Random Thoughts on Party Unity

It's pretty obvious that there is still some lingering hard feelings, going both ways, between ardent Clinton supporters and ardent Obama supporters. I imagine something of the same may hold true of the upper echelons of each campaign apparatus and each set of major donors. Hopefully, the two (one former and one present) candidates are larger than that, but you never know.

Seems to me that we won't win unless we are unified. But the question is how to achieve that unity and on what terms. I see two possibilities:

Possibility one: A Combining Forces.

Possibility two: It's my party! Now unify behind me!

I'll take the possibilities in turn. But before I do, I'll start with my own feelings. I have to admit that I personally am still very much underwhelmed by Obama. But there is simply no way I will either vote for McCain of sit this one out (or vote for Nader). Never have sat out an election since I was first eligible to vote for McGovern way, way, back in my youth. Almost always my primary candidate has been the loser -- My lists of losers include: Mo Udall, Teddy Kennedy, Jerry Brown, and Hillary Clinton -- my latest loser. I don't think I've ever felt quite as unreconciled, though, as I do this time. Though again, I will do the right thing, even if it brings with it a deep touch of regret at what almost was and might have been. I doubt I'm alone in such feelings.

Now here's where the two possibilities come in. First Obama people have to decide whether they think they need the hearts of the Clinton people or only some of their votes. If they calculate that the need to win more hearts from Clinton's base, then they need to think about a combination of forces strategy. If they think that they just need the votes, never mind the hearts, of the bulk of Clinton supporters, then they can go with the "It's my party!" approach.

The surest way to win the hearts of Clinton supporters is to choose her as his VP. I doubt that will happen, though -- for lots of different reasons. Short of that, I'm not exactly sure what he can do to win Clinton owned hearts. Perhaps he can adopt some major element of her agenda in place of his -- her healthcare program rather than his. But I don't really know if this would work.

But he may also calculate that he doesn't need Clinton owned hearts, just their votes. In that case, he doesn't particularly need to kow-tow to Clinton's people, her fundraisers, her supporters. He just runs as the democratic nominee, who sets the agenda, pretty much as he sees fit. He says this is where I am going. Now you folks jump on board. In effect, he puts the question to the CLinton Folks: DO yo want me or McCain? And he KNOWs that facced with that choice the overwhelming majority will choose Obama.

There's risks in both ways.

If Obama decides he doesn't need to win hearts, then some Clinton supporters may just be willing to sit out, bide their time, and watch Obama lose a close one. So that they can claim an "I told you so" moment. In my secret heart of hearts, I sometimes find myself feeling that urge. But I always have and always will manage to stifle it. But I know its there and won't be entirely extinguished unless and until Obama wins this thing and governs effectively.

(An aside about my personal history: I NEVER got over my distaste for Carter's presidency. Indeed the way he governed magnified it. But I do respect him now as much as I respect any human being on this planet. But I spent every waking hour I could muster away from my studies -- i was avoiding finishing my dissertation at the time and throwing myself into Teddy's campaign proved a very good avoidance technique -- in the hopes of unseating our incumbent president. I was convinced that he was a GE loser. But when he won the primary, I swallowed hard and voted for him again in the GE . Similarly, as much as I admire Bill Clinton, I blame him a LOT for for a LOT of bad things that happened to the party as a consequence mainly of his personal failings. So these guys are NEVER everything you hope for. )

if Obama spends too much time winning hearts, he'll look weak and needy. He may both alienate some of his own core supporters and play into McCain's argument that despite his celebrity, he isn't really ready to be president.

I don't really know what I would do if I were in his shoes. I think the temptation would be to go for the votes rather than the hearts. But I'd wonder if I was just being prideful and arrogant. On the other hand, in no way would I grovel before Clinton. In either case, I'd want this all to be handled discretely, behind closed doors, and not out in the open for the press to spin and the supporters to bicker about.

I work with them every time I volunteer.

