Why Is It Most Of America Loves These Guys - But Not Barack Obama?......

Jackie Robinson



Jim Brown



Muhammad Ali



Michael Jordan



Tiger Woods



I just don't understand why it's alright for American's to be fans of black sports personalities - yet - not vote for Obama because he's black.

clean it but you can't come through the front door.

That's why he's ahead.

Dunno what the OP is talking about.

That's why he won the primes.

As long as they stay away from the women.

Do realize I speak in generalizations on behalf of "most Americans" per your question.

At least that's my take on it.

:shrug:

Acknowledging that a black man is talented and/or entertaining is much easier than accepting him as an equal and deferring to him as a leader.

But I think it's an attitude not uncommon among older generations and rural folk.

What do those people have to do with Barack Obama?

Are you saying we love them BECAUSE they're black? Are you saying a) that Americans don't love Obama and b) those that don't love him feel that way because he's black?

I find the whole premise pretty obnoxious and offensive.

yes - they might have struggled early on in their careers to be accepted - but they broke through. I put them out here as examples and some (like Jackie Robinson) breaking new ground.

My God - this is the 21st Century. Why all this talk of 'race' being thrown around by MSM and why are so many American's so afraid of a 'black' president?

I'm sorry to all of you for me going here - but I was blown away by a longtime friend today that won't vote for Obama because he's black - and I'm devastated. I can understand not voting for him because one doesn't like what he stands for. But this - I just don't understand.

That's what caused me to go the route of the black sports figures that have become everyday idols.

If people can cheer for them - why can't they cheer for an Obama.

Now I see that some of the posts here are saying there is a lot of love out there for Obama. But I'm beginning to think that their might not be enough to go around and that the Repugs will persist and perhaps steal their way into the WH again. And MSM doesn't seem to be helping - particularly over the last few days - where some are blaming Obama for injecting race into the (no pun intended) race.

Why do you believe that to be the case?

And you ask why if we can cheer for Tiger, why not everyone cheers for Obama - it presumes that anybody who opposes Obama does so because they're racists. That's insane. Roughly half the country won't vote for a Democrat - of any color.

I think turning everything into a race-argument is a losing strategy. First, because it's just wrong and second, because it plays right into stereotypes of liberals.

Its easy to support a black or female president when its just a hypothetical. But the closer we get to a reality, the more it challenges people's true sense of fairness.

Look, I agree that everything is not about race. Sometimes the black guy might not be as good, for an obvious reason.

But the results in Appalachia that just overhwhelmingly went for Clinton just scream racial prejudice. It would have been different if Obama lost by single digit margins. He lost BIG in those states.

that Clinton better appealed to the concerns of those people.

Many Obama supporters, at least here on DU, have shown an incredible amount of disdain for working class people. If that perception was felt elsewhere, then maybe the problem isn't with the voters.

Again, you presume that when black people voted for Obama, the reasons were true and noble, but when white people voted for Clinton, it was because of racism. That's unfair, and it's stupid.

With these people there was undoubtely a racial component. You cannot deny it.

free of a racial component, but white people voting for Clinton is racist?

than in other states.

Lots of blacks are voting for Obama because they feel a kinship to him. But if push came to shove, they would vote for Hillary in large numbers. Yes, there is a racial component, but it is benign in nature.

In 1960 poor WVers could still point to spots Eleanor Roosevelt stood as if it had been the day before. So, JFK won WV over Nixon only because he got FDR jr. out stomping for him, Big Time.

Just as urban black voters associate help with black figures - that's why there are a lot of black mayors.

It's racial, and it isn't.

Obama got a solid majority of the male vote through most of the campaign. Let's talk about that too.

will vote for Obama in large numbers.

You're not proving anything. You're simply stating absurd things.

Don't you know that? :sarcasm:

I agree completely with you. I live in Utah. I'm surrounded by Republicans. I'm related to Republicans. They don't like Obama, but it has nothing to do with the color of his skin, and to say that that's the main reason that Obama isn't leading by 90% in the polls is just insane and delusional. These Republicans don't like Obama because of his correct stances on issues. They'd oppose Hillary just as strongly, or John Edwards, or anyone with a (D) after their name.

