********Why I am NOT a PUMA*********(repost)

Note: the moderators have allowed me to repost this. I do NOT want this to turn into a flame war. It is meant as a way to understanding for all sides. I see this election as crucial and the battle is between two diametrically opposed views of the world: prosperity for the very few or prosperity for us all. I thank the moderators for their graciousness in allowing me to repost. I am grateful for your kindness.

Nikki



Why I am NOT a PUMA

PUMA is an acronym employed by a subgroup of Democrats who backed Hillary Clinton in the primaries and are now not backing Barack Obama. The acronym, "Party Unity, My Ass" is a negative response to appeals for unity after Barack Obama clinched the party's nomination. From my own research, many PUMAs actually are Democrats and they are voting "strategically": they may vote McCain/Palin (R), Cynthia McKinney/Rosa Clemente (Green), or other third party; they may write in Hillary Clinton's name in states that allow write-ins. They may also leave the top slots blank and vote for Democrats lower in the ticket. (And, oddly, some PUMAs are voting for Obama/Biden, even though they are angry at how the primaries played out.)

I do not know much about the founders of the PUMA. At least one of them, Darragh Murphy, has been accused of giving money to John McCain's campaign back in 2000. I have since read that she gave him money to counter Dubya's campaign, and that may be true. She wouldn't be the first person trying to hedge her bets in a Presidential election. A pro-choice cousin of mine sent money to Barack Obama and Guiliani this year. (Don't ask, long story.) I do not doubt that there is some GOP involvement with PUMA, but I also do not believe that it is all Republican operatives. The truth is more complicated than that.

PUMA CONCERNS

PUMAs are both male and female, but there are many women involved. The anger is not so much that Hillary didn't win, but that PUMAs perceive Obama has having "cheated" his way into the nomination. (I know, I know, but bear with me.) PUMAs point out that Hillary won the states in which primaries were held (especially the big states), but that Obama mostly won the states in which caucuses were held. Caucuses are more unruly and there is more opportunity for voter fraud. There are some reports of caucus fraud online that I cannot verify in terms of their truth value, so I will not post the links here. It is important to know, however, that an issue that all DUers care about, voter fraud, is part of the PUMA concerns. Another issue is the odd way in which the popular vote counted--and didn't count--towards the delegate count. The weirdest of these is the state of Nevada, where Hillary won the popular vote but Barack won the delegate vote. The Republicans didn't have this kind of a problem since they have a "winner take all system" in the primaries. Finally, the PUMAs seem to be very upset over the way that Florida and Michigan played out. I will not go through this again, I will merely put it out there.

Another PUMA concern is racism, or more properly, the accusations of racism to destroy political opponents. Anyone who was on DU during the primaries remembers the heightened atmosphere here and the accusations of racism. For example, Senator Clinton pointed out that Lyndon Johnson was instrumental in getting the Civil Rights legislation that African Americans had been fighting for passed, and equality under the law the reality. Some on DU felt that this statement was demeaning to African Americans, but, historically, it is accurate. For whatever reasons, Johnson twisted arms (and probably other things ) to get the 1964 act into law. The NAACP had been around since the early 20th century, but it did take a sympathetic (white) President to get the dream to become reality. The same is true, by the way, for women's rights. Since 1848, American feminists had been fighting for legal rights, and it was a male President who managed to make that happen. There is no shame in that and Johnson, whatever wiley old cuss he was in life, should be honored posthumously for putting his efforts into making legal equality happen.

At any rate, DU was filled with accusations that Senator Clinton was a racist, based on the Lyndon Johnson remark. There are all kinds of other examples, but I remember glancing at DU at the time, and getting sick to my stomach at the accusations against the Clintons. The Clintons as racists?

I have a dear friend who works for the federal government in Washington. She is an African American female and she says that the Clinton era was the absolute best for her and for other African Americans in high positions. She and I talk frequently, and she has been dismayed since George W. took office. During the Clinton 90's, high powered committees and political appointee positions were filled with people of color and women. As soon as Bush came in, it all became white and male. Bush cronies like Michael Brown of FEMA and Kevin Martin of the FCC. Spoiled silver spooners that didn't have a chance in hell of understanding what the government actually did. So, before you complain about the "racist" Clintons, you need to understand that the Clinton administration was probably the single most diverse administration to date. I trusted either Hillary or Barack to bring that back. I still do.

MY CONCERNS

For a long time, I avoided this board. Then, some wonderful DUer paid for my membership and got me a star, and it reminded me of all the wonderful people I had met on this board. That is why I came back and started posting again. But I have to tell you that the overt accusations of racism and the female-oriented slamming of Hillary and her supporters still made it hard for me to come back. I am a woman in my 40's. This is the same age range as a lot of the PUMAs. I am a teacher and have a master's degree. I care a great deal about our failing schools, the kids I teach every day, the violence and the poverty. When the GOP talks about vouchers and school choice I want to throttle them and say, "You have excellent teachers here. You have buildings, you have some great programs. You need to properly FUND these things and you need to help out these neighborhoods. " As a teacher, I can help a student learn to write essays; I cannot solve his or her poverty problem. It is beyond my ability to fix.

Anyway, I can remember a time when the idea of a female president seemed impossible. I can remember a time when African Americans and women worked together and weren't at each others' throats. And I can remember a time when it was normal to use the word "colored" (I was a little kid then); when using the n-word and other anti-Black slurs was not uncommon among certain whites, even in polite conversation; and I remember when using words for the female anatomy, either technical or the c-word slur, was completely unacceptable. Nowadays, things have shifted. Anti-Black slurs are anathema--and thank God for this. This is great, great victory. But, unfortunately, suddenly, it's ok, in polite mixed company to talk about breasts, and vaginas, and to use the c-word. I don't understand what happened. Maybe it's a Gen-X thing, but it sounds crass, crude and insulting to me personally.

Why I am saying all this? Because I am the age range of your PUMAs. I can tell you that accusing them of "voting with their vaginas" will BACKFIRE. It will not shame them into voting for Barack. It will make them think that you are crude and insulting and give them even MORE reason to vote against Obama/Biden. Insulting Sarah Palin on the basis of her gender will not work either. PUMAs will assume that you are just misogynists in general. An misogyny will NOT work with PUMAs. It is a stupid, stupid thing to do.


WHY I AM NOT A PUMA

So considering my age and my discomfort with the race-baiting on DU, why am I not a PUMA? I could easily have said "to hell with Democratic Party" when watched the c-word in post titles here; when I watched Keith Olbermann slam Hillary Clinton in ways that made no sense to me. I could have taken it very personally when Obama's campaign said that they weren't worried about getting the women's vote because pro-choice women had nowhere else to go. I could have said gotten upset when I watched reproductive rights in the Democratic platform softened with language to appease anti-choice types, and when the gay community had to FIGHT to get included in the second draft of the platform. I could have taken it personally that the Clintons, whom I so admired, were being dragged through the mud as racists. Racists? When there's a whole GOP out there???

And I could have gotten personally insulted by the posters here who accused women of "voting with their vaginas" and one poster who actually put up a thread with a picture of a modified voting booth in it. I could have been personally insulted at all the cruelty directed towards Sarah Palin AS A WOMAN. The sexist questions: "Who's gonna take care of her kids?" "Do her breasts look large enough to be lactating" and "Her water broke on the plane" (which is not true--she was leaking fluid which is different.) I thought to myself, as a feminist, abortion rights are all about the government staying out of a woman's body and here is DU verbally invading this woman's biology and that of her daughter. I can read more about Sarah Palin's uterus on DU than I EVER, EVER wanted to know.

