "hope and change", a lot of people expect you to produce exactly that, and NOT just empty promises. We've been conned time after time and a lot of us are extremely burned by rainy day politicians.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #37
64. Well said!
I even got teary eyes reading your words. :cry:

:hug:
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #64
80. Allow me...
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FourPieRun Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #19
109. heh. nt
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
24. simple unadulterated truth-
thank you for this.
:hi:
peace~
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crankychatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
26. he's not progressive enough, he's too liberal, he's too black, he's not black enough
fuckin hand wringers give me a righteous case of the ass

they champion their candidate like old people fuck
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. How do old people 'fuck'? Tell us all !!!
:P
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crankychatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #32
44. with excessive care - use your imagination OR
There IS a website for every imaginable kink... I suppose you could find a more explicit visual aid with Google
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #44
59. Oh, I thought you knew all about 'old people' and how they think. I mean, 'old people' annoy us!
Right? What's the 'cut off' age for when we start ignoring 'old people'? :sarcasm:

Just wondering... I'm a young boomer. I want to be 'prepared' for the Obama WH! :patriot:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #59
65. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #26
61. Yeah thats what you said
yesterday.
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crankychatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #61
69. ya'all repeat this crap ad nauseum with insufficient information and no clarity
explain nothing... ignore subtleties or the candidate's own statements... the existing changes to a previously horrific bill... the ramifications of the telecom forgiveness on outstanding civil suits... the difference between civil and criminal immunity, and it's effect on future investigation

you ignore the fact that it was the Bush administration requesting the illegal spying and his Nixonian assertion that "if the president does it, it can't be illegal."

Legislation is passed with fuckloads of maneuvering and horse-trading

That is the fact...

This whole matter is being capitalized on to disrupt... that is all

So called ideological progressives and purists are crawling out of the woodwork here for the sole purpose of shaking faith in the presumptive nominee

Who is repeating themselves? ya'all are


Some people support their candidate like old people fuck

but ya'all don't support the candidate at all

I suggest ya vote green or shut the fuck up

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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. Ya'all are so old and yesterday.
;)
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #69
75. You can believe that if you want to.
I believe they are collecting money from the telcoms,
and covering their asses.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
28. He won't "WIN" unless he stands up to the CRIMINALS.
He is where he is today because of the perception
that he can CHANGE THINGS.

Not because he rolls over for corporate interests.

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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. We have a WINNER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:woohoo: :applause: :applause: :woohoo:

:D
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Maven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. ...
:applause:

Thank you.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
41. The fact that this was put before Congress now...this was a TRAP laid for him...
and a lose-lose situation.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. A "trap" set by our OWN HOUSE?
He can turn it into a win, IF
he plays it right.

Hint: Agreeing with the "compromise"
is NOT playing it right.

He needs to be seen FIGHTING this.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:05 PM
Original message
It's a shame that Obama would have to be the one to do this...
he wouldn't even have to if Pelosi wasn't such a chickenshit.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
48. He constantly surprises me with his abilities...
Edited on Sat Jun-21-08 07:20 PM by PassingFair
really.

He has left me speechless in the past,
the way he tackles dicey situations
head on.

I think he will make hay out of this.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. Yeah, but it's just another reason why i'm so disappointed in Reid/Pelosi...
if they'd show some fucking spine, they wouldn't be putting Obama in such an awkward position.
Too much to hope for i guess.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #51
57. Yup, I used to defend Pelosi around here...
no more.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
62. I AGREE! I do NOT want a President that has to FIGHT for what is RIGHT!
It's sooo damn time consuming!! :sarcasm:
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #62
84. Oh give me a fucking break. You're starting to get tedious.
What I meant is that if Pelosi and Reid would show some damned leadership for once, they wouldn't have put Obama in this awkward position which is something he really doesn't need right now.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. You're getting tedious, as well... I agree Reid/Pelosi could manage it better
Edited on Sat Jun-21-08 09:13 PM by Breeze54
BUT I don't have all the facts of how their lives work, as far as bringing bills to the floor, on
a day to day basis and that's the part the Obama is going to have to deal with!! Don't you see
that it's always been unpredictable? He's going to have to "Roll with it, Baby"... Remember that song?!
I'm tired of the excuses being made for ALL of them!!! :grr: They just need to do their jobs!!
Stop making excuses! They are all highly educated!!! They know about time keeping, etc. They have
to be professional at some point, don't they? :shrug: Well; I think when you're heading towards
the Presidency, the time for excuses has to STOP.... ASAP!!! All this vacillating doesn't make me
feel secure at all. :( It's a huge stress drag....
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
33. Pragmatism is not a quality that I would associate with the Democratic Party.
The Republicans on the other hand seem to understand pragmatism and the big picture very well. Democrats are often more than willing to sacrifice an election, especially a presidential election which gives the Republicans 4 more years to really trash our rights, rather than compromise on a point which they make their way or the highway (but they are ever so noble in playing the guardians of our constitutional rights because only they not what should be done and how to do it).

