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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 09:23 AM
Original message
Obama is relatively centrist. check.
Sentient cabbages knew he would tack centrist after the primaries. Check.

He has to do this to win the general. Debatable, but that's been the prevailing "wisdom" since Methuselah was in diapers, so check.

With me so far? Good.

I'll vote for Obama, no question. I'll donate to the campaign, which is something I haven't always done, when I have money again (I only get paid once a month). I'll probably put a sticker on the new car.

What I don't intend to do, however, is shut up. There's a lot of complaining on the boards these days about how everyone should put a sock in it and get the guy elected, or wait until he's in office. Well, no: if I sign something asking Obama to reconsider his teacher merit pay proposal, or if I write something suggesting that his administration make poverty in this country a priority, I'm not damaging his campaign. I'm participating in the process. A representative democracy doesn't work if people simply shut up about what they want. I don't want to make Obama lose - I want to make him the best president he can be for the nation. Yes, "best" is a subjective thing. So it goes.

I notice that the complaints are all directed at the left. You don't think there are people in other camps trying to influence the man? Please. If the left seems louder at times, it's because we often can't get close enough to a candidate to whisper.

Wait until he's in office? No, because once he's in office, the cry will be "wait until he presents his legislative agenda to Congress!" It's too late then. He's a grown man - I think he can weather a little progressive commentary.

Will Pitt once posted here to the effect that the left only had itself to blame for effectively going to sleep during Bill Clinton's first term. I agreed then and I agree now. Lesson learned.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
1. that once a month is evil
do you get paid summers? My district won't even do that. This year I saved better though, thank God.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I do get paid summers, thankfully.
My old district paid 2x/month, which was hard to leave behind. Once a month is evil, yes.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. the summer thing really fractures me
We have year round schools, whose personel get paid year round, but those of us who work in traditional schools must get paid only 10 times. Bizarre. I am glad that your new school is going better for you.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. don't know if I could do that.
I'm not that good with money. :hi:
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. I learned my lesson and got an assist from Bush
but even with that I am working half days summer school (so I can move closer to work).
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Liberal_Stalwart71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
3. K&R. Good on you. I'll take it as long as you complain, then donate and vote for the guy.
He wasn't my first choice as a liberal. And I knew 100% that he was a Centrist which is why it took me a while to come on board and support him. But it seems that a lot of DUers, lberals and progressives bought into this notion that he was going to be our Great Liberal Hope. I don't think they did the research because if they really examined his voting record and his stances on actual policy, they wouldn't be so surprised with how he is voting. He is a corporatist, though not of the DLC ilk. He's not a pacifist, albeit he rejects "stupid wars." And he's definitely not socially liberal, as evidenced by his votes on welfare reform in IL and rejection of gay marriage (though he supports civil unions). But between the two candidates, he was the better one in my view because he is slightly to the left of the DLC and isn't as hawkish. If we only have two choices, then we try and do the best we can to choose the one closest to our values. No politician is perfect and we should prepare ourselves to be disappointed again. I think far too many people have raised the bar impossibly high for Obama. Much higher than for any other politician. Some of that is fair but a good part of it is not. He hasn't promised too much or too little. I think he's a pragmatist.
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Merlot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
5. I was talking to a repub friend who thinks Obama is very liberal
I told him that from my liberal perspective Obama was very centrist. It took him a minute to process that one.

He's very moderate, and liked both Clinton and Kennedy. From his point of view, this country is becoming communist. Since he came from an eastern European background, he has a very interesting perspective.

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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. that's our damaged political language, god bless it.
Hell, a liberal perspective isn't even needed to see that he's a centrist.
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FourPieRun Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
67. obama let people (dems) believe he was very liberal during the primary. now he's clearing that up.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
7. The left didn't go to sleep during Clinton
Edited on Fri Jun-27-08 09:34 AM by Nederland
They went ballistic when Clinton passed NAFTA and stayed home in 1994 to punish him. The result was the Gingrich revolution.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. hold up - wyldwolf sez that 1994 happened because
Edited on Fri Jun-27-08 09:38 AM by ulysses
of health care and gays in the military. Which is it?