So why haven't I up and left? Why haven't I joined Geraldine Ferraro? Why haven't I changed my party to Green or decided to vote for the gun-toting hockey mom of song and story?



IT'S THE PLATFORM, STUPID

When I read the Democratic platform as it now stands, it is much closer in line with my ideals and what I want for my country, my nation, my students, my family, than anything the GOP has come up with. To me, the Democratic Platform is the best hope for the vanishing middle class, the struggling working class, the increasing numbers of poor. It is the best hope for equal rights for all people and all families. It's not perfect; gay rights needs to be better represented and foreign policy in the Middle East needs to be better thought out. But the Democratic Platform is the only one that helps the people who need it and can make society better for ALL, not just a small wealthy minority.

That's why I am voting Democratic this year.


I know that some PUMAs are counting on a Democratically controlled House and Senate to counteract a McCain/Palin ticket, especially when it comes to Supreme Court picks and privacy concerns. In my mind, that is old thinking. Under Bush, the executive branch has begun to pick up more power than it ever should have had. I do not know if a Democratic Congress can be as effective against a Republican President and Vice President in 2009 as it could have been in 1989. It's a different power dynamic, and I, for one, can't put my faith in it.


REACHING OUT TO PUMAs

So far on this board, PUMAs have been vilified, and sometimes in crude ways. This is the way to PUSH THEM AWAY. Is that what you want to do? You want to win, right? Calling PUMA's filthy names will not do it. You know many PUMAs read this board. I know a PUMA in real life, and I argue with her every day. I think I almost have her convinced. And you know how I convinced her? It wasn't by insulting her private parts. God no. It was by talking about the platforms. Platforms reflect our values, what we think is important. It was day after day saying, "Who do you think will help the kids we teach? Who do you think will try to get them health care?" I copied out the Democratic Platform and pointed out how certain portions were vital to us. She's coming around.

AND THAT IS HOW WE DO IT

We go back to our roots, our values. We take care of the old, the sick the poor. The GOP takes care of the big corporations. We want to raise society from the ground up. The GOP wants to drown us with a rising tide that they say will lift all boats. That never works.

We need every vote this year. We need the Hillary voters who left. It isn't the majority of Hillary voters, but it's enough to turn this election. We NEED them. We need to admit we need them and not act like a bunch of spoiled, foul-mouthed babies. Pretending to be Cartman from South Park will get you NOTHING. This is not GenX, Gen Y or anyone later than that. These are people in their 40s, 50s, and 60s who deserve respect.

So you gently remind them of who we are as Democrats.

What our values are.

What we believe in.

And the kind of world we want to have.

And leave for our children.

And for seven generations beyond.



Thank you,

Nikki Stone

I appreciate your kind response.

I say that as an Obama supporter who also appreciates Hillary Clinton.

I'm realizing that I didn't used to understand Clinton supporters' feelings very well...but I am starting to thanks to well-written posts like yours.

We are at a crossroads here and we need to go in the right direction. We need to understand what happened and do the best we can to remind people why we are Democrats and what we believe.

That change starts with our own attitudes. And that we need to foster an inclusive rather than disclusive environment.

Also the accusation of "Racist" isn't something we ever should throw around so wrecklessly as DU did in the primaries. (And this wasn't just limited to DU). I think this is the one thing that fuels the PUMAs anger. And I whole-heartedly agree, if someone called me a racist in one breath and asked me to support their candidate in the next, I might be pretty hot.

Trying to shame and humiiate is worse than useless.

They aren't democrats. PERIOD.

Not a single one of those idiots deserve to have their asses kissed and they should have to hear TO THEIR FACES what lowlife scum they really are.

And they are Democrats, most of them.

Take a deep breath and release...

You are part of the problem.

k&r

I am out busting my ass up to five days a week working on Obama's campaign.

While I'm out getting blisters on my feet and on my knuckles, what the fuck are PUMA's doing for the party? Nothing more than being disruptive distractions. I've seen nothing but vile disgusting propaganda come from anything PUMA. How any Democrat can be sympathetic to or defend the actions of these scum is beyond me.

They can all kiss MY ass.

We are both trying to get Democrats into the White House. We NEED a Democratic administration this year. It has been eight hellish years with these silver-spoon babies who let over 1000 people die in New Orleans.

I am trying to reclaim PUMA votes because we need them. And you are out there busting your ass for Obama and I thank you for that. I used to do a lot of voter registration when I was younger and my knees didn't hurt so much. (I had an injury to my right knee and it's hard to do walking for long periods of time.) I so appreciate all the work you are doing.

I am just saying that if we can open the door and try to understand what happen, we can take many of the PUMA votes back. Most PUMAs do not believe in forcing a rape victim to carry the rapist's fetus to term. Most PUMAs do not believe that gays can be turned straight by someone's church--or by any other means. By choosing Palin, McCain has made the GOP ticket an extremist fundamentalist ticket and we can get our Hillary voters back if we understand the dynamic and stop acting like they don't have a legitimate side: they do. But we all need to join together to BEAT this fundie ticket that will return coathangers to our daughters and closets to our gay community.

I have never in my many decades of voting seen such separatism born of the inability to accept the results of a democratic primary.

For the record, my heart breaks for Edwards' supporters in particular who took a suckerpunch to the gut with the primary loss and subsequent in-your-face exposure of the affair. That's who I feel for in this equation.

We have a common purpose now and the epic battle ahead must be our focus.

We can pick up those votes. Or are you giving up?

Well as a Kucinich supporter I think we sort of got the mainstream media beat down worse than Clinton ever got. At least they talked about her. Anytime Kucinich was even mentioned or interviewed the eventual question would be: "when will he (you) quit?"

The debate moderators ignored him or ridiculed him with absurd questions about UFO's and then went back to ignoring him. He was one of the few candidates to show a significant courage in his convictions over soundbite and for that he was handed his hat.

So, while I feel for any Hillary supporters that think they were somehow beaten over by the process, I think she was given a far better shake than my candidate. She had a run on the Whitehouse that was two years or longer and even when the delegate count clearly and decisively turned against her she was rarely ever asked: "When will you quit?"

I understand the feeling of supporting a candidate that doesnt make it through the primary process. I have a history of my preferred candidates getting beaten out by DLC corporate friendly tactics, often with the active approval of the media (or a complete black out of my candidate of choice). But the short of it is that we are democrats and I have backed third party candidates occasionally before when the reek of corporate megabucks exceeded my tolerance and usually it was merely a cathardic gesture that amounted to nothing.

I cannot understand the logic of voting McPalin if you are denied Hillary. It isn't about policy in that case. I can think of no democratic platform that would be improved by a McCain ticket and the idea that balancing a democratic legislature with a republican president is absurd at best. We have taken a hard right turn in this country with Bush (and I would argue we have been on an economic right turn since Nixon) and creating some sort of do-nothing balance will not solve this problem.

Again I understand not getting the candidate of your choice, I would only ask that you try to decide what was it about Hillary that drew you to vote for her and decide what is truly important to you.

