Pennsylvania's voting machines are almost ENTIRELY electronic, without any paper trail.

Interest in Pennsylvania is picking up. McCain's camp seems to have conceeded that if they don't win PA, they will lose the electoral college (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/20/mccain-camp-looking-for-way-to-win-without-colorado/). There has been much talk about McCain putting all his chips in PA (including bringing back Wright, bittergate, etc etc).

Given the spotlight and speculation about PA, it is important to remember that the state almost entirely votes on electronic voting machines that have no paper record whatsoever (including in Democratic strongholds such as Philadelphia). The following is a map of PA, color-coded by the type of voting equipment.

http://www.verifiedvoting.org/verifier/map.php?&topic_string=5std&ec=mixed&year=2008&state=Pennsylvania

As Brad on Bradblog.com states, elections in PA therefore become entirely faith-based. There is no evidence whatsoever that any votes were cast at all for most of PA. There is plenty of evidence that it is relatively easy for machines to be hacked to silently flip approximately every 25th or every 50th vote only during election hours, which would be hard (if not impossible) to detect.

So what happens if pre-election polling puts Obama ahead by 8%, exit polls have him ahead by 6%, and yet McCain wins by 1%?

The exit polls were off over 6% in the primary (and they were also off in the 2004 presidential election by a similar amount). Exit pollsters will simply chalk it up to older voters not wanting to be interviewed by younger pollsters, non-response bias due to a Bradley affect, and various other excuses (outlined here: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14778.html).

But let's say that excuse doesn't fly (or that Obama wins by double digits in all polls yet still loses). Let's say Obama's massive legal team takes the election to court. Let's even say the court can be persuaded that fraud occured (possibly enough to swing the election). It would be very unlikely that a court could be convinced of this, but let's say for the sake of argument that they are convinced.

What could possibly be done? Even if the court found evidence of fraud, what could possibly be done to correct the outcome? There wouldn't be any way to recount or audit any of the votes. The only possible way the election could be resolved would be to have another election.

This would be unprecedented. But even if the court would agree to such a massive remedy (which again is very unlikely), how would that work? Would the election be on the same voting equipment? Or would they switch to paper ballots (a process which has taken many other states months or years to implement)? How would people know to come out and vote again? Would turnout even approximate the turnout on election day?

The one thing that bodes well for Democrats is that there is a Democratic secretary of state (which might prevent some fraud). But my whole point is that even if we don't have a Blackwell or a Harris in charge of elections, what could possibly be done if the results on election day diverge so much from all reasonable polling?

Finally, some would say that we don't actually need PA, and that we have many other paths to victory. This is a very dubious proposition. Even if we win Colorado, Virginia, Iowa, and New Mexico (plus all the Kerry states), losing PA would cost us the election. We would need to win those 4, as well as Florida, Ohio, North Carolina, or Nevada. This is possible, but it certainly isn't guaranteed (especially given that the national polls are expected to tighten somewhat, which will slightly lower Obama's margins in most swing states).

We need to win PA by a margin that is impossible to steal (if such a margin exists). That is why it is a good thing for Obama's campaign to spend large amounts of money and time. A 5 or 6 point victory may not cut it (and even that would be double Kerry's margin of victory).



Edit: a poster below saw firsthand evidence of a paper trail in part of Philadelphia, so it is possible that the above site is out of date for some areas.

Looks like all the pieces are falling into place for the Repiggies to steal it again. CRAP! :cry:

Everyone should recommend this thread!

If anything my money is on the Dems cheating in PA. :rofl:

Yes I think it could happen.

I thought it was proprietary.

x(

I'm sure there's a better idea, but I can't think of it. I'm just grateful Los Angeles uses paper ballots.


PS: I hope the massive legal team Obama has engaged sends a hefty detachment to Pennsylvania.

really, this idea of giving voters some sort of receipt is kind of weird to me. What would they do? Someone demands a recount and they try to round up millions of receipts (those that aren't thrown away) and count them? Even if you were to cross reference some tracking number to see if a particular vote was switched as 'evidence' wouldn't a rigged system just display the original informtion, but tabulate bogus information?

Millions of cell phone photos would be even more useless and unmanageable, and more susceptible to fraud or allegations of fraud.

We should have the fucking UN or Canada run our elections...

I do agree about the need for a paper trail, but I can't believe how we can decode the human genome, but we can't find an accurate and tamper-proof way to vote?

evidence of their fucking vote. Just fucking nuts!

Or like "send to email address" for records. It's so ridiculous. When you book a flight or buy shit online, they always send you a confirmation email.

For example, if we win by a 10% margin, more votes would have to be flipped (which might make it more likely that someone would find out before the election). It's not a guarantee, but its better than nothing.

nt

Obama up by an average of 12 points, McCain hasn't led in a single poll done there since April, PA went blue for Kerry when conditions were better for the Republicans....

And I should be concerned?

But that doesn't stop local election officials or even fraudsters that don't work for the government to slip in a card with a virus that flips votes. This has been demonstrated as possible many times (see "Hacking Democracy").

There is obviously a massive conspiracy that has buried impossible-to-trace programs in all voting machines of the state, and there's nothing we can do about it. We might as well just give up.

And my entire point is that we shouldn't give up. One way to defeat them is to make it much harder to steal by pouring more resources into the state (making the margin much harder to overcome). Especially since spending more resources in PA won't hurt any other state (given the 150 million dollars Obama got last month).

Ohio: Democratic governor, Democratic Sec of State, both of who will make sure the votes are counted accurately.

Please understand this: the actual capturing and tabulating of the ballot is done by, and with devices provided by, PRIVATE INDUSTRY. For a fact, BOE's cannot run an election without 'contractors' from these companies. Companies that, with one exception, are owned by Dominionist Republicans.

Brunner and Strickland are good people, glad I voted for them. But they do not control the vote.

I find it hard to believe that some Repuke was able to get to ALL of the machines.


Does anybody know if they received a "software upgrade" from Diebold in the past year?

They have been huge proponents of the paperless voting systems.
Voting rights activists have been v. frustrated by the response to their concerns by both Rendell and Cortez -- neither of them seem to "get it" about voting machines, or, worse yet, understand the issue but don't really care.

...THAT gives me comfort that the Repukes haven't corrupted the machines.

If he can cast out spirits he can surely cast in a few as well. He will simply put a hex on the voting machines.

:snark:

need to do their fucking job - select a random sample of voting machines from around the state and put them through extensive tests prior to 11/4 to make sure they are not programmed to 'flip' votes. Do not allow any "patch" to be installed on the machines (like in GA in 2002) before the election, and ensure that they are not able to be accessed remotely. Similar tests should be run on the central vote tabulation system, in case that is where the 'flip' is programmed to happen.

If the election is stolen in PA, our party leaders will share at least a small part of the blame - they have had SIX YEARS to fix this problem, and have apparently sat on their hands. We can only hope that more has been done behind the scenes than they have let on!

Now that we have first hand testimony that GA Senator race was stolen, no Democrat should ever trust electronic voting again.

And yet our leaders have done next to nothing.

They must like to 'lose' elections!

Now this would explain things, wouldn't it? They plan to steal PA!

barring some unforeseen massively game-changing 'October Surprise' - although if something like that happened he wouldn't NEED PA because there are tons of other states where Obama's lead is smaller.

So the ONLY explanation for this so-called 'strategy' is that they think they can somehow steal it!

hardly anyone gave a shit. So here we are, all these years later, with faith-based voting in far too many places.

Sucks to the max.

There is NO sense in McCain quitting Colorado and doubling down in Pennsylvania. None.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x7539640

(Forgive me i can't remember the offical title is) and double check that we are is on the records.

I got to see it first hand when I ran for committeeman.

They aren't touch screen electronic either. They are that plastic coated blinking light type. I'll find out the exact model.

if we see problems and call it in to the HQ, the campaign will have attorneys at the polling place in 15 minutes.....15 minutes. I hope this is true. Colorado has paper ballots and only a very limited amount of electronic voting machines (at least for Boulder County). I was told by an election judge that there would only be one electronic machine per precinct (very single threaded) and paper ballots for everyone. It would appear they are trying to promote paper over electronic.

I am working the actual polls just to do my part to watch how it works but I haven't had my training yet. I am curious if youa re a poll worker but you will call a campaign if there is a problem?

so we the campaign can then call anyone who hasn't voted (who has already indicated support) and see if they need a ride, if they're still planning to show up, etc. I haven't had my training yet either, but I've been working in the campaign office and picked up on some things.

I am actually an election worker but I will contact my local Obama office for that number to call that if I see anything I will try and get away to call if necessary. I am working a small PA district with touchscreen machines. I will more than likely be the main person with the machines which is why I volunteered. I'd hate for someone to lose a vote because a poll worker is afraid of computers.

the DRE/touch screen machines have no ballots to smuggle out of the neighborhood, the ultimate election theft................

STOP THE BULLSHIT

Transparent Ballot Box, for 500 - 800 Paper Ballots, with Deposit Trap and Counter
Easy to use, sturdy and stackable. Lockable with two individual locks. Deposit trap is operated using a lever which is coupled with the counter. Can be safely stored in the reusable protective box.



Hand Count the Ballots before the ballots are allowed to leave the polling place.

We all know better for christ sakes



K&R........

limited in population that maybe only 12 people would come and vote. and because of such few in number, the poll worker would be able to remember who came in before who and look at the tape roll to see who so-and-so voted for.

so because of that the entire state (except philly) is fucked out of a paper trail?

BUT then the voters can go to either of at least two machines. I believe even in the smallest precincts, there has to be at least two machines in case one breaks. So, even if you know who voter # 6 was, how do you know which machine they voted on? Unless the poll workers only opened one machine, which in my county is illegal.

In short even that is a bogus reason.

Neither party has any advantage over the other when it come to cheating. Sometimes you
just have to trust the system. No one party could hack the system enough to make any kind of difference in election outcome.

I raised the issue of a paper trail with my county commissioners in PA a few years ago, when they were selecting the new machines. At that time, they said that none of the officially "certified" machines had a paper trail. They had to order certified machines to receive the Federal funding.

So long as neither candidate gets to 50% of the electoral votes, Obama wins.

If they try to steal this and exit polls show a double digit lead, the fraud will be obvious, and the game, at long last, will be over for the fascists.

:kick:

MSNBC reported on that this morning. Looks like that & machine manipulations will be their primary efforts to flip PA.

and we elected a lot of Dems in 2006 with the electronic machines, many of which have a feature to verify your vote before it is registered, at least the ones I have used.

The ballots stay inside the machine till they are sent to the Elections Board at the end of the night (in case a recount is needed).

We also have a computer-screen method (not touch-screen ... you use a wheel to navigate the menus), which is supposed to be for those with disabilities (though others use it). That has no paper trail.

One of our assigments as Democratic volunteer greeters outside the polling place will be to remind people to use the paper ballots so there will be a paper trail.