Here is direct proof these operatives want to remove Howard Dean as DNC Chair.

Good evening, everybody. I‘m David Shuster, in for Chris Matthews. Today Democrats announced that Hillary Clinton‘s name will be placed into nomination at the convention in Denver in addition to Barack Obama. Is this an Obama-Clinton ceasefire or a Clinton Trojan horse? Hillary says it will help with unity. Her supporters say it‘s not enough. What do they want now? Are they sore or just sore losers? We‘ll talk with two of them in a moment.

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SHUSTER: ...the Obama campaign is trying to keep the peace in Denver by allowing Hillary Clinton‘s name to be put in nomination from the floor. In a joint statement today, Barack Obama said, quote, “I am convinced that honoring Senator Clinton‘s historic campaign in this way will help us celebrate this defining moment in our history and bring the party together in a strong, united fashion.” Hillary Clinton said, quote, “With every voice heard and the party strongly united, we will elect Senator Obama president of the United States and put our nation on the path to peace and prosperity once again.

Joining us now, two of Hillary Clinton‘s most die-hard supporters. Derragh Murphy is a founder of People United Means Action, and Will Bower is a co-founder of Just Say No Deal.

Will, Hillary‘s name is going into nomination. I gather that‘s not enough for you. Why not?

WILL BOWER, CO-FOUNDER, JUST SAY NO DEAL: Well, it‘s the least of things. This is not a favor that‘s being done for us. This is the way the process is supposed to be done. Since 1884, we‘ve had conventions where more than one candidate‘s name is placed on the ballot. So we‘re not asking for any special treatment here. This is how it‘s supposed to be done.

SHUSTER: But you‘re saying that you‘re not going to support Barack Obama.

BOWER: Well, I‘ve always said that. Come November, I will not be voting for Barack Obama.

SHUSTER: All right. Well, Derragh, are you going to be supporting Barack Obama, or are you also going to support John McCain?

DERRAGH MURPHY, PEOPLE UNITED MEANS ACTION PAC: I‘m not saying that we‘re supporting John McCain. What we‘re saying is that we‘re not going to be supporting Barack Obama.

SHUSTER: I want to play something that Hillary Clinton said when she ended her race in June, when she concluded that the race was lost and that Barack Obama would be the next Democratic nominee. Here she is on June the 7th. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY), FMR. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So I want to say to my supporters, when you hear people saying, or think to yourself, If only, or, What if, I say please don‘t go there. Every moment wasted looking back keeps us from moving forward.

(CHEERS, APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: Life is too short, time is too precious, and the stakes are too high to dwell on what might have been.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SHUSTER: Derragh, what is it that keeps you from listening to Hillary Clinton?

MURPHY: Oh, we all listened to that speech. It was a beautiful speech that she gave on June 7. And our position is that Hillary stood up for her voters for as long as she could, and now it‘s our job to stand up for ourselves, and that‘s what her speech...

SHUSTER: All right. But she‘s not standing up for your organization. I mean, Derragh, she said to a reporter, We oppose any effort that doesn‘t support a Democratic victory in the fall, including PUMA. You‘re with PUMA, right?

MURPHY: Yes, we‘re PUMA, PUMA PAC.

SHUSTER: Right. So she doesn‘t support you.

MURPHY: Well, it‘s not her job to support us. It‘s our job to support the democratic process, to support Democratic voters. We don‘t operate at that high level. We‘re about the voters—voice of the voters and the Democratic process.

SHUSTER: And speaking of the democratic process, Will, why not accept the fact Barack Obama, if he comes out of the convention as the nomination, that‘s the end. You‘ve had your say. Hillary Clinton supporters have had their say.

BOWER: Oh, because we haven‘t had our say yet. And to expect 2,000 delegates who represent 18 million voters, that they‘re going to silence those voices—again, this is the least of things.

SHUSTER: The least of things, but what—I mean, most voters—let‘s put aside the superdelegates. Most voters in the popular vote supported Barack Obama.

BOWER: (INAUDIBLE) popular vote.

SHUSTER: Right. But what‘s your definition of democracy?

BOWER: Well, my definition of democracy is when we have a system that isn‘t brokered from the beginning. I view this as having been pre-wired. You know...

SHUSTER: How?

BOWER: Well, everyone talks about Florida and Michigan, you know, that they broke the rules and that they were right to be punished. But no one realizes that Iowa and South Carolina and New Hampshire, they broke the rules, too. But for some reason...

