Biden's comment that it's patriotic for those making over $250K being called a "flub" and a "gaffe"

by Contessa Brewer and Nora O'Donnell on MSNBC (so far). I fully expect this line to be used all day by everyone on MSNBC as the day goes on. When they ask Obama surrogates if it was a mistake, they point out that McCain said something similar after 9/11. But they keep going. :eyes:

How they could construe it that way?

to say that!

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/5050/story?id=5829962&page=1

and then you can see how it's being taken out of context.

:hi:

We as a Whole need to show that the corporate media is discrediting themselves.

I gotta go to work now but when I get back I will see this:patriot: :bounce:

but it's not patriotic for the wealthy to pay a little more for their Country?

It doesn't sound rational.

:rofl:

:woohoo:

when their fucked companies go bellyup, paying their fair share, not so patriotic.

...not by a long shot.


Hell, when you have Ben Stein and Warren Buffet and Bill Gates backing you up when you say it, it's crazy for us not to be sending the public that very message.

for the past 8 years while 2 wars rage on and vets are being denied benefits should be ashamed of themselves.

If they do back down, they will look like WIMPS.

It was a great line and a truthful one. The corporate media is fighting back against the economic populist one-liner by Biden because corporations are the greatest tax evaders in the world.

"How DARE Joe insinuate that rich people should be willing to give up their unneeded tax cut, for the sake of their country. The nerve!"

There is no We or For or By the Corporations.

Time to even things up boys.

the same talking heads who will self-righteously proclaim that Obama is full of S*&^ because he claims he's going to lower taxes on 95% of the people (how will you do that now? We're in economic crisis, is that responsible?) are the ones whining when Biden frames the increases likely to come back to the top income folks as patriotic.

Geez, if McCain pulled that, they'd be standing up and saluting.

see their taxes go up. It's all about me, trust me on this one...

but here in the SF Bay Area it's unfortunately barely scraping by.

area?

place in America to buy property.

Unless you decide to go for the multi-million dollar estates and decide not to work ever again.

:hi:

$250,000 in SF is like $145,000 here in Milwaukee. So I would have to double my salary in order to have a tax increase.

I can live with that.

a person making 145K in Milwaukee isn't considered rich, then a person making 250k in SF also shouldn't be considered rich. I wonder how many of the 3-4% of families with incomes over 250K/year live in places where 250K isn't exactly the dividing line between the rich and the middle class?

But we still love it. Wouldn't trade life here for life anywhere else. We've got the mountains and ski country within a couple of hours, we've got great weather practically all year round. We've got the ocean, one of the world's great cities, wine country. But we do pay through the nose for the privilege.

By the way, I don't make 250K myself. So I'm not even scraping by.

I was making $50K in the Bay Area two years ago, and did OK. Let's not exaggerate THAT much.

that 250K in the Bay Area is a lot less than it is in, say, Columbus Ohio or even, I would guess, Chicago Illinois. I mean in my town a smallish 3 bedroom apartment rents for 3500/month. That ain't chump change

But in SF, their shit don't stink, so don't you DARE suggest that they are less than perfect in any way! :D

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:yourock:

and comfortable.


Of course, they are relatives and come from the stock of tenant farmers (my grandparents) so they are made of some very stern stuff. :shrug:

Please don't continue under the delusion that everyone is making that much money.

I was just making the general point that in certain really expensive parts of the country -- like SF Bay Area -- what seems like an awful lot of money elsewhere, doesn't seem like so much. 250K is certainly a high salary even here. But people who make that much live in what anywhere else would be ordinary seeming middle class neighborhoods in ordinary seeming middle class houses.

Cause, apparently the median income in SF is $65,497
Median, mind you.

http://www.bayareacensus.ca.gov/counties/SanFranciscoCounty.htm
http://www.sfchamber.com/cost_of_living.htm

What Biden said is absolutely right on. We have 2 choices. We can either, as a country default, and try to rebuild from nothing. Or we can raise the money to pay our debts. To do that, we can either take the money from those propping up our economy(those making the least) or from those making more than $250k.

I live in OC and know what it takes to get by comfortably and it ain't 250k. I can pay the mortgage, take vacations, feed the family, put them in more activities than make sense. Do I like paying the taxes, hell no, but it pisses me off more that dollars are going to pay for a war in Iraq, to Halliburton, to Blackwater, and to pay interest against the debt because the repukes are ripping the Country off. By the way 20 years ago I got through college on student loans at very low interest rates. Now a person like I was back then couldn't get the loans at low rates, which likely means not making it through school, which means they won't make the money to pay taxes. Consider yourself blessed and don't bitch about another few hundred dollars in taxes.

