To all the purists

I'm as liberal as you are however I'm not stupid enough or arrogant enough to believe that the rest of the country agrees with my interpertation or takes the time I do to follow everything. We didn't get to where we are overnight and we aren't going to get where we want to be overnight either. I'm willing to take the small steps to my principles and not worry about trying to make a giant leap to someone who agrees with me 100% (if that will ever happen). We didn't start with W. It was a long disciplined march by the right taking baby steps and small victories along the way by our opponents. It will take as long of a disciplined march on our part biting our toungues at times to get to where we want to be. Our enemy is patient and diabolical and we have to be every bit as cunning as they are.

Any democrat is better than John Sydney McCain. If you can't see that and enthusiastically support the party I feel sorry for you. If this FISA thing has made you crazy bitter and angry I feel sorry for you and after the past 8 years if you can't understand politics is being played right now I feel sorry for you. If you can't understand this bill means alot different under a democrat than under John Sydney McCain than I feel sorry for you.

This is the last I have to say. I will not be arguing or debating you any further. I don't care about you or your foolish ideas and lack of understanding of the past 30 years.

Cut your nose off to spite your face I don't care.

One last thing. Search for critism on McCain's website of his policies or an organized group angry about a decision he made. Than look how Obama handled people disagreeing with him on Fisa at MyBo. He or his campaign can delete that group at any time. He leaves it there because he doesn't believe that dissent is a bad thing. He understands he isn't perfect and isn't right all the time and recognizes his own humanity. However he can't win a war fighting two flanks. He can't fight the left and the right at the same time and win. If you can't enthusiastically support him after that....God or whatever force there is have mercy on you.

What many here don't realize is that there is approximately 30% of the population that would never consider Obama simply because of his race. It could be higher.

That means that of the 70% left Obama must win approximately 75% of the remaining open minded people.


Regardless of how badly McCain is as a candidate it is very difficult to get 75% of any large group.


Moreover the media wants to win. I don't think they want McCain to win but that they want to be more popular than any of the candidates. To that end they will be entirely focused on the most favorite and try and beat him down. If they can beat him down far enough they will win regardless of which party wins the White House.

Despite the favorable polling now, the odds are stacked against us. Victory is far from assured.

its about a problem we have with our party. Substitute Obama with Clinton and we'd be having the same problems. If she won after a month to collect my disapointment I'd be at doors and on the phones giving money and wearing her logo because I know what's at stake and the same thing can be said for any democrat running.

I know the other side. I grew up raised in it and only after coming of age could break out of it. I recently broke my mother somewhat out of it but she isn't fully there yet. Our problem is discipline and an inability to put small differences aside during election years. Say what you want about the GOP they know how to rally the base and convince the center they are ok at the same time. Our problem is if we even try to open a conversation with the center our base feels like a neglected step child and acts crazy.

The sad thing is some people here believe that their principles are served better with a dignified loss than an ok win.

are much more unified and enthusiastic than DU


but your OP defines the problem with a single word: arrogance.

Successful political movments require a certain degreee of discipline to be successful.


The only reason that we have the tone that we have here is because people feel that the election is in the bag and they are under the dellusion that they are now in the business of providing advice to the president-elect.

like 2000 where they took things for granted. History repeats itself unless we learn from it. Who thought Chimpy was going to win after all Gore had going for him.

I'm looking forward to this new Flax Cereal that I bought.

I've been eating Kashi Shredded Wheat type stuff which is awesome, but I think this new Flax Seed Cereal is going to be tasty.

Plus, I give a good dose of Milled Flax Seed on top of my cereal, so I'm totally getting the dietary fiber boost my colon craves.

I made bran muffins on Sunday, so a couple of those will make it's way through, too.

So, anyways, I wish mercy on you, too or whatever you said there at the end of your speech.

that a friend made for me after that. I eat eggs and bacon for breakfast.

:kick: and REC'D!!!

I take that as a very high compliment. I want to print your response and frame it :-)

:toast:

Clarity is missing. And I am the bad guy for posting honestly about what we are doing.

Just people who understand what's going on and people who don't.