Those who haven't come over to Obama are largely independents and even Republicans who saw something they liked in her. I don't see the loss of the rest of the Clinton supporters as a liability to Obama. I do see them as a possibility for Obama, in that if he could win them, he would be a lot closer to winning. It's up to him to decide how he constructs his majority, though. Choosing her would close other options to him--all choices close options. I think she's his best chance, but not his only chance.

...he feels comfortable governing with.

If it means that he'll choose someone that is a loyal soldier -- a yes person, who is beholden to him for his/her national prominence -- then I don't admire the principal. If it means that he will choose someone who will give him wise, tough counsel, he will help him make tough choices and hard decisions, and will be effective at helping him defend and sell those choices to the Congress and the people, then I do admire the principle. The former is putting personal comfort and his own ego first. The latter is making is a bow toward acknowledging that a President who surrounds himself/herself only with assenting voices that are beholden to the president for the very right to speak won't govern effectively.

Seems to me that Hillary Clinton, with independent standing of her own and powerful effective voice both privately and publically, fits the second bill pretty well, even if not the first bill.

...but I'm sure he also wants someone he can trust ~ that's where both Hillary and Bill fall short imo.

He actually knows the Clintons, especially Hillary. He's got no reason not to trust her.

"Obama is not a muslim .... as far as I know"

"John McCain and I are prepared to lead and answer the 3am call. Barack Obama gave a speech."

"Enough with the speeches and big rallies... shame on you, Barack Obama!"



Nope... no reason at all.

:eyes:

If Hillary divorced Bill, her chances at getting the job would skyrocket.

Bill Clinton has been President. He knows first hand that a president needs wise behind the scenes counsel from the best minds he can draw upon. He knows that these people must be discrete and not speak out of turn. He knows that first hand. I think in an Obama Whitehouse, Clinton would want and would have no explicit profile. He would just be behind the scenes, available as needed. He is smart enough to play that role and he would play it to the hilt.

I don't think his ego would at all get in his way. The question is whether Obama is secure enough in his own self that he could live with a former president that up close and personal as the husband of his very prominent VP. IF he could and if the CLintons would both behave -- which I believe firmly that they would -- it would be an amazing team, truly amazing.

You see how these aholes operate.

They're as bad or worse than Dick Nixon with his enemies list.

Richardson is Judas??? Get over yourself Bubba.

I hope Obama wins this and Hillary isn't anywhere near VP.

You see on these boards with Clinton supporters are just copying Bill. The vicariously insulted and indignant Clintonites. What a great influence the Clintons are huh?

When the media turned all their fire on him and started talking about how he was undermining Hillary's campaign, he let the campaign send him to small towns in nowheresville that had NEVER been visited by a former president. This actually helped with rural and small town turn out.

That's discipline. That's willing to do whatever is necessary for the cause. That's being willing to surrender the limelight.

He would do the same for an Obama-Clinton adminstration. I have no doubt of that.

Honestly, I am not even sure I want him out there campaigning for Obama. Hillary, yes. But Bill couldn't behave when he genuinely wanted to help Hillary...I don't see how Obama could expect to keep him on message when he couldn't stay on message for his wife. And that has nothing to do with Obama being secure enough with himself. It has to do with him having a team he can trust.

Yeah, why doesn't the woman divorce her husband so that she might be worthy to be our nominee's VP.

:wtf:

Ya learn something new every day here.

Maybe men should be paid less, if their time is so limited.

:silly:

I am not saying she would undermine him, but I think there's that possibility, and he might not trust her. He wants someone who will challenge him but will do so with his best interests at heart...he may not trust Hillary to be that person. There might just be too much bad blood between them and their staffs and supporters to work together effectively as a team...I am all for a VP who will challenge him behind the scenes and I think that's what he wants, but he also wants to maintain the drama-free cohesion of his team and I don't see how you bring her on and do that. There's a big difference between challenging him on policy behind the scenes to help him make better decisions, and challenging him publicly or privately for the sake of undermining or competing with him.

He has to win to govern, ergo he will choose the person he feels will help him win.

