Ignore this thread if you don't care about "brokenwatergate"

I think this story is important - politically and also because of the possibility that real people are being hurt. I don't have all the answers but I think the official story is full of holes. I'd like to try to collect all the information we have in one thread and figure out what's true, what's false, and what's unknown. I don't want to leave this to the tabloids. They are interested in selling papers, not in finding the truth. Does anyone want to contribute some facts to this thread?

that is being passed around the Alaska medical community.

I don't know how any thinking person could believe that story.

of her owjn total and complete bs her being at advanced maternal for one thing plus knowing she was carrying a special needs child this another one of compulsive lies she tells, thanks but no thanks Sarah

http://www.matsuregional.com/staff/show_speciality.php?speciality=Family%2FGeneral+Practice

That's where Palin supposedly gave birth. I'll have to find a link to the cached page, but the doctor used to be listed on there (Cathy Baldwin-Johnson). Think she was fired for engaging in a cover-up?

That was very creative.

Hadn't seen that before now!

:rofl::applause::evilgrin::applause::rofl:

:banghead:

My understanding is that there is no certificate of birth for that baby on that day at that hospital.
This should be more of an issue. (IMO)

Is there not one photo of Palin in hospital gown holding newborn Trig? For that matter, is there not one photo of a non-pregnant Bristol they could release - like maybe one from Christmas? Why wouldn't they want to put this rumor to rest once and for all?

This one

http://www.startribune.com/featuredColumns/27792314.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O%20%20img%20src=#23419368809952668181

seems to suggest that Lingle knew in real time that Palin was going "into labor" (Lingle's phrase):

We've heard a lot about Sarah Palin, the governor of our 49th state, whose acceptance speech is expected tonight. But we are likely less familiar with the Republican woman governor of our 50th state -- Linda Lingle of Hawaii -- who was with Palin when the Alaskan discovered it was time to get to the hospital.

"We were at a national governors meeting on energy in Dallas when Sarah went into labor," said Lingle. "She handled it remarkably, and it's a great example of her talents and toughness. After the keynote speaker canceled at the last minute, Sarah stepped in. She gave an outstanding address on strategic energy policy. Then she boarded a plane back to Alaska to deliver."

Though Lingle didn't know it, Palin was aware this delivery would be different from her others. She would give birth to little Trig, who has Down syndrome. Palin's decision to give Trig life has become a rallying cry for social conservatives.

Lingle and Palin have shared more than this poignant moment.


But I saw a different news article where Lingle says she didn't know anything about it until after Palin was already back in AK and that her security detail told her about it after the fact. Can anyone help me find that story? I think things are being scrubbed at furious rate here.

http://www.startribune.com/27980174.html

"Nobody knew a thing," said Linda Lingle, the governor of Hawaii. "I only found out from my security detail on the way home that she had gone into labor and that she had gone home to Alaska."

I also notice that Dr. Baldwin-Johnson, who even attended Palin's baby shower according to the article, declined to comment for the article. Now why would she do that after already commenting on the birth publicly? Of course, that was before Palin became known nationally and people started asking questions about the birth. My theory is that the doctor is regretting ever getting mixed up in all this.

I also think that if Sarah really is the mother of Trig, that this is monstrous:

Inside Palin's room, her daughter Willow, 14, immediately noticed her new brother's condition, according to People magazine. "He looks like he has Down syndrome," Willow said. "Why didn't you tell us?"

Palin had wanted to let the news of the pregnancy sink in first, said Cole, her friend. She had intended to tell her family more after she returned from Texas. Then the baby arrived.

School/Pregnancy timeline..Make your own conclusions
Posted by SoCalDem in General Discussion
Wed Sep 03rd 2008, 08:21 AM
There are two schools of thought here:

The Palin folks persist in using ambiguous words when it comes to dates, and Bristol's whereabouts..

Bristol left school due to mono for "a few/several months"..
Bristol left school "mid-term" of the school year..or "around" the middle of school.
She has been reported to have been "staying with her Aunt"
Sarah popped up all-of-a-sudden pregnant, after not looking or acting a bit pregnant, at "about 7 months pregnant"
Bristol has dated Levi for "about a year"
Now Bristol is "about 5 months pregnant"
Her baby is due "around Christmas"

Yet their SON joined the military on EXACTLY 9-11-07 , and will deploy on 9-11-08

There is NO ambiguity on those two patriotic days..

Word is that Bristol's pregnancy is/was NO secret in & around Wasilla...Which pregnancy? One? Both?