I think that because there is SO much enthusiasm for Obama on our side, and because we're SO eager for change after 8 years of Shrub, we are tending to be amazed that there are others who don't feel the same as we. And it's easy to demonize of ascribe negative motives to people with whom you disagree completely.

*DEMOCRATS* who:

1. Voted for Hillary (& maybe other white Demos in the past)
2. Said that Race was Important in their selection
3. Stated that they would *NOT* vote for Barack if he was the only choice

Are not motivated by racism? In Kentucky, 47% of the people who voted Hillary fit this profile (see my post in this thread with the CNN statistics).

This is the first time a black Candidate is the nominee. Its for REAL this time. You are going to see behaviors & attitudes you thought had subsided, but are still there under the surface.

Thank you.

Hardworking, "white people" the same way that every time they've discussed women during this run they conveniently forget that there are black women.

It looks like the narration of this presidential run will go this way:

Working class = White
women = White
Black = voting on racial lines (despite years of evidence to the contrary)
Being Black = "playing the race card"
PUMA != racist (despite evidence to the contrary)

This is going to be a long, ugly three months.

Regards

but this sub-discussion was specifically about the appalachian states, and the white voters therein.

when Blacks usually vote in a majority for all previous Democratic candidates. Blacks are also working class people it has nothing to do with race.

and the claim that their vote was necessarily racist. It's stupid.

that didnt hurt a bit

Massachusetts by more than 16 points, and in 2006 we elected the country's 2nd ever African American Governor. Are we racist because we voted for Senator Clinton?

easy question - just take out Obama.

Why can some Americans accept Black's as successful entertainers or sportsmen, but not as potential political leaders in America?

It presumes that people who oppose Obama only do so because of racism. Couldn't it simply be because they're Republicans?

It also presumes that Obama has a problem with white voters. I've seen no evidence of that.

candidate, they'd be right behind him or her. Their opposition is ideological, it's not racial.

I agree that the OP questioned why the majority of Americans have a problem with Obama, but does not put forward any evidence to back that, but I still think we're trying to hard to nail the OP on something.

The better question, in my mind, would be stated as this - Why do Americans with a racial bias seem to have an easier time handling that bias when dealing with entertainers, than with elected leaders?

Would you agree?

Jackie Robinson was hated and reviled when his career started,

Muhammad Ali was hated to the point that there is some speculation that people tried to poison the water in his Kentucky training facility, which MIGHT explain his Parkinsons...

They both had death threats throughout their careers.

Athletes that integrated other sports, later, had it easier.

Obama is just the Jackie Robinson of the Presidental races. He is first.

There are people in this country who STILL hate Ali and always will.

Ali was a hell of a fighter and a man, but he was way ahead of his time. And it took a long time before the country caught up with him.

Jackie Robinson??? He was REVILED when he started.

I grew up in Kansas, but had never really heard the N word much - my folks certainly didn't use it. It was in all the papers at the time. Really horrible - they thought there was going to be a riot.

i never heard that about KY
i always hear
he was a boxer of course his head is messed up

but i saw ali fight a lot and he didnt take head shots
when he did it was usually about a round later he would end the fight
he used to talk about how "pretty"he was due to that very aspect of his style

and Mohammed Ali, as I recall.

I'm as much of a Chicken Little as anyone else on this message board. I've been positively frantic this past week worrying about the racial-sexual politics of Paris Hilton, the theological implications of Moses, and the sampling methods of Gallup.

But really, in my lucid moments, I'll admit that I believe Obama is going to win big (knock wood). I predict he's going to win Indiana and Virginia and North Dakota(!). And that's because I think America is really good country and we're ready for this. That makes me proud.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but regardless of who Gallup may have asked, I am pretty sure neither Paris Hilton nor Moses have a valid government issued Green Card! It staggers the mind to think what Lou Dobbs could do with such information!
I AM chknltl and I approved of this snark.

They are wealthy, yes but not involved in decisions that affect the average American. Muhammad Ali is probably one of the safest Black guys to like followed by Tiger Woods; all you have to do is watch them perform, turn off the TV and not think about them until the next performance. With Obama, he will be the leader of the free world and a symbol of our great nation. I'm sure many never thought they'd live to see it, so it can be a bit of a shock. All I can say is get used to it.

we've come a long way and you would think that that hatred is over. All of these guys have become icons today. Haven't we as Americans learned? Or is it that every ground breaking black (Obama becoming the first black president) has to go through a period of hatred first before acceptance?

