Why would Kucinich make a bad Veep?

I'm not exactly hanging on a thread over the veep selection. I see a lot of people support one guy for one reason or another. Lots of people claiming, "THere is no perfect candidate"

Well, as far as what this party stands for and what a lot of people think it should stand for, Kucinich is it.

And yes, I do understand that in the age of television Dennis probably isn't the most TV friendly candidate (Then again, neither is fucking Dick Cheney).

And no I do not think this post is going to havy any influence on who Obama picks. Nor am I going to flip out on anyone for dissagreeing with me.
BUT!!!!

Want a great attack dog? HE'S IT!!!

Want a guy who'll stick up for the lil guy? HE'S IT!!!

Want a guy who's in line with the party platform? HE'S IT!!!

Want a guy who will investigate Cheney, Bush and Rove? He's it!!!!

As vice-president, I fear he would be "Hubert Humphrey"-ed and kept out of the spotlight and out of policy decisions as much as possible. In the House, especially given his seniority, he would be able to take a much more active role in setting the national agenda.

The truth is that, as beloved as Kooch is around here, the powers that be have effectively marginalized him and the causes he fights for. He's an "issues" politician now. He can be effective, but not on a national ticket.

He is way too easy a target. He would detract from the ticket. He'd be a distraction. Yes, he has great ideals, but he is not a great candidate.

They are going to get whacked and whacked HARD!!!

If you think the right is going to let up because one candidate has "less baggage" over the other you are sorely mistaken. They will find shit and even make shit up out of thin air.

I also think it's foolish for a party to select it's candidates and run from issues because the other side may not like them. In sports they call that "Hearing footsteps" and whenever you play like that you are going to lose.

He is just not a strong candidate. If you think absolutely anyone would be as easy a target, then I guess we might as well have a lotto and pick that way. There are strengths and weaknesses to every candidate, and it would be insanity not to consider those when selecting a running mate.

Do you think they are going to go easy on anyone that's picked?

Look what they are doing to Obama right now. THey have a lot of people convinced that he's a muslim and that the muslims are trying to take this country form the inside out.

Should we now abandon Obama for another candidate

It's the moderate and independent voters. Look, as much as progressives love Dennis, average people don't "get" him. A solid VP choice should bring some votes with him. I've never been in love with Dennis as much as some here. I think he's a good guy but it's hard to take him seriously at times.

Wanna know why those people don't vote?

Because they don't feel voting makes a difference. Guess what?

Dennis' stance on the issues economcally falls right in line with them. Lets be honest here. His stances on the issue are not that far fromwhere this party USED TO STAND. I'm talking about FDR.

Dennis and FDR are very simialar and that's not a bad thing. FDR was elected to the presidency four times. Moving to the center to appeal to moderates and independents have done nothing more than lose this party election after election. YOu could also say it's responsible for the low approval rating in congress.

Moving to the center and trying to suck up to independents is an unelectable strategy.

We'd see headlines on CNN "DEMOCRATS PICK FAR LEFT SENATOR"

He's a cartoon liberal who represents a smallish urban district. His appeal to voters who need to come out to support a win in the presidential election is too small. Do I like his politics and his tenacity vs. Pelosi's appeasement? Hell yes! Would he make a good candidate? Hell no. What about his performance in the primary would lead you to believe he'd be a good candidate?

Electability?

The guy was one of the youngest candidates ever to win an election. Electability is a weak paradigm to work from.

That does not exactly translate to national appeal.

The fact that he wouldn't sell Muni Power and Light.

Despite the fact that the mob put a hit out on him!!! That one decision helped dig Cleveland out of debt. Find me another candidate with the temerity to make such a bold move.

Kooch ain't hated in that town these days.

His help to the ticket would be about the same as Al Sharpton's. Or, on the other side, it would be like McSame picking Dan Burton or James Inhofe. None of those is going to happen.

The stuff that came out of his mouth every time he got a chance to open it.

He said more of substance with less air-time than any other candidate. The MSM decided who the Big Three were going to be, and every debate reflected that decision by how much time the candidates were given to speak. He was the ONLY candidate to talk about single-payer health care; the only candidate to talk about impeachment; the only candidate to talk about immediate withdrawal of all forces from Iraq.