:hi:, Neder. How's the kiddo?

edited to add link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=6408098#6408154
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. Well, you could at least be more accurate about what I've said in the past
Edited on Fri Jun-27-08 01:47 PM by wyldwolf
Per your link, I stated "we got failed attempts at health care, gays in the military, gun control..."

I've also expanded on that many times, including the same thread you linked to:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6408098&mesg_id=6410979

The very notion the left stayed home to punish Clinton for NAFTA is ubsurd. Democratic voting was only slightly off from the last midterms (which usually have low turnouts.)

I'll say it again. If progressives didn't rely on simple-simon agenda driven explanations for 1994, their memories would clear and they'd remember the early 90s gave us...

* ... encouragement from the left, leading to an unpopular embrace by Clinton of traditional liberal issues like gun control, health care, and gay rights that had Clinton's popularity plummeting.

* ... rubbergate. (look it up)

* ... a huge number of Democratic retirements in conservative districts.

* ... racial gerrymandering that guaranteed big southern losses in the House

* ... the first big mobilization of the Christian Right...

Of course, the fact Clinton won reelection in 1996 along with a 8 House seats, 5 more congressional victories in 1998, and again more House seats in 2000 is pretty inconvenient to some hypothesis the left was punishing Clinton.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. hey! it's wyldwolf!
I'll let you kids argue this one out. :hi:
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. sure, and by the way
Obama is more than just relatively centrist. All he lacks really are three letters to go along with his name. He has the policies already.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. then why does he lack the letters?
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. maybe you should ask him that.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I asked you.
You're the one suggesting that he's DLC in all but name. As I recall, you didn't support Obama in the primaries - if he has DLC policies, and given your affection for that group, why wasn't he your candidate from the get-go?
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. which was silly to do being I don't talk to Obama that often (lol!)
You're the one suggesting that he's DLC in all but name.

Actually, I'm stating it.

As I recall, you didn't support Obama in the primaries - if he has DLC policies, and given your affection for that group, why wasn't he your candidate from the get-go?

I liked Senator Clinton better. :)
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. I don't either - I think he cut me off after I questioned the merit pay thing.
;-)

Actually, I'm stating it.

A flat-out statement? From you? Someone bring me my smelling salts! :D

Actually, I appreciate that. Thank you.

I liked Senator Clinton better.

After all - she has the letters. :D
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. Here's a story for you
In 1986 or '87 Donnie Osmond had a conversation with Michael Jackson about a potential comeback. Jackson told Osmond the problem wasn't the music but "Your name is poison."

So Osmond released "Soldier Of Love" to a limited amount of radio stations under a fake name and it became a regional hit in the places it was played. With that new track record, word spread it was really by Donnie Osmond.

So Obama writes a book called "The Audacity of Hope" in which he praises the Third Way, praises Clinton's welfare reform, expresses his support for private social security companion accounts, advocates a free market capitalist system, states many of the Johnson-era social programs have not worked, states terrorism should be fought militarily, and essentially calls the left and the right opposite sides of the same coin.

Since the book he's altered (maybe just slightly) his stance on NAFTA. He's disappointed many with his FISA vote, his position on teacher's merit pay (which isn't real clear), and probably a few others I don't recall.

Funny thing is, during the primaries the only people pointing this out were people like me (and I actually complimented him for it) and far-left outlets like Counterpunch and one of the socialist websites (I forget which one.)

But now that the primaries are over, some here on DU who would normally be against such policy stances are seeing the picture. A few are calling him on it. Most are justifying it.

Obama is Donnie Osmond. The left would only disapprove of his policies if he had them three letters attached to them.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. interesting story.
Is the DLC brand "poison"? If so, why is that? Donny Osmond we know - it's the cheese factor. Why so the DLC?

