Today I had my first meeting with the a Hill person.

A saleswoman noticed my Obama button and opened up with, 'I am a Democrat and have always voted Dem but I will not vote for Obama. I don't know what to do. I am not sure that this country can take another four years of Republican rule.' I shook her hand and asked her if she had been a Hillary supporter and she nodded yes. I told her that I had been a Kucinich supporter and I understood how she felt. I noted that a lot of us have had to make a move and that Obama seemed like a good choice to me. When I asked her why she felt the way she did she had no answer. I tried my best to bridge the gap today but honestly, I am exhausted by it all.

At least you tried, and who knows? You may have planted something, or at least made her think. I haven't run into anyone like that, and don't understand how Obama could be misconstrued as a Republican, especially when put side by side with McCain. Oh god, I hope these people wake up before November. Then again, my mom claims to be a Democrat but hasn't voted for a Dem since Carter in '76. I don't think a person who is avid Democrat/liberal would even consider not voting for Obama. The stakes are just too high.

a really interesting person, nice, she loved my opinions and was interested in my writing etc. We came across each other on a blog where somebody asked "Obama or McCain" and I took on several RWers at once and epically dismantled them all. So much so that I had one RWer tell me that I rocked the house, and I had people messaging me asking me about history and policy and international relations etc. She was one of them who asked me several things over the course of this last week.

Well anyway, she told me that she's pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, and several other things in a Dem platform. She doesn't believe Obama is a Muslim, or any of those other rumors at all.

But she is still voting for McCain.

I didn't try to convince her otherwise.

Why? Because she read all of the stuff I wrote, saw me obliterate GOP talking point after talking point, watched me show that Obama was the better candidate and had better policies. She read it all, and agreed with it.

But is still voting for McCain.

She was nice, never tried to argue or anything, nothing like that, but if she's not looking to turn at this point and after all that, there is nothing I could say or do. I could get mad, throw a fit or whatever and it would do nothing more than cause a fight.

Plus, like you, I am sick of trying to convince people of the obvious. If they don't want to believe something, they just won't believe it, no matter what you do.

I have liked Hillary since the Primaries, but the question about Obama is, what is the WORST case scenario?

Answer: That he's actually a Republican. A flat-out Manchurian candidate. That is the WORST case scenario. Yet the alternative is to vote for McCain, who IS a republican WITHOUT A DOUBT. So even with a 99% chance of Obama being a republican, the best bet is still to vote for him...so I can't concieve what she is thinking.

is that they are racists. Bottom line!

That's it in a nut shell. You'll be accused of oversimplifying, or overusing the racism charge or just being plain insulting. (Although perhaps the last charge isn't so bad being called a racist should be considered an insult.) What's worse, there'll be people who will deny that race is the problem yet come up with no other reasonable explanation for such a vote. Why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge what is right there? Racists do not all wear pointy white hats made of bed linen and all of them need to be called out.

The person who the OP has run into is a plain old fashioned racist. Why is this so hard for people to see?

Regards

when HRC was still running they saw her everyday on TV & they blooged their little hearts out on HRC fansites and when it was over she was gone. She wasn't on TV everyday and to get her back in 2012 they need for the man who took her away from them to lose. They hate him and as a group they are only increasing their venom and hatred.

that Obama stole it from her. That she won the popular vote and he ripped her off. I think she is more along those lines than the race angle. She's from Arkansas too, I never talked to her much about it, but I think she simply cannot vote for Barack because he beat her. I also think that with her most hardcore supporters when she said the stuff about her having experience, McCain having experience and Barack having a speech he made in 2002 that some of them truly believe that. The feeling I get is some of those hardcore supporters would just as soon saw their arms off than vote for Obama, if that means voting for McCain, so be it. I get the impression they want him beaten this fall. Now keep in mind, I'm not saying all HRC supporters are like that, of course not, but a small vocal segment are.

I agree with that.

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/89/89jlothar.phtml

I don't have the patience.

Line the two up side by side, compare their platforms. If you're a millionaire McCain may appeal to you more, otherwise any SANE person would realize Obama is the better candidate. no use in arguing with the insane....

These women often say it is about women's rights, but how can they honestly believe this issue will be better off with a McCain president. The man has no respect for his own wife, let alone for other women.

Obama may not be perfect, but, on the issues I care about, he is incredibly better than McCain, just like Hillary is.

She won't come out and say it.... but that's what it is.

It makes no sense to me. We have a white 'macho-acting' *resident who has killed, maimed, stolen, lied and ripped our rights away from us and he looks like Uncle Andy at the family reunion.

There is a sentiment in the group of Hillary supporters who haven't moved to support Obama that he didn't win the nomination fair and square and that the party deserves to go up in flames. That's how they feel and they will probably not change their minds by November. If you want to remain friends, better talk about things other than politics.

