Sorry, folks, I'm not buying one word of it

I'm sorry, but I'm not buying it -- one word of it.

I don't believe that the country is close to evenly split on McCain vs. Obama -- don't believe it at all. In fact, I don't believe that we've had nearly 50-50 elections for the last eight years, making it "close enough to steal."

I believe they were stolen, but I believe that the cooked polls created the illusion that it was close going into the election, allowing the voting machine companies to commit massive fraud.

What do I base this on?

Go out in the street and take a poll on any subject: the weather, gay rights, abortion, chocolate vs. vanilla, I don't care. If you get a 50-50 split -- or close to it -- it will be a fluke. On most of these issues, you're going to see a much wider split. Yet, they ask us to believe that for the past three presidential election cycles, we've been close to 50-50. That defies belief.

On almost every issue, when polled separately, the right wing loses. Every one of their issues loses -- most people favor gay rights, most people favor reproductive choice, most people think the country is going in the wrong direction, most people think Bush is an abject failure -- and the list goes on. On some issues, they lose by a substantial margin. On other issues, they lose by an overwhelming margin.

Yet, when they supposedly ask about the election, all of a sudden, these people who reject the GOP policies decide to vote for them.

You can claim that it's some weird kind of cognitive dissonance. I agree there are some delusional people, but I usually find them to be consistent in their delusion. I know people who will vote for McCain, but they also believe that the economy is good, the war is fine, and so on.

I have never met one person who felt everything sucked, but they were still going to vote for McCain. Maybe I just need to get out more. Maybe you know some of these people. I'll admit there are probably a few, but I can't imagine there are enough to account for the difference in the polls.

However, if they can maintain the illusion in our minds that we are within one or two points going into the election, then they are free to do anything to make it come out in their favor.

And don't think there has to be "massive fraud" and millions of people involved to cook the results. It's actually much easier than that -- and easier still now that we have election machines that have been proven beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt to be prone to tampering. You only need to fix the results in a few key precincts, cities, and states to steal an election by a small margin -- which in a winner-take-all contest is all they need.

But they can't do it, if we go into the election with Obama leading McCain in the polls by 75-25. It needs to be closer -- and that's where the polls come in.

We sit and groan when Obama goes down by two points in Florida and then cheer when he goes up by two points in Ohio -- supposedly. The whole thing is bullshit. This isn't even close -- but they want you to think it is.

They also rely on the corporate media to present McCain and that woman as being hailed as heroes all over the country -- again planting the seed of belief that they can win it.

I also don't believe that McCain's convention speech conveniently drew a few hundred thousand more viewers than Obama. I can see a high viewership for Palin, as people were curious. They would tune in much the same way as curiosity seekers slow down to look at a wreck on the highway. But, seriously, John McCain? The base, maybe. A few political junkies, sure. A few people who had fallen asleep and just never changed the channel, OK.

But I don't buy the claim that nearly 40 million people deliberately tuned in to watch this befuddled old man read a speech - badly. However, that figure, higher than Obama was necessary to sell the narrative that it's a neck-and-neck race -- with a slight edge toward McCain.

The poling companies and the Nielsen people are integral parts of the corporatocracy. Their role is to convince us that we are a country evenly divided, which we are not. Then, they can rig the machines to make the election numbers come out any way they want, and no one will complain.

We may scream and yell about caging in Chicago, or machine tampering in Pittsburgh. And people may even agree about those. But with the election having been close to 50-50, they are willing to accept any results.

Even on boards like DU, the reaction of a lot of people will be that we need to "stop whining" or "stop hand wringing" and go out and work to make it so it's not close enough to steal. The problem is that with rigged polls and false reporting, it will always be "close enough to steal," at least in the minds of the TV addicts -- no matter how hard you work.

Hi Friends and Fellow Democrats,

I recently came across this on Youtube.
Please watch this music video that couldn't be a better anthem endorsing Barack Obama.
I feel that it completely sums up our concerns and hopes for a brighter future.

link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLgJVBoR_zs

Let's get it out there to help make the change!


Thank you for your time

Sincerely,

Darryl Smithburg

My life is over.