I'm 52 years old and have NEVER made as much as $25,000 in a single year ... ever. I've lived in MI, FL, KY, SC, and in Orange County in Southern CA. I do not believe you know the meaning of 'barely scraping by'.

How do your public school teachers live, e.g.?

Cry me a river.

being patriotic is a very nice way of thinking about it.

Paying your fair share of taxes is patriotic. It's your duty.

I hate paying taxes as much as everyone else who works for a living. But government ain't free. The military isn't free. The courts and police and schools and fire departments aren't free. Roads aren't free, and regulations that keep the sharks from eating everyone else aren't free. Social safety nets like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid aren't free, and future programs, like universal health care won't be free either.

In order for society to work, we need government. And government costs money. That means we have to pay for it somehow, probably with taxes.

Quit bitching about your taxes. It's your patriotic duty to pay up. If you're rich, if you have that financial advantage, you have even more of a duty to society to pay your fair share to the society that gave you that advantage. I find it inconvenient when I'm summoned for jury duty, but I go, because it's my duty, and we need jurors to serve their role in the justice system so people get fair trials.

Quit bitching and do your duty!

pay taxes so that they can have armor

Now, McCain in Spain staying mainly insane....THAT's a gaffe

to equalize McCain's comment that "the fundamentals of the economy are strong." O'Donnell already compared the two statements. Apples and oranges.

There is no comparison...though, you could compare the fundamentals gaffe to McPalin's latest gaffes, that show just how out of touch they are...proposing something that your opponent already did, or proposing to fire, um, I mean ask for the resignation of someone , as a show of "reform"? Uhhkay. I hate MSNBC during the daytime, I really do.

However, it is patriotic to support a war and get a tax cut. Darn it I want my war and my tax cut.

I'ld quote one of the disabled Vet groups that donate to.

"Freedom isn't Free".

Oh the RWer's are also claiming that Obama WANTS a financial collapse to help him because of Candy C.'s opinion.

Let's see..if things were to heat up with Russion or Iran and we were to head to a war and it turns people's attention away from economics to foriegn policy...McCain's strong point...would these fools then be saying that "McCain wants war"?

The Illogic blows my mind. They are scared.

And I heard the other thing being repeated, too. They have no shame. Lie at all times.

Source: gcide
Patriotic \Pa`tri*ot"ic\, a. Inspired by patriotism; actuated by love of one's country; zealously and unselfishly devoted to the service of one's country; as, a patriotic statesman, vigilance.


Makes sense to me.

taxes isn't patriotic-it's just dumb. :eyes:

personally, if I was a surrogate asked that question , I would have to hold myself back from snapping.

Nothing about patriotism.

Two asswipes think it's not patriotic to pay your fair share in taxes? Who gives a damn. We have bigger fish to fry.

They are using it as raising taxes on everyone. And the idiot voter is out there

I am proud to pay every penny owed for the support of this fine nation and its brave men and women serving in its defense.

Call me stupid, but I sign my form and write my check every year with pride.

I am disgusted by the dime store "patriots" who wave flags with gusto but are loathe to materially support this country.

If you called it a "membership fee", these country club capitalists would sign up for a waiting list to pay it.

Everybody hates paying taxes. It's viewed almost universally as a necessary evil. Even saying that it's patriotic for the rich to be taxed will strike at voters' senses of fairness, especially the dumb ones who think they'll be rich too someday soon.

I think we'll need to see how this plays out, and how much the media picks up on it etc. This is an issue where dems traditionally have played defense and there are many more offensive opportunities to be had at the moment. Although on the bright side, In one way it may actually be somewhat beneficial because according to some polls half of americans still think that Obama's plan would raise their taxes and perhaps this news will have the effect of illustrating that it mainly affects the rich (but we'll still have to push hard to drive the truth home), Although like you mentioned how they will treat this information is an open question. At the same time it could be argued that despite many americans notion of fair play, in the current economic environment, the rich may not have the same pillars of sympathy as in other times, but we'll see.

In reference to paying taxes he called it a "patriotic duty". This was hardly the centerpiece of what he was saying in context.

Aside from which IT IS.

Sure nobody wants to pay taxes... until...

- they need a cop to show up when their place gets robbed
- when there is a fire and they need the fire department
- after driving into a moon crater pothole on a highway
- after they decide to read a book at a library
- after they decide to send their kid to a public school
- after they retire and want to get Social Security or Medicare or Medicaid

...etc.

You'd figure that people who have been GETTING A FREE RIDE for the last eight years might want to pitch in for a war or two that cost $5000/second.

What was everyone talking about greed yesterday for?