SHUSTER: Wa, wa, wa, wait! How did they break the rules, by moving up the day?

BOWER: Well, no. There was—if you want to get into this because it‘s kind of wonky. But for example, there was a process where they were going to invite four states to be early window states. And those were going to be...

SHUSTER: I see where you‘re going. Here‘s the problem, Will. Here‘s the problem.

BOWER: All right.

SHUSTER: Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, all of the Democrats agreed with the process. They all agreed. They were all aware of the very issues you‘ve been raising now. And I guess the question is, Why can‘t you guys let this go? Why can‘t you accept—I mean, do you really want John McCain to be president?

BOWER: Well, no. I‘m not going to be voting for John McCain with joy in my heart. But this isn‘t about John McCain. This isn‘t about Barack Obama. This isn‘t about Hillary Clinton. This is about the democratic process, and we‘ve seen it greatly abused this year. And you know, most of us were very damaged the personally by what happened in this country back in 2000, when the election was decided by...

SHUSTER: Wait a second. Who was abused? Who did the abusing in this process?

BOWER: The DNC did the abusing, whether it‘s Nancy Pelosi or Donna Brazile or Howard Dean.

SHUSTER: How did they abuse the process?

BOWER: Well, for example, Howard Dean selected which states would be punished and which ones wouldn‘t. He didn‘t apply the rules evenly.

SHUSTER: But everybody agreed! Hillary Clinton agreed. All right, Derragh, let‘s ask you. Who abused the process, in your view?

MURPHY: Yes, I would say that—the RBC on May 31 in Washington, D.C. Hillary Clinton‘s campaign did not support that process of taking four delegates from her and giving them to Barack Obama.

SHUSTER: But they support it now. And in fact, Barack Obama has reinstated the Michigan and Florida delegates.

MURPHY: Right...

SHUSTER: So why is this a complaint of yours?

MURPHY: Conveniently at a time when it will help him and not hurt her. So I think it‘s—it‘s widely agreed that...

(CROSSTALK)

SHUSTER: ... question for you. Derragh, do you support abortion rights?

MURPHY: Yes, I do.

SHUSTER: You do. Then why would you want John McCain instead of Barack Obama?

MURPHY: I don‘t believe that Barack Obama stands up for anything, for any platform. I don‘t trust his...

SHUSTER: Nothing? He doesn‘t stand for anything? He doesn‘t stand for ending the Iraq war? He doesn‘t stand for trying to fix the economy? He doesn‘t...

MURPHY: Well, I don‘t know. He‘s in Hawaii right now, so I‘m not sure where he stands on those kinds of issues.

SHUSTER: All right, let‘s vote against him because he‘s in Hawaii. Is that the position—I mean, seriously, what is it about a John McCain presidency that you think would be better than Barack Obama, given that you clearly seem to have Democratic viewpoints?

MURPHY: Because it will change the leadership of the DNC.

SHUSTER: That‘s all you care about, is changing the leadership of the

DNC.

MURPHY: All I care about is the Democratic Party, the democratic process, and Democratic voters.

SHUSTER: Will?

BOWER: Well, I would say it would be great if this could be about issues, but in the last six to eight weeks, Barack Obama has betrayed every issue that he garnered original support for, whether it‘s FISA or offshore oil drilling...

(CROSSTALK)

SHUSTER: But if that‘s the standard, Will, if the standard is he‘s flip-flopped, John McCain went from comprehensive immigration reform to only border security. He went from, I‘m against the Bush tax cuts now—

Now I support the Bush tax cuts. I mean, you could go on and on.

BOWER: Well, I agree. You know, politicians do flip-flop. But what I would say, Barack Obama has gone beyond flip-flopping. This is betrayal of issues. And what I say is at the end of the day, since we can‘t trust him on policy, we do have to revert to issues of character, of trust, of experience.

SHUSTER: Well, you raise a very good point. Let‘s talk about issues of character and trust.

MURPHY: Experience is the big one.

SHUSTER: Well, Derragh, let‘s talk about issues of character and trust. How much money has PUMA raised?

MURPHY: We‘ve raised about $50,000.

SHUSTER: Fifty thousand dollars. Then why did your spokesperson say on national TV a few weeks ago you had raised at least $6 million?

MURPHY: No spokesperson from my group said that.

SHUSTER: Well, it was a person who claimed that they were with PUMA. Only $50,000. Now, do you think that with $50,000 that you represent a wide view of Democrats?