As Will Rogers said: "I don't belong to any organized party. I'm a Democrat." How very true.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Republicans didn't win by going to the "center".
They won by standing on principle.

(The principle of greed.)

They have been PROVEN wrong about "free markets".

It is OUR time now.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #36
50. Unless the Democrats win the election there will be no "our time".
Republicans understand that the point of elections is to win them. Democrats seem to think that being always right and pure is more important than winning. That doesn't make me feel better if we are basking in our noble righteousness and purity under President McCain.

Does anybody really believe that in an Obama administration with a solid Democratic majority in Congress that FISA would operate exactly the same as under Bushco? You would rather concede an election and have things as they are for another 4 years rather than wait 7 months? How noble. I'm sure the country will thank you for the next 4 years for being the purist guardians of our constitutional rights as our sons and daughters continue to be sent to fight and die in a foreign war as well as countless thousands of innocent civilians.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. We WON'T WIN unless we fight them HEAD ON.
Remember, if they bring a knife....

The people will stay home if Obama doesn't
show LEADERSHIP.

If he LEADS, they will follow.

Simple.
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
39. And as long as you keep accepting this bullshit just in order 'to win'...
...the people in power will continue to screw you over. Because they know you're going to vote for them anyway. If 'winning' is all that matters, if the end justifies the means, nothing will ever 'change'. They know that. They intend to keep it that way. And they are reassured every single time by people like you who don't care what they do, as long as they 'win'. 'Cause hey! what are you going to do? Vote for McCain? Hell no! So, Obama and every other Democrat can cast the worst votes imaginable, and you will still support him. And he knows it.
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. WInning matters.

Right now that's pretty much all that matters. Sorry.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #45
55. Yep! Republicans understand that the point of elections is to win them.
To often Democrats seem to believe that the point of an election is to be doctrinally pure--winning is not so important.
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #55
87. I think you're right...

And that's what politics is. It's not pure philosophy.
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #45
120. Even if you have to sell out all you belief in and stand for?
'Winning' just becomes an empty shell if you continue to think like that. 'Winning' doesn't matter if the person who is winning doesn't represent your best interests (but instead, merely has a D beside his name).
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #39
73. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. Luckily YOU won't be "recruiting" anyone with your trademark "wit"! n/t
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
46. While I Agree It's Not Worth Abandoning the Candidate
There are several things that raise this to a higher level than the disappointments many feel with his positions on NAFTA, gay marriage, Israel, bases in Iraq, or perhaps some of his economic appointees:

-- It is a core matter of constitutional rights.
-- It is not part of a long tradition or a broad consensus like free trade or a large military budget.
It is a clear break from previous policy initiated by Bush.
-- It is an issue on which constituents have been very clear.
-- The leadership apparently waited until cries of protests died down
and then betrayed that constituency by sneaking it through quickly.
-- It is a cave-in at a time when it's completely unnecessary.
-- There are no clear redeeming factors or tradeoffs.

I understand Obama singled out telecom immunity for criticism. We will see how he responds. But if he votes for the Senate version of the bill, it shows a disturbing kinship with the other Yea votes.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. I agree that he should vote 'Nay,' if he can't get retro immunity removed.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #47
93. WOOT! --- A break through!!!
:woohoo: :toast: :woohoo:

:D
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #93
107. We'll see how he actually votes.
I'll be disappointed if he votes 'yea' but...I'll deal with it.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
49. If we don't win by going "our way" what have we won?
;)
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. If we LOSE by going "our way," what have we won?
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. The only chance we have to WIN...
is by providing an ALTERNATIVE to the present
situation.

Not by rolling over.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. let's see what obama actually DOES...
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. Of course.
I believe that he will do the right thing.

But I also believe that his initial statement
was CRAP.

He will have to do better than that.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. Therein lies the rub.
:D
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
68. Agreed
plus some of this "concern" is a bit suspicious.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
70. Nothing like keeping your powder dry for.... ever
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crankychatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #70
74. are you recruiting? nt
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. Not allowed to do that here
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
79. I hate the term "ideological purity"
If a person opposes the way a candidate is handling an issue they are accused of being "ideological purists". Now of course the vast majority of these people are not truly looking for ideological purity, they are well aware that they will have some disagreements and to a certain point that is fine. There are always certain things however which are not fine, people have the right to expect that the person they are supporting is not going to vote to allow crimes against the Constitution.

The only purists are the ones who insist that everyone cheer for a candidate no matter what that candidate does, it is not the ones who ask questions that are purists it is the ones that don't question the candidates that are the real purists.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Another Awesome post !!!
"...it is not the ones who ask questions that are purists, it is the
ones that don't question the candidates that are the real purists."