...that's the shit you're playing with.

When you wear an Obama button or shirt 24/7 you really start conversations.

who would not vote for him despite reading everything he posted on Obama's positions on various issues. I got you guys confused.

I only restated that because it is amazing to me how these conversations get started with seemingly normal looking people simply by wearing an Obama button or shirt. It's a long way to November, I'm smart enough to know that one. Peace, Kim

Are these idiots accusing Obama of stealing the election? Why? Are they just too astounded that some man, a black man at that, came out of "nowhere" to steal a nomination that they felt Clinton was entitled to?

No one is entitled to any position. That's why there are primaries to see who will be allowed to run for it.

Their attitude is deplorable.

Trust me, it is about race. I've seen this dance all too often. I doubt they'd be nearly as pissed if Edwards had won it.

Regards

Yes, some people would never vote for a black man, but I'm not talking about the racists.

Nor do they have to throw "the 'n' word" around every time they see a black person to be one either.

I know it's been called oversimplistic but I'll repeat. Anyone who deliberately votes the opposite of what they claim to believe in because they "just don't like" the candidate, who is black, is a racist. McLame does not stand for Democratic principles; Obama does. If those principles mean something voting for McLame should not even be an issue. There is other logical explanation for it. I don't care what knots these people twist themselves into to try to convince themselves they are not racists. They are because clearly they seem to think that black people are good enough to be in the party and maybe be a Senator but God forbid they should think they should be President.

Regards

can bring up the stupid Michigan and Florida shit til they are blue in the face. Even if they gave her all the delegates from those she still would not have won. She agreed that they would not count at all until she realized she needed those delegates. Yet, her supporters want to spin that lie. I was getting over all of this then Bill/Hill start the shit up again.

she ran a poor campaign. From the very beginning it was hers to lose and every move she made guaranteed it.

Hillary's ego is what got her in trouble, that's the truth. She assumed she was going to win. In high stakes competition no matter what the sport....athletics, politics, business....you never, ever take your eye off of the ball and you never, ever underestimate your opponant.

And that bothers the shit out of me.

Clinton lost so it must be something he did. No acknowledgment of the work Obama did. "He couldn't have won the nomination fair and square that uppity negro must of done something underhanded."

:sarcasm:

There seems to be an extremely highly developed sense of entitlement in this group and it needs to stop now. They have no standing to make demands and yet they seem not to realize it.

Regards

to explain her contention that "Hillary has EARNED the right to have a roll call at the convention" but she wouldn't answer me. I can't understand why.

And your comment that Hillary's supporters who refuse to back Obama have no standing to make demands and yet they seem not to realize it is so on the money it's ridiculous. For the life of me, I will never understand their point or purpose. They supported a great candidate (Hillary) who lost. What more is there to say?? What are these other "rights" earned or otherwise, that they keep insisting that they have???

people who believe that Obama didn't win the nomination fair and square are dumbasses and not true Democrats. Screw 'em. End of story.

If you've always voted as a Democrat and can't vote for Obama, you are either a racist, uninformed politically or both.

There are vengeful people out there. They don't need any more reason to cut off their own nose than "you made me angry". Even if they know its a bad idea, and why its a bad idea, and even like their own nose quite a bit.

I am probably going to take heat from all sides on this, but some people are not going to vote for Obama because of race. I do not think anyone can deny that. But I do not think it is as large a number not voting for him because of race others seem to think it is.

It is more about not being able to let go of a dream. For some (let me re peat that some) the idea of Hillary winning was promised to them before Obama was really even on the scene. When the reality started coming down, that it was not going to be her, the heels dug in and the heart went cold for "some"

They fell in love with their canidate. We all fall in love with our canidate to a degree. But some cannot let go of this dream. For "some" let me re peat "some" of the Obama supporters, they feel like when is enough enough.

There was the whole thing of letting her have her day etc. That happened. Obama did not have the huge celebration that they wanted when their canidate took the numbers to secure the nomination. They had to forgo their balloons dropping.

So everyone is tired, and the idea of here we go again at the convention is wearing us all out I think.

Someone posted in another thread.. stating that Obama should pick his veep now, and I agree. It would end some of this.

We just can't keep spinning wheels

Thanks for this. Peace, Kim

I am a died in the wool Obamite!. Have been since day one, and I guess I can understand how disappointed I would be, if he was not the canidate . Its time though :), to move together. Right now I am really hurting for Elizabeth Edwards. So even this is taking a backseat. I am Emily (Em) :hi:

VP but won't if he doesn't. I can't see racism being the reason, just grieving over how close she came.

The ones I most recently encountered are blatant liberal/progressive Democrats who most likely would have been all Obama all the time if Hillary had either (a) not been in the race or (b) not kept the neck and neck race going as long as she did.