MURPHY: Yes. We‘re not necessarily rich, but we are a large group.

We don‘t need to be rich to be able to be effective.

SHUSTER: All right. Now, what about -- $50,000 is pretty small. So a donation that kicks into $50,000 would be pretty significant. Is it true that you donated to John McCain‘s campaign in 2000?

MURPHY: Yes, I donated $500 to the Republican primary campaign in 2000, and $700 to Hillary Clinton this year.

SHUSTER: OK. So what about that argument, then, that, Look, these are just Republicans who are trying to cause trouble in the Democratic Party?

MURPHY: Well, it‘s just not true. Our largest donation is—there‘s a limit of $2,500. We can only—we are a political action committee. We have to file our forms with the SEC. So we cannot accept donations of that size.

SHUSTER: Right, but $500 is a pretty significant amount of money—in fact, I think, if I‘m doing my math correct, that‘s 1 percent of $50,000, right? Now we‘re comparing apples and oranges.

MURPHY: You mean (INAUDIBLE) $2,000?

SHUSTER: Sure. I mean, your group has only gotten $50,000, but you gave $500 to John McCain back in 2000. I mean, the point is that there‘s not a lot of money behind your group. There are allegations that you guys are Republicans. There are also allegations, well, that you guys don‘t respect the Democratic process because if you did, you would follow advice of Hillary Clinton. And you know what? She‘s saying, Let the process play out. I‘m going to be nominated on the convention floor.

MURPHY: The Democratic process...

SHUSTER: And when the convention is over...

MURPHY: The Democratic process is different...

SHUSTER: ... stand behind Barack Obama. Why is it so difficult for you to do?

BOWER: Well, you know...

MURPHY: Because you‘re confusing the terms democratic process and Democratic Party. The Democratic Party is supposed to represent the voters. The democratic process is what protects voters.

SHUSTER: Right. But I don‘t understand how the voters are not protected when the voters—the majority of the popular vote supported Barack Obama, and the only way that Hillary Clinton can get this nomination is if you convince the superdelegates to somehow change their mind. Is that what you‘re advocating, Will, for this convention?

BOWER: Well, yes. I mean, that‘s what conventions are about. This is a zero-to-zero game right now, and there‘s no nominee until the delegates decide who that nominee is. Barack Obama is only the presumptive nominee. He is not the nominee. It‘s for the delegates to make that decision.

SHUSTER: Well, how can it be following the democratic process, given that Barack Obama got a majority of the popular vote, and you‘re asking the superdelegates to overturn the will of the Democratic voters in all these primaries, and we‘re not even including the caucuses. He got the popular vote in just the primaries, and you want to overturn that.

BOWER: Well, first of all, we‘re working with different numbers.

It‘s my understanding that Hillary Clinton got the popular vote and...

SHUSTER: Well, your understanding is wrong.

BOWER: Well, we‘re using different numbers on that one.

SHUSTER: Right. You guys are using a lot of different numbers throughout this whole argument. But again, the bottom line is Hillary Clinton wants you guys to knock it off. She wants—if you feel as passionately as you do, she wants you to support the Democratic nominee.

MURPHY: Well, that happens on August 28. Yes, August 28 is when we‘ll have the Democratic nominee.

SHUSTER: All right. but will you pledge right here and right now that, A, you‘re not a Republican, and, B, you will support the Democratic nominee, whoever that will be? Derragh?

MURPHY: I will pledge that I‘m not a Republican, absolutely not a Republican, never have been, never will be. I will not support Barack Obama. I won‘t vote for him.

SHUSTER: Will?

BOWER: I‘ve been voting 18 years. I‘ve never once cast a vote for anything but a Democrat. I even campaigned for Michael Dukakis when I was 14 years old. I mean, the Democratic Party has been my home. This is not something that I‘ve been doing lightly. I would say that if Barack Obama is our nominee in November, he‘s not the Democratic nominee, he‘s the DNC‘s nominee.
MURPHY: Exactly.

BOWER: There‘s been a departure between the DNC‘s leadership and they no longer represent the Democratic people.

SHUSTER: Well, I think most Democrats would disagree. I think even most Republicans would disagree with you. In any case, Will Bower, co-founder of Just Say No Deal—you‘re in D.C.—and Derragh Murphy who‘s with PUMA PAC in Boston, we thank you both for coming in.

MURPHY: Thank you.

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