I pray and work hard so that Obama DOES win! McCain / Palin and their Corporate Friends in high places would not just be another 4 years of misery it would be mind boggling what their choices of judges for the Supreme Court would mean! You are not alone!

thank you.

something more along the lines of 'Right Now' from Korn. Although it's not exactly mainstream and Obama could never get away with it, I find it sums up my feelings towards the Republican Party adequately. Not to mention, this song is just plain fun for the entire family.

The refrain:

Right now
Can't find a way
To get across the hate
When I see you!

Right now
I'm feeling strange inside
I want to slash and beat you!

Right now
I rip apart the things inside
That excite you!

Right now
I can't control myself
I fucking hate you!

It really relaxes me.

Check out the vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVus3BL4NhQ

The guy in it perfectly portrays your average Republican voter.

TO CONCEAL THE TRUTH.

The idea that suddenly, only after George W. Bush and the end of exit polling, EVERY major election becomes "too close to call" is simply laughable. No rational person would believe this is coincidence, given all that is to be gained by the various parties involved.

As for some of your more specific claims of Nielsen being involved and all that...I dig a good conspiracy as much as the next guy, but I think that might be taking it a bit far. After all, Nielsen, in the age of digital television, isn't the same as it used to be. I've been a Nielsen family at least twice, and Arbitron three times, but that was back in the day of the paper diary and fifteen-minute increments. Do they even do that any more, when every cable company has the means to know how many people are tuning in to any given channel at any minute.

I dunno. I do believe/agree, however, that the media numbers are totally cooked, and it's a lot simpler than any conspiracy theory -- a tight race and a rabid rivalry in ANY sport is GREAT for ratings. The media giants know this. The Republicans have been very good them for the last eight years (and more), and they know it.

.

I did one in 2004 and one in mid-2005 the same way -- paper.

If none of these elections were close, they would have known that. What you are putting out there is that both Kerry and Gore know that their elections were not close, but said nothing about it.

A recurring problem for some here at DU

And therefore allow yourself to do nothing.

that the buttons and levers you're so vigorously pushing and pulling are still connected to something.

It's like the "Close Door" button on elevators. It doesn't really do anything, but it gives you a feeling of control.

So you go right ahead embracing the dark. I'll stay with the light -- the same shit may happen but I'll be happier and live longer. :)

You know what they call animals who refuse or fail to see the danger around them?

Lunch.

You aren't being "real", you're looking at things in the darkest possible way.

Have fun living in your animal-eat-animal world. I'll be in the real and yet optimistic one. End of thread.

...they are personal, pervasive and permanent. Realism is considerably different. Theoretically, one can be a realist and an optimist.

I'd rather die fighting for light, than have a long life in darkness.

Why would someone want to believe that the last two Democratic nominees for President knew ahead of time that the elections were being stolen on a massive scale and did nothing?

Or have they been hiring the "political consultants" who are part of the inside-the-Beltway power structure? These "consultants" are part of the problem. Remember the disgusting Mark Penn, whose company was advising both Hillary and McCain?

Part of the problem (and we will test this in this election cycle) is that Kerry & Gore followed the old strategy of "17 states" plus one to try to win. And with their targeted blue states, they may have been doing quite well. Problem is the electoral votes that come with the states they didn't target and conceded and the election fraud in the "close" states, effectively denying the win.

outside polls. That's why Gore fought so hard in 2000 - he KNEW he had won. Also, why Kerry did not appear to fight - he KNEW he couldn't prove the fraud, particularly after the polling companies 'adjusted' their exit polls.

They were close, but close being 6-7 points, not the 2-3 points that the polling companies claimed.

That last two national elections were stolen. And if we don't get our shit together in the next 8 weeks, this one will be, too.

and the reasons for 'not doing anything about it' can not be known. It bothers me when people suggest Kerry did nothing in Ohio, that he should have counted votes that were not there to count. And it bothers me when people hold a candidate accountable for how their state conducts their elections and counts their votes. I recall that the Collier brothers had asked Janet Reno to investigate the fraud in Florida and she told them it was not politically viable.

the country is anti-liberal & we as a party fail to realize this.
Doing the same thing every election cycle & expecting different results isn't a sign of real intelligence.

We have a ticket w/ the most liberal & 3rd most liberal senators, neither w/ any military or executive experience.
It should not be surprising that the country still has trouble with the ticket.

