Rec if you want to tell Obama: NO PARDON FOR BUSH

We cannot let George W. Bush get away with his crimes the same way Richard Nixon did!

I haven't heard anyone suggesting that he would.

Just because nobody's talking about it in the open doesn't mean that someone isn't whispering into Obama's ear that it might be a great idea.

I don't think Obama will pardon Bush, but I also know that Bush will never be investigated.

You say you "know" he'll never be investigated. As I'm telling everybody else, it's just a matter of opinion.

I'll bet you, right now, a $20 donation to any charity that Obama does not prosecute George Bush.

Same pledge as yours. There will be no prosecuting of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Gonzales or anyone from the Bush administration initiated by the Obama WH.

Indeed, there's already talk about giving Colin Powell a new job.

Seeing as how they need it.
Since we already pretty much know the outcome, sadly.

I believe Bush and his administration will all get off. Even Scotter Libby will get off after he is pardoned in January.

I doubt a pardon will be anywhere close to the top of Obama's list - especially after Bush pardons his entire administration on January 19, 2009.

Nixon made Ford VP and then Pres - Ford was then indebted to Tricky Dicky. Besides that was just another case of republicans taking care of republicans. PE Obama doesn't owe Bush a damn think - unless you count destroying the republican party.

would pardon Nixon and he said he hasn't thought it through. A month later he did pardon him.

nobody is going to prosecute him. Sorry, but that's the truth.

There is still something called "The Establishment" in Washington. If they aren't willing to even recognize he's guilty of crimes , they won't prosecute him .

It's just your opinion.

and this a political board and it's a reasonable opinion

See: Richard Nixon.

http://www.google.com/search?q=bush+indictment&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS245US246

Last month, a former Roman Catholic Bishop with leftist, populist tendencies, Fernando Lugo, surprised almost everyone in Paraguay, and no doubt President Bush, by winning the national presidential election, ousting the Colorado Party for the first time in 61 years. There is talk that among other things, Lugo is thinking of returning Paraguay to the community of nations, by signing some of those extradition agreements.

If he does that, Bush may be stuck having to hide behind his rump squad of Secret Service agents down at the Crawford Ranch, hoping they can keep the process servers from Brattleboro and Marlboro, VT, with their war crimes arrest warrants, at bay.
http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/lindorff/094

Chicago -- August 2, 2005 -- TomFlocco.com -- U.S. federal prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald’s Chicago grand jury has voted perjury and obstruction of justice indictments to the following members of the Bush Administration: President George W. Bush, Vice-President Richard Cheney, Bush Chief of Staff Andrew Card, Cheney Chief of Staff I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez, former Attorney General John Ashcroft, imprisoned New York Times reporter Judith Miller and former Senior Cheney advisor Mary Matalin.
http://www.tomflocco.com/fs/BushCheneyIndicted.htm

Not to mention, he can be charged anywhere in the world.

Obama knows what we want. Plus when the Dems finally get in there and see how deep the rabbit hole goes I think Bush and his friends will be moving to a country without extradition laws. Judging from the crimes we have seen on the surface I can only imagine what went on behind closed doors. There is some serious reconciliation coming.

Since this is real life, Bush will probably get away with his crimes. That is what happens, not only for the big fish in life like Bush, but also for lots of little fish. It's an age old question: why do the wicked prosper? Or, why do good things happen to bad people? We can get all twisted up in knots about how it is not fair, but Republicans also scream bloody murder that it's not fair when somebody get welfare or benefits that they do not deserve.

President Obama will have some big, big problems on his plate with a failing economy and 2 wars, so don't look for him or a Democratic Congress to go after Bush for his personal wrongdoing, making it the focal point of everything for months and months to the exclusion of other things. It won't happen, but I do look for both President Obama and Congress to go about remedying what Bushco has done to this country for the last 8 years,

This has got to change. I know you say it's just reality, but you know what, if people really stay persistent about changing something, it can happen. There have been many battles in the past that have taken a while to accomplish. Sure reality is what it is. But things can be changed if people really put their minds and heart into it and not let up. That's all I'm saying.

That was my message to the "not gonna happen" crowd. We elected the first black president on Tuesday. How many times have you been told before it would never happen in this lifetime?

He has yet to be convicted for any of his crimes.

bank on it.