Now granted I know that not all Americans feel this way - but - after my experience today with a long-time friend - I'm beginning to think that there might be enough Americans out there that feel the same way he does and we'll lose the WH in November as a result.

and I don't believe that much progress has been made. Some, but not enough.

The shit they and others put up with. Ew.

Zirin's book "Say My Name" (or similar) is excellent on this.

But hate these guys? (hint. I'm not making anymore sense then you are) :shrug:

believe "race played a major role" in their vote.

That's a lot of racists.

Someone upthread spoke of the underlying fears that contribute to racism. I remember reading a study years ago that dissected the causes of white flight. The authors interviewed people who sold their homes, often at a loss, to beat tracks when their neighborhoods started becoming multi-cultural. Typically folks said they were leaving because the schools were bad, yet statistics didn't substantiate that.

Pointed questioning eventually extracted the real reason: Fathers were afraid their daughters would hook up with black boys.

Ignorance, folks. It's out there and there is no reasoning with it.

Was it 20% of white people didn't vote for him because he was black? How about black voters who voted for him because he was black?

It's far too facile to turn everything about this campaign a race issue.

-Barack is black (effectively)
-Hillary is white

You're white and vote for Hillary.

On your way out of the polls, you are asked the socially delicate question of whether race played a part in your selection.

You say yes, possibly without hesitation.

So, what can you conclude from this knowing the myriad of other reaons they could have voted for Hillary and admitted to.

And one other point.

It irks me when people bring up the fact that black people voting for Barack in large numbers indicates some kind of racial discrimination.

We have been voting for non-black candidates our entire lives with nary a complaint. Now a truly viable black candidate with exceptional qualities has a real chance of winning. Its not only a sense of pride that makes us vote for him in large numbers, it's common sense.

The difference in the primaries is that black voters by and large did not vote AGAINST Hillary. They voted FOR Barack. And you better beleive that if he had lost there would also have been no stupid PUMA-like blowback you're getting now. We know how to fall in line behind the Democrats.

What percentage of the black vote did Obama get? Was that racist? Why should I believe YOUR premise that black people voted FOR Obama, but white people voted AGAINST him?

I think it's a huge mistake to turn everything into a race issue in this campaign.

I will try to see if they have it archvied somewhere on their website.

Results of Kentucky Primary:
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/state/#KY --> final results
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/epolls/#KYDEM --> exit poll questions

Click on the arrow at the bottom of the page to flip through the pages of different exit poll questions. The race question is on the 4th page I think. 21% said that the race of the candidate was an important issue for them and within that 21% group, 81% of them voted for Clinton. Overall, Clinton won by a huge margin: 65% to 30%.

For a similar lopsided result where race played a major factor, see West Virginia:

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/state/#WV
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/epolls/#WVDEM

What percentage of those voters voted for Obama because he was black?

You seem to be arguing that racism is to blame for white people voting for Clinton, but not for black people voting for Obama.

That's just silly. And again, I think it would be a huge mistake to make everything a racial issue in this campaign. Some here claim the Britney/Paris ad is racist - I think that's absurd, and I'm glad Obama is Obama is smarter than many of his supporters here.

Again:
"
We have been voting for non-black candidates our entire lives with nary a complaint. Now a truly viable black candidate with exceptional qualities has a real chance of winning. Its not only a sense of pride that makes us vote for him in large numbers, it's common sense.

The difference in the primaries is that black voters by and large did not vote AGAINST Hillary. They voted FOR Barack. And you better beleive that if he had lost there would also have been no stupid PUMA-like blowback you're getting now. We know how to fall in line behind the Democrats.
"

And for the record, I don't think the Britney/Paris thing was racist. And not every white person in KY or WV that voted against Barack did so because he was black. But I'd be willing to bet that most of them did.

because that's such an idiotic statement that it's not worthy of more discussion. MOST of the people who voted for Clinton in those states did so because they're racists?

Isn't it just possible that they actually PREFERRED Clinton?