While I don't agree w/ Zell Miller, this party has to come to grips w/ reality.
If we don't put red state dems on the ticket & shift slightly to the right we will not get 50% of the vote.

It's really that simple.

The country isn't "anti-liberal" even though you appear to want them to be. The majority want something progressive done on health care, energy prices, job retention - all the "liberal" things which you disparage. And we don't have excessively liberal candidates on the ticket either. Take this crap to Free Republic where it belongs.

It's arguably the most conservative industrialized democracy in the world with the possible exception of Japan...

You get my point...
Agred.. which is just making the whole issue even more frustrating since this party doesn't learn from the past!

I am a yellow dog Democrat...

This is the ticket we have...We have to play the hands we are dealt... Or pick up the basketball where we find it...

There will be plenty of time for recrimination if things don't work out but hopefully they will...I am sure the long knives will come out if we don't...

So you think the public doesn't want single-payer healthcare? They don't wantminimum standards of living. or social security, or fair labor standards? They don't want environmental protection, or consumer protection?

No way. They want all those things, but the right has been successful in framing them in ways that make it sound like they don't want them. That's not the same thing at all. We don't need to shift right, we need to reframe the issues so that the public understands them.

the right has spent upteen millions, possibly billions, of dollars on right wing think tanks since the early 70s

they've been working this for decades...framing, etc.....conning the populace, manipulating their cognitive processing, etc...

the left, otoh, has not

we're playing catch up

we MUST hire Lakoff

I don't even think that is true. The problem is of self delusion and false consciousness with regards to what economic class they are in and what their class mobility is.

21% of the electorate defined themselves as liberal...46% of the electorate defined themselves as moderate...And 34% of the electorate defined themselves as conservative:


http://people-press.org/commentary/?analysisid=103

If you believe this is a product of false consciousness you might very well be right; I have read Marx and Marcuse too, and Chomsky and Charles Lindblom to boot...But it's hard to test a proposition that relies on proving a person doesn't believe what he says he believes or doesn't understand what he claims to understand... And it's one of these philosophical discussions that really ends up nowhere...

For instance, survey data demonstrates that seventy seven percent of Americans believe Jesus Christ was born to a virgin...The laws of science tell us that is impossible but that's different than proving that seventy percent of Americans (don't) believe it happened...And therein lies the problem with metaphysical notions like false consciousness; there is just no way of proving what people really believe...That's why I fall on the side of logical positivism....I rather rely on what I can observe than how I feel...

But when you query the electorate on the issues they come out predominantly liberal in orientation, or more liberal than they think they are.

You mean Obama and Biden are "more liberal" than a Teddy Kennedy or a Bernie Sanders or even a Robert Byrd? :rofl:

Methinks you are on the wrong forum. The DLC's EPIC FAIL of a policy that single-handedly caused the Democratic Party to lose the House AND the Senate AND many governors, is only now, some 14 years later, being rectified with a 50-state strategy.

This country is too f&cking far to the right already. It has become a fascist theocracy, where the Constitution is now used as toilet paper by the likes Shrub and DLC lackeys. It's time to reprogram the brainwashed zombie nation and break them away from their addiction to fascist propaganda.

I didn't know whether to laugh or to cry when I first heard that.

It's what the Republicans do to put the Democratic candidate on the defensive, regardless of where that candidate actually falls on the political continuum.

I was a Dean supporter, and I am a liberal, and I had to consciously shift to the right to support him. But because I respected the man, I was willing to compromise. The supreme irony is that unlike Dean, John Kerry actually was a liberal, and yet I was still a Dean supporter to start, primarily because of Kerry's lackluster campaign and his inexcusable vote for the illegal Iraq invasion.

Funny how that works every year . . . that we always get "the most liberal candidates" :eyes:

The National Journal based that survey on ONE YEAR. Barack was 16th most liberal in 2005 and 10th most liberal in 2006.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=22&media_view_id=9786
http://www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/archives/2008/01/7051_obama_1_most_li.html

BTW . . . . your slip is showing.

the country is anti-liberal & we as a party fail to realize this.
The country agrees with liberals on the majority of issues.