Political cliches are like sports cliches. Of course they are true, but they don't really say anything. If Obama decides Clinton will help him win, he'll suddenly feel very comfortable governing with her. Not that he doesn't, already.

I still love Hillary though (more than Bill). And I get pissed to hell when people slag her.

I didn't mind people slagging him because I don't think he has done everything he can.

I HATE people who slag her though. I put that anger towards those individuals though. I still believe Barack and Hillary are friends.

They are democrats.
The ship is the democratic party. Just a change of candidate for captain. Not a different ship.

I'm glad you're coming around, and I know it's tough. 2004 was the first presidential primary I was really involved with and when Dean conceded it broke my heart and almost made me lose faith in politics.

I think Obama does not seem to take the threat of Clinton supporter defections very seriously. Whether that's a mistake or not is hard to say. The PUMA people sure are loud and adamant that they won't just "fall in line", but how many of them are there? I don't for one second doubt their sincerity or their commitment but how many people they speak for is anyone's guess.

They claim to represent all 17-18 million that voted for Sen. Clinton.

PEW research said in June 69% of Clinton voters were behind Sen. Obama, and 17% were behind McCain. 12% were undecided and 2% would not vote.

Figure a lot of PUMA members are "Operation Chaos" types who would have never voted for Sen. Clinton anyway.

And figure that every single public PUMA event seems to get rather......poor attendance.

If they're more than 1 million, I'd be amazed. They seem to be more noise than anything else.

They (the media, that is) aren't necessarily pulling for McCain - the Overclass will do fine regardless of who's elected - it's just that drama sells papers and increases ratings/traffic.

I'd like to see HRC on the ticket, but I don't see any evidence that the party will try something other than, "Fuck you, vote for me."

I hope I'm wrong. Being right in 2004 (that we would lose w/o Dean) almost cost me my life.

But look on the bright side, PUMA could keep the Obama campaign from getting overconfident. That's part of what killed us last time.

edited for clarification

would be "prideful and arrogant" in choosing someone other than Hillary.

Honesty!!!

What a refreshing change in DU.

Thanks.

That's it in a nutshell, really. Obama has been gracious and has bent over backwards in his deference to the Clintons, but apparently that sustained effort is invisible to some Clinton acolytes that are simply incapable of processing the defeat like a normal human being.

The Clintons chose the route of ugly, a path McBush is following now, but the piece de resistance was saying flat-out that Obama's opponent is ready to be president but Obama is not. Bill Clinton underscored that yesterday when he had the opportunity to do his part to unite the party and instead chose to undermine Obama yet again.

She will not be VP and the reason for that is entirely the Clintons' fault. They simply do not play well with others.

Please quit the hyperbolic fantasies. Satan?

What planet are you on?
As the OP says - some are underwhelmed and perhaps retain some resentment at the sudden rise from relative obscurity but I don't know democrat who sees Obama as evil. It is clear to everyone he is mightily gifted and in any event - he could be the worst democratic candidate in a century and still be preferable to McCain.

The bile from Anti-Obama (alleged) Democrats toward the nominee is out there. One must have their eyes and ears closed really, really tight to miss it. I take no issue with those that choose to vote for someone else. I have a HUGE problem, however, with those trying to undermine and hamstring Obama. The HRC2012 or bust crowd continue to try to undermine Obama this go to clear the decks for 2012.

to some people. Is that what you are saying?

A friend of mine is exploring writing a book on this and the data he allowed me to review is jaw-dropping. Denial of this data which by the way is easily accessible on the internet is the sticking point in this conversation, which is usually the case at DU.

Pretending this intraparty bile doesn't exist serves to try to cover up the pains some disgruntled Clintonites are taking to try to bury the nominee.

(We need a John Milton to write the campaign book)

No hating from me.
I don't hate any of the democrats that have been prominent in this election cycle. Quite the reverse. We had a great crop. And Obama is a great candidate who rose to the top of the heap.
Those who did not (e.g. Hillary) are included in that "great democrat" category. Those who do not think so are divisive deadenders. (Minor demons?)