Your view of the world is so skewed that it's not worth continuing this.

if Clinton didn't get the nomination.

Only 50% of those dems. who voted in the KY primary said they would vote for Obama in the General. 32% would go to McCain and 15% would sit it out. That's 47% who at least at that time wouldn't support the black guy who stood for a lot of the stuff Hillary did.

So, is that still PREFERENCE? That they'd still go for the white guy even if he's in another party and with a vastly different agenda?

your refusal to discuss it right?

I remember having this discussion and you still have you head in the sand oh so many months later. Could it be that your real refusal has more to do with the comment hitting a bit too close to home than anyone else's world view?

Regards

No, it has to do with the absurdity of the premise.

If you decry everything as racism, it becomes pointless to discuss it anymore. It's a pat answer, a cheap facile explanation requiring no thought, no insight.

black people, who factor race in their vote, do not vote for Obama because they hate white people, because they have voted for whites their entire lives. But the whites who vote for Hillary because of race do so because they DO hate black people.

"About one in five whites in Kentucky said race played a role in choosing their candidate — on par with results in other Southern states. Nearly nine in 10 of that group backed Clinton — the highest proportion yet among the 28 states where that question has been asked.

Only three in 10 whites in the state who said race was a factor said they would vote for Obama should he oppose McCain in November." (bolding mine)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24736399/

The majority of whites who said race was a factor in their decision wouldn't vote for Obama if he was the last Dem on earth.

You can pretend all day long that isn't racist but it doesn't change the fact.

It is one thing to admire an entertainer and athlete from afar. It's another to put your trust & well being into another. To be led and represented by them.

If you believe that deep down, you are superior to people "like him" by your very genetics, it's hard to make that leap.

I regret that it took a shocking admission from your friend to reveal that our progress since the 60s hasn't quite been as staggering as you might have hoped.

Being black, I am more of a realist on this issue. I DO think Barack can win, but we need to fight for every vote and get as many AA people as humanly possible to the polls.

Though I reject the premise that Obama is unloved (he did win the nomination after all), the comparison to the beloved athletes does illustrate to a large extent what the average Joe looks for in a President.

Seems to me that most Americans want a President who embodies many of the attributes that can be found in primarily the first three athletes selected (Brown, Ali, Jordan). Toughness, aggressiveness, fearlessness, an unwillingness to back down from a fight, a refusal to lose, someone who is "all in", will do whatever is required for victory, and doesn't give a hoot about what the competition has to say about it - these guys were the mentally and physically toughest "winners" on the block. Many of us find athletes easy to identify with, as we grew up in a culture where athletics is valued above almost all else, and we revel in their fights and victories vicariously.

Intelligence is our culture is valued much less than athletics, and is often looked at with suspicion. This is no different than in high school, where the "jocks" were always on the top rung, and the "eggheads" resided much lower on the social ladder. Not much changes after graduation. Obama is currently playing the roll of "egghead" and is being defined as such by an effective, but predictable, Republican smear campaign.

From my perspective, this is why last week was so difficult to watch. Yet again, we have a candidate with a clearly superior intellect stymied by the aggressiveness of an opponent who will obviously do and say anything, true or not, to win. If I knew Obama could hit back, and hit back hard in a decisive way that, say, a Jim Brown, Michael Jordan, or Ali would, Obama's tepid response to McCain's crap wouldn't be an issue. But he hasn't yet shown a willingness or ability to do so, and continued inaction, regardless of how much money it brings in from the choir, will harm him in the weeks to follow. What makes it all the more difficult is that Obama is not only the "egghead" candidate, but he is also the "jock" candidate as well.

