Winning is EVERYTHING

Now that our nominee, Barack Obama, has all but secured the Democrat Ticket, it is TIME for him to move to the center. Everything he says, Everything he does, Everything he supports, Everything he disagrees with.. will be gone over and over by the press and by Grandpa's Old Party.

Obama must appear to the independents and to the disgruntled right that he is moderate or centrist.

Because Winning the Election is Everything.

Rest assured TRUE BELIEVERS, when he takes the oath of office, Obama will return to the Left.

If you truly believe that Obama will return to the Left, you're either delusional or don't know your history.

Obama is going to do whatever gets him elected to his second term during his first term. He's going to attempt to create a broad majority, which means Centrist, not Left.

Face it - Liberalism in America is DEAD. We lost our representation a long, long time ago.

And sadly if most of the people in America aren't liberal then you'll never get represented by pushing a really liberal person for President.

And what was your process in this divination? A crystal ball, reading of goat entrails, a personal note from the Obama campaign?

Please enlighten those of us who have become cynical of such predictions.

Actually I thought it was a page from Clinton's Playbook..

expediencey and supported Obama because he was "different" and allegedly was being held to a different standard. mHow times change. "Winning is everything" was the DLC Mantra and they were considered the source of all evil.

that Senator Obama would not be sufficiently cutthroat to win, and for that reason the other major candidate, whose political mettle had been tested "in the trenches" was the better choice for our nominee. Now that he has shown that he can be just as cutthroat as he needs to be, must we criticize him as too cynical?

"above the politcal landscape" and then be supported for being exactly that one is running against?

This kind of stuff is why I worked so hard against Hillary Clinton. Obama was supposed to be above this sort of traingulation.

I guess that was only when he was trying to get people to vote in the primary.

I am electing a President here, not a Messiah, I expect Obama to be a bit of an SOB, looking back on things, such individuals tend to get things done, even if they seem morally ambivalent in the eyes of history.

The change he promoted was "new" politcs". This isn't new. It is more of the same.He isn't "staying on "message". The time to hold him accountable is NOW. Unless of course it was all "just words".

I too would love the utopian change that Obama's ideas have been characterized by some as being. "Angelic choirs, light from heaven, etc..." (ring a bell?) Nevertheless, I am willing to settle for a change from the past 8 years. I will settle for a sane foreign policy, regulation and a return to rule of law. None of these are inconsistent with Obama's position, and none of these are likely under a McCain Administration.

candidate who doesn't support the "death penalty". I want a candidate who supports gun control. I want a candidate who will represent ALL the people and defend the constitution. I want a candidate who will keep his word. I want a candidate who has the guts to take a less polticaly expedient course.Obama can still be held to those standards.That is the change that I want to see. If we don't get that where is the change?

In my opinion and they have spoken out on just those issues.And the primary wars ought not to be revisited. I am speaking of NOW.

We'll be stuck with McCain and we all know what that means, more of the SOS of the last 8 years. Also think about congress, we need his coattails to get a much more solid majority. Then we can kick Joementum to the curb. Then we can initiate real change in the economy and in the ending the war.
I'm pretty left and I'll be happy to have half the issues I that value embraced by an Obama admin. But half is an improvement over none, which we are at right now with the present admin.
But it becomes a moot point if he loses, so I'm devoting my energies to make sure that he wins.

Because he stands (stood) no chance of winning. Ditto for Sharpton, and even Ron Paul.

Reality for ACTUAL candidates (those with a chance of winning) is different.

having integrity is too pure for Americans. Rove thought so too....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyxNgnQ9m30

If you want to lose, run as Ralph Nader. It's a guaranteed loser in the United States of America.

If you cannot accept the reality of the American electorate, you should give up on politics.

See Kerry, John: 2004

See Gore, Albert: 2000

See Congress: 1994-2006

See Kerry, John: 2004

See Gore, Albert: 2000

See Congress: 1994-2006

See Dukakis, Michael: 1988

See Mondale, Walter: 1984

See Carter, James Earl: 1980

See McGovern, George: 1972

There are three issues that are guranteed losers now. It's no longer God, Guns, and Gays. It's God, Guns, and Security. If you are on teh wrong side of any of those, you're a guaranteed loser on the national level.

say hello to Rush Limbaugh for we Democrats.

Buh bye

The President of the United States is the servant of the entire country, not just the group that elected him. There are many people in this country who are deluded and lost, reducing every issue into a manichean us v. them struggle, only serves to alienate many people who might otherwise side with us, so long as they exposed to good governance and a savvy leader who could effectively counter the slanders of the RW hate machine.

while appealing to the very folks who like what's going on today. Use the base only to turn on them... Great strategy.....