I think you underestimated the number of folks who knew that Obama wasn't progressive. I did, and I know that others among the "usual suspect" lefties here did as well.

The left would only disapprove of his policies if he had them three letters attached to them.

You've forgotten the subject of the thread in which we're posting. I disapprove of plenty that he's said, even without the magical three letters.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. yes, and it was one of the most unlikely comebacks in music history
is the DLC brand "poison?" Yeah, to some segments of the left it is. But I think the embrace of Obama despite his Third Way leanings might reveal some of that poison is undeserved (or else many have no idea why the dislike the DLC, it just seems to be the hip progressive thing to do.)

By the way, another few names to add to the list would be Jim Webb and Jon Testor - both non-DLC that have borrowed heavily from them. Then there's Tim Kaine - real popular on DU and as DLC as they come.

I think you underestimated the number of folks who knew that Obama wasn't progressive. I did, and I know that others among the "usual suspect" lefties here did as well.

I'm not so sure. I really don't recall too many here posting on it during the primaries. But maybe they were just quiet about it. I seem to recall you weighing in on the merit pay issue months back, though.

Or maybe the guard has changed at DU. Maybe the influx of Obama-or-die supporters overwhelmed the rest of us.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #46
80. well, go Donny then.
But I think the embrace of Obama despite his Third Way leanings might reveal some of that poison is undeserved (or else many have no idea why the dislike the DLC, it just seems to be the hip progressive thing to do.)

I suspect that it had more to do with a lack of choices at the end of the race. I know I went from Kucinich to Edwards to Obama, and I know a couple of others among the usual suspects who did as well. I'd have much preferred a more progressive candidate (and when Edwards is "a more liberal candidate", it says something about your eventual choice) but I had to choose between Obama and Clinton when Georgia voted. Obama seemed, and seems, to offer the better chance to me. YMMV. But no, no illusions here that Obama is particularly progressive.

I really don't recall too many here posting on it during the primaries.

I think it was jgraz who had the sig line that said "100% for Kucinich...ok, 90% for Edwards...ok, 80% for Obama". I tended to be quieter, in part because I often just had no desire to get into the GDP bullshit. I don't think you posted as often there either, so perhaps you understand what I mean. And yes, I've weighed in on the merit pay thing before.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
35. And a repeat could be in store for 2010
Edited on Fri Jun-27-08 02:18 PM by depakid
should various circumstance come to pass.

And your take about 1994 is spot on, and confirmed by not only my personal experience, but others who were active at the time as well:

See: Hillary and the Politics of Disappointment

....Think about 1994. Pundits credited major Republican victories to angry white men, Hillary’s failed healthcare plan, and Newt Gingrich’s “Contract with America.” But the defeat was equally rooted in a massive withdrawal of volunteer support among Democratic activists who felt politically betrayed. Nothing fostered this sense more than Bill Clinton’s going to the mat to push the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).

Angered by a sense that he was subordinating all other priorities to corporate profits, and by his cavalier attitude toward the hollowing out of America’s industrial base, labor, environmental and social-justice activists nationwide withdrew their energy from Democratic campaigns. This helped swing the election, much as the continued extension of these policies (particularly around dropping trade barriers with China) led just enough Democratic leaning voters in 2000 to help elect George Bush by staying home or voting for Ralph Nader.

No place saw a more dramatic political shift than my home state of Washington. In November 1992, Democratic activists volunteered by the thousands, hoping to end the Reagan-Bush era. On Election Day, I joined five other volunteers to help get out the vote in a swing district 20 miles south of Seattle. Volunteers had a similar presence in every major Democratic or competitive district in the state. The effort helped Clinton to carry the state and Democrats to capture eight out of nine House seats.

But by 1994 grass-roots Democratic campaigners mostly stayed home, disgruntled. In Washington State, there were barely enough people to distribute literature and make phone calls in Seattle’s most liberal neighborhoods, let alone in swing suburban districts. Republicans won seven of our nine congressional races, and reelected a Senator known for baiting environmentalists.