Doing the same thing every election cycle & expecting different results isn't a sign of real intelligence.
If you hadn't noticed, this years nominee is slightly different than the other 43 nomines

We have a ticket w/ the most liberal & 3rd most liberal senators, neither w/ any military or executive experience.
It should not be surprising that the country still has trouble with the ticket.
Bernie Sanders is the most liberal Senator, not Obama nor Biden (see chart below). Chimp had "executive" experience- how'd that work out for the country?

While I don't agree w/ Zell Miller, this party has to come to grips w/ reality.
It actually sounds like you do agree with ole Zell.

If we don't put red state dems on the ticket & shift slightly to the right we will not get 50% of the vote.
Congress is filled with right-wing Dems already(see chart below).

It's really that simple.
Yep. Simply bullshit.

Don't be absurd.

I don't think we should do post mortems on a campaign that is still alive...

The Republicants do the same thing every election since 1988...They try to portray our guy as outside the circle...If they are successful they will win...If they are unsuccessful they will lose...

Most liberal and 3rd most liberal? These guys are more liberal than Sanders? Boxer? Feingold?

That is absolute crap. Clark would be ashamed of your support.

I didn't vote for the ticket because the thought of voting for Lieberman made me retch. (I lived in Mass. at the time so it was going Dem no matter what; if I lived elsewhere of course I would have voted Gore.)

And even though Delaware votes Democratic, it's probably the most business-friendly state in the union. From Wikipedia:



So to my mind, Delaware votes Dem but it's Republican-friendly. And in case you haven't noticed, we ARE doing something different this time around: significantly higher rates of Dem voter registration, a closer watch on the polls and caging attempts going into the election, and exceptionally good research on Palin that's being picked up by the CM. So I think that you're the one in denial here.

On almost every economic and social issue the country actually sides with the liberals. Actually if you ask them straight up, the people are substantially to the left of most of our elected officials.

On the environment, Education, safety and livable wages in the workplace, international trade and relations, war and security, holding corporations responsible, policy of fair taxation (and the wealthy paying their fair share), provision for children, and even social issues like abortion, the majority of americans actually are to the left of the Democratic party.

It really is the corporatists that wreck chances at real solutions in this country.

Executive experience that returned pennies on investors' dollars, like Bush? Executive experience that needed no bid government contracts like Cheney's Halliburton? Informed opinions are welcome here, enjoy your stay.

Bill

our ticket is already way to the right

sorry, folks, but we don't have hardly any dems who aren't right of center

it's the lying slimey rethugs who try to say dems are too liberal or whatever

it's utter lies and trash talk

Its the much maligned moderates, the swing voters, the Reagan Democrats, socially liberal Republicans, the centrists that matter in elections.

Nothing I say will put a dent in the conspiracy.

we will all sit at our keyboards saying "Gee, it was SOOO close. We ALMOST made it." And it will be backed up by the polls. And the pundits will say "all it took was a 2% boost from the Evangelicals/ Women/NRA members/Hispanics/Pit Bull owners/whatever to tip it to the Republicans."

When the truth is MASSIVE FUCKING FRAUD.

with the multitude of 'professional' polls, HE will look like the outlier and people will say HIS methodology is flawed, which reflects on HIS credibility.

It's one thing to KNOW something, and quite another to PROVE it.

It needs to appear to be close so it can be stollen! If the polls showed the reality of the situation, no one would believe the faked election results. We need to push to be allowed exit polls!

I asked what the point was of saying "The election will be stolen!". It's a defeatist and hopeless position to take, for people who claim to want to make a change. The result was I got ripped a new one by everyone who didn't want to hear that the elections might not be "stolen". They live to feel sorry for themselves. Such is life at DU, I suppose.

of palin with that machine gun

surely resonate deeply with many of the gun toting working class

and that ad of her as Rosie the Riveter

my heart sank

it appeals to just those working class folks we need

where are our emotion-triggering visuals?

People here are always saying that the election has to be close, or else they wouldn't be able to steal it. But how do we really know what the actual numbers are? If we assume that the voting is stolen, why not the polls? There is no way we can legitimately verify actual voter mood on a nationwide basis without polling. So if that's gone, the argument that elections have to be close is gone too, and suddenly we are in a potential position where the entire country votes, only 200 people vote for McCain, and he wins in a landslide.

steal it" there is only, stop the stealing.

and yeah, i think it goes back a little further. we all woke up the day st ronnie was selected going :wtf:

and use the BS to MOTIVATE us, not scare us. Bill Clinton used to say, always assume you are losing. It's a good approach, it makes us all work harder and not get complaisant.