:applause: :applause:

Thank You! :D
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #79
83. Did I not say 'I can understand why people are disappointed'?
Never once did I say that we shouldn't be upset by this.
But people continue to misunderstand me.
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #83
89. No, I understand what you are saying and I was not trying to say that you personally were a purist
I just hate the "ideological purity", I think there are certain issues that we need to have litmus tests on and this is one of them. I will still vote for Obama no matter what because quite simply he is the best candidate we have, although if he votes for this bill I probably won't donate to him. I don't have a lot of disposable income, and there are a lot of groups that need my money just as badly as Obama does. I need to make choices on who to donate to and who not to donate to, and I am going to send my money to those who best represent me. Those who want a donation from me have to earn it, and I don't feel there is anything wrong with using something like this as a litmus test in deciding who I donate to when I am limited on the amount of donations I can make.
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onetwo Donating Member (439 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #79
112. Wrong. You're an "ideological purist" because you want your guy to take a position on principle...
...and not for any valid practical reasons.
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #112
114. Principle is not a valid or practical reason? Defending the Constitution is not valid or practical?
Wow, I hope you were being sarcastic because it scares me that there are actually people out there who think like you.
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onetwo Donating Member (439 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #114
116. You're changing my words. It's "valid" but the "practical" reasons are pretty insignificant.
Bush will get a few more months out of his program and then Obama (hopefully) becomes the overseer. Nobody doubts that Barack will respect our constitutional rights more than Bush did. The uproar is for ideological reasons (at least amongst those with a good grasp of the overall situation).
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #116
117. I don't want Obama to be an overseer of an unconstitutinal program.
No President should have these powers, not Bush, not Obama, and not anyone else. Sure I have an ideology that respects the fourth amendment, those who support the so-called "compromise" have an ideology that opposes the fourth amendment. When people want to violate the Constitution there better be an uproar.
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
82. I'm disgusted by it. It's literally making me nauseous.
Actually, I'm going to have to log off this site for now - hopefully it will be back to supporting the Democratic nominee when I return. Peace.
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nsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
85. Right on. My thoughts exactly. K & R. (nt)
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FourPieRun Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
88. maybe, but 'ideological purity' was obama's selling point. if he doesn't have that, what does he ha
have? a half term in the senate and looks good in dark shades?
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #88
92. welcome to DU!

Maybe you're in the wrong place??

:shrug:
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #92
95. Maybe not. I agree with him! If Obama compromises his principles.... what DO we have?
I've been trying to focus on his determination of changing things but if he goes along
with this sell Out FISA legislation, what do I have to even try to hold on to anymore? :shrug:

:cry:

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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #88
97. Welcome to DU, FourPieRun !
:hi:

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FourPieRun Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #88
110. thanks for the welcome. :-)
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
94. People ready to turn on Obama over this FISA issue is disturbing...
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #94
98. Obama abandoning the Constitution & 4th Amendment is much more disturbing, imho.
:puke:
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #98
105. HE HASN'T EVEN VOTED ON THE DAMN THING YET.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
96. "against enemies both foreign and domestic"
So many people miss this

This is about that silly thing we should just cancel if politics is more important than it

Welcome to EMPIRE and IMPERIAL thinking
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 05:41 AM
Response to Original message
111. Lets first win the fucking election
Edited on Sun Jun-22-08 05:43 AM by old mark
and argue abough"purity" later.

I don't want to see this become a rpeat of last time.
Or the time before that.

Crush the Republicans first, fine tune it all later.
Elrond, ramrmber, " I don't belong to an organized political party - I'm a Democrat".


mark
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
113. He is a big boy. He can do what he has to. Doesn't mean I have to like it.
I have been battling Congress on this stupid FISA since early October and I am just sick watching Democrats saying "Oh, well, if Obama says we should let them do it, it must be ok."

That is a very unDemocratic attitude. Right now, in this matter, he is one Senator with one vote.

Here is what I wrote about FISA on Oct. 5 2007

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/McCamy%20Taylor/72

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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
115. Exactly. The average American voter does not understand
issues like this. Sure it sounds elitists. But it's true. There are many morans out there, and Obama needs their votes to win.

It's not a problem that can be solved before the election.

Ideological purity is unreasonable, no matter which side it's on.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
118. I want to WIN, too.
I just define "winning" differently than you do.

The "WIN" doesn't happen when someone is elected. It happens when we are able to move forward on issues. For example, we "win" when:

universal, single-payer, not-for-profit health care is signed into law

we are no longer engaged in any military actions anywhere in the world

we enact a new fairness doctrine

we dump NAFTA and return to fair trade based on labor and environmental standards

we re-regulate and de-privatize

There are plenty more, obviously, but these are a start.

If our candidate does not work to move issues of social and economic justice forward, then we aren't "winning" anything.
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