The same was true nationwide.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/11/27/5460/
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
56. Oh wyldwolf, how I've missed your tales of alternate universes.
The rest of us, in THIS universe, know that Clinton was a victim of his own weakness and triangulation.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. the alternate universe is the "progressive" simple-simon view of things
Edited on Fri Jun-27-08 03:39 PM by wyldwolf
But tell me which points of mine you think are fantasy and we'll discuss them.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Seriously, before you post you should really check Leonard Nimoy for a goatee.
:eyes:
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. just as I thought. You have no real or serious grasp of the matter
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. No, I just don't waste that much time debating with clueless poseurs.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. Translation: You're afraid to because you have no serious factual grasp on the matter
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. No, go ahead and check my recent posts. I just don't want to waste a lot of thought on you.
I'll happily debate those who are capable of intellectual honesty. See Nance Greggs' recent rant (among others) if you want an example. Debating you, on the other hand, is like pissing up a rope.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. Translation: You don't have a factual grasp on the matter (oh... and by the way...)
...you're debating me now. :)
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Nope, I'm just annoying you. Which is fun.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #69
77. No, you're amusing me. Which is fun
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. So we're both having fun. How fun.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. yet, you're also doing something you said you don't do. Weee!
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AndyA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
10. This is pretty much the way I feel.
I will vote for him, donate to him when I can, but I refuse to just shut my mouth and accept whatever the hell he dishes out.

He ran in the primary on a more leftist, big change agenda. And now that he's the presumptive nominee, I'll be damned if I keep quiet as he moves toward the center.

In order to offset the severe right wing damage we've suffered over the last 7.5 years, we need someone who's more to the right. Being in the center will do nothing to help us. Better than McBush, certainly, but nowhere need the impact we need in order to survive as a democracy.
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Levgreee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #10
44. "He ran in the primary on a more leftist, big change agenda." That doesn't mean it's going to be
exactly the "leftist big change" YOU want. When in his primary campaigning did he say he would be completely against the death penalty for child molesters? When in his primary campaign did he guarantee that he'd push for punishing the domestic spying companies with all his power?
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Buck Rabbit Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
72. An Obama/Anyone following 8 years of Bush/Cheney is a huge change.
Obama is and was in the center among Democrats, He is to the left of most independents, far to the left of "moderate" Republicans like Gordon Smith and Chuck Hagel, and in a different universe than Bush/McCain/Cheney.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
11. Good point about the left and Bill Clinton...
We really don't know what a President will do until he is in office. We think we can predict but we can't really. I do believe that Barack Obama is a very intelligent leader and will do what is necessary to help the least amongst us. I may be wrong but that is what I believe. Circumstances may dictate radical changes in the next few years. I would much rather have Barack Obama at the wheel than John McCain, if that turns out to be the case?

In my heart, I believe Barack Obama is a progressive. But a pragmatic progressive, if there is such a thing? He is a realist. I believe he will recognize the problems and deal with them in an intelligent and pragmatic way. I may be wrong? However, I am willing to gamble with my vote.

But that does not mean we should not criticize him when we think he is wrong. That is why we are called the "democratic" Party. We believe in debate. No one should feel that they cannot express their opinions. However, I think Obama is running to the center because he feels that is what he has to do to win the election. That does not mean he will govern from the center. As he himself said, he is somewhat of a "blank slate"...
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. that's my hope as well,
that he will govern at least moderately.
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Merlot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. "pragmatic progressive"
kinda reminds me of' "compassionate conservative."
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
12. The corporations are running this country and its up to us to fight back.
Most of us recognized that both Hillary and Barack are centrists. The party ditched all the left-leaning candidates early in the primaries. The entire country has fallen over so far to the right, Republicans in the 1960s look like communists now.