1) I live in Central Florida...I hear pro-Republicant talking points all the time and Central Florida is a good proxy for the United States...It is neither red nor blue but purple...

2) There are Democratic pollsters whose polls we can use as a baseline...Stan Greenberg of Democracy Corps has been polling elections since 1992 , that I know of, and his polls more or less match the media polls...Ditto for Celinda Lake and Peter Hart...

3) Democratic presidential candidates have won a majority of the vote (twice) since 1944...I doubt every election has been fixed...

4) America is a center right nation. We ignore that fact at our peril and to our eternal dismay...

5) This election is a "push" or "pick em" and anybody that tells you otherwise is delusional...

If Nelson or Graham had been on the ticket does anyone doubt that FLA would be in play?
If Bayh were on the ticket Indiana would certainly have been in play.

I'm sorry, but we need someone to reason with the party elders & force a red state governor on the ticket next time.

just go vote rethug

you get the same result

America has a center-right POWER STRUCTURE. The people are, if anything, center left/left libertarian.

Don't forget, Democracy is a liberal concept.

For the last 50 years the right has been co-opting the power and wealth in the country. They have the media and the money and the position to speak from 'authority' so when THEY say we are not a liberal nation it must be believed because there is so little public disagreement.

1) If you think central florida is representative of the country in general, you need to get out more.

2) Can you prove the bonafides of these "democratic" pollsters? What makes them "democratic" as opposed to Gallup?

3) Truman, '48. Kennedy, '60. Johnson, '64. Carter, '76. Clinton, '92 & '96. Gore, '00. Kerry, '04. The last two were proven stolen. As for the rest, how did they win if they didn't win the majority? Oh, you're saying 'majority' rather than 'plurality'. A bullshit distinction. They STILL got more votes than their opponants.

4) It is a statement without evidence.

5) I don't know WTF that even means.

"1) If you think central florida is representative of the country in general, you need to get out more."

-You

Here's the 04 election results for Orange County which is the most populous county in Central Florida:

Orange County Kerry-49.8 Bush* 49.6. Actually it's a bit bluer than the rest of the nation...There's a whole world beyond the Research Triangle...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Florida,_2004

-Me

"2) Can you prove the bonafides of these "democratic" pollsters? What makes them "democratic" as opposed to Gallup?"

-You

Celinda Lake- Lake has done work for several influential organizations and individuals, including the AFL-CIO, the SEIU, Emily's List, The White House Project], Planned Parenthood, the Democratic National Committee (DNC), Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano, Senator Barbara Mikulski, Senator Debbie Stabenow and Senator Blanche Lincoln.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celinda_Lake

Peter Hart- Mr. Hart has represented more than 40 U.S. senators and 30 governors, ranging from Hubert Humphrey and Lloyd Bentsen, to Jay Rockefeller and Bob Graham.

http://www.hartresearch.com/about/bios/

Stan Greenberg-

Stanley Bernard Greenberg (born May 10, 1945) is a leading Democratic pollster and political strategist who has advised the campaigns of the Bill Clinton, Al Gore, and John Kerry, as well as hundreds of other candidates and organizations in the United States and around the world, including British Prime Minister Tony Blair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_Greenberg


-Me



"3) Truman, '48. Kennedy, '60. Johnson, '64. Carter, '76. Clinton, '92 & '96. Gore, '00. Kerry, '04. The last two were proven stolen. As for the rest, how did they win if they didn't win the majority? Oh, you're saying 'majority' rather than 'plurality'. A bullshit distinction. They STILL got more votes than their opponants."

-You



It makes a difference and is of significance when the Republicants have won majorities in 1952, 1956, 1972, 1980, 1984, 1988, and 2004 and the Democrats have only managed that feat twice in that time period- 68 and 76...

-Me

4) "America is a center right nation"(That) It is a statement without evidence."

-You

If America's not a center right nation why does it devote a smaller percentage of its budget and a smaller percentage of its GDP to non defense budget expenditures than any industrialized nation with the possible exception of Japan and Australia?...And if America is such a "libertarian" nation why could a man be thrown in the hoosegow in thirteen states for giving his boyfriend a blow job up until 2003?

Oh- here's the exit polls for 04...34% of Americans identified themselves as conservative , 46% of the electorate identified themselves as moderate, and 21% of the electorate identified themselves as liberal... I think if you add them up it shows the center and right comprise 80% of the electorate:

http://people-press.org/commentary/?analysisid=103

Me

5) "I don't know WTF that even means."

By every metric the race is a push or pick em.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/

.. Those are colloquialisms for even:

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

-John Adams

on edit- Lots of ad hominem and condescension in your response :( but I'll rise above it...I hate to toot my own horn but I have done post grad work in Political Science...I don't talk out of my ass and my work product proves it ;) ...

And thank you for taking the time to compile all of that information. It is very helpful. I have bookmarked this post.

The first thing they teach you in Political Science is the difference between the empirical (the way things are) and the normative (the way things ought to be).


PEACE

DSB

what push or pick is

but our man is right of center

and anyone who says otherwise is merely mouthing rethg bilge

We seem to be arguing on parallel tracks or about to argue on parallel tracks... I am a logical positivist...I look at facts and evidence...

It matters not where I place McCain , Obama, Palin, Biden, et cetera on some ideological plane...What matters is where the electorate places these candidates on an ideological plane and whether after doing that they place those candidates closer or further away from themselves...

And we haven't even got into the role that personality and celebrity play in the role of voting which is probably of more importance and even harder to measure...

Spout it on air The 2000 election was called by Fox News's John Ellis a SHOCK Bush cousin this year we have the mastermind and thief himself to do the job I am so sick of spineless Journalists and Americans who buy this BS year after Year Voter News Service and exit polls were right in 2000 exit polls were right in 2002 and for but they did not match outcomes and hardly anybody did anything. I had longtime Dem friends who got mad at me for saying it was stolen, that is how brainwashed America is.

I meet them all the time. They don't give much thought to things. The reason McDope gets a bounce is that the fundies got energized and started talking, and the people they talk to just believe them when they tell them their ignorant sound bites. They'll just say Obama's going to raise your taxes. Idiot voter heard them say that and maybe sees the ad on TV and that's it. No further investigation or thought.

Our problem is not being rude enough to bring this crap up - how many threads you see on DU during the holidays and such, or saying one should never fight or bring the subject up confirms that. But maybe we have to be a bit rude. More is at stake here, so it's worth it. Tell one of these idiots Gramps will tax their health care benefits like income and start more wars and put us further into debt or ship jobs to China, whatever the particular individual will find most horrifying. Tell them Obama will get us out of the mess in the Middle East, tax the rich more and lower our taxes, help people get off welfare and punish the companies that move to China.

Or if they don't like organized religion, tell them how Tundra Barbie wants to make the schools teach religion. Exaggerated and ridiculous, but we have the right to work it the same way the cheatin' repukes do.

we must say all that

plus

we need visuals

imagery

symbolism

i gulped when i saw their 'rosie the riveter' ad

with palin as rosie

where are our equivalent ads?

that r the r ad will SO resonate with the working class that WE need

if the media and the "polls" don't make this a close race, then who will turn out to vote? What stories will be left for the MSM to run every evening?

I told dh I can't find these huge crowds for McCain that everyone speaks of, you know the ones larger by far than any for Obama. I can't find any 50-50 split amongst the people we have spoken to about who they are going to vote for - and I live on the outskirts of a conservative ranching community, and also spend time in liberal environment an hour away.

Sure, I've found McCain supporters, but just a handful; even people who are wrestling through all their demons about why they are now thinking of voting Obama. On the phone, in the street, everywhere. And the whole deal about white women flocking to McCain in mass just because he chose a woman? One without apparent qualifications or experience? Who won't talk to anyone, like a submissive spouse? That isn't even close to ringing true when I hear it.

If the media came out and said, yup, the polls really show Obama 70, McCain 30, then would that effect be on the average american voter? For one, it wouldn't be such a horse race anymore - no Seabiscuit coming up from behind to surprise the crowd with a win. After doing my own "street" research, I have concluded that the polls are making no sense, and I am not watching them so much now.