Last August (07) , although there were websites pushing for Palin to be vp, the Palin family was still mostly off the radar, so a teen pregnancy would have been of little consequence except for the locals, so pulling the girl from school (how 1950's of them) would have been not so unusual for Palin, due to her religious stance. Teens often do not "show" until about 4 months, so what if Bristol did not TELL Mom until then...Dec /Jan would be in the mushy middle of the school year..

An infant who weighed 6lb & change in April, a baby with Down syndrome, could also have been a baby born to a teenager , say in March (early March?), and then just tucked away until Mom's "miracle pregnancy" could be established... How do we KNOW the birth weight is accurate or even the birth date.

The ONLY REAL dates we know, are the dates when she TOLD people she was "about" 7 months pregnant (because other people substantiated that date, and there are hard-copy news sources to verify that date, and then the date she flew home, because there were people at her meeting in Texas, and people on the plane, and of course the photo in the paper the next day.

Those are the ONLY substantiated dates surrounding little Trig.

She RAN the show up there, folks.. and she's well-known to be a secretive , calculating person.

When this was all happening, she could have just been doing what SHE thought was prudent, for the baby, for her daughter.

I'm guessing that they FREAKED out when Bristol delivered a preemie baby with Down syndrome, and THAT'S when Mom concocted her "plan"..(at that time...March would be my guess).. A baby born to a 16 year old, a baby with Down syndrome would be most likely raised by Sarah & Todd anyway, so why not just "go with it".. Maybe they thought the "mono story" was working, so no harm done.

This is NOT an uncommon occurrence in close-knit, somewhat backward communities...especially with very religious communities.. As long as they reconcile this within their own tight little group, everyone keeps the secret, and just goes on with their lives..

Bristol's (now known) "tantrum" about the rushed marriage that Mom planned for her, and the fact that no one told the kids that Mom was chosen to run for vice president tells me all I need to know about this family.. They are NOT the Waltons.. These kids are props..out of the loop on most family decisions, and their input is not needed at all..

Dad's gone oil-working/fishing/snowmobiling/going to work with Sarah, and we KNOW that Sarah is a gallivanter.. Those kids raise themselves..

Which brings me to my main point.

If Trig is really Bristol's baby and she was pissed at Mom for "taking her baby" (kids could easily have an over-romanticized view, and not realize the rigors of actually raising a handicapped child), is it out of the realm of possibility that she got pregnant AGAIN, as an in-your-face gesture to Mom?

A June pregnancy would make her 4 months( about 5 months?) pregnant now, and remember Sarah only found out she would BE the veep pick LAST WEEK..

Maybe she thought the "baby-fat" on Bristol was "left over", and not a "new" one..

OR she may have known that the deception would come out now about Trig's miraculous birth, and is forcing Bristol to go along with the NEW plan, along with a shotgun wedding, and then a staged "miscarriage"..all to cover for a batch of lies cooked up months ago..because NOW those lies might come out..

Back then it was just a local thing, and not many people (outside their own little area) knew or cared ..

The whole fact that investigating or questioning this, is now being spun as sexist and overly intrusive, may be the way they pull this off..

And for people who question how this could be managed in this day and age, I say this.. Popular governor with many friends she placed in high places, combined with sympathy over the fate of a tiny little baby boy who is handicapped, can make people "forget", "overlook", "cover up".... and the baby himself, only makes her a MORE appealing/sympathetic person.

Most people these days have had someone inside their family who has faced a teen pregnancy, a baby born with health issues, or a rebellious young teen.. they have faced the hardship of being a working-mom who somehow loses control over teenagers, and many would also understand how a Mom would do almost anything to help a child/grandchild...so suspending disbelief is not hard to understand..

I think that Sarah found herself caught in a big-ole lie, and is either forcing Bristol to "go along" as payback for what Mom has done for her, by claiming Trig as her own, or Bristol is paying mom back for "taking her baby"..

We may never know for sure, but the time-line I made up shows that it's entirely possible for Bristol to be mother to BOTH babies, or that Trig is the ONLY baby, and she's being forced into another weird cover-up.....marriage/miscarriage ...because NOW Mom is on the national stage and panic has set in..

The National Enquirer is on the scene up there, but because small towns line up as "enemy vs friend", we may never really "know for sure"..

For those of us who searched immediately after the big announcement, we found many pictures online..all over the web, and especially on the Alaska State website. As soon as this started to percolate, that site was thoroughly cleansed, and now almost EVERY picture has NO EXIF data with it, and sometimes even captions have been changed. Dates for the same pictures are "all over the place", or undated.