I will never say or do anything to damage Obama's election campaign, and I contribute as generously as I can, but I will not shut up! I want my country back from corporations.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. it's a damaging thought that criticism, or even suggestions, are "slamming".
As I say, you can bet the bank that others certainly have Obama's ear or are trying to get it.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. The control of the corporations is quite evidence in the FISA votes.
That alone should be a wake-up call to anyone who still doubts that corporations are running the country. FISA is not about Obama. It's about the stranglehold that corporations have on this country.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. well put.
Some things - a lot of things, actually - go beyond a given nominee or race.
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judy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
13. Thank you Ulysses!
I could not have put it better! Exactly my thoughts...

I too write to Obama, about how he could have simplified the FISA answer by merely sticking to the Constitution. No need to pander to anyone (just like Bill Clinton could have done that with the "don't ask don't tell" rule: the US Constitution says "equal protection for all", thus end of debate), how I thought his AIPAC speech was a disgrace, and how I think his consideration of using Blackwater is a big mistake, bla, bla.

I also say that I will vote for him and I do donate to the campaign as well.

With all due respect to Nance Greggs, this has nothing to do with "I told you so". This has more to do with the belief that those who are clear, strong and sincere in their defense of the Constitution (which is the true job of the President), and their quest for peace in the world, can go ahead and say what they think and people will follow.
Sorry, but it is not being a leftist to say that the 4th Amendment should be applied. It might even be being a true conservative :)

The kind of wiggliness seen lately in Obama, is unfortunately deja vu. It reminds me of not only Bill Clinton, but also unfortunately John Kerry.
I wish Obama would go back to the enlightenment of his Philadelphia speech, and his Miami speech. Now, he is sounding more and more like Hillary as he is inheriting her advisors. It is heartbreaking, but also a little bit scary for the election.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. we have to be engaged with the campaign.
We may be ignored or not heard, but better that than not trying at all.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
22. I think it's fair to tell someone we hire what we want done.
After all, HE works for US, right? :shrug:

I find myself without much patience for lemmings that merely follow the odor. :eyes:
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. we're interrupting today's unitygasm, you know.
;-)
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. Over the years, DU has gotten even more 'messenger' instead of 'message.'
Edited on Fri Jun-27-08 02:14 PM by TahitiNut
It's really quite remarkable, imho. The 'discussion' regarding the FISA legislation has been about 1% content and 99% character assassination. The most typical DU response to a critique of a politician's position has been to attack the DUer rather than discuss the issues. Posts containing snark or an abundance of the word 'you" outnumber issue-related posts by about 40-to-1. Nonetheless, I keep looking for the pony.

As a life-long independent liberal, I regard the partisan attitudes bizarre ... people acting as though they're PR flacks instead of employers of public servants. The hyper-partisanship serves only to bury reasoned discourse in a cacophony of mindless ranting.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. heh - it has, hasn't it?
The pony is dead! Long live the pony!
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Lord Helmet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
27. Obama is tough to pigeon hole.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. this is true.
A large part of me doesn't entirely trust the "beyond partisanship" thing ("third way", anyone?), but I'm willing to find out what it entails.
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IndianaJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
36. The American people prefer a centrist...the fringe on both sides is unacceptable. nt.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. really? we've had RW fringe for nearly eight years.
And anyway, to paraphrase Elvis Costello, what's so funny about outsourcing and the poor?
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. Plus 12 years of the vilest, most extreme Congress under Tom DeLay
Edited on Fri Jun-27-08 02:40 PM by depakid
that made statements and behaved in ways that ought to have made ANY rational person's hair stand on end.

Yet despite this they were repeatedly re-elected.

That is, until 2006, when Dems suspended (briefly) their tireless efforts to portray themselves as Republican lite.
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #38
51. THANK YOU.
if Bush could push through the most vile RW policies, then there is no reason we can't nudge Obama to make his presidency the most PROGRESSIVE. I agree with the "at any cost people" in one way...he needs to pursue policies that actually work, that benefit the poor, that ease the strain on the middle class, AT ANY COST. At any cost does NOT mean pander to the right to get elected!