...the Bush criminals. I know you and so many other naysayers act like you're so certain they're going to get away with everything, but the truth is you don't KNOW that for certain. Nobody can truly predict the future. It's just your opinions. Nobody's right, nobody's wrong.

Someone will be right and someone will be wrong. I like my odds. Time will tell.

And I guess if I'm a naysayer, that makes you a dreamer?

It would be a crime if he wasn't.

Time to get over it and move on.

Nothing will happen to Bush.

That's what we did when Ford pardoned Nixon and after all the Iran Contra pardons. Look where it got us. They're going to keep coming back to do it over and over again.

...to the "they'll get away with it" and "move on" crowd.

We're going to keep fighting to bring these criminals to justice as long as we need to. We're going to keep doing it whether you like it or not. We aren't going to sit back and allow the criminals to come back and do it again in the future. Nothing you say or do will stop us from fighting.

If you want to say to the rest of the world that torture and war crimes are okay, and that lawlessness is acceptable, that's your decision. If you want to tell your children that some people are above the law and that they can grow up to become president and abuse their executive power freely, be my guest.

You won't bring us down or stop us from doing what's right. There, I'm finished.

I will never be "done" with it. Not until justice is served.

:kick: :kick: :kick:

As much as I hate to admit it, you're right.

If he were to allow Bush to be prosecuted, that would tear the country apart, which is the opposite of what Obama wants. There are so many important issues to deal with now such as the economy and energy policy, that the last thing Obama will want will be to distract the country with something like prosecuting Bush. Therefore it will not happen and there will be no need to pardon Bush.

That is my prediction.

Like anybody cares (besides Babs)

Perhaps even in less than a year. Sorry, but it's true. He's already not "all there".

I'd rather see Cheney, Rummy and the other neo-cons pay the piper anyway - they were the brains behind the puppet. (Although Cheney may not make it through a war tribunal either - those can last years and years).

and the rest of the White House felons. It will be a done deal a couple days or hours before Obama takes the oath of office.

Every republican pardons the felons who went before. Bush will be the first to pardon himself.

He needs to suffer the consequences of the actions he took to put this country on the brink of oblivion--along with his minions, including and especially Dick Cheney.

WHO HAS NOT BEEN CHARGED WITH A CRIME!

makes me wanna hollah and shake muh fist at the sky

Nixon being one example.

as i can snap my fingers

NO PARDONS FOR BUSH & PALS

Really this idea that Bush will be hauled in front
of the Hague and tried for crimes against humanity
is so naive that it beggars belief.

Feel fortunate that Obama has brought an end to the
Christian Fundamentalist/Neo Conservative revolution.

For the time being anyway.

spot on. there is some seriously naive stuff being said, and when a person questions the likelihood of the ideas being expressed it pretty quickly turns to hostility, as if pointing out what is real makes one responsible for having placed those unpleasant limits on reality.

some want to stifle them with insults.

I see the effort as productive and your comments unproductive.

Neo-fascism is America must be stamped out once and for all, otherwise it'll rear its ugly head in America once again within 15-20 years.

Not that he'll need to. There will be no investigations of Bush Cheney on anybody's table, and that's just the way it is. Sucks big time. If anybody wants to know why, ask me.

Why they persecuted President Clinton restlessly, and made it very difficult for him to to be effective?

Because Clinton stopped the investigations into Bush Sr.'s illegal activities.

So did the Republicons who did all that illegal activity stand down, wiped their brows, and say to themselves thank God we dodged that bullet?

No, they turned on Clinton thinking they were invincible. They gave each other high fives and went on attacking Clinton.

If Obama does not investigate W's criminal actions and takes at least some of the major players into court, he will have them hounding him, just like they hounded Clinton. If Obama doesn't want to have to deal with 8 years of false prosecution by the like of Newt and Rove, then he better investigate these criminals.

They wont go quietly into the good night. The pardons and failures to complete investigations have made these criminals stronger. Ignoring them will make you the their target.

They will try to destroy Obama. I think he should prosecute them... Lets see who is AG is first that will send a strong signal to us to see if anyone will be held accountable.

It is definitely possible for a president to pardon someone for offenses for which they have not yet been convicted.

Nixon.

:eyes:

do not require convictions. Think of Nixon.