Look - can't we all get beyond this?

To repeat:

We need Obama to win.
That will take all of us.
Stop picking Hillary scabs.
She is a great democrat and would have made a great presidential candidate and president.
But Obama is the candidate. Like it or not.
He is damned good.
Stop trashing Hillary.
She would make a great pick for VP.
It may not happen.
She will still be an incredible force in democratic politics for the good of the country in whatever role she has going forward.
So what if she was not your ideal pick? So what if she is flawed?
Get out there and do the best we can to ensure a democratic victory in November.
So what if Obama is not the best candidate in your view.
He's the one we have.
And he damned good.
And we need him to win

So the hyperbole isn't one-sided.

All this religiosity is frightening.

Let's just get him elected.

He is a good enough democrat and a good enough politician and candidate. And that's good enough for me.

The media is guessing as much as anyone else, and for lack of solid information, they're happy to relay the speculative musings of "inside sources" or grant interviews to disgruntled Hillraisers and angry PUMAs.

The only barometer we've really had are the few, much-discussed comments made at recent appearances by Hillary and Bill. All I'll say about that here is that there's nothing conclusive to draw from those either. I don't know if that points to stalemates or stubborn behavior from any of the parties involved, but it seems that the VP choice is being played up by the MSM as a pivotal decision, and whatever's going on, it seems it's going to be forestalled until the last minute.

Personally, I don't get a 'synergy' vibe from the two of them. I never have. There's a lot of sentiment on this forum that there will be some sort of dynamic alchemy if they pair up on the ticket, but I don't believe that after the 'kitchen sink' strategy was deployed during the primary.

If Hillary is not chosen as the VP for sound reasons on Obama's part, then I hope some agreement can be reached that will compel Hillary to speak out to whichever of her supporters are considering a sit-out or a Republican defection on her behalf.

I for one just want to get the winner of the Democratic primary in the White House. If Hillary had won it fair and square, I'd be voting for her.

I favored Obama, but I'm not going to tell Hillary supporters to "get over it". I just want the Dem in the WH. I realize that some people are going to cast their vote for Obama against their deepest wishes, and I'm not gloating or antagonizing to make that any more difficult.

He was too uppity. And, yeah I know the Clinton people hate it, but I actually think Clinton may be a racist...but that's just me.

Even had Obama been white, as a first time Senator who was able to get the establishment party to toss the Clintons overboard--they'd still hate him.

Because if winning their hearts means putting HRC on his ticket, he would lose the independent votes he absolutely needs to win the election.

I don't know where you live but I live in a blue state (MN) where independent voters are a greater percentage of the voting population than either R's or D's. A Survey USA poll in MN at the end of June demonstrated that many of those I's would defect to McCain if HRC were on the ticket.

editing of typos

I'm like you, I'm not in love with Obama. But who cares? I'll vote for him, so will you, and so will all Democrats, or as many as always vote for the candidate. He needs to worry about the middle votes now. Those are the ones who will vote for McCain if they don't vote for him, which means their votes count twice. That's where he has to campaign, and he doesn't need to be looking over his shoulder at battles he's already won. He won the primary, and all us Democrats are the spoils of that victory, and whether we vote for him happy or with some trepidation, we will vote for him.

I think Clinton is his best choice for VP, but not because he needs to make me happy. I think she balances the things he lacks, and strengthens the things he does well. That's a complete about-face on my feelings all during the primaries. But I've seen poll numbers and heard a lot of testimony that has changed my mind.

But he can choose anyone he wants. He doesn't have to fight for my vote. He's got that, he needs to go after people he doesn't already have. And we just need to give him room to work.

But I gave to the max for Clinton. So did my wife.

Neither of us has yet given for Obama - -though we have given to the party. Just can't bring myself yet to do it. At least not yet. At a minimum, Clinton on the ticket would spur a lot of donors to give, don't you think?

with many groups.
The downside would be minimal.(The deadenders would have to quite their moaning). The upside - in terms of the chances of a landslide - huge.

But we all speculate. None of us are omniscient. And we all all put up with whatever brilliant, stupid, inspired, ridiculous choice the campaign goes for. I just hope that lingering resentments on the part of campaign operatives don't steer the choice.

He'd anger others, though.

I think she's his best choice. Frankly, I think he wants her and he's just waiting until the last moment to make sure it's feasible. Even his limited campaign experience would show him that her image would improve over time, if left alone. I think that's what all the Unity stuff was about--improving her image as much as his. Meanwhile he throws out a variety of names to keep the media amused, and to reward people who helped him along the way. He might still choose someone else, if they work better for him.

But he has to base his strategy on the general, not on repairing wounds from the primary. They may result in the same thing, or may not, but that needs to be his focus.

Obama is out to win against McCain and the media righty now,
and you want energy to go to broken hearts over the primaries?

That just goes to show where the Clintons really are in all this - Bills performance the other day and now 'dnt forget about lil ole me , me me, mememememememem Hillary'..

gawd I'm getting sick of this fucking whining.

If indulging in spite is worth it, then have at it.

That reminds me that I've seen your work at caphill, so I guess you will continue to have at as well.

I'm sure your friends are, like, all impressed and shit.

talk to mr. whiskey beak first and grill him on that one.

:eyes:

We can be like they are, we'll be able to fly. Take my hand.

so no thanks.
:P

That's the problem, ain't it?

:)

But you know, I give up. This election has worn me out. Let the guy choose whomever he wants as VP and let the chips fall where they may.

Get off your Goddamn high horse and stop playing victim. You have 3 choices: Obama, McCain, or stay the fuck home. If you want to continue the gloriousness that is Bushco, then by all mean do one of the latter 2.

as evidenced by several replies, electing Obama the Democrat is not as high a priority as Clinton hate. It must be a magical feeling, although for the life of me, I cannot fathom gaining such pleasure out of such a negative feeling. The illogical pissin, bitchin, moanin, and crying over an opponent that has already been defeated is proof in itself. As long as they choose to sling it, I'll be there to defend both Hill and Bill, and I'm not nearly as nice about it as others. I'm determined to vote for Obama based upon what Obama says and does, and as long as he publicly rejects those who would drive a further wedge between dems, including PUMA etc, I remain committed. Your plea for unity is as logical as it is thoughtful, but I have never been fond of laying down just so someone can beat me with a club. I would rather not be writing these posts, but then, it is a two-way street. Although I am a Clinton supporter, I have confidence in Obama's ability to choose the vp he feels will be the best fit. I have to wonder why so many of his ardent primary supporters do not share that level of confidence. Thanks.
quickesst

"Now here's where the two possibilities come in. First Obama people have to decide whether they think they need the hearts of the Clinton people or only some of their votes. If they calculate that the need to win more hearts from Clinton's base, then they need to think about a combination of forces strategy. If they think that they just need the votes, never mind the hearts, of the bulk of Clinton supporters, then they can go with the "It's my party!" approach.

The surest way to win the hearts of Clinton supporters is to choose her as his VP. I doubt that will happen, though -- for lots of different reasons. Short of that, I'm not exactly sure what he can do to win Clinton owned hearts. Perhaps he can adopt some major element of her agenda in place of his -- her healthcare program rather than his. But I don't really know if this would work."
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

He won the primary. There is not a doubt. She did not win. I have today been reading more of the blogs of her so-called supporters who are loving all the TV attention they are getting.

They are even trying to get Dean's salary taken away since Obama won. They are accusing both men of all kinds of stuff.

You either support the winner, or you support wrinkled gray John McCain who offered his wife up to be in a nudie beauty contest.

There is just no middle ground.

Bill Clinton is daily showing that he will keep her from being VP. She is lukewarm as well....watch this video if you don't believe me.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/2439

And watch the one linked to it of her supporters harassing Dean everywhere he goes. She could stop, Bill could stay off TV, but he won't. She won't.

then they don't want to be a team player.

And please don't link Obama going at it over this when Obama supporters are team players and fully support Obama.