What Biden said was exactly the kind of thing I would say about people making over $250K a year paying more taxes.

When the media is so obviously ready to rip Obama at every step, Biden can't be giving them ANYTHING they can use as ammo.

The Dittoheads in my office were all over this, and when I pointed out that his comments only affected people earning $250K and up, they just went into a tizzy about Clinton promising basically the same thing and then "sticking us with the largest tax increase in history." I didn't have the time, sources or inclination to argue against their bullshit, especially since the press has made that line of theirs basically a truth by repetition.

The other side is now going to tell everyone that Obama's promises of a tax cut for the middle class is bullshit and that we''ll be told it's our patriotic duty to pay more even if we're poor. Nice going, Joe. They're going to use this one all the way to November.

Besides, even if as a Democrat I was making $250K, I don't want ANY politician - even one I like - saying that paying more is "patriotic." If taxes go up for me, I pay them because it's the law, not because I'm a fucking patriot.

What Biden said was a gift-wrapped chunk of ammo for McCombover and Caribou Barbie. It WAS a flub, it WAS a gaffe, and it was fucking stupid. Had he said "civic duty," there wouldn't be nearly the problem, but he said "patriotic." The press ignores similar comments from McStain but is already running with Biden's comment, and anyone at DU could have seen that coming. Biden should have been more careful, but instead he handed a gift to the GOP that they'll use right up to Election Day.

Just fucking great.

Hello? We have 2 wars going on.
Back in WWII people were willing to sacrifice, to buy gov't bonds to pay for the war ---

but nope - no more - not in GREEDY little America....and just LOOK at where that greed has gotten us.

I'm just saying that the same media which wants to paint Obama and Biden as pure socialists now have a big nugget to run with, and it was stupid for Biden to give it to them. I never said nor do I think anything close to what you suggested, and if I were you I wouldn't count on the media to point it out, either.

a better choice of words - but - Biden is not backing down on this.
He is trying to make a point, and he's right.

I imagine if the Obama camp wants him to shut up on this, they will tell him to.
We'll just have to wait and see how it plays out.

I've had this same argument with the Republican in my life and I can always shut him up.
Taxes pay for our troops, military, schools, roads - so much more. I always tell him to stay off the roads if he doesn't want to pay for them :)

I'd have stood up and applauded because he'd have been right. However, saying "patriotic" was a bad, bad, BAD idea.

In principle, what if a Republican said you shouldn't take tax deductions because we're at war and it's your patriotic duty to pay more? I don't know what your response would have been, but as someone who takes every deduction he can I would have made my two middle fingers act like a switchblade and flip him off. That's exactly how anyone who hates taxes and buys the Republican argument that Obama won't cut taxes for the middle class will react to Biden's gaffe.

I agree totally with your last line, and if we had a decent government right now I wouldn't feel overtaxed. However, we have the shittiest government in the nation's history and so I currently feel grossly overtaxed. Anyone who tells me that taxes are my civic duty will get no argument. Anyone who tells me that paying more is "patriotic" will be laughed at by me, even though I'm voting for his ticket.

If he meant "civic duty," which I believe he did, his message was spot on - but his delivery was, in my opinion, a stupid gaffe that Republicans will exploit. To what degree of success, as you said, we'll just have to wait and see how it plays out.

I think we're on the same side here, I'm just being harder on his phrasing than you are. :)

Guilliani had said the same thing to poor New York citizens after 9/11. While the rich folk didn't spend a dime or get taxed. Give me a break. This was not a flub or a gaffe.

I don't remember Guiliani saying that so I'll have to take your word for it, but he's a media darling just like McCain. He could have been caught getting oral sex from a ferret and the media would have buried it.

I believe it was a flub and a gaffe, in the political strategy sense anyway, and have outlined my reasons in a few posts above. If you don't, fine, but I'm not going to "give you a break" by saying "golly, you must be right." We simply don't share the same opinion on this.

This time the middle class agrees with Biden, and they are out numbered. No one cares about what he said, other than those making over 250K. This will not change the election, or sway any voters away from Obama.

Step away from the panic button. :eyes:

Oh, and spare me the "panic button" crap and the rolling eyes. I've been saying on this board that Obama is going to win and that I'm not worried, I just think it's stupid for Biden to make him work harder for it.

on a forum I moderate the dittoheads were going at this "gaffe" and how stupid Biden was. I promptly posted the Washington Post's USA Todayesque tax comparison chart and suddenly they got it. I'm not allowed to get political there but since it was just pure non-partisan information it was a lovely way to shut them the hell up.