The GOP is golf clapping again, and again.

We're talking about working class and middle class voters who have consistently voted against their economic self-interest, and are beginning to wake up and realize that things have gone to hell, and the dreaded "liberals" were not necessarily to blame. People are looking for someone who will fix things. Yes, he will need strong principles, and I am greatly disappointed that he has not taken a stronger stand on FISA, but if Germany in the late 1920's proves anything, when people are homeless, cold, hungry and desperate, they soon realize that civil liberties are not edible. We must take power and fix things before it gets so bad that people will embrace whatever monster promises to feed them. Otherwise, FISA will be the least of our worries.

It's only a zero-sum game if you want it to be.

Our government has devolved into a sea of incompetence over the last thirty years, starting with Reagan. It's reached it's apex with Bush Jr. People of all ideologies will respond positively to competence in governance, free of politicization in the various agencies. Party affiliation should not determine if a park ranger is qualified to work, for example.
That is my key hope for an obama administration.

The three issues a presidential candidate can NEVER be on the wrong side of and still get elected.

It's that simple.

You can't do shit if you don't get elected.

most well reasoned supporters for Senator Obama during the primary's, kudos to you.:toast:

Are you recruiting for the Green Party ?

They're a walking advertisement for a third party.

so why support such a bad strategy unless you really want to lose.

How have the last 16 years gone for ya? Not so good huh. Yet yuh think winning at all costs really is impressing voters? What percentage of the cotizens in America even vote? Wish to realize why? Because people don't believe politicians? Want to know why? Because politicians easily throw principles under the bus in order to appeal to certain voters, therein exhibiting a lack of integrity. It's no wonder why a small percentage actually votes for criminals like Bush, McCain and others who are beholden to the very powers that shirk our rights to privacy.

More of the same is not going to beat McCain... only a fool or liar would pretend as much.

Why shouldn't they? We've given them no reason not to.

for politicians who exhibit a lack of integrity. No politician is perfect nor "pure" so those saying I or others want such a thing have nothing to argue with other than ad hominen and contrived rhetoric to sell a talking point.

We have seen enough of this BS in the corporate media and by Republicans and DLCers themselves.

It's not an unelectable purity test. At the very least, it's BAD POLITICS to continue to capitulate to the most unpopular president in US history.

People HATE BUSH. People are fucking sick of the Repugs' bullshit. They WANT someone to stand up to these fearmongers, and the Democrats lose what little respect they have left every time they cave in.

And that's a fact.

Either you want to win or you wnat liberal purity.

You cannot have both in the United States of America.

welcome to ignore since that's what you are doing to other posters. We see your agenda....

"repeat meme... never cease... resistance is futile"

That said, pressure will have to be constantly placed on Obama to do the right thing, as there will be constant pressure for him to abandon progressive agendas for expedient ones. Such will always be the case, we will never get a leader that will who simply does what we want without action on our part.

There is a great danger in this campaign of becoming so reductivist as to end up characterizing this election as Satan v. Beelzebub, and a choice of lesser evils, Obama is not Kucinich certainly, but that does not make him McCain or Bush's clone either.

and I certainly agree with that.

Here and now is neither the time nor the place.

:eyes:

Everything that is done or said by eiother is done or said to appeal to as broad an audience as possible.

If you don't get that,. you don't understand how democracy works. Not even a little.

Voting is the least, most worthless part of democracy. Politicians WANT you to be that trained monkey, just waiting to pull the lever for "Any Dem".

I'll vote for Obama, but I'll damn sure let him hear me between now and the election. And afterwards.

huh... integrity is for losers man.

"See son, compromise your principles, you too can become a politician or even a President. Win at all costs son, and never buy into integrity, honesty or those so called principles. No one ever gets to the top that way..."

Meanwhile, back to reality, we have a criminal administration not held accountable and we still are losing our rights. Great....

Such crap. Why didn't you vote for Clinton if you wanted that kind of craven politics? She's the best at it.

it's that simple.

If you hold standards of purity sacred, accept loising.

It's that simple.

You cannot win on a naitonal level and hold pure liberal stances. Not in this country.

The time to hold a Democrat's feet to teh fire is DURINNG THE PRIMARY and AFTER the General Election.

The time in between is the WRONG TIME to be holding purity standards.

:eyes:

because you obviously want McCain for president if you cannot back the Dem nominee.

Don't like his stance on FISA? Bring it up on Novemeber 5 and push it home every day after that.

Don't like the fact that people can buy guns? Psuh the issue starting on Novemeber 5.

Whatever problem you ahve with Obama, bite your lip and accept it or accept a third Bush term.

Those are your only choices.