But I don't think it is about a setup for a massive voter fraud on that kind of scale, so we differ in conclusion. I think mostly this is about the media keeping the horse race going, to keep their positions intact, and hope that voters who believe the race is close may turn out in numbers that we just haven't seen in awhile.

we drove through there fairly recently

i'm too lazy now to look and see if it's oregon or washington

but it's fairly east in the state?

it was solidly rethug country

oregon, e.g....drive through large swaths of this supposedly green, liberal state

and you see those 'get the us out of the un' and 'end world govt' billboards

solidly rethug country

Great points.

And yes, the Nielsen ratings have made this whole fraud a bit more transparent than usual.

Face it: This just doesn't pass the smell test. More people tuned in to see John McCain give a speech than watched Palin or Obama? America loves celebrities and spectacles, which is why -- as Nicho suggests -- it's plausible that Palin drew more viewers than Obama. But John McCain? Giving a speech?! Beat them both? No frickin' way.

The notion of legitimacy is vital to a presidential campaign, and the concept of a horse race is what keeps media ad revenues afloat. If a candidate is branded "unelectable" or "a loser," it creates a chain-reaction effect. People stop supporting him or her because they don't see the point. If a contest is perceived as lopsided, the sense of suspense is lost: people turn off their TVs. So the contest is kept close, just like any other "reality show" that has writers who make sure the action doesn't drag.

What makes this all worse is that we're all so easily distracted and led. We talk about pigs and lipstick and conveniently overlook less sensational stuff like the future of the country or that Bush signed a secret order to send American forces into Pakistan without that country's approval. Ho-hum.

The emphasis on the trivial at the expense of the essential then leads a significant portion of the voting population to cast their essential votes based on trivial factors. "I agree with Obama on almost everything, but that lipstick remark really annoyed me, so I'm voting for Palin and that other guy instead."

Ultimately, the polls that made the race look close and the ratings that made both campaigns look legitimate become self-fulfilling. In the end, cooler heads often prevail at the voting booth, but by then the election is close enough to steal, and an upset result becomes all too plausible.

celebrates superficiality, idiocy.....


however, it's also the case, imho, that rethugs are more skilled at framing, visuals, etc....

the 'rosie the riveter' ad, with palin as rosie was pure brilliance

it would resonate so deeply with the very demographic we so need

so, yes, your points are valid

but we're also slow learners

steal the election, nobody gets suspicious.

Which is why -- as others have also observed -- they've been dismissed as inaccurate.

as "proof" that they were able to pull another Repuke win from their collective asses, but exit polls are waaaaaaaay off. :grr:

because that is MY thinking, precisely

k/r

And I have yet to talk to one person that has not laughed their ass off about that Palin selection. I don't buy it... but what I'll tell you is that most polling organizations are either financed by REPUBLICANS, or they are using sampling methods that seem to guarantee a 50/50 split of ideaologies. Add to the fact that so many of us have no landline phones anymore.

No, I don't believe it. Considering that one of the oft-referenced, and touted by CNN, polls is done by a PR firm called Financial Dynamics which is run by Oliver Pawle, who was a CLIENT of lobbyist and co-Chair of McCain's campaign (Phil Gramm), how the hell are we supposed to believe their shit? They can make anything sound the way they want it to.

I never believed that 800 people represent ALL voters in America. Remember that.. they only call 800 to 1,000 people in these polls.

I live in an over-55 housing development -- 2,000 homes -- and hardly a Democratic stronghold. I go out and walk four miles every morning. I see lots of Obama signs. Today, I saw my first McCain sign.

You say "go out on the street and ask...", and you are right about that. But look at the county election results. Democrats clean up in populated, urban areas. You likely live and work in a city, or a suburb, and you see just that in everyday life.

But very large portions of the country, and of states, are not cities. They are rural areas that are populated by people that you don't find "out on the street" to ask about, or see their bumper stickers. And they are overwhelmingly conservative voters.

That's actually a pretty big problem for the democratic "ground game", we probably need to deal with. Most people are going to be out pounding the streets in urban areas, but we aren't going to have a lot of people in rural areas that are going to go for McCain.