The forum is being silenced gradually.

I may have to leave soon unless I am willing to be silent about things that matter.

Listen I'm no happier about this vote than the people going crazy over it. However I understand what will be said and his vote was not the vote that passed it or even stopped a filabuster. This was going to pass. I understand what he did I don't agree with it but I understand. It doesn't make me support him any less. I know the enemy and I know this is going to be battle for 1-2% of the country at the end.

I said I may have to leave. It won't be by choice. It will be because dissenting voices are silenced.

the purpose of the forum is to elect the Democratic President - what precisely is your dissent from that?

I am not trying to hurt Obama, I am trying to be honest about what our party is doing.

If you want me to leave this forum, alert.

Please do.

Maybe the mods are tired of me as well....and I just be asked to leave, period.

the purpose of this forum is to center discussion on electing the Democratic Nominee the next President of the United States.

The FISA bill has already passed and is no longer being debated for a vote.

So my question is - what is it that you are dissenting from


1) Selection of Obama as the nominee?

2) His election as President of the United States?

I am speaking up against what our party is doing, caving in to a pathetic president, giving him everything he wants. Do a search overseas...the world is astonished at the power we gave him.

I think Obama will make a fine president, but he should not get a free pass anymore than any other Democrats who rip apart the constitution.

approached the political discussion as a litigant giving no quarter and fighting a battle as if it were in court rather than taking the broader view and educating the public on the strengths and weakenesses of the compromise legislation.


As you know other voices have finally be heard and whether or not you accept the legislation as a good or bad thing it has been shown that it is certainly not a capitulation. While it may be in the interests of those with a polemical point of view to continue to suggest that there is only one acceptable point of view possible on the subject it is not very condusive to a discussion forum and you are not going to persuade many people of your point of view when you hold to the position that it is "ripping apart the constitution. I have presented the arguments of folks with outstanding ACLU, academic and national security credentials that say that is simply nonsense.

Now you are entitled to your viewpoint that it is a bad compromise. But if you continue to hold that it is the only position and that anyother position is "capitulation" and "ripping apart the constitution" then we have nothing to talk about on this subject. You are unwilling to make any of the reasonable concessions that discussion mandates, for example that it is possible to hold a different opinion and have the same degree of regard for the constitution.

As for overseas I worked in the diplomatic arena at a fairly senior level for almost 10 years and have lived overseas continuously for 20 before returning to the United States. Travelling under a UN passport I was the first American to re enter Vietnam after the war.



Generally speaking foreigners do not understand how we divide political power because virtually all other countries use a parlimentary system that combines executive and legislative power. When a leader loses political power they don't wait until the end of a term but call for elections and vote in a new leader and that leader has wide authority. What checks and balances do exist in a parlimnetary system is in the hands of the bureacracy, the Permanent Secretaries who actually run the different Ministeries while the Cabinet officer gives strategic gudiance. Most well informed foreign observers do not understand and cannot believe that we have an ongoing system of government that actually divides power between branches of government. The overall trend is to for them to believe that it is all conspiracy. In any case they would not believe that the FISA court or the Congress would be given expanded power as the compromise bill does, they would simply vote out the Prime Minister and give the unified power to the new leader.

As for foreign countries you would be hard pressed to find any country that has gone into such a detailed effort as the United States to define the restrictions the government has on 'terrorist survelliance'. England the government can wiretap without any court action and does so at a rate of one wire tap every few seconds. Other countries have similar liberties when it comes to terrorist investigations. In the Netherlands the police just wiretap who ever they want.




Since there is no more FISA votes to dissent from I am left with same question what is it you are dissenting in GDP with your future threads on FISA? Are you dissenting the nomination of Senator Obama? His election? His platform?

call Obama about the FISA vote--but not our own Senators?

When I suggested that that was a productive strategy I was shouted down. I think that's where we are talking past each other--Obama isn't in the Senate alone and he holds no leadership position there.

I'm trying to understand but the Obama obsession regarding FISA confuses me, it really does.

some of the meanest posts attacking those who shed light and truth on unpleasant subjects. All objectivity has been lost, I'm afraid.