My Dream List:

-Universal Healthcare
-Massive Shift of Commercial Shipping to Trains
-Scrap NAFTA
-Ending Corn Ethanol Subsidies
-Sweeping Environmental Protections
-A Smart Immigration Plan including Protections and Wage Controls for Immigrant Workers and Conditional Visa Programs; Stiff Fines for Employers Exploiting; A Sane Trade Policy with Mexico
-Provide Massive Public Funding for Public Transportation Systems, including more Amtrack routes
-Provide FREE COLLEGE TUITION to State Schools just like every other fucking "civilized" country on this planet
-Create Quality Trade Schools for Students to Have a Choice
-Provide Incentives for Food Distributors to Provide Locally Grown Crops over Internationally Shipped Produce
-Repeal No Child Left Behind
-Repeal the More Sinister Provisions of Patriot Act(s) and FISA
-Take away Corporate "Personhood" and Create Greater Oversight into Corporate Actions

OK I'm getting tired and I haven't even gotten to grade schools...

If Obama manages to do one or more of these things WELL, he will have made a believer out of me. However, I have been roasted into a fairly hard-shelled cynic by politics in this country.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #38
62. And 80% finally oppose it
but turn right around and support McCain because he's a true centrist and straight-shooter - while they label Obama and you let it happen because it's more important that you stomp your feet than fight for your candidate.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #62
75. I let what happen? I control the media???
Damn, but I'm cool! "Media," I say, "truthfully cover the effects of welfare reform!" And behold! They do!

Please.

If you'll breathe for a second and reread the OP, you'll find me both 1) pointing out that Obama is centrist and 2) stating my support for the man in a variety of ways.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #36
54. America elected people who Dwight Eisenhower and traditional Republicans would have considered
Edited on Fri Jun-27-08 03:24 PM by Douglas Carpenter
extremist fringe in the years 1980, 1984, 2000 and 2004 and in those same years the Democratic candidates would have been establishment candidates who were from the center.

Then from 1994 until 2006 they continually reelected a Congress lead by radical, bat-shit crazy extremist running against a party lead mostly by centrist.
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QueenOfCalifornia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #36
64. Nice progressive attitude
everyone jump to the middle. No one should be a real liberal any more.... it may offend the republican neighbors.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
37. Well Said, My Friend!
As this had not yet garnered even one recommendation, though it deserves many, I have given it one....
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. brother, I appreciate that more than you may know.
Thank you. I regard it highly, given the source and our tendency to disagree at times on strategy. :)
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. Constructive Criticism, Sir, Is Important: It Is Valuable
The basic principle underlying democracy is that of the old Anglican divine: "Deem it not impossible for you to err." If people do not speak up, the right answer may not appear, and error solidify to disaster.

In my view, the thing to be borne in mind is the distinction between criticism that has focus on specifics and criticism that simply disparages generally. The first sort can lead to a meeting of minds, and end perhaps in agreement; the second sort is just the verbal equivalent of fisticuffs, and like a fist-fight, can end only with someone on the ground or in headlong flight. We need more of the first sort, and have an over-abundance of the second.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #45
82. indeed.
Well said, as always.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
43. When McCain wins, pat yourself on the back
I won't let you get away with blaming the candidate this time.

And his merit pay? Yeah, for teachers who work in difficult areas, like you did. Wouldn't it have been nice if you'd been recognized for the challenge you took? Or advanced degrees? Or other efforts you make to become the best teacher you can be? Should it ALL be based on seniority and nothing more?

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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #43
52. Oy vey
:eyes:
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #52
61. Yeah, you too
They're already saying Obama isn't as strong a candidate as predicted, the youth are warming up to McCain, the women won't come back - let's just pile on and help them. Like so many people did last time. Including you.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #61
71. Some criticisms are totally valid, and Obama will win either way.
Edited on Fri Jun-27-08 04:15 PM by Forkboy
the youth are warming up to McCain

Yeah, that's gonna happen. :eyes:

the women won't come back

They will and they are already. Next?