He is, frankly, the only one I can think of who can bring back disaffected Greens - much as I like Obama he's not doing much to grab them. Obama is the one who is reaching into the center for Independents. To balance that, we need someone to bring the liberals back. And, frankly, it doesn't matter what his primary performance was - he's not leading the ticket. The VP is, and always has been, an adjunct to the presidential candidate. As he already has the real moderates as his base, Obama can go one of two ways - pick a VP who will bring in the left, or pick a VP who is based in the DLC - and the second option would be poison to his administration.

Kucinich's appeal is not just the moonbats. Do you remember in the AFL-CIO forum, he was the ONLY candidate to get cheers when he spoke. Obama didn't. Hillary didn't. The little guy who knows and appreciates the real labor movement did.

I personally disagree and feel that his views are some of the most appropriate and decent of most of the politicians. He also speaks openly about some very difficult and controversial topics. Unfortunately, logic, decency, and reason are rare gifts not common ones. The end result is that many Americans think he is odd and a bit crazy.

he does look a bit odd and he talks openly about UFO's. While being fine with me, many many people have trouble with that.

in summary---:unelectable because hes smart.

I don't believe that Kucinich was ever on Obama's long list for a running mate.

That alone is almost enough to disqualify him in many circles.

But he'd be a poor VP candidate, because he always is trying to tell the public the truth. And that definitely disqualifies him.

In the future, we may reach the higher ground needed to elect him at that level.

In these circles it seems who ever dances to the right and less prone to perceived attacks is the one that gets the nod. Despite evidence to the contrary wher no matter who you select they are gonna get smeared and smeared hard.

It's really nihilistic.

He has no significant allies in the House or the Senate. He is not the head of any coalition. He has never led a successful push to pass any meaningful legislation. He's a great gadfly, and a reliable progressive vote (except for when he does dumb shit like vote against S-CHIP because he didn't think it was progressive enough), but has never shown any aptitude for leadership, fundraising, coalition-building, or management.

Not to mention he has abysmal national approval and image ratings; the only people who like him are already either secure Dem votes, or have self-marginalized and refuse to vote for Dems.

You realize that congress has an abysmal approval rating. One that lower than Pres Bush at 11%. Yeah, he's not apart of any coalition. A lot of our "coalitions" have done a terrible job over the years. Especially on issues like healthcare and economics.

Oh and his vote against SCHIP for one that includes immigrants was brilliant. It ensures that all children here have access to vaccinations. That's just common sense. Unless you think it "reasonable" for kids with Hepatitis and Diptheria to be walking around.

Picking a Congressman known for his inability to accomplish things--and who has a favorable rating at one-quarter his unfavorable rating--does not exactly address that problem.

"Accomplishment" is a very broad term. "Getting things done" only holds so much weight depending on what it is that you want to have done.

A lot of what congress has "accomplished" even things that could be condiered a positive. is a joke. Take the minimum wage increase where it goes up to 7.25 in 2009!!!!! It's still waaaayyy behind inflation.

Take the war which they have failed to defund. This congress promised to end this war and still continues to vote to fund the fucking thing.

Kucinich on the ticket would bring in a lot more disaffected independent lefties and greens than he would ever lose the ticket on the right. Those who would not vote Dem with him on the ticket are those who would not vote Dem under any circumstance.

That wouldn't be the case if Obama lost his mind and chose Kucinich as his running mate.

to vote for Obama anyway. That's a winning strategy there.

and Greens? These are the people who decry him as "DLC in drag", a corporatist dressed up as a populist (note: I am not included in that crowd - I like Obama because he is NOT DLC). DK would go a long way to pull those people back in.

The DLC gang has been doing its level best to expel the left from the party. Kucinich, or someone like him, would be a good message that the left is still welcome here.

We need to change it back.

A "Dept. of Peace" would be redundant--and under a Republican administration, would turn into another redundant Dept. of War, just as the State Dept. was.

It was the stupidest move in national politics. He went on Real Time with Bill Maher and stated unequivically that the military option would be off the table under a Kucinich administration.

That exludes Dennis Kucinich from anything approaching credibility in naitonal politics for at least a century.

Uh-huh. How undemocratic! :eyes:

who takes teh military option off the table is D-E-A-D in national politics.

It's a non-starter. The guy will never be more than a Congressman. He couldn't even win a Senate seat.

taking the military option off the table means the military will be used ONLY when there is no other OPTION. It does not mean he would NEVER use the military.