It is patriotic to stop milking the US and start paying your share if you earn over 500K, which is the true breaking point between the two camps. Obama's plan *brings down* tax liability on earnings up to 200K in this chart. http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/numbers/displayatab.cfm?Docid=1976&DocTypeID=7 and the increase in tax liability at 500K is under $7,000. If you're making half a mil a year, you can probably find that on top of your dresser in the change dish.

I specifically love the second chart because it shows quite clearly that in McCain's proposal, a two-earner family with 3 kids making over 2 million a year will realize a $600 greater decrease in tax liability than a two-earner family with 3 kids making $75,000. That, my friends, is fucked up.

Believe me, your chart will be taped to a few desks later this morning. I appreciate this, thanks.

give 'em hell!

please feel free to PM me the link(s), and thanks again.

Welcome to DU, BTW. :)

to go look at their 401 k statement for 1999 and look at the returns, then they can look at their statements now, then they can figure out what they were paying for gas and energy in 1999 and compare it to now. Then maybe the dipshits will realize that they are bitching about the Clinton dime while the Bush dollars are being flushed down the crapper.

that not one of these dolts has a 401K, to be honest, but that's a good point. Still, they're going to act just like Hannity - if they think they have one point, they'll clamp onto it like a pit bull and talk about nothing else. They now have something they think they can mock, and they'll run with it.

They still make almost daily jokes about Gore's Internet remark. No Republican scandal is worthy of their attention, but they're still outraged by the whole Monica thing.

Did you ever see the South Park episode when Cartman kept saying "How can I reach these kids?" That's how I feel.

Here is the definition of patriotic;

Source: gcide
Patriotic \Pa`tri*ot"ic\, a. Inspired by patriotism; actuated by love of one's country; zealously and unselfishly devoted to the service of one's country; as, a patriotic statesman, vigilance.



Joe is asking people to do SOMETHING to help the country. WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THAT????

God, sometimes I swear, I can't believe we haven't put a system in place, to jettison people, who only care about themselves, OFF OF THE FUCKING PLANET.

Selfish. Fucking. Jerks. This country has been living off the back of the middle class, shoving it up their ASSES for far too long. IT'S OVER!!!! Tell the ditto heads, they are yesterday's news.

PS. If they won't listen to you, feel free to have them look me up!!

that the rich and greedy don't look at taxes as contributions, they look at them as confiscated property. When I brought up a similar point to yours today, one of the Rushbots responded with "then let them set up a charity that we can all donate to and see how it flies, because Biden is acting like a tax increase would be voluntary patriotism."

That's how they think. What you and I think about the rich paying their fair share is nothing more than outright communism to these people, and the ones dumb enough to think they'll be rich too and don't think Obama will stop at $250K think Biden came off as a joke. The guys I'm talking about all make roughly what I do (I make $37K) and would benefit more from Obama's plan than McCain's, and yet they treated Biden like a punchline all day.

Again, I personally don't look at paying taxes as patriotism, I look at it as a civic duty. Like you, I've been forced to fund the war in Iraq, and I'm not wild about that at all. Those who don't understand economics well are going to see Biden's words as "giving more to us, as if you had a choice, is patriotic." Not "your civic duty," which is what I believe he meant, but "patriotic." Hell, I'm on Biden's side and even I think he came off like a used car salesman.

There's a difference between a reasonable message and reasonably decent delivery of it. In today's political climate so close to an election, I believe Biden's wording was stupid. Not his message, his wording. Your mileage may vary.

remind them that they are still going to be paying less than the did under Raygun. Technically, Obama is not "raising" their taxes, he's just rolling them back to the Clinton years.

PS. Start looking for a new job. You'll be miserable there with all those losers after Obama wins. ;-)

I won't look for a new job until well after Obama wins. I'm already looking for a sale on Kleenex, and when I find one I'm going to buy boxes and boxes and put them on the desks of these assholes the day after Obama wins.

After all the shit I've taken from these dicks, do you honestly think I'll deprive myself of seeing them go into a post-Obama-victory meltdown? Not a chance!

:)

Biden and Obama should just not say anything until after the election.

If your office mates are dittoheads, they are going to be fed crap no matter what happens. Obama could invent a free energy machine, cure cancer, and end world hunger in the next 30 days, and the message they would get is that Obama stole jobs from Coal miners, Doctors, and Farmers. There is no winning with some.

But if you are going to get through to them, then "patriotism" is it. I am not motivated by it, as compared with something like "doing right", but that is one of the big harpoons that the right aims at us. There is absolutely nothing wrong with framing what HAS to happen (tax increase on those making the most) as an issue that should shoot right to the heart of an argument pointed at us all too often.