Obama will do NOTHING on FISA in his first term. He'll be too worried about a second term. And by the second term, people will have given up and let the Repugs back in, so he'll be stuck.

Should he now cave on the gas tax? What about torture? Maybe he should vote to bomb Iran. After all, it's all about following the polls now.

Forgetting, of course, that this is the guy who's entire candidacy was based on doing the right thing when it wasn't popular.

so it needs to keep being said.

If they can do anything and you'll still support them and attack anyone who complains, what are your core principles, if any?

on November 5, 2008.

IF you don't win, all the principles in the world plus 2 bucks just might get you a cup of coffee.

How do you think this is going to work? That Obama's going to somehow bullshit his way into office as a center-right candidate and then go hard left? It doesn't work that way.

If he runs as center-right, he's going to get votes as a center-right candidate. The more votes he gets, the more his faux center-right rhetoric will be reinforced.

He'll also turn out voters who buy into that spiel (i.e. the dumber, more gullilble voters) and that will lead to a more right-leaning, lower quality batch of Representatives and Senators.

The goal of having such a brilliant persuasive candidate as Obama is the win the fucking debate. If he doesn't even show up for it during the election, he has no chance of changing course once he's in office.

That's the reality.

Sorry if you don't understand how politics works, but it's a popularity contest, not a principles contest.

No thanks.

Part of our job as citizens is to criticize our politicians. If they can't stand up to it and still get elected, then we made the wrong choice in our nomination process.

As I said before: we've got a brilliant, charismatic candidate who already has a 15-point lead on a creepy, bumbling nutbag from a dying party with his nose 12 inches up the ass of a retarded president with a 19% approval rating. And still think we need to lie about his shortcomings?

That's not the democracy I signed up for. That's some sick Lee Atwater/Karl Rove dystopia that Democrats are supposed to be working against.

Dems are addicted to it. Never understood why, exactly.

Survival of the Shittiest.

all I ask is a bit of variety with your shitting on of the progressive base of the party. Too much?

Works for me.

Not a very effective rhetorical device.

Many of us want to win, but not compromise our souls and the very compact that makes us a nation. That falls firmly between your two false choices.

For example, I'm willing to allow nuclear power and corn-based ethanol subsidies if I can have my Constitution intact. It is not a purely liberal position, is it?

Failing to understand that the right to privacy is a deal-breaker for other DUers is precisely why you fail to convince anyone.

Very true. Let's hope that Obama's team and the DNC figure this out in time.

like stupid sheep. In the mean time, he screws himself by ditching principles and looking weak on integrity.

We already see the right wing using this as a way to call him compromised and less than strong. Great tactic..... it worked wonders for Hillary.

I feel really reassured.

Maybe you're looking at a different website? Looks the same as it did in the primaries which he won.


Compromise isn't a bad thing people. Does Obama really want to side with, what is it, 8 (D) Senators, over 92 others? That's got Dukakis written all over it. He said he would work to get telcom immunity removed.

And it's 25 Senators who voted for the filibuster that Obama promised.

It's really sad to see people learn the opposite lesson from all these defeats. Dukakis lost because he was weak. Gore lost because he was weak. Kerry lost because he was weak. We lost the Congress for 12 years because the Democrats and Bill Clinton were weak.

And what's your solution? We just aren't being weak enough?? Fuck. That. Noise.

If Obama has to move to the right to win or pretend to move to the center then it's the same old crap and he's just another politician.

Or should he wait for a poll?


Shit, if I wanted this kind of bullshit politics, I would have voted for Clinton.

Then it doesn't matter what Obama does, he'll have the election secured.

Charlie Black, is that you?

Supreme Court Nominees.

I'll try to keep my blood set to just below simmer.

I think he'll hold onto his core principles, but will shape legislation in a way where both parties can be pleased. he said a big thing he wants to accomplish is making government work again, and government doesn't work when both sides aren't in agreement.

Politics, as I must have stated a hundred times in the past few days, is the art of the possible. If enough of the people in this country can be convinced that government works, then the whole Reagan meme of being terrified of the Government, would die away. But we have to prove to the people not only that we are principled, but that we get things done. Ideals and principles are necessary, but alone they do not fill bellies or provide roofs, only money and the power to use it can do that.

The entire time BEFORE THE PRIMARIES END and the entire time AFTER THE GENERAL ELECTION HAS BEEN WON!

The time in between those two events must never be questioned if you want as liberal a candidate as possible to enter the white house.

Oh wait...

Surely you meant "Democratic" ticket, right?

:thumbsup:

Apparantly, my fingers didn't. :)

:-)

Let's just sit back, relax, and enjoy him destroying the last vestiges of hope for the rethug party.