Like so many people did last time. Including you.

I never piled on Kerry, and rarely, and I mean very rarely criticized him when he running in the GE. I have tremendous respect for him, and love having him as my Senator. Nice try.

Similarly, I have barely said anything negative about Obama this time around, and if you noticed I was defending him early and often against attacks from the right, and attacks from Hillary supporters. It's clear that the merest hint of criticism sets you off and sets your world spinning off it's axis.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #43
70. oh ulysses...you're making mccain win
Edited on Fri Jun-27-08 04:05 PM by noiretblu
by posting a thread on DUH U :eyes:
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. it's amazing the power I have, isn't it?
:D :hi:
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. yep...amazing
you are (almost) as power as clenis :hi:
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #76
81. there's a comparison I might have done without.
:D
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #43
74. easy there, killer.
I won't let you get away with blaming the candidate this time.

Put away the white hat and reread the OP.

Wouldn't it have been nice if you'd been recognized for the challenge you took? Or advanced degrees? Or other efforts you make to become the best teacher you can be?

Sure, and as I've said, when someone finds a fair way to do it, let me know. I'll be all in.
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Median Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
47. No Worries - Don't Think Big Media Will Allow Obama To Be Elected In Any Event
For all the complaining, which is heavily directed at the Democrats (notice MSNBC dis-unity coverage today), the fact of the matter is that Big Media is going to make those you on the left, middle and right, hate Obama. So, complain all you want, and behave as though Obama is going to win. Big media is not going to allow it, and they may even have you believe that it isn't so bad that he lost like some Democats thoughts it was not too bad that Gore lost to Bush, since Bush was compassionate and all, while Gore was just corporate shill.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Sen. Obama is going to win, and probably by comfortable margin. You just wait and see!!
Edited on Fri Jun-27-08 03:10 PM by Douglas Carpenter
And I say that as someone who supports Sen. Obama in spite of recognizing that Sen. Obama is indeed a centrist who holds some positions I am less than 100% comfortable with.

Media bias and smears can only really work effectively as a reinforcement of prejudices. They cannot convince a person that the sky is green when they can look up in the air and see that it is blue.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
48. 100% agree!! If one is a paid employee of the Obama campaign or even a volunteer representing the
Obama campaign or a consultant of some sort, whether paid or unpaid who was providing service to the Obama campaign - proper form would perhaps require that one defend every aspect of Sen. Obama's positions and every decision of the campaign - unless Sen. Obama himself or the senior managers of his campaign changed their position and issued an appropriate statement.

But as an amateur and a private citizen who supports Sen. Obama, it would not just be unrequired of me to support things I don't support and say things I don't believe - it wouldn't just be disingenuous of me to support things I don't support and say things I don't believe - it would be down right unpersuasive and ineffectual.

NORMAL PEOPLE tend to get quite turned off by true believers spouting a narrow partisan line when they know the person spouting this drivel doesn't even believe what they are saying.

When I can sincerely tell people why I am supporting Sen. Obama for President of the United States even though I don't agree with every word he says or every position he holds or every action of his campaign - that certainly in my experience, is a hell of lot more persuasive than mindlessly repeating a bunch of prefab lines that I don't believe.

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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
50. This is why it's ludicrous that Conservatives are now calling him the mostest liberalest ever
Gee, I thought our LAST candidate was the most liberalest ever in the history of Democratic candidates. It's ludicrous that Conservatives I know are calling him a Communist, Marxist, etc.

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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
53. Happy to be the fifth rec.
:thumbsup:
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. I was no 4 so thank me too ;) I should have just waited a few minutes! n/t
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. Well, that's true. I couldn't be number 5 without a number 4.
Not if I remember this guy's lessons correctly.



:)
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
83. I think that by doing that you're not only NOT damaging his campaign
I think you're helping his campaign.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. that's my take as well.
Not everyone sees it that way, of course...
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