I mean I like noodles. Ramen Noodles are OK and a cheap meal but I love Angel Hair Pasta!! :9

People are absolutely correct in that the FISA bill was a steaming pile 'o shit. But even Feingold says it's fixable, the numbers were just not there for a filibuster, and knowing that I think Obama made the right move. I know people vehemently disagree with that, but he's now waist-deep in the general campaign. He has to win. I want him to win. The alternatives is unthinkable.

This was purely strategic and anybody that has read his books would know it's not ideologic, and that not too fine point matters. I know people are genuinely PO'd (trolls not so genuinely) and I think rather than beating each other up for not reacting the same way, we should deal with this organically like adults and stop acting like asshole freeper-fools.

that because I won't shoot at my own general I agree with him on everything. I know the game that is being played right now. I also know what is at stake.

I know EXACTLY what you mean.

:patriot:

That's the 3-P tenant I just made up.

?

:shrug:

I don't know you well enough...but if you're asking, the answer is probably, "no."

:hi:

...when it comes to matters concerning the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

"You can take a position and be a purist and sort of sit around yelling at each across the divide and nothing gets done,” Hoyer said. “The American people, they want us to get this done. That’s the whole thing to me.”

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/2274

Actually no, most of the American people did not give a damn.

than alot of people on here and know the work you have done.

I will never shy away from a debate with you or call you a purist. If there was an Obama campaign in Florida for the primaries I know you'd have a contact to talk to and you wouldn't feel the way you do now.

What is wrong with questioning?

but my questioning will be November 5th. The only questioning I do is to campaign staff on strategy on the ground for my city because I've lived here for 20 years and know it.

this year it is purist

Ok Lucy


Keep taking things for granted ok

I have not decided. From 2003:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/62

while the enemy laughs. Think about that.

?

I learned something from my GOP father. They bitch during the off years but close ranks during election years. You speak up during the primaries. After that you go to the guy with the dance. If Hillary won after a month of self healing I'd be at her campaign headquarters saying how can I help.

?

What was his vote in the senate.

Could he have organized a filabuster while running a national campaign starting 7 votes behind in organizing it? Could he have prevented the bill? Could his vote for a bill that was going to pass anyway be used against him to paint him a terrorist lover?

they are going to attack him no matter what. Or did you miss the flip< a flopper comments starting early this morning on Morning Joe and spreading to the other networks?[br />
I guess flip flopper is better then.

When you lay with copperheads, they will byte you anyhow

is used to legitimize it.

are people having a problem comprehending?

However, this is not addressed to people who are actively working for the campaign but have misgivings about some policy positions. This is to people who are quitting or have never had any intention on helping the candidate.

Trust me privately I have plenty of issues sometimes however I'm a Sergant in this army and I act like a good Sergant and hope they know what they are doing and after November I'll be a civilian again and they will hear from me often if they don't deliver.

but E-4 are not above obeying illegal orders

So if your idea is that of an E-4... the analogy just fell flat

And as to quitting or closing your wallets, that is a decision that each person has to make

You cannot make it for me, nor can I make it for you

In the end it is a moral decision

The war in Iran is on your head not mine.

I'll sleep soundly at night knowing I did everything I could to prevent it.

and I hate to point another fact, it will start, BEFORE the next president takes over... like SOMALIA

Or have you missed all the bluster and escalation and tit for tat?

that was a given there

You telling me that democrats should behave like republicans then?

WOW! I Missed that memo

Free clue, so did Obama... who told you LAST WEEK, that people were FREE TO DISAGREE with him.

You missed that memo?

Look at my sig

and tell me who has won the war. Say what you want about the other side. They have kicked our ass. Is the country more left or more right than it was 30 years ago.

I'm not calling for us to act this way all the time or even exactly similar. Just to be more united and tolerant during elections and understand that we need the center and the uniformed who vote for stupid reasons to win.

and truman got it by the way

When you act like a republican, the people tend to vote republican

Going to the mythical center tends to loose elections.

Read George Lakoff on the subject

have acted like a GOPer. Honestly, I'm not calling for us to adopt GOP policies but GOP discipline in election years.