One thing I can foresee, is that somewhere down the line, Bristol and her sisters may be in need of some serious mental health counseling.

I think this is just a plan gone VERY wrong, and they are desperately trying to work their way out of it..

Mom has backed herself into a corner, and is either grandmother to two children born to her teen daughter in a little over a year (not impossible)...or she's grandmother to one, and is forcing her daughter into an elaborate scam to cover the fact that she claimed the grandchild as her own, and Bristol did not lose the baby fat soon enough..

It may all end up a moot point, if enough of the religious fundies decide that none of it matters, and the press gets cold feet and quits searching.....

EIGHT years of stonewalling and refusal to show documents or undergo serious questioning should have taught us all a lesson about how this stuff works.. If McCain manages to "win", the questions will all stop.. we know that..

And for those who still want to bash on me for "going there", it matters because it's about the LYING, and the calculated coldness of it all.. A mother who would do this to her own children, is capable of a lot worse things when it concerns US..

.........................................................

Bingo!
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/SoCalDem/119

.....................................................


Why the Palin "baby" story matters.. It's INSURANCE FRAUD
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/SoCalDem/120
Posted by SoCalDem in General Discussion
Fri Aug 29th 2008, 01:57 PM
for starters..

A 16 yr old child will eventually become too old to be covered on the parents insurance, and I'm betting that Mrs Guv has some pretty nifty insurance, as does Mr BP-OIL, so if the baby is "Theirs", that handicapped child willl have all the care he will need, BUT

if he's the child of their unwed daughter, no doubt they would end up raising the child anyway, if she plans to go to college..She would probably have insurance coverage for herself while she's in school, but who's gonna pay for that child's coverage, or take care of him,while she's a carefree college student?..and how will she "land a husband" with a handicapped baby?

if she kept the baby, and managed to finish college, that child's disability would surely present a "pre-existing" condition to just about any HR person she would interview with..

I can understand why the parents would want to "help her out", and this sort of thing happens all the time, but for her parents to phony-up the whole thing and claim the child as theirs is ..well..deceptive and insurance fraud..
Read entry | Discuss (113 comments) | Recommend (20 votes) | Remove from Journal | Add/Edit Intro


Feb 25, 2008.. 7 months pregnant?? you decide
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/SoCalDem/118

Posted by SoCalDem in General Discussion
Fri Aug 29th 2008, 11:37 AM
http://www.subnet.nga.org/centennial/Image... large pic


This was taken at the Nat'l Gov's assn meeting this year..a week before she said she was 7 months pregnant...

http://www.nga.org/portal/site/nga
Read entry | Discuss (186 comments) | Recommend (9 votes) | Remove from Journal | Add/Edit Intro

but some of those pictures have been "disappeared" :(

..which ones are not showing up for you?

?VERY LARGE

and her ilk possess.

It is obvious that she:

A) knew that it was a Down Syndrome fetus.

B) delayed the birth beyond any reasonable medical guidelines.

Therefore...

C) tried to induce a "god" miscarriage/abortion.

and

D) when that attempt failed, she hypocritically is now using the child to push a phony anti-choice meme.

and her ilk possess.

It is obvious that she:

A) knew that it was a Down Syndrome fetus.

B) delayed the birth beyond any reasonable medical guidelines.

Therefore...

C) tried to induce a "god" miscarriage/abortion.

and

D) when that attempt failed, she hypocritically is now using the child to push a phony anti-choice meme.

and haven't been on regularly so I might have missed this, but since when is Palin's water breaking a worthy news item? :shrug:

There have been rumors all along that Bristol Palin is the actual mother of Trig and that Sarah Palin faked her pregnancy. These rumors began in Alaska long before Sarah Palin was a blip on the national radar. You can see some old comments on the following news article.

http://www.adn.com/626/story/382864.html

Many of us find it incredible that a 44-year-old woman who already knew she was carrying a special needs child would in the first place fly to TX in her third trimester, in the second place not seek medical care after her water broke at 4am, in the third place... well, you can look at the graphic in post 2 for a quick summary. Some of us also find it hard to believe that she could not show at all until her third trimester after having 4 children already. And that she could have even lasted that long without giving birth after her water supposedly broke. There are many more details I'd like to collect here as well, but I don't have time right now to list everything.

labor didn't really hit until three hours after breaking. I stayed home and did house work. Went to the hospital only when it got to really hurting and the contractions were less than five minutes apart. It varies with different women.