IT WAS NOT A FLUB, GAFFE, nor any other negative you care to label it. It was a moment of aimed honesty. Your exasperation notwithstanding.

Thinking that you're going to influence a bunch of flag-waving war mongerers who think "a thousand of them ain't worth one of ours" by telling them that having the government take more from them is patriotism is like telling a girl you're interested in that she looks fat in those jeans.

Biden is now going to be treated like a punchline until November. The essense of his message was reasonable, but his delivery will be exploited by a McCain-friendly media until the votes are counted. I can just hear it now: "I believe that patriotism is love of your country and defense of this great nation, and my opponent's running mate thinks it's you having less of your own money to spend and government having more." You and I know what bullshit that is, but I never underestimate the stupidity of the average voter or the Republican ability to exploit the media and twist words.

I'd like a nice, easy win instead of a closer one, thanks. Oh, and by the way, my criticism of that ONE remark from Biden is in no way meant to be anything as stupid as my saying he and Obama should say nothing until after the election, so please spare me whatever that was - sarcasm, errant assumption, putting words in my mouth or whatever.

Biden was always going to be treated like a punchline. If he didn't say something easily twisted, they would have found something not so easy and torqued it to fit.

As to "Thinking that you're going to influence a bunch of flag-waving war mongerers who think "a thousand of them ain't worth one of ours" by telling them that having the government take more from them is patriotism is like telling a girl you're interested in that she looks fat in those jeans."

The same is true of saying anything. Any. Thing. And as long as the rightists will attack every point we make, I would rather see our guys be honest than to see them hide, to cede it. You might as well say it, because your damned if you do and damned if you don't.

And my "sarcasm" is a response to the general attitude that we need to walk some super careful line. You are one person, criticizing one comment. But there has been a stream of people doing exactly that for months now. And if Obama and Biden were to listen to each of them, then they would be fully gagged. I don't buy it.

This comment by Biden has all the potential to be exploited and twisted the same way Gore's Internet remark was. I hope it doesn't happen, but I just have a feeling that what Biden said will come back to haunt us. I don't think it'll cost us the election, but I think Biden just made Obama have to work harder.

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am. We'll see.

That might explain it...

Give tax deductions for adult children in the military, maybe double for those in combat. Make the deduction higher for the rich. Then they can ease their terrible burden by getting their kids to enlist. They don't have to feel patriotic about the taxes they pay cause they'll have a child "in harm's way," which is, of course, much more patriotic than paying to support their government.

Works for me!

They claim they'll have to pack their marbles up and go away.

WELL GO RIGHT AHEAD!!

Finally there will be opportunity for all. There's plenty ready to come in a fill the void. They can carry their acts to Red China and see how the market treats them there and we'll suck it up and rebuild a real America.

That's all this is. BRANDING.

by those who can best afford it (and in some cases, made money off of it), to pay for the war is patriotic. I'd love to see how they can weasel their way out of that statement.

Think about it. ;)

He's got that combination of intelligence and compassion that we need as VP. And he's the salt of the earth...a regular guy with no trace of the BS that envelops the rethug candidates.

Sarah really is Palin comparison to Joe.

"Put your money where your mouth is."

NO GAFFE, NO FLUB.

They say paying taxes is patriotic, and they strategically leave out the key phrase of Biden's speech "for those earning over $250,000" and seem to get away with it with no context pointed out by the MSM. THe implication is that they will raise your taxes because it is patriotic, the truth is for 95% of Americans who earn under $250,000, this is not the case, but leave it to the MSM to gloss over this fact. McShameful. Haven't we had enough doublespeak and lies from the Bush era? Obama and Biden should NOT BACK DOWN ON THIS POINT, THEY SHOULD CLARIFY THE CONTEXT OF WHAT HE SAID AND KEEP PUSHING UNTIL IT IS UNDERSTOOD BY THE MSM BOBBLE HEADS.

The Republicans desperately need to keep people believing in the tax-cuts/trickle-down mantra. Some people don't like paying taxes to support other people. But Biden was very smart by recasting it as supporting our COUNTRY, and that it is our patriotic duty to pay for what we spend. Put in that light, people may start to reconsider their knee-jerk reaction to taxes. With that issue gone, the Republicans will truly be sunk. The only reason that they think it is a gaffe, is because conventional wisdom is that raising taxes is the third rail in politics, and the mere suggestion would be instant death to a campaign. But after what has happened this week, I'm not sure that is the case.

And it was seen as patriotic to pay income taxes (originally for high earners) to help fund the country, and.. it's defense.

We're now in the phase of BS non-story stories... the desperate right wing schills paid to make a big deal out of every statement.