..if they are unable to see that a vote for McCain is a vote against progressive ideals then they deserve the president we wind up with. The burden of responsibility is on them to come to terms with their anger and figure out who better represents their interests. We shouldn't have to spell it out for them. They aren't children.

Stubborn righteousness will just ensure that those votes go to other parties.

they can't be very principled to begin with. And I am not wasting my time nor my breath trying to remind them. Their selfishness speaks volumes.

Regards

And I think you are being a little short-sighted here. Don't you want their votes? Do you really want them to support Sarah Palin? Do you really want to have women in your life forced to carry a rapist's baby?

Think about it. We have a lot to lose and we cannot afford to be stubborn and angry. We NEED them.

I've seen it before. There's nothing uglier than when a sense of entitlement overwhelms what ought to be one's principles. If they can't vote their principles than to hell with them. I'm not kissing their asses to get them to do the right thing.

And they need to get over that sense of entitlement. It's not serving them well at all.

Regards

And if you think that, then no wonder you can't see my point. No one is entitled to a position on a political ticket. And I don't think that was the point.

But, now the fight is different. We need these votes to be peeled away from Palin. We need to invite the PUMAs back and understand that they have grievances but that we all need to win.

I don't want the Dems to lose because some Hillary voters felt unwelcome in this party and voted for Palin as a result. I have been actively working on a friend of mine who is a PUMA and I found that understanding goes a long way. Fighting and animosity do not.

No one is entitled to a position yet the PUMAs talk of Obama stealing the nomination or cheating. That implies that he either 1. Took something to which he was not entitled or 2. Did something shady in order to take something he wouldn't have gotten anyway. THat would be indicative of an entitlement mindset would it not? But as I've said if their sense of entitlement blinds them to reason so they that will fall for blatant tokenism I really don't have anything to say to them. They know why the Republicans are bad and why Democrats are 1000 times better. These are supposedly grown women. If the party platforms doesn't tell them which party welcomes women I damn sure can't convince them.

Regards

I told you it wasn't about entitlement. I'm a little confused here.

That is my point. The problem is, the PUMAs don't believe that. Until they do there's really no point in bothering with them.

Regards

And with that I disagree.

But like I said, that's the old battle. We may disagree about this one and that is ok. I can live with that.

What I can't live with is a GOP victory in November. That's what this thread is for--to help forge some unity, bring some of these voters back. In their heart of hearts, most PUMAs can't stomach an anti-choice candidate who is on record as saying that she would make her daughter carry a rapist's fetus to term. We can get these voters back by respecting them and by reminding them of the PLATFORM.

The PLATFORM is more important than anyone else's feelings. That's my point.

In the end, in the privacy of the voting booth casting their secret ballot, THEY WILL VOTE OBAMA!!

Only the cattiest of PUMA's will vote Cain. Also the ones who believe that voting CAIN will get them President Hillary in 2012, those PUMAS are willing to SELL OUT their country for 4 years?? TRAITORS!

I think it is really important to respect and take back OUR voters. WE HAVE TO WIN THIS YEAR. My students can't take another 4 years of GOP rule and neither can I.

Welcome to DU.

The saddest thing to me is that there are many here that aren't concerned about those PUMAs who will vote Obama, but very unhappily,
or even out of fear or duress, not out of true support for him. Millions of women are afraid, and I am concerned that those PUMA votes that do go to Obama will be immediately taken for granted, absolutely unappreciated, and that the issues that caused the concerns and fears will continue to be ignored or go unaddressed. No one likes to feel that their voice is unheard.

At least, that is what I am seeming to hear from so many on this board. No hand of understanding or persuasion ever seems
to reach out.

Yes, the PLATFORM is the issue. The PLATFORM must strongly address the issues of concern to women and that PLATFORM must
be stressed. Women need to see that no matter what, the Democratic Platform is in their best interests. These women must
reassured that their voices have not been silenced, that they will be heard, that someone cares--that they WILL NOT BE TAKEN FOR
GRANTED.

But the animosity and misogyny here is harrowing and frightening.

"Just vote for Obama--that's all we want to hear from you. You have concerns? Well just get over it-- we don't give a damn. Just vote. We don't care about you after that. After you vote, just go straight to hell." That's what I seem to be hearing, not any sincere attempt at getting healing for the Democratic Party. That's the danger. Will we continue to have a fractured Party
after the election? How will Obama govern with the Party torn apart? Disaffected people ignored only get angrier.

If that's the attitude now, that these women can "go to hell," what happens in 2012 when Obama comes up for re-election?

It is exactly the attitude you are talking about that I am trying to change here. We need everyone this year. And you don't gain people's votes by bashing them repeatedly.

Somehow, I don't think Obama would actually approve of all that is being done in his name. I know he is better than that.

By definition a "PUMA" is NOT voting for Obama. Why are they here? To complain?

They are looking for ATTENTION, what ACTUAL percentage of Hillary voters will vote for McCain???

I would guess 5-7%. The squeaky wheel always gets the grease though. Rove and his marionettes in the media are trying to make hay out of the pumas, that may help them convert swing voters, that's more what we should be worried about. This PUMA fantasy is a lot of sour grapes, she lost FAIR and SQUARE. Now we have to beg them to vote for the democrat who won?? What am I missing here?

Attention whore, thy name is PUMA.

I wouldn't be surprised if half the "PUMA'S" are actually Republicans looking to stir up dissension. They're doing a pretty good job of it.

There are some who are voting Green and some who are voting McCain or writing in HIllary's name.

By definition a "PUMA" is NOT voting for Obama. Why are they here? To complain?

They are looking for ATTENTION, what ACTUAL percentage of Hillary voters will vote for McCain???

I would guess 5-7%. The squeaky wheel always gets the grease though. Rove and his marionettes in the media are trying to make hay out of the pumas, that may help them convert swing voters, that's more what we should be worried about. This PUMA fantasy is a lot of sour grapes, she lost FAIR and SQUARE. Now we have to beg them to vote for the democrat who won?? What am I missing here?

Attention whore, thy name is PUMA.

I wouldn't be surprised if half the "PUMA'S" are actually Republicans looking to stir up dissension. They're doing a pretty good job of it.

This is politics, not some purity test. Yours is a self oriented politics, all about how it makes you feel, not about gaining victory of Barack Obama and other Democratic candidate.
If everybody were like you, we'd have no Party.

It's practical and important. There is no purity test and not about my feelings at all. If you want Barack Obama to win, we need those votes. That's all I'm saying.

If everyone were like me, there wouldn't be any party divisions because I respect the viewpoints of others and I understand that EVERY VOTE COUNTS. I would rather WIN than be right. How about you?

This is not about purity, it's about Democrats voting their principles. These PUMAs are voting the opposite of what they claim to stand up for. So either they don't stand for what they say they stand for in which case to hell with them; or their racists to which I also say to hell with them.

Do you think black people would have reacted the these women did if Obama had lost? No. And it wouldn't have taken anywhere near as much begging and pleading to get most black people to vote for the Democratic ticket. But black people have been voting mostly Democratic for decades and it's assumed that the black vote will be there for the Democratic party. It's also I might add why younger black people who register to vote are registering independent. No one wants to be taken for granted and this past election season has seriously opened people's eyes to exactly what fellow Democrats really think. We're good enough to run for local office, good enough to run for statewide office, good enough for federal office as long as we don't try to head the ticket. Then it's a bloody problem.