I also find this belief that Trig is Bristol's son highly laughable and not to be taken seriously at all. Bristol is five months pregnant anyway. Trig was born five months ago, IRRC.

This kind of shit is what will cost Obama the support of a lot of women. We don't need to be going after it at all.

It was also a high-risk pregnancy and supposedly a month premature.

We have no proof that Bristol is 5 months pregnant (or about 5 months, as the Palin people put it). She could have gotten pregnant right away after Trig or she could be faking pregnancy now. I don't claim to know what the whole truth is. I just don't think the official story is believable or even consistent.

By the way, I consider myself a feminist and I don't see this as a sexist issue at all.

I do agree, but it still doesn't mean that Bristol is Trig's mom. That's a pretty outlandish theory, IMO.

Labor isn't an easy thing to judge if you haven't been there or know the details. Without the medical records or detailed statements from her and witnesses one can only go by their preconceived notions about what they think happened...usually they're wrong.

I find the questioning of it sexist. I also find it unimportant and will have no traction with the media.

Sarah Palin knew that she was 36 weeks along (from what I have read, some reports say 37-1/2 weeks) carrying a special needs child that was at high risk to have breathing and heart problems, even at full term.

With multiple pregnancies before, it was likely Sarah would have a short labor. To spite her, Trig waited.

Why don't you look up on webmd or some similar site the recommendations about flying at 36 weeks for a woman carrying a healthy child? What are those recommendations for a woman with a special needs child with leaking amniotic fluid?

That she chose to endanger that special needs child is incomprehensible and completely indefensible to me. My guess is that she was hoping to lose that child. As one poster on this thread said, "A God-induced abortion." It was not going to fit into her plans and aspirations. Her actions and judgment smack of those of a desperate teenage mother seeking a Dumpster, only Sarah couldn't take it THAT far. If her judgment is so poor with her OWN CHILD, what can we expect when she trains in on God's Holy War or any other matter?

Meanwhile, Here is a link or two for you. You might have already seen this story. The letter below disputes that Bristol bore Trig, and it's written by a Wasilla resident.

http://www.adn.com/sarah-palin/story/515512.html

http://www.andrys.com/palin-kilkenny.html

The Anne Kilkenny letter and the fact that Trig has Down Syndrome are two pieces of info that make me lean against the Bristol is Trig's mother theory, but there are many others that make me lean toward it. I don't know what the truth is yet, I just know it's not what they've been telling us.

Do you think the decision tree upthread is accurate? If so, what does that say to you about her potential as veep or president?

access to any mediacal attention at all. after your water broke, would you have put yourself in a position where you could not get to medical help. were you already high risk at 44. was your baby high risk with down. were you a month early. and was it a fifth child that comes quickly for the most part

all legitimate questions

The point is, there are no birth records or any hard dates to go with this "story" so the timeline is all squishy, permitting speculation.

and Mom had to be there to ensure the birth certificates had the "right" names on them and stuff, and conceivably, to be there to help her daughter and grandson. Which also explains why she felt she had to rush back to Podunk General Hospital, rather than a hospital in Texas or Anchorage... she couldn't game the system elsewhere.

Now I'm not sure what you're saying, but I definitely agree the Palin team's info is "squishy."

We're thru the looking glass people...

Conspiracy theorists are just too fun to watch because their zany ideas always make sense to themselves in some kind of weird internal way.

Maybe it's not Bristol's child at all. Maybe it's the younger daughter's child!

And maybe Todd really is the dad because he was secretly abusing the younger child.

I'm sorry, but this stuff is just so bizarre as to give all reasonable DU'ers a bad name. And a headache.

Peace.

If a DUer had made the claims about Palin that she made about herself, then THAT would be called a conspiracy theory.

I have found that people who label others "conspiracy theorist" are not comfortable questioning the status quo.

There are many conspiracies being perpetrated on the American public. It seems like we learn about a new one everyday. Theorizing about them is a healthy democratic process.

Bristol: Gentle, loving, caring, nurturing, want a nipple? (for breast feeding)...

Todd: Ok, someone please come get this damm thing!

Does this look more like a teenager kissing his future brother-in-law... or a teenage daddy kissing his son?

Looks like one helluva family photo with mommy and daddy.

he's supposed to be the father of the current (unborn) baby. no way to know who Trig's father is, since, conveniently and mysteriously, there is no birth record of him on the day and place he was supposedly born.

Got a family crisis so going off DU for a while. Wish I had time to have posted more links, but maybe some others will take over. I always wanted this to be a collaborative thread anyway.