I have worked at hq whereever I lived since 1988 well really since 1976, but as a voter since 1988 I am originally from Southern Ohio I have lived in several parts of the country since then. I was there in 2000 and it was an emotional roller coaster for everyone of us who worked our collected asses off, maybe yo hah sayers dont know it has been proven Al Gore won Florida so he would have won the electorial vote there,he won the popular vote country wide no argument can be made on that fact. I worked extra hard in 2004 only to watch them STEAL Ohio I know it was stolen it has been proven massive election fraus took place there and I hardly think RFK Jr can be considered a tinfiol hat wearer he even has done extensive investigations into it. 2006 would have been stolen but Rove got the MATH wrong, and way more people showed up than was expected. RFK Jr talks some about this. I believe though that there are way too many of us this time and there is no way to steal it without fudging the numbers I fell hope and I dont live in an urban area it's bullshit to say people in rural areas are republican and stupid, they are hurt really bad by this POS admins policies they can barely get to work what work is left and hate welfare or not they cant get it maybe foodstamps but thanks to these bastards they get no monetary help to remain in yheir homes, no money to get to jobs in urban areas it is a huge crisis most dont even know about cause it is not reported at all. It should be. Families are squeezing into 2 and 3 bedroom homes it is very sobering to see. No they are not even thinking about voting McSame they are not impressed by Palin

sorry about the horrid grammatical mess I have to work extra hours to feed my family

Obama's campaign cannot handle all of it and we all have to pitch in by calling from home, registering, donating. Or suffer the consequences.

The best use of this anger & frustration we feel is not to heap more abuse & attention onto Sarah Palin.
We need to be smart & realize that 5 swing states will be decided by a few percentage points.

If BARR siphons off 4%, Obama will win.
With Nader polling 3%, I think the outrage on DU ought to be directed in his direction.

and I was told I was a troll just for saying it. I got a "enjoy your stay" for thinking the polls are rigged. I apologize that I can't come up with a billion posts in a week. I don't think or type that fast.

or we will loose. McCain sent out 1 million ballots in Ohio! They are doing this in Florida too!

or we will loose. McCain sent out 1 million ballots in Ohio! They are doing this in Florida too!

I have to say this: I do not want to seem like a wet blanket or a party pooper but there are alot of racist people in the U.S. South and West. The Southern and Western polls are allmost solid red. If Obama was close to being elected by any big margin then Texas and Georgia would be close. They are not.

An example of a voters in Georgia *I think so typical of some others states as well*:

Northern Suburbs of Atlanta. These are Noth Fulton County cities of Roswell, Johns Creek, Alpharetta. Household incomes of $100,000 and up. Republican to the point of me seeing Romney signs during primaries. These people are the "soccer mom" types that live in fancy subdivisions and townhouses. Religous to the core as well. Bush voters all over. Same way with Gwinnet county, Forsyth county and other.

North Georgia hillbillies are not voting for a black man! Period!

South Georgia farmer and small town types are not going to vote for a black man!!! Period!!!

North Georgia = McCain

Northern, heavily populated suburbs = McCain

South Georgia = McCain.

All this = McCain win Georgia. 56 % to Obama's 44 % est.

Now onto the U.S.

Western state farmers, ranchers and mountain men types are NOT going to vote for a black man!!!

Southern hillbillies, white bussiness owners and wealthy suburb types who are most likley "Limbaugh or Neil Boortz" listeners are not going to vote for a black man!!! These people are Fox News and NFL watchers and beer drinkers. You know the type. Obama voters? No way!!!

Blacks are not going to vote enough to matter for Obama.

Obama faces a very uphill battle if there is fraud or there isn't. Its going to be close and going to sad probably. :(

Race is going to matter and not the polls. I hope I'm wrong but nearly solid red in West and South is a bad omen for election night. :(

and of course the exit polling will have gotten it wrong..."again"

And to be honest, if you believe that I'd say you're barking mad.

LOL. :applause: :yourock: That dog picture rocks!

(hint: it changed everything and killed thousands of innocent Americans), and those towers were most assuredly and obviously demolished with explosives, they can sure as hell about a lousy poll or two.

So, I agree with you fully. '04 was a shameless heist and yes it looks like '08 will be too. I hope I'm wrong about that.

that most people vote based on issues. From what I see, that is not the case.