Which is exactly as it should be.

Kucinich said the military option was completely off the table. There was no qualifier. Maher even pushed him on that very point and Kucinich re-iterated the military option was off the table.

Kucinich would not even be considered for a cabinet post after that.

Even the most ardent pacifist will accept the notion of self-defense. Was he talking about no military, anywhere, anytime? Or talking about Iran? Frankly, there is NO reason for us to ever attack Iran. They are not in a position to hurt us. No more than Iraq was.

"military option was off the table" is meaningless without context.

Give me the context. the whole context.

Kooch as a veep candidate can not take the millitary off the table.

That the collective job of congress. It is their job to authorize war.

Secondly; every single millitray skirmish, War and operation we've been involved with since the second WW has been waged in the interest of business first. Taking the millitary option off the table is a very smart move at this juncture as their is not one battle or conflict I see out there that's worth fichting millitarily.

Not to mention one that we can use that option and fight to begin with.

Yeah, looks like Maher really thinks this guy is a bad idea.

Did you watch it?

He's talking about the end of War as an instrument of policy. That means using it as an offensive tool.

Ave. :eyes:

(Perhaps you should modify your screen name?)

Kucinich is comepletely and totally unelectable at a national level.

He is to the Democratic Party what Duncan Hunter is to the Republican Party.

The arrogance in your posts is exceeded only by the insults and condescension.

:eyes:

realities in terms of national politics means Kucinich is a laughingstock on the national stage.

There is a strain of thought whereas it looks like a lot of people with traditional views on how this party should be run are losing out.

The electorate has drasticly changed. Cold War campaigning, red baiting, and doing foreign policy from a business perspective (what's good for corporations) no longer sells. Especially to the younger generation of voters who just don't get that shit. It flies over there heads.

Those kids are much more open to getting the fact that the cold war was very much a business war.

As much as I've read whay you've posted, it sounds like you are too stuck on the limited view of national politics from a pundits perspective.

Obama's message of "change" sells because people are tired of and fed up with the fed govs traditional aspect of governing. People what change. That's the message Obama has won this nomination with. That means people are tired of the limited scope of ideas offered by "traditional candidates" and ideas put on the table.


There is also a huge rebelion against the traditional measures used by the MSM to discuss issues. There is a "silent majority" in this country. Looking ar the way the issues have shaped up with the electorate ie Abortion, Economics, Foreign Policy, Banking Crisis,; All signs point that an FDR like VP which is offered by Kooch is highly favorable to the electorate.

Most folks are aware that the cold war and red baiting policies that keep us securely in this box, with now way out, are not going to get us out of this mess. The Cold War Warriors are no longer appealing to the electorate and their policies can be considered the same.

THe Iraq War is being fought based on a bunch of crotchety old farts stuck on the cold war. Same is true of our domestic economic policies, Social Policies and foreign policies.

It's just not selling. And it won't in this election.

Nevertheless, regardless of who Obama decides on, he goes that route he will lose this election.

It's that simple. They guy could never be anything mroe than what he is because of that stupid position.

There was resistance in this country to fighting in the Gulf War. There was also resistance in this country before we went into Iraq.

Most Americans were against those ventures before they happened. Right wing millitary analysts call it "Vietnam War Syndrome" in that no one in this country was interested in getting involved a skirmish as a result of that war. It was also why they refered to Clinton as a "pussy" when he refused to invade Iraq.

Guess what?

That line of thought with the American public is back in full force once again. The country is war weary and wants this shit to stop. Using the millitary to "secure America" DOESN"T SELL WITH PEOPLE ANYMORE!!!!

McCains view that we stay in Iraq leaves a sour taste in the mouths of the American voter. Just as the concept that we should expand this conflict into Iran ain't selling either.

"There was resistance in this country to fighting in the Gulf War. There was also resistance in this country before we went into Iraq.

Most Americans were against those ventures before they happened."

I call bullshit on both.

Hey man.

Ain't my job to educate you on this shit. The "Vietnam War Syndrome" is something you can easily google as well.

And it actually is incumbant on you to prove your claim that "taking the millitray option off the table" isn't going to sell to the American people. As a matter of fact, Obama is taking over in support from the millitary on his Iraq War stance. You think those guys wanna do another tour of duty in another war?