-------------

Vice President Gerald R. Ford succeeded him and a month later granted Nixon a full pardon for any crimes he might have committed while President. :eyes: The chicken shit Nixon resigned the presidency and avoided the likely prospect of losing the impeachment vote in the full House and a subsequent trial in the Senate. But the House Judiciary Committee, for all intent and purposes, convicted him.

--------------------

On Saturday, July 27, the House Judiciary Committee approved its first article of impeachment charging President Nixon with obstruction of justice. Six of the Committee's 17 Republicans joined all 21 Democrats in voting for the article. The following Monday the Committee approved its second article charging Nixon with abuse of power. The next day, the third and final article, contempt of Congress, was approved.

http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/impeachments/nixon.htm

Articles of Impeachment:

RESOLVED, That Richard M. Nixon, President of the United States, is impeached for high crimes and misdemeanors, and that the following articles of impeachment to be exhibited to the Senate:

ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT EXHIBITED BY THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IN THE NAME OF ITSELF AND OF ALL OF THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AGAINST RICHARD M. NIXON, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, IN MAINTENANCE AND SUPPORT OF ITS IMPEACHMENT AGAINST HIM FOR HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANOURS.

Article 1: Obstruction of Justice.

In his conduct of the office of the President of the United States, Richard M. Nixon, in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in violation of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, has prevented, obstructed, and impeded the administration of justice, in that: On June 17, 1972, and prior thereto, agents of the Committee for the Re-Election of the President committed unlawful entry of the headquarters of the Democratic National Committee in Washington, District of Columbia, for the purpose of securing political intelligence. Subsequent thereto, Richard M. Nixon, using the powers of his high office, engaged personally and through his subordinates and agents in a course of conduct or plan designed to delay, impede and obstruct investigations of such unlawful entry; to cover up, conceal and protect those responsible and to conceal the existence and scope of other unlawful covert activities. The means used to implement this course of conduct or plan have included one or more of the following:

(1) Making or causing to be made false or misleading statements to lawfully authorized investigative officers and employes of the United States.

(2) Withholding relevant and material evidence or information from lawfully authorized investigative officers and employes of the United States.

(3) Approving, condoning, acquiescing in, and counseling witnesses with respect to the giving of false or misleading statements to lawfully authorized investigative officers and employes of the United States and false or misleading testimony in duly instituted judicial and congressional proceedings.

(4) Interfering or endeavoring to interfere with the conduct of investigations by the Department of Justice of the United States, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the office of Watergate Special Prosecution Force and congressional committees.

(5) Approving, condoning, and acquiescing in, the surreptitious payments of substantial sums of money for the purpose of obtaining the silence or influencing the testimony of witnesses, potential witnesses or individuals who participated in such unlawful entry and other illegal activities.

(6) Endeavoring to misuse the Central Intelligence Agency, an agency of the United States.

(7) Disseminating information received from officers of the Department of Justice of the United States to subjects of investigations conducted by lawfully authorized investigative officers and employes of the United States for the purpose of aiding and assisting such subjects in their attempts to avoid criminal liability.

(8) Making false or misleading public statements for the purpose of deceiving the people of the United States into believing that a thorough and complete investigation has been conducted with respect to allegation of misconduct on the part of personnel of the Executive Branch of the United States and personnel of the Committee for the Re-Election of the President, and that there was no involvement of such personnel in such misconduct; or

(9) Endeavoring to cause prospective defendants, and individuals duly tried and convicted, to expect favored treatment and consideration in return for their silence or false testimony, or rewarding individuals for their silence or false testimony.

In all of this, Richard M. Nixon has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as President and subversive of constitutional government, to the great prejudice of the cause of law and justice and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States.

Wherefore Richard M. Nixon, by such conduct, warrants impeachment and trial, and removal from office.

(Approved by a vote of 27-11 by the House Judiciary Committee on Saturday, July 27, 1974.)

Article 2: Abuse of Power.

Using the powers of the office of President of the United States, Richard M. Nixon, in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in disregard of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, has repeatedly engaged in conduct violating the constitutional rights of citizens, imparting the due and proper administration of justice and the conduct of lawful inquiries, or contravening the laws governing agencies of the executive branch and the purposes of these agencies.