Obama has shown the capability of being a counter-puncher, but counter-puncher is not the way one would describe Jordan, or Brown, or Ali (Rumble in the Jungle notwithstanding), and this road leads to defeat (see Kerry, John). There is no reason at all that Obama can't seize the offensive, not with slime or false garbage, but with the TRUTH. Save the compromising (off-shore drilling) for when you're in office - right now, it shows weakness. How about doing the following:

1. Via commercial, ask the country if it's had enough of leadership that can't be counted on to tell the truth. Call McCain a liar using the myriad examples he provides on an almost daily basis. Nothing will make him lose his temper quicker than having his integrity questioned - and it should be after the last week of crap.
2. Via commercial, ask the country if it's had enough of leadership that revels in war. Play the Bomb, Bomb, Bomb, Iran clip over and over again. Show Americans what they can expect in a McCain administration, and ask whether we can afford another war.
3. Via commercial, ask the country if it's had enough of leadership that doesn't know its head from its ass. Sunni vs. Shiite. Czech Republic vs. Czechoslovakia. When the surge started. etc. etc. etc.
4. Ask the country if it's had enough of leadership that governs by dogma instead of FACTS (condoms & AIDS)
5. Via commercial, ask the country if it's had enough of leadership that can be counted on to operate unethically (Keating 5, oil contributions for off-shore drilling, etc.)
6. Have daily press conferences from the basketball court where the latest crap from McCain is mocked. Taunt McCain as a lightweight in an athletic setting. Express relief that McCain wasn't seriously hurt in the applesauce attack. Let people see Obama banging in the lane with a representative cross-section of American men and women and stars of yesterday and today (Jordan, Magic, Bird, contributors, campaign workers, factory workers, local college & high schoolers, etc.). Show physical toughness. Let people relate.
7. Crash a McCain rally and challenge him to a town hall meeting right then and there, for as long as there are people to ask questions. Tell McCain to put down his index cards and put him on the spot. Make him match Obama's stamina. I think it was a mistake for Obama to turn these down - our ideas are better, and so is our candidate. Let's get 'em out there, stop cowering, stop apologizing (I don't think the McCain camp is racist), stop compromising, and stop playing not to lose.
8. Ask the country if McCain has the temperament to be President. Use examples and drive 'em home.
9. Via commercial, ask the country how a man who dumped his first wife and married into millions can possibly share their values. Define McCain as the one out of touch.
10. Highlight flip flops. So many to choose from.

Obama should aggressively define McCain by using the TRUTH, not false attack ads. Introduce America to the real McCain. Americans don't want a wimpy, "egghead" President. They want the "jock". They don't care if their President can spell their own name so long as they project toughness (See Bush, George W). Right now, McCain does and Obama doesn't. I believe in Obama and his advisers, and it's not yet time to panic, but Obama better soon GO ON THE OFFENSIVE AND STOP PLAYING NOT TO LOSE!!!!!

I'm not familiar enough with Obama's history to see if he's faced a similar campaign in the past and came back vigorously. I think he's able to do so in interpersonal settings (based on his confrontation with Lieberman earlier this year and his experience in Chicago politics) but he seems to stick to the carefully crafted public image as a conciliatory figure. I wonder how much of that image is his campaign staff's preference and how much is his preference.

would Rush be able to question why YOU couldn't "accept" a black president?

Athletes aren't partisan political figures, people who inherently piss off the half of the country that doesn't agree with them.

Athletes are therefore more likely to be universally accepted.

....flat and thin, but I don't use a sledgehammer to accomplish it. You could have asked the same question replacing pics of popular white athletes, and ask: Why Most Of America Loves These Guys - But Not John McCain? To "love" a candidate is not a requrement for supporting him/her, and the celebrities you name have a rather long relationship with the American public and their love affair with sports, unlike Obama, who has been on the national scene for a relatively short time. The sad truth is, there are too many obama supporters who cannot help themselves from throwing anything that could be construed as racism, seeing what sticks, then running with it. It is counter-productive, and provides the GOPutzes with the opportunity to scream "race card" at Obama. Obama does not need his supporters efforts to sway voters by using guilt, or shame to procure those votes. He can, and will win based upon the issues, and the rejection of the Bush/McShame policies. Republicans are racists. That's an undeniable fact. Unfortunately that perception is manipulated enough that the average voter doesn't interpret their words or actions as such. You know the drill. Obama needs to keep hammering on the issues, and McShame's embrace of the failed Bush administrations policies. That's what people want to hear, and it's what will get Obama elected. When racism rears it's ugly head, it's deplorable enough. Providing the ammunition for it is counter-productive in the effort to make it disappear. Thanks.
quickesst

and respect and support Obama.

using pictures of popular white female celebrities and ask why Americans, and American men in particular, love these "gals" but not Hillary Clinton?