After so many mothers have lost sons, brothers have lost brothers and sisters, and sons and daughters hjave lost mothers and fathers in this one?

Those guys don't want to go another round with someone else. They've clearly had enough.

YOU back it up.

You are the one blowing bullshit, got called on it, adn won't back it up.

The rest of the work is yours to do;

_____________________________________________________________________________________________
Vietnam Syndrome is a term used in the United States, in public political rhetoric and political analysis, to describe the perceived impact of the domestic controversy over the Vietnam War on US foreign policy after the end of that war in 1975. Since the early 1980s, the combination of a public opinion apparently biased against war, a less interventionist US foreign policy, and a relative absence of American wars and military interventions since 1975, has been dubbed Vietnam Syndrome. The term was coined in the context of the Cold War as part of a conservative and right-wing conservative polemic on US foreign policy, which was at first directed against the Détente policies of the Carter Administration (1977-1981).

_________________________________________________________________

I suppose since your Bill Maher claim fell through the floor you are done offering positive proof on anything.

I'm done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_Syndrome

Typical bullshit artist.

is often derided for offering nothing.

Thank you, sir.

I give your response the utmost consideration.

You made the claim that "Most Americans" were against fighting the Gulf War and the IRaq War.

You have yet to support that assertion.

Unfortunately, he's treated by the pundit-politician class as three steps away from Fidel Castro, and thus he probably never comes up, despite the fact that the only reason he has his Congressional seat is because he's able to get tons of Republicans to vote for him by embracing working class issues very strongly.

He's too "out there" for the media to embrace him and actually take him seriously as a candidate. They'll pick up on the UFO comment and find every liberal/progressive thing he's done in the House and twist it to make him look like a pinko lefty.

Even when pursuing impeachment, the media basically made a JOKE out of him and the proceedings. It wouldn't go any better as the VP candidate.

I have come to respect Dennis very much, but I just don't feel he would be taken seriously. It's unfortunate.

And yes, he doesn't fit the mold for TV friendly candidate, but that's not a disqualifier in my mind. But can you imagine him and 6'+ Barack on stage together?! It just wouldn't look right! To the low-info IdiotAmerican voter, Barack will look like the big scary black man and Dennis would look like the Keebler elf. Good for neither of them!

Too easy for the RW to make him a liability.

:shrug:

What exactly does that mean?

Bending to the right, a contingency of voters that nobody listens to anymore.

It would be interesting if the party tried this; Bending the electorate back to the left. And in this election it is possible. Watch McCain's ads and his advocacy. He's pushing alternative fuels and having a tough time picking a VP on his abortion stances.

This is a GREAT TIME to force that party away from it's hard right paradigm. As a matter of fact, that party is pushed so far on the fringes that even mentioning you're a Republican is a dirty word.

Liberal and lefty are no longer dirty words in America these days. Republican and right wing are considered the dirtiest words along side Spanish Inquisition.

If he was popular in Ohio then I'd say--perfect, but he came in fourth in his state primary in 2004.

eom

Obama must pick someone who can help complete a winning ticket. We can take no chances this time.

I don't think Dennis is that person, although he's done many things that Democrats should be, and are, proud of.

Unfortunately, Dennis is seen by many voters as being over the edge.

Why deal with his bringing disaster run laden as mayor of Cleveland in a campaign when you don't need to?

What are his major legislative accomplishments in the House? I'll give you a hint, empty resolutions that never had a chance of even getting a committee hearing don't count.

What strengths does he bring to the ticket? He has no appeal to moderates or independents who do not know who he is, and when they find out, they will be scared by his fringe politics.

These are just a few reasons why Dennis isn't a good choice and will never be considered for such a position.

FUCKING WANT TO SUCCEDE!!!!

That's what he brings to the table.

Guess what, congress has an 11% approval rating. You want to grab a what is percieved as a successful senator from that group?

you are responding to is saying. So I'll leave it at that. My concerns are different.

be turned off by what they see as extreme views when they are common sense ones. It's sad, but someone like him would probably hurt the ticket. Now I've always said I'd like him to have the opportunity to run as a Presidential candidate.

but you're right on about Kooch!

Far from it.

Kooch, on the issues he's advocated for, is right in line with the Democratic party.