Everything I know about these people indicates they should otherwise adore Barack Obama.

Yesterday, at lunch with 4 other people. Question arose as to the prospective VP and two of the people at the table emphatically stated they couldn't vote for him if he doesn't choose her. The rest of us were shocked, and went into the "but if McCain is elected because of this, how are you going to feel?" because the whole point is to get the leadership back. White House, Senate, House, all of it. Perhaps I should point out that the 2 who made the statement were the youngest ones at the table, with the other 3 being at least 10 years older, which might have something to do with it..not sure, just seemed that way.

It's the Supreme Court
It's the Economy
It's medical care/coverage however it turns out
It's education
It's the WAR

however we do it, whomever it ends up being, those are the things that matter.

Earlier in the day I had a one on one conversation w/ one of these two women, in which she was ranting about how the Republicans are busting ass around here trying to undermine the Democrats in the Hispanic community (she is Hispanic herself) and how important it is that we work really hard to get out the vote and counter all this stuff...as if it was a foregone conclusion she was focused on the Goal in November.
Shocked me when she threw the Hillary card at lunch.

Maybe I just have a different perspective because I was not emotionally vested at the gut level with either of them. I nearly gave myself whiplash making up my mind; the closer our primary got, the crazier my head felt and the more my neck hurt. Obama finally won out mostly because I just like him better as an individual and because of the way he handles himself when presented with unexpected situations ..and because geez, we need a break here. Bush I...Clinton...Bush II... Clinton again? Just think a change in power brokers is in order here. Since then Barack Obama has said and done a lot of things which make me believe I made the best choice.

Choosing between the first African-American and the first woman to potentially carry the nomination was very draining.

I am just ready for some hugs between the camps. As I put in a post above, right now, I am thinking more about Elizabeth Edwards, and hope peace comes her way. :hi:

combined with a nice bit of we all love each other at the end (whomever the ultimate VP nominee is) will get rid of most of this animosity

A.) Racist
B.) Bitter

Both are major motivators. One is just deeper than the other. "Bitter" might be overcome within the next 3 months. My personal opinion is that these people need to be treated with gentle respect, and not hit over the head with how great Obama is. If they believed that, they wouldn't have chosen Hillary! It is SHE that they believe in... and perhaps no other. I think if more of us Obama supporters reach inside of ourselves and come up with a million reasons why Hillary is a good candidate, and are sincere about it, then we can win over her supporters. If you listen to Obama, HE is being very respectful, and we need to take a clue from him.

Those who can't stop Hillary-bashing need to stay silent around Hillary supporters... because it doesn't help the healing, and we need their votes. If that isn't a "duh", I don't know what is.

"A" cannot be overcome within 3 months. Just be polite, end the conversation and discuss the weather until you can walk away.

But do you really believe that if Hillary had gotten the nomination, that there wouldn't have been just as much crap from disgruntled Obama supporters. Imagine what would be happening on DU if HC were the nominee and all her supporters were snarking on Barack and daring them to vote for mccain.

It is still a while until November. If we try now, we can get together. We just have to stop attacking each other. It is the best ploy the republicans have right now. I truly suspect much of the DU banter about how bad Hillary is or how bad Obama's supporters are is republican troll work.

Best reply to a Hillary supporter who is feeling hesitant about voting for Obama is the one you gave. We all have to decide to let go of the rancor of the primary and stop the infighting. Smile and tell someone how brave and hardworking Clinton is. Smile and tell someone what a good Democrat Kucinich is. Smile and tell everyone how bad the republicans have been screwing us and how we need a new way. We can't win if we don't unite.

1. long time voters, who while disappointed would immediately rally round the eventual nominee
2. new voters disappointed but willing to stay in for the good of the country
3. new voters, now feeling disenfranchised who stay home in November, and I think this would be larger than #2.
4. and some who would go to MCCain or a 3rd party candidate out of spite.

agree with you on the troll work

The worst will tell you directly, but most of them simply give you that worried, troubled look and dismiss him as "just not right" for president. That seems to be the case with a subset of older, scared white women, clutching their purses while fearing the black man. The racist white men seem more likely to simply acknowledge that they won't vote for Obama because he's black.

This saleswoman is obviously conflicted. Who to vote for is an easy decision, in a way - this woman could just not vote, or flip a coin on whatever anti-Obama choice is available, knowing that doing so helps the Republicans. The harder decision is whether or not to be honest with oneself about why one would act that way, and about what kind of person would facilitate 4 more years of Republican rule, even while knowing full well that doing so is a crime against humanity.

It happens every election, people shift party allegiances. The 2008 elections are something of a special case, tho', after 8 years of Bush Jr., and Cheney - after 8 years of war crimes done in the name of "the troops" and "freedom". Those who switch from Dem to Republican at this time would have some very pressing reasons for being dishonest with themselves.