I really think that turning everything into a racist statement can only hurt Senator Obama. For one thing, it gives Republicans "permission" to do it. "well, as long as they think this anyway, we might as well say it, huh?"

white folks, not lead them.

:sarcasm:

who is also biracial, as he kept reminding us. But athletes exist to be admired, and they don't really affect our lives... Obama will.

Sports are famously apolitical. Golf fans love Tiger no matter their political persuasion. So yes, a great number of people love Tiger. But with Obama, there is an immediate like/dislike based on political persuasion. Hence, you've already lost 50% of the public.

I don't think there's that many who don't like him because he's black. I think they don't like him because he's Dem, or he's a liberal, or his position on the war, etc.

Sports and politics are not an apples-to-apples comparison.

And false too.

I didn't think so.

Why is it asinine and false?

Sports figures usually keep their politics to themselves, so we -- as fans -- just like them for their achievements, their personality, etc. Politics does not enter into it. And sports are the best showcase for meritocracy, which is another reason we admire athletes. They achieve something we can only dream of.

There is obviously a group of people who would never vote for a black man, but the majority who say they won't vote for him do so for reasons other than race.

Don't fall into the brainwashed trap of the mainstreamediawhores meme.

about half of the country?

:eyes:

Remove the media coverage of race and what do you have? We have a country saying America is ready for Obama, for a black President, and to vote for Obama.

Iowa, Idaho, and some other predominately white states during the primary answered this question - at least at one time it did, and I don't know why that would change.

I know what your saying. The media is manufacturing this. It's an element in the matrix planted by the media that doesn't need to be there.

If Senator Obama had gone to Syracuse University instead of Columbia he would be in league with Jim Brown.

and easily controlled.

Many Americans are still not paying close enough attention to have really gotten to know Senator Obama.

except in the universal love of fellow human kind of way.

While I bear no ill will towards Obama, I don't like his nomination or his candidacy, because I don't like his position on too many issues. That's simple to understand: it's the issues that count.

The issues, and his positions on them, haven't gone away, and they won't go away.

Of course, I'm not "most of America," and don't pretend to speak for them.

There's a scene where this topic(although in pre-Obama terms)comes up.

Other interesting points in the discussion of sports and race in America have included the tendency, on many if not most occasions when African American athletes have shown ability in, say, particular positions on a sports team, of white fans and even white sportswriters to then start arguing that those weren't the IMPORTANT positions.

Or the propensity of certain white sports announcers to label, for example, all white college basketball players as "intelligent" and all black college basketball players as "great natural athletes".

Spike Lee & Turturro. Great scene.

EDIT: http://www.edgeofsports.com/products.html

that she would refuse to vote for Obama because he's black. She said she just couldn't do it. She's lived her entire life in Minnesota, I've never in my whole life ever heard a racist word from her, yet out popped this wholly irrational weirdness.

The racism in this country runs WAAAAY deep.

sw

:evilgrin:

I get what you're saying.

There is a demographic of people out there who just don't like the thought of having decisions that influence their lives in the hands of a black man. Before anyone gets up in arms over broad generalizations, note that I am not saying "most", but "some".

It's kind of like those who freak out over the notion that Jesus could be black, not the white interpretation with flowing, shoulder-length blondish hair we see everywhere. Ask them why that's such an upsetting concept. How can such a 'superior' being to the human race be based on a black man?

As someone else implied, for some people, it's one thing to be entertained by blacks...it's another thing altogether to be governed by a black man or be subordinate to one in the workplace.

If you could get into the thoughts of some of those WV and KY voters - not that they're the only places where people believe this, of course - that's the attitude you might find.

Is it a large enough number of these types of voters to throw the election? We'll just have to see. It didn't prevent Obama from winning the nomination, and fear of a black president didn't motivate people to come out and vote against him, so let's hope that the McCain campaign is making a serious miscalculation with the racial scare tactics they're employing.

theys also sing and dance right good you know. Now why they wanna be all a messing with a bunch a other things? That just ain't right and natural!"

I work with a human, a mechanoid, and an evolved cat being in close quarters, and while they can all be smegging royal gits now and then, we never have a conflict over "race". It really is that simple, once you overcome the programming.

Man... talk about revisionist history.