We are the party of herding cats and its our biggest problem.

you truly need to

We can start by FRAMING and we suck at it

You have to be different.

Mondale and Dukakis acted like them?

Kerry acted like them? My GOP family thought he was the anti-christ from his positions.

How do you explain Bill Clinton?

for many years. Read the book by David Brock...the Republican Noise Machine.

The word "liberal" became such a terrible word that Dean once said it could no longer be rehabilitated.

fits me well thank you

And I do the latte drinking and have the college degree to boot

We singlehandedly made Kerry lose, according to many people here last election.

but that intiative pushed by the GOP on marriage did cost us Ohio or made it close enough to be stolen.

I'm sorry some people are bigotted and I'll stand up for your right to marry. I lived in that area of the country and that is an example of their evil. We need to start doing things like they do during election years.

In fact, this time we have initiatives that not only ban same-sex marriage but also give state money to church schools. They are truly pulling out all the stops to get the fanatics to turn out.

We need to start fighting like they do with issues that people care about just as much but will draw out our base...and we have to convince our base Nader isn't an option when they come out.

Abortion, same-sex marriage and guns assume the importance that they do because there are relatively few differences between the parties when it comes to economics, the so-called "kitchen table issues." If both parties favor shipping your job out of the country, but one of them at least pretends to respect your values, you will probably go with the latter. This whole "centrism" thing is killing us as a party. It's time to get back to our roots.

if we loose this, it will be due to that hard turn to the "center"

Though I expect to get blamed for it

After all I dared to ahem, be critical

I believed that this was the Progressive Moment and yet we are now doing the same old centrist routine.

I don't know

Me... at this point will become an observer.

I know that if the worst happens, I will probably pull back from national politics


No use mostly

whether the ruling class (and their smiling front men) want them or not.

We have built an entire society on cheap oil, and now cheap oil is over. An entire generation now knows that it will not do as well as its parents. The currency is dropping in value like a rock. Big changes are in the pipeline, whether we like it or not.

those who prevent peaceful revolutions assure the violent ones

discussion and criticism. Of course those that tell you that you are stifling the discussion, that you are trying to shut down speech are the same folks telling you that you don't have a right to tell them a thing, they tell you that you don't have a right to disagree with them. It's a mad little game of "you shut up, no you".

I've never said that anyone shouldn't criticize, I've only challenged their criticism with the facts and the truth. That is how I thought debates worked, how discussions were had.

But what do I know, I'm now considered a paid operative because I dare to challenge the conventional thinking of many and the limited thinking of a few.

:shrug:

However after this post and discussing this I will no longer be discussing it again. I will use my free speach and my DU feature of Ignore.

criticize the criticism by saying folks are trying to shut down discussion are just being silly. If I don't want my opinions scrutinized I have a choice - I don't have to post them.

If I offended you I do apologize.

I come here to blow of steam and share campaign stories. Fighting my own party after today is no longer an interest of mine till after November 5th.

I don't have the energy and my energy is better served on the campaign and at my real work.

Thank you for working for the campaign and for the perspectives you share with us here.

I have no problem being a vocal critic of an Obama Administration. There has to be a win first before I can do that and I don't feel like another 4 years of my voice not mattering what so ever or my ideals being polar opposite of the executive branch.

First things first, we have to get him in office. Then we can hold his feet to the fire, my gut tells me we won't have to but if we do, we will.

The primaries in 2012 will be a reverse of what he did. Grassroots taking him out.

However first things first.

The body of voters and activists who have done more to propel him to the position he now enjoys? Is that supposed to make us happy?

You just weren't reading his books or paying attention. Sorry if you feel you were duped but he was who he says he was.

If you're going to calll folks arrogant and stupid, at least get your own FACTS straight.

the principled side of me is disgusted with my pragmatic side altogether. I'll vote for the guy, but don't expect me to be happy about it.

The issues purists, the party purists, the Obama purists, or the "winning elections is the only goal" purists?

Do you just oppose "purism," or are you speaking to only one kind of "purist?"

eom