Now where have I heard that before? :shrug:

oops sorry.:spank:

What about all the citizens from all spectrums who care about laws and truth?

"REST ASSURED" isn't a very convincing argument. Unless we want to look like we're peddling hope and kool-aide, we need something must stronger than "rest assured" especially after 16 years of "rest assured" under Clinton and Bush.

Your own sigline notes the continuing fear of a preemptive strike against Iran. Which candidate is more likely to fulfill that fear? If independents on the left would like a McCain Administration, with its attendant evils, they need do little more than not vote, or vote third party this fall.

Call it a scare tactic if you will, but in the end its Obama or McCain, I'm for the one who won't ram the ship of state into an iceberg at full speed.

If Conservatives and Centrists had put Obama where he is, you'd have a point with that suck-it-up/consider the alternatives line but they didn't. It's not the Independents on the Left who are upset, it's all across. It's suicidal to ask your base to suck it up on an issue that upsets across the spectrum.

In actuality, the dictum holds true for us all, regardless of ideology, democrats, republicans, etc. In the end it boils down to Obama or McCain, there are third party candidates sure, but the current crop (Barr, Nader, McKinney) are unlikely to mount a real challenge. Hence voting for one of them essentially opts the voter out of the system, and allows others to choose their President for them. You are free to say our choice sucks, indeed it may, but the alternative sucks worse.

If you really like winning, I'd think you'd be much more attracted to the Repugs.

Tell me: what would the Democrats have to do in order for you to fight back? Authorize and fund an illegal war of aggression? Oh wait.. . Cave in on the 4th amendment? Oops... Hand the Supreme Court to a coalition of troglodytes? Nope... Stand by while the Justice Department becomes the enforcement wing of the Republican Party? Um... Approve the torture or prisoners and immunize a criminal regime against war crimes prosecution? Damn...


Seriously -- what would it take for you to stand up to the Democrats? Is there anything they could possibly do that would make you protest? Or is anything OK as long as the traitors in power have (D) after their names?

Seriously, call off the attack dog. I'm trying to boost the morale of the troglodytes around here, and you go batshit crazy.

They started out calling him unelectable for being too far left

the fact is they'll say and do any fucking thing to assure a Democratic Defeat

they're fucking operatives

fuck them... I usually mean that in a kind way... the BEST possible way

not now though.... fuckem

gawud... how many times did I just say "fuck?"

I think I've earned the right to complain when he disappoints me.

No wait ... I've always HAD the right to complain about a politician. Even St. Obama.

I have my doubts.

and embracing the shallow Washington mythology and going Republican lite (yet again despite REPEATED INSTANCES THAT NEVER WORKED) is a prescription for disaster on EVERY LEVEL.

Not only for the prospects of winning on the executive- but down ticket as well.

Quite frankly, if Obama listens to the same consultants who've caused this mess, then unfortunately, he'll deserve to lose just as Kerry and Gore did.

ps: Gore technically didn't lose- but that one shouldn't have even been close enough to steal- and wouldn't have been without the Republican lite.

Look, Obama is "to the left" (he hasn't left), but he is not Kucinich, or Sharpton. People who are propping him up as some sort of "progressive" are going to be dissapointed.

Look at his positions, and he is clearly distinguishable from the right. That's good. He's clearly in line with the majority (to put it mildly) of positions that are associated with the Democratic party. That's also good.

Is he triangulating a bit? Yes. But, these are not wholly unusual positions. Consider that in the audacity of hope, he supported (basically) the DP. It's nothing new.

his beliefs. I would prefer a candidate who can lead those to follow what is right rather then say what others want to hear.

Paul Wellstone is crying today.

People were calling him the second coming of MLK Jr. Why the HELL could he do that on race -- one of the most divisive subjects in this country -- yet when it comes to the fucking 4TH AMENDMENT, he goes and hides under his desk.

Is all the brilliant oratory just for when his own campaign is on the line? Does it somehow mean less to him if it's just the personal civil rights of all of his supporters?

This whole thread is funny as shit.

in fact, they are mutually exclusive

This is the mindset that brought us right to where we are now.

This is what got us bush because winning was everything.

This is what got us in Iraq. winning the war on terror and freeing the people from our own plant.

I am sick of the games. This is what many here stoned Hillary for was it not?

Sorry , I want the fucking truth this time , if Obama needs to play top the center and toss aside standing up for what he claims to believe in then he is as fake and as bad as anyone else.

If it's all for the vote and lies for the win then it's a game without borders.

If Obama, as he claims, believes in the people and needs to lie and play the center for votes then he does not believe in the people at all , it is as simple as that.

What people will tolerate to attempt to redeem themselves.