This conduct has included one or more of the following:

(1) He has, acting personally and through his subordinated and agents, endeavored to obtain from the Internal Revenue Service, in violation of the constitutional rights of citizens, confidential information contained in income tax returns for purposes not authorized by law, and to cause, in violation of the constitutional rights of citizens, income tax audits or other income tax investigation to be initiated or conducted in a discriminatory manner.

(2) He misused the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Secret Service, and other executive personnel, in violation or disregard of the constitutional rights of citizens, by directing or authorizing such agencies or personnel to conduct or continue electronic surveillance or other investigations for purposes unrelated to national security, the enforcement of laws, or any other lawful function of his office; he did direct, authorize, or permit the use of information obtained thereby for purposes unrelated to national security, the enforcement of laws, or any other lawful function of his office; and he did direct the concealment of certain records made by the Federal Bureau of Investigation of electronic surveillance.

(3) He has, acting personally and through his subordinates and agents, in violation or disregard of the constitutional rights of citizens, authorized and permitted to be maintained a secret investigative unit within the office of the President, financed in part with money derived from campaign contributions to him, which unlawfully utilized the resources of the Central Intelligence Agency, engaged in covert and unlawful activities, and attempted to prejudice the constitutional right of an accused to a fair trial.

(4) He has failed to take care that the laws were faithfully executed by failing to act when he knew or had reason to know that his close subordinates endeavored to impede and frustrate lawful inquiries by duly constituted executive; judicial and legislative entities concerning the unlawful entry into the headquarters of the Democratic National Committee, and the cover-up thereof, and concerning other unlawful activities including those relating to the confirmation of Richard Kleindienst as attorney general of the United States, the electronic surveillance of private citizens, the break-in into the office of Dr. Lewis Fielding, and the campaign financing practices of the Committee to Re-elect the President.

(5) In disregard of the rule of law: he knowingly misused the executive power by interfering with agencies of the executive branch: including the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Criminal Division and the Office of Watergate Special Prosecution Force of the Department of Justice, in violation of his duty to take care that the laws by faithfully executed.

In all of this, Richard M. Nixon has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as President and subversive of constitutional government, to the great prejudice of the cause of law and justice and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States.

Wherefore Richard M. Nixon, by such conduct, warrants impeachment and trial, and removal from office.

(Approved 28-10 by the House Judiciary Committee on Monday, July 29, 1974.)

Article 3: Contempt of Congress.

In his conduct of the office of President of the United States, Richard M. Nixon, contrary to his oath faithfully to execute the office of the President of the United States, and to the best of his ability preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in violation of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, had failed without lawful cause or excuse, to produce papers and things as directed by duly authorized subpoenas issued by the Committee on the Judiciary of the House of Representatives, on April 11, 1974, May 15, 1974, May 30, 1974, and June 24, 1974, and willfully disobeyed such subpoenas. The subpoenaed papers and things were deemed necessary by the Committee in order to resolve by direct evidence fundamental, factual questions relating to Presidential direction, knowledge or approval of actions demonstrated by other evidence to be substantial grounds for impeachment of the President. In refusing to produce these papers and things, Richard M. Nixon, substituting his judgement as to what materials were necessary for the inquiry, interposed the powers of the Presidency against the lawful subpoenas of the House of Representatives, thereby assuming to himself functions and judgments necessary to the exercise of the sole power of impeachment vested by Constitution in the House of Representatives.

In all this, Richard M. Nixon has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as President and subversive of constitutional government, to the great prejudice of the cause of law and justice, and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States.

Wherefore, Richard M. Nixon, by such conduct, warrants impeachment and trial and removal from office.

(Approved 21-17 by the House Judiciary Committee on Tuesday, July 30, 1974.)

I'm surprised that anyone would be under the impression that Nixon was ever convicted. The House was preparing to impeach him. The Senate had never even made preparations to hear the trial. Nixon was never convicted of a single crime or of an abuse of the power of office.

Perhaps you should read any one of the hundreds of books and articles about this era. John Nichols' "The Genius of Impeachment" might be a fun read for you.

It's no Obama who is going to pardon Bush. If Bush gets pardoned, he will have pardoned himself. And that's something over which Obama has no control.

that George W. Bush would be prosecuted for his crimes in office is in the manner that Vincent Bugliosi has outlined in his recent book. That would be by a state attorney or a county prosecutor. It remains a possibility. In such a case, a pardon from the President is not a factor.

though, would the state attorney be able to compel testimony from Bush's minions if Bush pardons them all on 1/19/09?