The fate of the country is at stake. Have they not been paying attention? If they're going to vote against their principles then to hell with them. I don't have the time nor the inclination to spend this late in the game kissing the butts of women too stupid and spiteful to vote for the principles they claim to stand for, if that is they really stood for those principles in the first place. And frankly, if they vote McLame it's painfully obvious that they don't and they didn't.

Regards

And they don't need to be coddled either, where do you get that from? They are
needed and more so with each passing day. They were called racists, Republicans, freepers, unnecessary, whiners and told to get over it, not by Republicans but by there own party. We run the risk of losing to the Republicans if we can't stop tearing up our own.

They aren't real Democrats.

They have done nothing that deserves any respect or ass kissing. Quite the opposite in fact.

There is nothing to be gained by dancing this dance with these disruptors. They are nothing more than a distraction. All 12 of em.

It's important to get them back. Otherwise, Rove wins.

I read what the disgusting PUMAs have to say, and they deserve nothing but contempt. I suggest that anyone falling for the OP's post read the Hillary Clinton Forum. These people are truly reprehensible and they do not share democratic values. Talk about mindless idolization.

Furthermore, very few people on DU accused the Clintons of racism. They did accuse them of using race in a cynical way. Different story.

And in terms of accusing the Clintons of racism, there were many threads on it.

Unfortunately the rudest and loudest on the board will post insults until it is just turned into a flamefest. They refuse to listen, refuse to even have an open mind to other viewpoints. I would bet that most of those bashing did not even read your entire thread.

Just keep your chin up, keep fighting for our party, keep bringing people back, keep talking to those around you, especially those still angry over the primary and put those types of posters who are nasty towards you on ignore.

Glad to recommend this post.

of the primary?

I mean really, that's what is going here. Why else include the "PUMA CONCERNS" paragraph when its a done deal now?

It's just angry venting after everyone had pretty much moved on. This sense of entitlement is stunning and it borders on racism.

Honestly, I just don't see this happening if Clinton narrowly lost to a good looking white guy. PUMAs just can't stand the fact that Obama wasn't the humble little black boy who "waited his turn". He aggressivley went after what he wanted (like any American should) and it infuriates them. In their minds the we blacks should be more gracious after all the Democrats have done for us.

And accusing people of racism is part of what got the party into this mess to begin with. That plays into Rove's hands.

I couldn't see what the poster wrote, but thank you for sticking up for me.

This is going to be a rough couple months. I think folks have convinced themselves that we will have an easy win.

We must not become complacent. We need every vote. We need to understand others in order to change their minds.

Let me explain.

I teach in a year-round school and our track started in July. This was the height of the angry season after the primary, and my PUMA friend (a fellow teacher who identified herself that way) was trying to get me to join her. I was a Clinton supporter, but I could have gone with any of the candidates as long as we won this one. Remember back then it was a no-lose year for the Democrats, so I wasn't very worried when my friend said she was supporting McCain. I told her I didn't agree with her but that was that. (It kept peace at the lunch table.) I did ask her why she thought McCain would be any better than Bush, and she told me that McCain was more of a centrist, that Hillary respected him, and that he would no doubt pick a centrist VP, like Ridge. I told her to look at the platform, but she seemed convinced that McCain would lead from the center and was ok with that.

Then, this past week, McCain picks an anti-woman, anti-choice whackadoodle named Sarah Palin. I noticed that my friend was, at first, enthusiastic about the choice because Palin was a woman, but when Palin's views became known (like no abortion, even in circumstances of rape, and her support for the ex-gay movement), my friend began to show signs of buyers' remorse. That was when I realized there was an opportunity. She is still being stubborn (she's angry) and she points out a lot of the caucus fraud and the false accusations about racism. She definitely does not like Obama at all. But it has been the discussion of the platform that is bringing her around. OK, we won't have Hillary's health care plan, but Obama has some kind of health care plan and McCain doesn't. Obama may seem a little unsure about abortion rights, but Palin would get rid of them all under practically every condition. With Obama, we still have a safe Planned Parenthood. And so on.

This is where I am coming from. Now, I\oif I were acting like a spoiled child with an attitude problem (like some on DU), my friend wouldn't even consider my arguments. But because I have respected her viewpoint all along, she is now beginning to come around.

We can get PUMAs back into the fold because underneath it all, they share our values and they really don't share Republican values. That's my message here.

I will definitely keep your essays in mind during my next encounter with a possible future Obama voter.

Copy out the Democratic Platform:

http://www.demconvention.com/the-democratic-platform/

I'm pretty sure that there is NO WAY to go back and redo the primary. STRAWMAN! Nothing that you wrote makes any sense what-so-ever except that you get to trot out the bullshit racism card again. It's a lie and it always was a lie but it sure is a good way to smack people around if you don't agree with them.

We need to get the Democratic nominee elected, why are YOU still fighting the primaries.

That is the attitude that these PUMAs have and I for one will not stomach it. Clearly their principles mean not a damn thing if they are seriously considering voting for a ticket that represents the complete opposite of what they claim to stand for.

Regards

But the attitude that you are expressing right now is EXACTLY the wrong one to have. We NEED their votes. Don't chase them away by being petulant.

and anyone who will vote the opposite of their principles in this election either have no principles or are straight racists and either way I'm not remotely interested in wasting my time on them. You can play nice with jackasses. I am not so inclined.

REgards

Insulting people does not work. It only alienates people. And quite frankly, this election is important to LOTS of people. You are being selfish by letting your personal feelings throw away Democrats that we can bring back to the fold. I don't want my students that I teach to lose a decent public education because your feelings are hurt. I work in a Title One school with 70% of the kids on free school lunch (below the poverty line). You are going to throw away the futures of these children by not going after votes that WE CAN GET because your feelings are hurt?

I also didn't like the accusations of cheating thrown at Obama but it's done and they damn sure didn't take my feelings into account. I'm pretty sure that if Obama were white they wouldn't have made such a disgusting accusation. But it's so easy to accuse a black man because you know how those black people are right? They're generally dishonest anyway, it's a easy sell. :sarcasm:

Why don't you tell the PUMAs about the future of the children which they seem to be willing to throw away because they've decided to behave like spoiled children instead of adults? I am not the one threatening to vote for the ass-backward party because the black man won.

And if they are so worried about placing a protest vote why don't they vote Green? There are two women on that ticket. Let me guess, those are women of color can't do that because then no one would learn their lesson. What exactly is this so-called lesson again? Because the PUMA arguments seem to contain nothing more than disgusting accusations of cheating and not even thinly veiled racist rantings. The PUMA argument has nothing to do with sexism and everything to do with a highly evolved sense of entitlement. They think that black people are good enough to vote for them but not good enough to head the ticket. So much so that they'd risk the future of the children you tried to lay at my feet in order to spite a party that's a hell of a lot more supportive of women than the party they're threatening to vote for. So if they don't like being accused of being racists, that's too damn bad for them as far as I'm concerned they can kiss my black ass.

Regards

:thumbsup:

I am sorry that you feel hurt, and trust me, this primary season has been unsettling for a lot of us. I myself just avoided DU and other political sites for most of the primaries. It just made me sick. I understand how you feel and I know that Obama has taken a lot of unfair hits. This whole "Muslim" smear drives me crazy, but that's another story. Anyway, I appreciate how you feel, and I am heartsick at what I have seen this year. You sound like a good Democrat who really cares about the future of this country. So do I.

And believe it or not, so do a lot of PUMAs. A lot of PUMAs (from what I have seen in my very unscientific internet research) are voting Green, but in closely contested states (like OH, PA, etc.) a Green vote is as damaging as a GOP vote. That's why we need them back.

"Inadequate black man."

I'm just saying...

Regards

Now, as to your quote, where did this come from? It did not come from any of my posts so I don't understand why it's here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KACQuZVAE3s

And then she went on Faux to defend it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIIDtlFzAkg

And then she shows up during the DNC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ5YYnfYmKs

The perfect illustration of my disdain for PUMAs. Accusations of cheating, implying Obama was the one being sexist and basically claiming that Obama didn't wait his turn. Entitlement, racism, and general assholery in one ugly package. Exactly by I have nothing to say to PUMAs.

Regards

I can see why you don't feel it's worth your time. But I think it's worth mine and it's worth the election in November.

Peace.

it is good to know someone GETS it

Hell of a great post. Could be an OP.

MPK

Thank you.

I think you are a hell of a great poster. But I've spent the summer (I teach and had free time) reading PUMA blogs, MANY of them former DU posters. They don't want to be wooed and treated nice. They really are ready to throw over and vote McCain. Maybe it's not enough to do us damage. But they did enough damage to poison the wells here at DU while they were still here.

I liked the spirit of the post by RainyB I was replying to and hope that there will be more dialogue among those lines here. I started work at 8 am this day and am a little goofy, so I don't know if that is what you were looking for.

MPK

Thank you for the compliment. I know how discouraging this election season has been and the summer was the worst. But it's because of Palin that we may have a chance to bring some people back and that is why I posted.

I also appreciated RainyB's posts. She is very honest and up front and I can have a dialogue with that. I know that I get things wrong too so I hope you are right and there will be more posts by her and like hers.

Don't worry about being goofy. I am at home today with a bum knee and am on pain meds. (Now that's goofy!)

Good wishes,

Nikki

We need to WIN this one!

To the rest of your screed..

:rofl:

I really appreciate it. :)

:)

I kept wondering why I was being called a "PUMA" when I questioned something here recently. I had to look up what that stood for. And it was SO not me!

Anyone that clings to the PUMA thing now has become either a cartoon or a republican. There is no way that anyone could nurse bitter feelings for so long and with such disregard for everything we Hillary supporters stood for. I chose to put the attacks and name calling I endured here, and embrace the Obama/Biden ticket because I believe they are what we need right now, AND the platform is exactly what I believe in.

And I agree that there are some PUMAs that were life-long Democrats, I know a few as well. The choice of Palin has brought them back to their senses, but I don't think the younger posters on DU and the others sites have any idea what it meant to people who have been working for Democratic and civil rights causes for decades, to be called racist (and yes, they were called racist among other things.) I think Palin is an excellent opportunity to bring them back into the Party, because of the stark differences in platform.

Me? I am just a tiny speck in the world -- and my hurt feelings are not going to get in the way of saving our economy, our Country, or our Planet.

And there are still wonderful people on this board.

:hi:

world because people were treated poorly.

If your best interests are served by voting for the Democratic Party's nominees and platform, good for you, but if you simply cannot do that, I will mourn your loss in an appropriate manner.



Time to act like adults.

I understand how you feel, but you have to get beyond your feelings and try to understand that we could lose this one and I DON'T WANT TO LOSE this year. There is just too damned much at stake. We've got to reclaim our own, and if that means hearing them out and understanding their side in the matter, then I am all for that.

vote for the Democratic Party's nominee.

They've wasted enough time, space and effort.

Fuck em. Let them go work for Bob Barr for all I care.

Do you really want their votes going to a whackadoodle like Palin?

is anywhere CLOSE to reality.

There are also a couple of people on this thread who were either PUMA or angry about the primaries and have come back to vote Democrat. I know that we can get those votes back. We need them and we can get them.

there is no amount of ass kissing, hand holding, begging or telling them they are precious and unique snowflakes, different from all others that are loved above all else.

My disgust at individuals who's vanity and inflated self importance are more important than saving the United States of America from the likes of Cheney, Mooselini and her grampa is beyond category.

Fuck them all to hell.

When you respect others and they know you respect them, then it is far easier to talk about the issues.

If you disrespect people, you've lost the battle before you start.

Thier lack respect for the Democratic party and what it stands for is all that needs to be said.

I am sorry you can't see the benefit in a positive approach.

except the part where everyone kisses the PUMA DINO asses.

Please.

Fuck the Pumas!

Double posting.

Yet all of a sudden THIS one they're going to sit out. What's that all about? I think I know and it's disgusting. And I've seen plenty of it on the PUMA site. The word "uppity" is thrown around quite a bit. Lotta Harriet Christians among the PUMAs, that's all I'm saying. And if that offends you too bad. I know some white people are getting tired of hearing about it, but just remember that you're lucky to be in that position.

As for their concerns about voter fraud at the caucuses, what a pile of crap. Internet rumors? I saw one where people were claiming that undocumented immigrants were voting for Hillary in the Vegas at large caucuses, after being promised citizenship. I give that about as much credibility as those the PUMAs are citing. And they sure had no problems with caucuses when Bill was winning them in 92.

As for MI and FL, Clinton agreed to the rules along with everyone else, months before they held their primaries. She is on record and on video doing so.

"Many of these PUMAs held their noses and voted for a candidate they didn't like for decades"

WTF? You're clearly talking directly out of your ass because none of what you just said has any grounding in reality.

That's what this post was about. I know how you feel. I have been talking to this PUMA friend of mine since July when school started (I teach year round school) and it has been frustrating.

But Palin's selection gives us an opening. It really does. I copied out the Democratic platform and went through it with her. She really IS a Democrat at heart and as much as she felt that Hillary was cheated during the primaries, she had second thoughts when Palin was selected. THAT IS OUR OPENING.

We need to understand and we need to persuade. It's crucial. I don't know what 4 more years of Republican rule is going to do to my students. And I don't want to find out.

out there, however, that all PUMAs are Democrats.

Imho, I don't think they are.

Some may be, but there is a faction of them that
come across as not caring about the common good
of our country and people, i.e. it's all about what they
want and to hell with everyone else.

That's not what we are about.

I wouldn't put ANYTHING past Rove and his gang-
look at the vile crap they spread about McCain's little girl
back in 2000.That was the lowest of the low
for those bottom feeders.

Not to mention what they did to Kerry in 2004.

They will do ANYTHING to divide and spread
smears and fears.

Just saying- let's not spending too much time trying to
court possible Rovian plants.

The true Hillary supporters? - Yes- Absolutely!
Let's ALL help take our country back.

had a reason for their anger and want to punish the DNC and the party for the sexism found right here on this board and NOTHING was done about it. There are still people telling them to sit down and shut up. Brilliant move BTW, I'm sure they'll come running back to such a supportive atmosphere.

Many like me just can't sit it out or vote for the enemy because I recognize that there is too much at stake. There is nothing about the Republican platform that I can somehow turn into a plus. But I can understand people's reluctance to have anything to do with a party or it's members that can say, get over it or we don't need you. We do need them, I for one can't take another minute let alone 4 more years of Republican rule.

They want to punish Obama for what the media did? I mean I'm used to idiots thinking that all black people know one another and can speak for one another but now you're putting the responsibility of the whole damn media on him too? Unbelievable!

PUMAs are not democrats and a great many of them who are are racists and I say fuck them all. Real Democrats who see the importance of not handing the White House to the Republicans have been on board for awhile now. The rest never will be.

The new battle is to say, "We know some problems happened during the primary. We are sorry for our part in it. But now we have to get together as Democrats. Look, here is our platform. This is far better for our future, for our nation, for our world, than the GOP platform is."

This is what needs to be done. Otherwise, McCain, Palin and Karl Rove win.

This is the battle PUMAs have been fighting and they haven't stopped. I see no reason why Obama should apologize for anything he didn't do. I don't see Clinton apologizing for the blatant racism displayed by the media. This is ridiculous!

Obama owes PUMAs no apology. They owe him a HUGE one. But I don't know anyone who will be holding their breath waiting for one.

Regards

We need to peel some PUMAs away from Palin. That is my goal. That is the new battle.

Good.

That leaves the possibility that some may be Rovian plants. And I wouldn't put anything past Karl Rove either.

But people who trash PUMAs, Democratic women, and who insist on using anti-female slurs play right into Rove's hands. That's what I am worried about and what I am fighting against. I have had to convince a PUMA friend of mine and it has been difficult, but in the end, she IS a Democrat and her principles are reflected in our platform, not in the GOPs.

But I did not get her to change her mind by telling her she was stupid or "voting with her vagina." That would have turned her off entirely and we would have lost her vote to McCain. We can't afford that. We just can't.

Using those slurs and insults against other Democrats
is not good- and it backfires, big time!

You are definitely on the right track.

:)

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Some of the attitudes I have seen on DU are terribly sad and pathetic; I told myself that I wouldn't baby anyone that wanted to pout about hurt feelings. I'm not voting for Obama because I personally like him (even though I do); I'm voting for him because our country can't afford another GOP administration. If the tables were turned, I'd volunteer and vote for Hillary; the primaries would have been nothing compared to the potential for a McCain presidency. I look at Hillary forums and see the hate and the rationalization behind the hatred and shudder to think what these 'adults' really think about the issues that separate Democrats and Republicans.

It is also important that we understand that it is a little more than hurt feelings. Some pretty sketchy things were done during the primaries, and we need to understand that. But we also need to help our own realize that 4 more years of the GOP is NOT helpful to anyone except the oil companies and the silver spooners.

Why in the hell would you vote for McCain just because Hillary was treated like shit by 20% of Obama supporters?


DO YOU REALLY WANT NO CHOICE?


DO YOU REALLY WANT CONSERVATIVE SUPREME COURT PICKS?


DO YOU REALLY WANT A CONTINUATION OF THE LAST 8 YEARS?


DO YOU REALLY WANT 100 YEARS OF WAR?




STUPID STUPID STUPID.






Obama/Biden '08

You are just throwing their votes away. The race is tighter now--do you really want to lost this race on the vote of women that we traditionally counted on to win? DO you really think that's the best thing for the party?

Ok, I'm glad you posted your thoughts, and you make some sense.

The thing is this: Hillary lost. Period. She lost fairly. She wasn't cheated. She didn't lose because of sexism. She was out-worked and out-organized, and out-planned.

From the start, the Clinton camp thought they had everything wrapped up, and so they didn't take any of the competition seriously. That came back to bite them.

When it became clear that Hillary was losing, they started using everything they could, and yes some of it aimed at the racist feelings of low-income white voters. They got nasty, and that can't be denied.

What it boils down to is this: The Clinton camp and many supporters thought she was entitled to this nomination, and when she didn't win it, they felt cheated. I have no desire to alienate Clinton voters, my fellow democrats. I can certainly understand the disappointment of losing, but voting against the best interests of your country and the views of the candidate you supported to begin with is not the answer. It's petty, and it hurts all of us.

As far as Michigan and Florida, when they broke the rules it was agreed that they wouldn't count at the convention. Hillary agreed with this, until she was behind and needed the delegates. She then tried to claim she was only interested in fighting for the voters in those states, which we know wouldn't have been the case if the tables were turned. She wanted the rules of the game changed at halftime, and that's not how it works.

In the end, Obama gave her the delegates, and has been very respectful of her and her supporters. She has been treated well, as she no doubt deserves. I don't see what the continued anger is about. She lost, she lost fairly. I know it's not what her supporters wanted, but it's what happened. Somebody always wins the nomination, and others lose.

Anybody that really cares about this country and a progressive agenda will back the only logical choice we have, Barack Obama. Anyone that would choose to back a disaster in waiting like the McCain/Palin ticket, isn't truly progressive to begin with imo. Let's do the right thing and turn this country around.

Do you understand what my goal is here? It is NOT to rehash the primary or to talk about who won or lost. That's unproductive. What I am saying is that we need to see the PUMA mindset and work with it. They have some legitimate complaints, whether we like it or not. And reminding them "You lost! You lost!" is actually a way of chasing them into a GOP vote. The psychology here is, "OK, you think we lost sucker? We'll just vote GOP and watch you cry like a baby in November." Neither "You lost you lost" nor "OK, then we vote GOP" is productive or helps a Democrat win. It just drives us further apart. Don't you think Rove wants it that way?

The only way the Democrats could lose this year is if the Democrats were divided. The primary season resulted in some nasty divisions. I say, heal those divisions so we can win. And if it means NOT saying "you lost! you lost!" then don't say it.

"Obama cheated"

"Obama was selected"

"Obama and people on DU played the race card"

"Obama's surrogates called anyone who didn't vote for him racists"

"Clinton won the popular vote"

"Voter fraud and intimidation at the Caucuses is why Obama won"

I know there's more, but if we all just agree that these statements are true, will they vote for Obama? We can throw in a pony too.

Can we get their votes? Their thinking is selfish and irrational, and I'm not sure what would make them get over it.

You may not like it being said this way, but the plain facts are they are sore losers. I'm not rubbing Obama's victory in their faces at all. My point was that Hillary's loss was fair and part of the democratic process. They want to believe otherwise.

I understood the point of your thread, to promote unity. I just don't know how to go about winning over voters that refuse to consider the big picture. It's just like a child on the playground. They don't like the outcome so they take their ball and go home. How do you fight that mentality? We can't make people be reasonable. If they're more interested in throwing a fit then voting the best interests of their country, I'm not sure we can make them see the light.

Comparing them to children on a playground and accusing them of throwing fits is NOT in our best interest. We just throw away their votes that way and then Karl Rove is happy and goes off to feast on the blood of small children at his secret bunker. Seriously, we don't do ourselves any favors by disrespect. We have to agree to disagree about the primary, and focus on the PLATFORM. This friend of mine is devoted to her students as I am to mine, and one thing I have found very helpful is to compare the GOP to the Democrats on education and ask her if she wants the "haves" to go to private/charter/voucher schools and students like ours to be left to the wolves. I ask her which platform really promises education reform, promises health care reform, and is going to work to help our inner city kids. It ain't the GOP.

Respect for differences and focusing on issues really helps. That's what will get us the votes back. Personal animosity will send those votes to either the GOP or the Green Party. I don't want to lose this year. My students can't afford it.

They haven't been shown any less respect then anyone else. They're pissed because they lost the primary. They wouldn't be pissed if Hillary had won the primary. It's that simple.

They KNOW that the GOP doesn't offer solutions to the problems they care about. This is a personal anger about what they feel was an unfair loss for Clinton.

I'm all for trying to get folks on board. I'm just not going to kiss ass to do it because someone is acting like a child that didn't get their way. They have a choice, progress or more bullshit. THEY need to understand this in the end. THEY need to make the right choice. I want them to feel that their views and concerns are addressed, but I'm not going to pretend that it's alright for them to side with the people destroying our country. Would they feel any different if Hillary had won and a large chunk of African Americans were threatening support for McCain in retaliation? I don't think so.

They have been shown disrespect as Hillary voters and as women, on this board and in the Democratic party. It HAS happened. Not all of us who are voting for Obama are blind to the slams that have been happening.

My point is that going over and over "you lost the primaries!" is counterproductive. Name calling is counterproductive. Accusation of racism are counterproductive.

WE NEED THEIR VOTES. We don't want them to go to Sarah Palin. And some of them will. And some of them will go Green, which in hotly contested states is just as bad. WE NEED A DEMOCRATIC WIN.

The win is more important than anything else right now. It's more important than deciding who was right or wrong or whatever. WE NEED TO WIN.

Please.

You're missing the point. Yes we need the win. If people want to act like children, then I'm going to see them as children.

Women didn't get treated any worse in this primary process then did Obama's voters. I remember just as many anti-Obama threads and talk about "cults" as anti-Clinton threads. They seem to think that because they didn't get their way they are victims, and it's all bullshit.

Hillary ran a much more desperate and nasty campaign then Obama or ANY other democrat in recent memory for the nomination.

Once again, I'm not rubbing their nose in Hillary's loss, I'm pointing out that it was totally fair, and because it was totally fair I don't think they're entitled to any more pandering then anyone else. It's time to grow up and either join the fight for a positive future, or the fight for a negative one. The line has been drawn.

If they care about the country they will vote for Obama. If they don't, they won't. It's that simple.

I am worried about this election. I wasn't nearly as worried before, but the polls are going in the wrong direction and the corporate media seems to be enthralled by this Newt Gingrich trained governor of Alaska. Palin was trained by Newt's PAC, and if you notice her actions are very neocon: fire people and hire cronies, try to get things censored, leave a city in a deficit, etc. I feel like I am watching a Bush in training. But this is getting short shrift in the media where she is just being touted and toasted and everyone is supposed to gawk. I don't want Palin anywhere near the presidency. I am trying to convince the female voters I know who are thinking about voting for her (including my PUMA friend) NOT to. I believe in reaching out and that every vote counts.

I am worried about this election. I wasn't nearly as worried before, but the polls are going in the wrong direction and the corporate media seems to be enthralled by this Newt Gingrich trained governor of Alaska. Palin was trained by Newt's PAC, and if you notice her actions are very neocon: fire people and hire cronies, try to get things censored, leave a city in a deficit, etc. I feel like I am watching a Bush in training. But this is getting short shrift in the media where she is just being touted and toasted and everyone is supposed to gawk. I don't want Palin anywhere near the presidency. I am trying to convince the female voters I know who are thinking about voting for her (including my PUMA friend) NOT to. I believe in reaching out and that every vote counts.

The MSNBC execs are using allegations of "bias" as their excuse for yanking Keith & Tweety out of the anchor chairs. The McCain camp obviously is responsible for some of that. But I recall seeing bullshit all over the net about how they were "so mean to Hillary and we should boycott them and demand they fire that meanie Olbermann".

Randi Rhodes was attacked rather mercilessly as well, which played a part in her departure from Air America.

Now I don't have any animosity whatsoever against someone for supporting another candidate during the primaries. Obama wasn't my first choice either. But those who played a part in the suppression of two of the few sane voices we have in the national media, that's a little harder to forgive.

And don't get me started on the Ferraro/Willie Brown/Ted Strickland types who are still abusing their positions and encouraging this "PUMA" crap. As far as I'm concerned, they have lost any right to call themselves Democrats if they can't stand up like Bill & Hillary did and get behind the nominee.

I thought it was because the McCain campaign complained.

Do you have a link?

Just allegations of "bias" without a clarification of how long such complaints had been made to MSNBC. However, one would logically assume - even in this era of corporate media - that it would take more than one such allegation to force a TV network to make such a drastic change. So if complaints of bias have been building up for months, then some of them were coming from the sweatshop shoe gang.

My guess, and it's only a guess, is that it was the McCain campaign. Trust me, the GOP gets listened to by the corporate media. Notice that the M$M has been ignoring a lot of the speeches that Obama and Biden have been making on the road. This ticks me off. They are all focused on the shiny new object of the week (Palin) and are ignoring the Democratic ticket. Typical corporate media.

You're defending an anti-democratic cult, while advocating a third party candidate in your signature, and you hide your profile, but you demand that I document every aspect of MSNGE's corporate decisions?

Sorry. No sale.

1. I am not defending "an anti-democratic cult": I am trying to get their VOTES for the Democratic party. I want the Democrats to WIN. OK? Make sense?

2. My Cindy Sheehan sig is actually old, and I forgot it was there. (I haven't been posting for awhile.) Thanks for the reminder. She is running third party and, you're right, I should change the sig line. It used to be about stopping David Horowitz, so maybe I'll go back to that.

3. I DO hide my profile because I am single and female and had a very bad experience with a troll on another board some years back. I used to post on some boards about Xena Warrior Princess (don't laugh; my students used to watch it too:)) and there were some nasty trolls in the Xenaverse. I learned then NOT to give out a lot of personal information. It's a habit now.

Copy out the Democratic Platform:

http://www.demconvention.com/the-democratic-platform /

being trashed and neither did a lot of vocal DU. PUMAs have no power over the media all they can do is vote.

running for President a "big fucking whore". She got what she deserved.

"A lying whore."

She brought that upon herself.

SORE LOSERS!! Hillary thought the primaries were her coronation, did you see her on Katie Couric? She wouldn't even broach the subject of losing. Overconfidence killed that CAT!

PUMAs who are Democrats do not want to, in their hearts, vote for Sarah Palin.

But I don't think that the "puma's" by their own definition are going to be easily converted. They are getting ATTENTION, but really, what percentage do they represent? My guess 5-7%. The new vote/young vote will counter them. The right wing media makes it seem like there are more than the reality. They are the ones saying "Party Unity My A$$" not us.

I am not a fucking idiot, that's why.








Thank you,

Gilligan

The only answer you need to that question. :toast:

I'm sure you mom said that at one point.

was not as smart as you are.

If you think that your friend, the PUMA, is playing with a full deck then you need to meet some other people really quick.

And I would not have embarrassed myself if Hillary won by saying I would vote for that shabby, old POS McCain. I happen to be able to get over my feelings being hurt when my favorite candidate does not win. - I would never have the ability to be so damned dumb to say I would vote for a person so diametrically opposed to my political beliefs.

Also - Just so you know, your friend does not represent the PUMA movement - Rush Limbaugh does. I do not try to make friends with FReepers -

And my PUMA friend also has a master's degree like I do and really cares about her students, so I don't think she is mentally ill. I do think people can be brought around and I believe in reaching out. I also WANT TO WIN IN NOVEMBER. I've had enough of the Republicans to last two lifetimes.