I just think that anyone who believe the right is going to go harder after Kooch then any other Veep choide just doesn't get it.

Whether the choice is Biden, Kaine, Bayh or Kooch they are still going to call them a "Pinko", "Comnmie" or a "Lefty". They arren't going to sit their and go, "Oh, well (insert name here) is close to the center so we really can't say that about him. That would be lying".

The right and the pundits just don't operate like that. Until you take them off their red baiting and cold war politics that's bein going on for 20+ years, nothing is going to change there. AS it staqnds, right now they refer to Obama as a commie anyways.

But as far as both those candidates for Veep goes, Dennis stances are much more in line with the Party platform.

With Dennis, they'd probably scream SOCIALIST! MOONBAT! CRAZY! Obama has lost his mind! LOONEY LEFT! They'd use harsher words. I'd like to think Obama would defend Kooch, though he is to the right of him, too..

Dennis is one of my favorites, though, and he's my dream choice.

The rest of the electorate will follow suit.

Historically, there's more evidence that points to the fact that Kooch would strengthen the ticket. His stances are the same as FDR. As I recall, FDR was elected president FOUR TIMES!!!

Today, a lot of pundits would claim FDR was too far to the left of the electorate. Goes to show how much those guys know.

Sure, those of us with sense understand the man is a moderate to maybe a little left of center and that we have almost no true "liberals" in national office.

Anyone that thinks it is any way realistic to get Kucinich elected to national office is spending too much time with very much like minds. They'll fram him as a batshit version of Dukakis and that will be it.

Really, even Republicans can't actually run to the right, they have to play the moderate shell game too. Hell, I have to pinch myself to be sure I'm not dreaming that Obama has a real chance. Dead center may as well be Marx in this country.

So how is that going to win anybody over to Obama when even his fellow democrats, like some on this board, want to disown him?

If we really took an honest assessment on where some of these posters stand or why they've voted for, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot them were Republicans.

There are aslo a lot of people that knee jerk to what the punidits say on every single topic as well. Many of them the same people who like to also scream and yell that these people are full of shit. Some of them don't even know what they are screaming about or why. Though I can't say that they are entirely on the wrong path either. Either way, when something doesn't work four years ago never discount the impact of their short memories to cause pause and to stop it's repitiion. The same old failed "lets move to the center" startegy will eventually take hold.

Either way, a lot of people here can not discern critisicm of this party from left or from the right. They see any critisicm of the party as being from the Republicans.

SO this board really is a poor barometer. Not to mention that those that are not Democrats don't post here and their vote counts just as much as ours.

This board doesn't really effect anything and is a poor measuring stick.

He doesn't offer the potential to swing states and he's just a poor choice altogether.

and what you stand lose with some of the front runner choices. Especially on issues like abortion and domestic economic policies.

Thats enough to turn off some of the base and have them stay home on election day.

to play on peoples emotions. The media elites as well as the party elites have already declared that issue oriented campaigns to be waaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond the pale.

The fact that issue by issue Mr. Kucinich is far closer to the vast majority of Democrats and the majority of Americans is besides the point.

When the day finally comes when elections are based on a rational examination of the candidates actual positions on actual issues that effect people in day to day life, then someone who thinks a lot like Dennis Kucinich will be elected in a landslide. But that day is certainly not here yet. When it does come, and come it will, there will be a new day dawning in America and for all of humanity.

His being absolutely terrific as a public servant sadly does not preclude his scaring the bejesus out of a lot of what are euphemistically referenced as "low information voters."

Where he has more chance to get his individual message across. Running with Obama wouldn't be a good match.

Hi, Old Crusoe! Love your posts. :hi:

Agree -- Kucinich's presidential runs have kept the focus on urgent issues that the media would almost certainly let go if pressure weren't brought to bear.

Kucinich has battled off corporate skullduggery for many years now. He's been challenged in the primary in his district and whupped all comers.

I love him.

Hope you are well and enjoying the summer-into-fall days there in Philadelphia. Haven't been there in a while but the Morrison at the university is one of the most beautiful botanical gardens/arboretums I've ever seen. That rose garden is a cosmic knockout.

If he can win there, then I have hope that maybe more will catch on to his ideas someday.

I'm hanging in there. Glad Autumn won't be too far away. Thanks for that recommendation - that's a landmark I haven't seen!

Take care. :hi: