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McCain did NOT crash his plane during the Cuban Missle Crisis!

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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 05:37 PM
Original message
McCain did NOT crash his plane during the Cuban Missle Crisis!
and he didn't set the Carrier Deck on fire! Just to let everyone know...
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. Where are these examples of being tested that he keeps referring to?
:shrug:
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Who the hell knows?
McCain makes absolutely no sense at all whatsoever. "Word salad".
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endthewar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Do you dare question a POW?
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. He took a lot of tests at Annapolis...
and apparently failed lots of them in order to graduate at the bottom of his class
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. Well, when DID he crash his plane then?
I don't mean the crash in Spain or that other one. I mean the one in the Caribbean. Kinda hard keeping his plane crashes straight, though.

Yeah, I guess there's nothing to that story that he deliberately caused his plane to shoot out a ball of flame from the exhaust, thereby causing the plane behind him to accidentally fire a missile into his plane, thereby setting the whole Forrestal on fire. That story has been--well, maybe not exactly debunked, but at least thoroughly denied, by the officers that covered it up investigated it.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. They probably transferred him right away so he wouldn't get fragged.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. That's what I figure.
They had him off that ship in a helicopter before they evacuated the wounded. Well, I suppose that fast action did avoid one more casualty.
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Amerigo Vespucci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. USS Forrestal, July 29th, 1967: McCain hid in ready room, watching real heroes on closed-circuit TV
Anyone has a link to disprove this one, feel free to post it.

:patriot:

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/make_believe_maverick_the_real_john_mccain/page/3

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/make_believe_maverick_the_real_john_mccain/page/4

TRIAL BY FIRE

Sometimes 3 a.m. moments occur at 10:52 in the morning.

It was July 29th, 1967, a hot, gusty morning in the Gulf of Tonkin atop the four-acre flight deck of the supercarrier USS Forrestal. Perched in the cockpit of his A-4 Skyhawk, Lt. Cmdr. John McCain ticked nervously through his preflight checklist.

Now 30 years old, McCain was trying to live up to his father's expectations, to finally be known as something other than the fuck-up grandson of one of the Navy's greatest admirals. That morning, preparing for his sixth bombing run over North Vietnam, the graying pilot's dreams of combat glory were beginning to seem within his reach.

Then, in an instant, the world around McCain erupted in flames. A six-foot-long Zuni rocket, inexplicably launched by an F-4 Phantom across the flight deck, ripped through the fuel tank of McCain's aircraft. Hundreds of gallons of fuel splashed onto the deck and came ablaze. Then: Clank. Clank. Two 1,000-pound bombs dropped from under the belly of McCain's stubby A-4, the Navy's "Tinkertoy Bomber," into the fire.

McCain, who knew more than most pilots about bailing out of a crippled aircraft, leapt forward out of the cockpit, swung himself down from the refueling probe protruding from the nose cone, rolled through the flames and ran to safety across the flight deck. Just then, one of his bombs "cooked off," blowing a crater in the deck and incinerating the sailors who had rushed past McCain with hoses and fire extinguishers. McCain was stung by tiny bits of shrapnel in his legs and chest, but the wounds weren't serious; his father would later report to friends that Johnny "came through without a scratch."

The damage to the Forrestal was far more grievous: The explosion set off a chain reaction of bombs, creating a devastating inferno that would kill 134 of the carrier's 5,000-man crew, injure 161 and threaten to sink the ship.

These are the moments that test men's mettle. Where leaders are born. Leaders like . . . Lt. Cmdr. Herb Hope, pilot of the A-4 three planes down from McCain's. Cornered by flames at the stern of the carrier, Hope hurled himself off the flight deck into a safety net and clambered into the hangar deck below, where the fire was spreading. According to an official Navy history of the fire, Hope then "gallantly took command of a firefighting team" that would help contain the conflagration and ultimately save the ship.

McCain displayed little of Hope's valor. Although he would soon regale The New York Times with tales of the heroism of the brave enlisted men who "stayed to help the pilots fight the fire," McCain took no part in dousing the flames himself. After going belowdecks and briefly helping sailors who were frantically trying to unload bombs from an elevator to the flight deck, McCain retreated to the safety of the "ready room," where off-duty pilots spent their noncombat hours talking trash and playing poker. There, McCain watched the conflagration unfold on the room's closed-circuit television — bearing distant witness to the valiant self-sacrifice of others who died trying to save the ship, pushing jets into the sea to keep their bombs from exploding on deck.

As the ship burned, McCain took a moment to mourn his misfortune; his combat career appeared to be going up in smoke. "This distressed me considerably," he recalls in Faith of My Fathers. "I feared my ambitions were among the casualties in the calamity that had claimed the Forrestal."

The fire blazed late into the night. The following morning, while oxygen-masked rescue workers toiled to recover bodies from the lower decks, McCain was making fast friends with R.W. "Johnny" Apple of The New York Times, who had arrived by helicopter to cover the deadliest Naval calamity since the Second World War. The son of admiralty surviving a near-death experience certainly made for good copy, and McCain colorfully recounted how he had saved his skin. But when Apple and other reporters left the ship, the story took an even stranger turn: McCain left with them. As the heroic crew of the Forrestal mourned its fallen brothers and the broken ship limped toward the Philippines for repairs, McCain zipped off to Saigon for what he recalls as "some welcome R&R."
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Jonah. n/t
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Dennis Donovan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. That's what I've always read...
:thumbsup:
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Amerigo Vespucci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. A DU poster got his / her undies in a bunch when I posted this previously...
called it a "hit piece" and "lies"...

I didn't bother responding.

But other DUers DID.

The "Make-Believe Maverick" story in Rolling Stone is the real McCain, until someone steps up and PROVES...with documentation, not just a love of McCain...that it's lies.

The "agitated" DU poster was challenged to produce evidence to the contrary.

Guess what? NO EVIDENCE, just a pissing contest.

McCain is a life-long screw-up and his wife is a drug addict. The truth is NEVER pretty.

Yeah, the Vietnamese busted him up. That will never be "right," that can NEVER be justified.

All kinds of bad things happen to people, 7 days a week, 24 hours a day. The fact that bad things happened to them doesn't make them good people or bad people.

It makes them people in the path of bad things. And it DOESN'T automatically qualify them to be President of the United States.

Such is life.

:patriot:
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. I thought once in Tampa Bay.
Flying too low and couldn't make a turn.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. That sorta sounds right.
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Dennis Donovan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. He cracked one up in training, he dumped one into the Gulf of Mexico...
Edited on Wed Oct-22-08 06:11 PM by Dennis Donovan
...because of inadequate power settings while landing and there's a third one that ripped down powerlines in Spain, causing a blackout.

The Forrestal fire was caused by a Zuni missle which accidently fired, hitting the aircraft next to McCain's, slicing through its external fuel tank and causing the initial fireball. Both McCain's A-4 and the one next to it had their jet exausts facing outboard towards the sea (as was the F-4 - which fired the Zuni rocket - on the opposite side of the flight deck).

Here's a diagram showing the placement of the planes and how they were placed on the flight deck:



The two, smaller aircraft in the red circle on the right are #405 and #416 (#416 was McCain's plane). The larger plane in the red circle on the left is the F-4 from which thw Zuni rocket came from.

A similar fire happened on the USS Enterprise in 1969 when another Zuni rocket cooked off, but THAT time, it was caused by an aircraft forward of it starting up.
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
21. Nope, no wet start. See post #17 for acft placement on deck. nt
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ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. In one way or another, McCain has been involved in five naval
aircraft accidents. (That might be an all time record in naval aviation.)

Three training accidents, one on the Forestall deck and was shot down over Viet Nam.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
5. He could see Cuba from his Cockpit!
And followed orders.

That was his test.

And that was 45 years ago.
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rufus dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
7. He would have succeeded
If called on to take off he would have crashed, he just wasn't given the opportunity. He was ready to crash and experienced in crashing, sometimes you just have to take what you get.

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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. This thread is getting sicker by the minute.
Gawd, I love it!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
9. Two True Facts
(1) John McCain was tested when he had to select a VP. He failed.

(2) John McCain's campaign has crashed.

Experience you can count on.
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
12. But did they let him take off?
I'm just saying that they likely knew him -- and didn't want any "incidents" in the midst of a crisis.
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amber_86 Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
15. The
rocket didn't hit McCains jet but the one next to his(it's on film)so he decided to drop his bomb on the deck,bail out and watch the fire on closed circuit down where he was safe instead of helping his fellow man.Go figure.
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Dennis Donovan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. They say he accidently (oops!) dropped his ordinance onto the deck upon egress...
...from the cockpit. Given the fireball underneath him, I'll cut him a pass for this. However, he beat feet down into the hangar deck instead of helping his shipmates fight the fire. Sorry, but it's hard to cut him a pass there.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
29. Sorry, but the missile cut through his fuel tanks and he in fact had
to jump off the nose over/through the fire. Just read the Rolling Stone article referred to above.

His plane had been loaded with bombs left over from (before?) WWII that had been sitting in the tropics for about 20 years. They were so hazardous that the Forrestal's munitions officer refused to accept delivery until he was overruled by the captain. Any heat or vibration would have set those bombs off.

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Dennis Donovan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. The original report said it was not his a/c - he was in the next a/c (#416)
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Democrats_win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
23. Read Rolling Stone: McCain did not lend a hand to fight Forrestal fire, then he left.
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/23316912/makebelieve_maverick/print

As the ship burned, McCain took a moment to mourn his misfortune; his combat career appeared to be going up in smoke. "This distressed me considerably," he recalls in Faith of My Fathers. "I feared my ambitions were among the casualties in the calamity that had claimed the Forrestal."

The fire blazed late into the night. The following morning, while oxygen-masked rescue workers toiled to recover bodies from the lower decks, McCain was making fast friends with R.W. "Johnny" Apple of The New York Times, who had arrived by helicopter to cover the deadliest Naval calamity since the Second World War. The son of admiralty surviving a near-death experience certainly made for good copy, and McCain colorfully recounted how he had saved his skin. But when Apple and other reporters left the ship, the story took an even stranger turn: McCain left with them. As the heroic crew of the Forrestal mourned its fallen brothers and the broken ship limped toward the Philippines for repairs, McCain zipped off to Saigon for what he recalls as "some welcome R&R."







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vagabund Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
25. Only one of the 5 plane crashes were due to McCain's error
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. And the other 4 were the media's fault. nt
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vagabund Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. That's not what the factcheck.org website says
it does not fault the media. It faults other conditions. Did you read it?
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I read it and it said that gremlins from MSNBC messed with the
controls and screwed up the planes.
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Dennis Donovan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-23-08 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. The crash into Tampa Bay & the power line incident in Spain WERE his fault...
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