In fact, more so.

should be prosecuted. Except, I expect them to be pardoned.How many in Gov. have ever been held to account ? Think about it.

It's one thing to break in and lie about it. It is quite another to have killed thousands of people, including our own, decimated our constitution, taken our freedoms, and etc. Evil must be dealt with and the only resolve we have left is punishment. I would prefer convictions and public hanging.

You need to start with the lower level people (not the majority of civil servants - people who were politically "in charge").

You need to get them to divulge, in secret, what they know, in exchange for some immunity. You need to build a case and get people to turn. This is how it's best done.

But, it takes time and money.

we owe it to our country and the next generation to clean up our mess. Financially, culturally, and in government.

We were warned by our Founding Fathers of abuse of power and bidden and empowered to prevent and eliminate it. America has been subverted, things done in our name that have killed many including our own citizens, rights ignored, laws broken.

No, we must not rest. Freedom requires eternal vigilance. And part of that is removing and punishing those responsible to better prevent others in the future. Anything less would be truly Un-American.

and use the same old bullshit reason.

:mad:

Of course, Bush is brazen enough and to do it as his last official act.

I think our new President, the only President we've had in eight years who was actually elected to the office, has too much respect for the law and the rule of law to pardon this dangerous little miscreant. Further, I'm sure Obama knows full well that pardoning Bush would be a poor message to send to the people of this nation who voted him into office on the promise of change and to the international community who now looks to him to bring the kind of change to America that is necessary for this nation to once again be respected as a truly great democracy.

There doesn't. The obvious example being Nixon.

Happy karma, George.

Investigations should be under way to find out if Bush committed war crimes.

I want to see the criminals held accountable but I just don't see it happening, if for no other reason than shrub will just pardon up. I almost favor it because I believe the truth will never even remotely come out as long as BushCo. can be made to pay the piper. Exposing all this filth to the light of day has more value to the country than attempting to punish anyone.

But maybe an International Tribunal could?

Like The International Tribunal for the Prosecution of Persons Responsible for Serious Violations of International Humanitarian Law Committed in the Territory of the Former Yugoslavia

(Replace Yugoslavia with Iraq, Afghanistan and the U.S as well)

It sounds like Kucinich's articles of impeachment list plus some other crimes:


Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 1949

The International Tribunal shall have the power to prosecute persons committing or ordering to be committed grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, namely the following acts against persons or property protected under the provisions of the relevant Geneva Convention:

(a) willful killing;
(b) torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments;
(c) willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health;
(d) extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly;
(e) compelling a prisoner of war or a civilian to serve in the forces of a hostile power;
(f) willfully depriving a prisoner of war or a civilian of the rights of fair and regular trial;
(g) unlawful deportation or transfer or unlawful confinement of a civilian;
(h) taking civilians as hostages.

Article 3
Violations of the laws or customs of war

The International Tribunal shall have the power to prosecute persons violating the laws or customs of war. Such violations shall include, but not be limited to:

(a) employment of poisonous weapons or other weapons calculated to cause unnecessary suffering;
(b) wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity;
(c) attack, or bombardment, by whatever means, of undefended towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings;
(d) seizure of, destruction or willful damage done to institutions dedicated to religion, charity and education, the arts and sciences, historic monuments and works of art and science;
(e) plunder of public or private property

----
http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/icty/statute.html


There's certainly something that can be done !

Should it come to be, do count me in. I'm feeling a little RobesPierre like right now.

Oops.

:blush:

Time for Jr. to walk the plank.

But I'll kick it.

let's see if he pardons himself on the way out the door.

Don't think he'd do it anyway(I'm guessing Lil' Dubbikins might let Cheney be pres for the last 10 minutes so HE could issue the pardon).

Obama taught Constitutional law maybe seeing the real crimes committed by Bush he will not be able to have a clear conscience about letting him get away with it.

Obama doesn't get to pardon anyone until the END of his term!!!! If there is no action to convict Bush in the next eight years, then a pardon won't be needed. It's all up to congress.

Although there's virtually no chance it will happen, the best we could hope for is a preemptive pardon of Bush. I don't expect we'll ever see actual prosecutions, but with the simple stroke of a pen, Obama could effectively "condemn" Bush as a criminal.