The best I can do is hold my tongue. I have zero patience for anyone, esp a woman, who tells me she is a Democrat yet will vote McCain. All I can do is point out what it is they are inviting, the SCOTUS, the coming Fascism, theocracy, etc, and then walk away. I will not spend any more time than that trying to "reason" with a two year old. I'll go after low info folks and give them info.

The PUMAs who do vote for the repukes are Dixiecrats and I want them out. They are not Democrats, and this is a fine time to clean house. For the record, I want the misogynists who surfaced out of my party, too. The primary brought out a lot of ugly.

I won't fight the battles of the primary again, it is over. If they can't see what is at stake, I am done with them. I will not pat anyone's hand.

If they can't see what is at stake here, if they can't appreciate the costs, then they are at best idiots.

But in deference to your thoughtful post, I will meet you halfway and I will make every effort not to actually call these people idiots. That's the best I can do.

Not let's get Obama elected!

My goal is to get some of those Democrats who really don't want to vote for Palin but who feel that the party has betrayed them and has no place for them to come back.

We have less than 2 months and the GOP has pulled a fast one. I don't put a lot of stock in day to day polls, but the M$M's love affair with a religious zealot whackadoodle scares me. We need all hands on deck, and all Democrats voting Democrat.

It's the platform. It's the platform.

I'd appreciate your help. I can understand how you feel, but if you should meet a PUMA, I would hope you would try.

It's the platform.

If you need any anecdotal evidence, feel free to repeat this, FWIW...

One of my dear friends IRL told me this weekend that her mother, who is a lifelong Dem but was going to vote for McCain b/c,

"I just don't think the country is ready for a black president"

has reversed engines and will vote for Barack entirely due to Palin!

So this can work, the tactic of pointing out who that woman is.


Thank you for your post, and giving me food for thought.

:hug:

I understand that there are some of those folks out there too, and I am angry about that. Race should play NO part in this.

I'll just keep talking up the platform. We NEED to win this one, my friend.

Nikki

What eloquence and what excellent use of logic and reason!

:woohoo:

This post is like a breath of fresh air. THANK YOU for this.

:kick:

I'm glad that you decided to support the Dem ticket this election, because we need EVERY vote to win.

The stakes couldn't be higher for people like me-I'm disabled and my husband just left me after being married right at 20 years and left me to support our 2 teenage sons on my disability check alone, which barely covers the rent.

Lost our medical insurance too. I've decided to cancel my Internet because we can't afford it anymore, but I just keep putting it off. Maybe we can get a cheaper dialup connection in the future. Maybe.

I feel so powerless and discouraged more people aren't looking at the bigger picture which is how MUCH we need change in this country. So many people are counting on Obama being elected and starting to change the policies in this country that benefit the very rich and punish the very poor.

I hope and pray every voter thinks twice before giving us more of the Bush policies or worse. A lot of voiceless and powerless Americans are counting on every vote.

you go after that bum of a husband, get the state to make him pay child support! And Second, damn, what a jerk! Sorry, can't help it. Third, you're right, we need every vote, for you, for all of us because a lot of us are a medical emergency away from total disaster. Hang in there kiddo, we'll get the change that you need. :)

The health care issue becomes really, really important when you lose your insurance. I have always felt so much compassion for the people who don't have insurance to take care of their families, and now I don't either.

My husband says that he is going to help us financially as much as he can, and I think he will. I think he kind of had a midlife crisis and now he's sorry he made some bad decisions.

Thank you for the kind words. I really appreciate the encouragement. :hi:

Hope things get better soon!

:toast: :hug:

:hug:

And this is EXACTLY why I vote Democratic. You said it best:

"I feel so powerless and discouraged more people aren't looking at the bigger picture which is how MUCH we need change in this country. So many people are counting on Obama being elected and starting to change the policies in this country that benefit the very rich and punish the very poor.

I hope and pray every voter thinks twice before giving us more of the Bush policies or worse. A lot of voiceless and powerless Americans are counting on every vote."

THANK YOU!!

:hi:

Now get out there and do something.

But thanks for the pep talk. :)

I'm at work and I've worked all day plus paid attention to DU and I still managed
to get my work done and the lazy ass in the next cubicles work too. I'm just a
big ole multi-tasker. Now, I'm gonna go work out. Yay! Go Obama!!

Who really benefits from the PUMAs feeling this way? The republicans, and I will not contribute to it. I was here reading every day during the primaries, though I didn't post a lot. To say it was ugly is an understatement. The M$M was awful to Hillary. I agree that now that McCain has gone for Palin the PUMAs may come back to the party.

I would like the PUMAs to know that I get it. I never considered being a PUMA, but I get it. The race was so close and people were working so hard. People were trashing both Hillary and her supporters with right wing attacks everywhere. I get it. Please tell your PUMA friend that many of us that voted for Hillary get it.

People telling PUMAs that they are ________(insert insult here). I would suggest that we are not the authoritarian, dogmatic, shut up and get in line, intolerant, un-empathetic party. How does this help us win? It isn't in any way representative of what Obama stands for.

I would also suggest to the PUMAs that some of their own are right wing operatives trying to exploit the situation. Some right wing operatives were certainly posing as both Obama and Hillary supporters and fueling the fire right here on DU.

Here is the deal and bottom line for me: Obama is fantastic. He believes in our platform. PUMAs should re-read his books and give him a fresh look. His approach to politics is beautiful and nuanced and downright brilliant. Though I was skeptical at first I now adore him.

Well thought out. I appreciate it.

I'm sorry there are so many who don't wish to hear it.

All I really want is a Democratic win. That's it. I am doing my best towards that end today with a bum knee, and I'll do my best for that on election day. It's important.

because I loved my candidate and I wanted her to win.
It took me a few days and then a good cry through Hillary's suspension speech to wake up!
Hello??? I'm a Democrat, after all.
I just don't buy any of this PUMA stuff. I think it's trumped up and many of those that the press actually finds to interview aren't being entirely truthful -- as far as their voting history, for example.
Even though it's silly, I can imagine someone staying home because they had their heart set on Hillary.
But voting for McCain??? Either you never believed in democratic principles or you are racist -- there is not other explanation for it.

Sadly, your last sentence is more accurate than many are willing to admit.

:hi:

No one can make me happy, no one can make me scared or angry - those are my feelings and I am in charge of how I feel.

Guess you need to try to explain that to your PUMA friends, they are responsible for their own feelings. Blaming others doesn't get them anywhere and voting for McCain because of their own feelings of abandonment or mistreatment is their own doing - their choice, no one is to blame. They have decided to be victims and it appears that they relish the role.

If they want to be the Eeyors that abandon their political philosphies because someone made them feel something, well that is their choice - they choose to give another power over themselves and their convictions. Voting for the same hell we have had to endure over the last 7 years versus voting for democratic values and control in the White House and Congress, that really isn't that tough a choice, if they are truly progressive and want what is best for our nation, for our children. What is sad is they think they are tiggers but they are merely eeyors. Whiney and fussing instead of dealing with life and taking responsiblity for themselves.

Tell them to watch this, it may help them come of emotional age:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5700431505846055184

Thank you Dr. Pausch!

:kick:

You really are a sweety after all.

:hug:

What I truly find remarkable is that anytime the left is left out in terms of candidates I don't read many essays about how we have to be approached intelligently or meaningfully. We tend to get castigated by self-described (and delusional)centrists. I seem to recall a few rounds of this where the right leaning and supposedly "realistic" democrats would bully and harass us or call us Naderites or whatever.